Damn It, ZOS! Again With This HM Crap!?

DivineFirstYOLO

Guarlet wrote: »

Just reading this post made me rolls my eyes so hard. (And no, I personally am still quite far from completing Vet HMs, and don't have any of the trial skins.)

So, there shouldn't be a cool reward for players who complete incredibly difficult content to work towards? OK.

They deserve it for putting in the work.

And this is just a cosmetic skin, man. How much madder would you be if it was an OP piece of equipment instead? Yeah, I thought so. It's fine as it is.

completely agree, i for myself also have not cleared vAS+2 yet, but.. @OP: how about you get a group for yourself and try progressing? every of the good groups had to progress.. its a long journey.. its painful. I know this is not 100% an answer to what you were complaining about (skin behind HM only), but in some way it is.

Also.. did anyone complain about scalecaller HM? you also have to do the HM there to get the skin.

VyersReaver

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

to keep it special ?

This is why ZOS is losing people to: WoW, Tera, Overwatch, Fortnite, and other games as of lately. MMO or not. And will continue to do so. It’s not even a matter of “omg the sky is falling”. It’s a matter of people getting fed up with the nonsense occurring time after time.

There is no way that you can look at the current state of PvE, and assume that things are healthy. Leaderboards not being filled like they used to. Skin runs no longer being frowned upon, and becoming an acceptable means of acquiring completes. Trial guilds falling apart and disbanding. Elitism at an all time high. And so on.

But again, to keep things special. Yeah...?

WoW has its fair share of elitist ***, so don't give me that.

MLGProPlayer

Do we have a screenshot of the skin?

But in any case, it's just a skin. It's supposed to be exclusive.

Voxicity

Imo the skin should be earnt through Vet and titles through HM. But HM should also have more cosmetic rewards that titles. Costumes, hats, personalities or something. But both the top players and the not so top players need something to strive for in order to show off

HJSmith24

I personally can't agree with this thread, there needs to be something to show for being able to complete the hardest content available. Making it something that is entirely cosmetic, so a skin, is the right way to go for me. Yes you get perfected gear, but (with the exception of the asylum destruction staff) the differences are very minimal, so I think its perfectly fine the way it is.

However, with regards to it being a 'mini-trial', I agree it would be nice to see another proper trial like MoL or HoF.

Kirameku

Simply because there is absolutely no point for hardcore guilds (if they still exist) to complete this content again and again. Yes there are guilds doing trials for score, but nowadays there are like less than 10 of them? Having a unique reward for hm will bring more ppl to it. For hardcore raiders it may be another motivation - I left this game after I've done most raid achievements year ago because there were no interest to play.
You can always buy AS HM polymorph in guildstore though

WuffyCerulei

I feel there wouldn't be much worth to a skin if a lot of people can wear it. It would just be a way to cover vampirism instead of showing that someone can complete hard content.

SirAxen

Why wouldn't clearing some of the harder content in the game give you an exclusive this or that?

Meld777

@Ch4mpTW I disagree with you on many levels.

1. A skin does not make a combat/competition-relevant difference. It does not increase your DPS or survivability (other than Perfected weapons for example, but those can be acquired outside of HM, and the difference between Normal and Perfected can't even be measured in actual DPS tests).

2. There is a huge choice in skins, body tattoos, clothings... I don't understand the skin obsession. Personally, I prefer the Vampire "skin". And the vAS HM skin looks way too shiny and unnatural for my taste. Why would anyone quit the game over a freakin' skin? I'd also like the red color from killing 1000 people in Battlegrounds, but I prefer PvE. I am not going to quit because I can't get this color by picking up flowers. This game has so much awesome content to offer. If you really, really, REALLY want it, there are ways to get it. And yes, if you don't want to invest the time to become good enough, you can spend that time to make gold and buy it, which leads me to the next point...

3. Gold-wise, raiders are screwed in ESO. Some people like roleplaying, others like PvP, others like raiding. And those that like raiding are also the ones doing lots of theorycrafting to optimize their team play. This costs a lot of gold! The majority of 5-set bonuses can only be judged on legendary quality. That times 12 people in all kinds of different combinations... where would this gold come from? And no, you can't judge everything based on a dummy. You need to test those combos in your raid. When vMoL came out, raiders could sell golden MoL jewelry. Nowadays, with everything being BoP, even with plunders, it's almost impossible to just sustain potion and food costs. That's why experienced raiders do carry runs, because there is no alternative for them to make money by doing what they love. They don't want to carry you. They wanna raid.

4. You can't compare vMoL to vAS. We completed vAS with a zone pug (we = my girlfriend and I, both DDs) the moment it launched. It took Hodor over a month of 6-hour-long daily practice sessions to complete vMoL. The first vMoL HM was completed for the first time half a year after it launched, by Beyond Infinity. Then one month later by Hodor. Then one month later by my raid back then. vAS HM, however, was completed a week after its launch. It's not that much of a challenge. At all. TONS of people are able to complete it. Heck, I even joined a group that was looking for a Tank and 2 DDs in Craglorn for vAS HM the other day. And we completed it after 1 wipe.

5. vMA is not a good measure (anymore)! There are many Flawless Conquerors nowadays that lack the necessary skill for vAS HM or vMoL HM or... any other somewhat challenging content that involves mechanics. The power creep completely ruined vMA. It used to teach you lots of mechanics. Flawless Conqueror in 2015 meant they had flawlessly executed all vMA mechanics. Flawless Conqueror in 2018 means they took Alcast's build, practiced it on a dummy to pull very high dps, then used the high dps to skip all vMA mechanics. That dps won't help you in vAS HM. You need to be able to perfectly execute mechanics.

6. For what it's worth, make your own raid! I just did. My old raid group (Aquila) has been dead for long. I don't stream, I don't post builds, I just play the game. People don't know me. When I want to join (insert tough content), people ask me if I have done it before. But I really want the Perfect Purification achievement (vAS HM + No Death + Speedrun in one go). So I took the initiative and made a group. Took me just 3 days of advertising to get almost 20 people to choose from. And those are way higher requirements than the ones to just complete it. If you messaged me and said, "Hi, I'm a mag NB, I know what I'm doing, I feel very comfortable with all vAS HM mechanics while having the maximum dps my char allows me to have, and I'd like to join.", you'd be in as well. Though, I think you're on NA, we're on EU. What I'm saying is, no one is preventing you from making your own group of your own skill level.

7. There are other fun things to do that will make you a better player. Even since the first DLCs came out, my gf and I liked to queue for "random vet DLC". We are both DDs. And that's how we spend most of our time in ESO nowadays. We like teaching new players the DLCs and their HMs. We prefer not to run with a healer, as it motivates to slack. Tank is fine, but not necessary, either. The only HM we haven't managed to complete with a pug and without a tank yet is vFL. In zone and in Late Night Dungeoneers, we offer random (low CP/unexp) people of any class/role DLC HM completions of their choice. Then when we go back to vAS HM, with Healers, Tanks, raid buffs - it doesn't seem as hard.

Fun fact, the people that wanted to join my Saturday group who I didn't know that well or wasn't sure of, I took to a 3-man vFH HM (no healer, no tank). It's the perfect dungeon to see a DD's situational awareness: Do they dodge the boss's heavy attack? Do they stand in stupid? Do they run like headless chickens with aggro or position the mobs on our AoEs?

And none of that is needed to complete a skin run. You don't need to have done vAS HM to get into a group for vAS HM. If you can say confidently that you won't stand in stupid, will kite successfully even if Llothis blasts you, and maybe even know how and when to interrupt him, people will take you. I know I would.

Tasear

To me it's more rewarding doing four man dlc content, well besides mazztum so many ..well you know.

I admire nercomancer skill prestige other any of those skins more. I know that you had be good to get them.

You make more gold doing dlc dungeons besides imperial city ones only like 8.4k then in trials.

People are less toxic in dungeons then trials. It feels okay to fail and learn. It's also okay to try new ways to do content.

Let us not forget dungeon sets are stronger for most part then trial ones.

There's also some trials but idk why would you like trials over dungeons?

Just some thoughts, I do enjoy trials but not as much as dungeons.

Doctordarkspawn

Voxicity wrote: »

Imo the skin should be earnt through Vet and titles through HM. But HM should also have more cosmetic rewards that titles. Costumes, hats, personalities or something. But both the top players and the not so top players need something to strive for in order to show off

Right, because I care enough about a cosmetic skin I wont wear half the time to sink thousands of gold, hours of time all for a best case senario stretch of about a few hours.

Yeahno, not my cup of tea. It's really just for the new players with a inferiority complex to display their dedication to something.

Thing is, if that's the aim...well couldn't you just do like a momento for them to spam?

JesQu

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

You once again locked a trial skin behind a hard mode clear. Why? Why tf do you keep doing this? As is only a tiny fraction of your player base can beat VAS HM+2, which results in people selling skin runs. Something which ultimately should not exist in a game to begin with. And even after we told you about how we found this practice unhealthy to the game, you go and do it again!?

Do you NOT have the data which shows how many can legitimately beat VAS+2 across all platforms? Why not give the skin to people who can beat it on veteran, like VMoL? Why this HM bs? Why!?

And before all of the Top 1% come scrambling in to defend this crap, no. I don’t care what you have to say. More than the 1% of the PvE player base wants to be rewarded handsomely for dreading through these meat shield bosses, with cheesy mechanics and obnoxiously high HP. Smfh. Not everyone wants to pay someone for a skin clear (I’ve yet to pay for a carry, and never will). How as a developer do you even sit back comfortably with that? Do you not even see just how much the trial side of PvE is dying? And across all platforms? Or again, do you just not care?

inb4 this thread gets locked for some vague reason, and I get yet another message and or email how I broke some obscure rule that was up to mods discretion.

Agree completely.

kikkehs wrote: »

to keep it special ?

Then make a title or something instead like flawless conqueror.

Horowonnoe

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

If you think ESO takes as much skill as any of the games I’ve listed off, I’d hate to tell you this... But, you have a harsh awakening waiting for you once ESO closes its doors; or you ever choose to venture out.

Matter of a fact, let’s list ALL things that require you to be successful in end-game PvE in ESO:
- Animation cancelling.
- Potions.
- Knowing the right people.
- Copying and pasting the same regurgitated builds patch after patch, and following the “meta”.
- Using macros.
- How much lag you have (or don’t have).
- If things don’t glitch out, or freeze.
- Using C.E.
- Having a DPS over 30k (unless a healer or tank).
- Being able to exploit glitches or errors that enemy NPC’s may have (e.g. how many months was VHRC and VSO cheese???).

@Ch4mpTW So let's see, you said:
Matter of a fact, let’s list ALL things that require you to be successful in end-game PvE in ESO:
- Animation cancelling. - Well nobody really "animation cancels". You just light attack weave. Its part of the game. Roll with it.
- Potions. - Yes. Easy to obtain. Every guild trader in game has them or make your own.
- Knowing the right people. - Dont be a salty boi and the "right" people are ez to get to know
- Copying and pasting the same regurgitated builds patch after patch, and following the “meta”. - Well some of us actually make these same regurgitated builds. *looks around* If you like to copy and paste thats entirely on you.
- Using macros. - Like LOL? ummm... idk about that one there, buddy.
- How much lag you have (or don’t have). - True. And an unfortunate part of the game, however there are many players from AUS or ocenanic playbase that are very very good, despite the lag/ping/whatever .
- If things don’t glitch out, or freeze.
- Using C.E. - LOL again.
- Having a DPS over 30k (unless a healer or tank). - That is very easy to achieve. I am happy to personally train you if you are on PC/NA
- Being able to exploit glitches or errors that enemy NPC’s may have (e.g. how many months was VHRC and VSO cheese???). - according to the devs, vHRC is not "cheese". And vso - lol good luck.

Kalante

I use the recruit title ironically. I think it's hilarious. Meanwhile people are venting about their elitist skins that don't mean anything in pvp if you don't got the spice.

Alcast

If you are truly interested in raiding with a 12 man group twice a week, you will get hardmode down after a while. It is difficult, but not impossible.

I also find it ironically that you keep creating those kind of threads even tho:

Weren't you the dude that complained about vmol progression groups because skin is locked behind vmol trial and then 1 month later bragged about that you finally got the skin?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317213/vmol-has-ruined-ps4s-pve-scene/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/318515/ive-completed-vmol-finally
yes that was you.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

I finally earned my VMoL skin, after 18 hours and tons upon tons of progression groups...

And in the process, what did I get? Well... I got into an argument with my ex-guild co-owner, and ended-up voluntarily leaving the guild. I got insulted and harshly disrespected by someone who I thought was like a brother to me for years. And well... I made a TON of new friends and contacts, who offered to farm trials with me and do leaderboard runs with me. I also joined 3 different guilds that do end-game content, and linked-up with a lot of top players on NA-PS4. And had a lot of things explained to me, that I had misconceptions about. And most importantly, I linked-up with an old buddy of mine who actually made all this possible aka @Mortehl .

So was it worth it in the end...? Yes. Yes it was. I'd go through all of the bs and nonsense again if I had to.

And now I sit here, wondering why I even bother to reply to threads like this....

Tsar_Gekkou

They should give skins for vet clears, and a polymorph/title/etc. for HM clears.

Turelus

In the words of ZOS_RichLambert and ZOS_Finn... Git Gud.

https://twitter.com/Sigtric/status/983742982624104448

Kimundi

Usually I never post around here, but really... This is an MMO, there's skills in there. Of course end game players should expect some kind of exclusive rewards!

I started a year ago in a social guild, got hooked on the game. I invested a lot of time, research... played countless pug dungeons as a healer to build muscle memory and adaptability. Farmed SPC for hours in pug groups before Transmut arrived.

With dedication, I met bigger guilds, got into big PvE guild. Invested myself in those guilds,; ran open Trials, trained, learned. Finally got part of a core group and now I'm checking my bucket list one Trials at a time. One day I'll do vAS+2 and I'll happy I got there. And in the meantime, I don't feel like I'm owed any cosmetic item.

The people that get them "easily" are also the ones helping the game a LOT: training new people, creating builds, trials guides, giving advice, streaming, making videos... They invested time in it, they deserve it.

You're also using TERA as an example: I used to play it at high level a few years ago. Never heard anyone complain only FIVE people every week were able to unlock the Crucible of Flame mount. And sometimes, the same group would rank #1 for weeks in a row, which was my case. It was our rewards for being the best PvE group in CoF.

munster1404

waitwhat wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Umm, so it may interest you to know that the vMoL skin isn't locked behind a hardmode, and I still care about getting it very much, as do hundreds of others who pull their numbers, but don't have the right political connections.

That's a good example, actually. When vMoL was actually super hard -- effectively hard mode -- before the incredible power creep that followed Thieves Guild, that skin had a lot of value. It was interesting because it was distinctive and exclusive. When a player had it, it usually meant something. Players who wore it, generally, could feel proud of their accomplishments.

Now they're a dime a dozen. Yawn.

I don't mind that an old skin is easy to get because of power creep, but don't make the new ones so trivial to get. If you want the highly visible reward given to the best players, become one of the best players.

@zyk

You're completely wrong.

1. It's not easy to get legitimately. I finally hit 37k today on a 6mil with hundings and war machine and the warrior, but my guilds that are doing progressions require 40k on a 6mil without any penetration.
2. vMoL is plenty hard, it's just that the worst enemies in there are other people who don't take it seriously. Doesn't make it any less difficult.
3. After over a year of progressions, that skin means a huge amount to me, and your callous disregard for how hard myself and others like me have to work annihilates any shred of credibility you could possibly have had.

I get it, you have the skin, so you don't care, and you don't think it's hard. Leave your bubble and help out a few progressions. You'll see how wrong you are.

Woah, 40K on a 6 mil dummy. I can't even hit 18K.

Dasovaruilos

I'm going to respectfully disagree here.

I think the game needs more incentives for the harder content, not less. End game community is dwindling since Morrowind, it needs to pick back up and I think the amount of new trials lately shows ZOS is trying. Though I'm not the biggest fan of the "mini-trial" concept, I think it is better to have a couple of mini-trials per year than one full trial every 2 years.

I've beaten all Craglorn Hard Modes but stopped in Maw (because it was broken for half a year, then when they fixed it half my guild quit the game), but one thing that I didn't like was that not a single Craglorn HM had anything to show for it... Not a title, not a skin, nothing.

I honestly really, really like the new concept of the trials and dungeons in terms of rewards and titles. I actually think ZOS should retrofit those for other dungeons and trials, specially all the new titles for No Death, Speed Run, Hard Mode and doing all of them at the same time to all the base content.

I bet it would give some life and competition back to raiding guilds.

ZOS is already putting "generic" skins and polymorphs from trials on the Crown Store... I can bet that we will soon see a repainted skin from those places sold for Crowns. And that makes me sad.

In ESO, skins used to be the "special mounts" people used to farm in other games. I really wished ZOS would keep them that way, behind hard DLC dungeon achievments and trials. And that is coming from a mostly intermediate player that has not had the chance to get Maw and newer trial skins yet.

Wayshuba

As someone who doesn't currently have any of the skins but is working towards them I think they should stay where they are.

MMOs are always about showing off with character looks. Titles don't mean jack outside of PvP, and house furnishings aren't able to really be displayed in public. Skins, some motifs and personalities are however. Every MMO I've played has always been about dressing up your digital dollies.

The same with some weapons (Master, Maelstorm, Asylum) and armor sets being behind more difficult content. And with Jeweler now coming into the game with the ability to upgrade jewelry, these cosmetic desirables become more important as there is no need to run Vet Trials for purple and gold jewelry soon.

There is a point to having some things locked behind HM Vet content and difficult or time-intensive achievements. Otherwise why would anyone want to take that content on? It is goal to work towards for people that have been developing their characters and game skills for a while.

My thoughts are leave it as is. Some things should take some effort in MMOs to acquire otherwise you marginalize the hardest content from having any reason to clear it.

Mureel

Tandor wrote: »

I wouldn't know as I don't do trials, but are you saying that the hardest content rewards the best gear? Is that the complaint?

He's talking about the cosmetics.

Kalgert

I consider the whole concept of trials (And in turn, hard PvE) to be complete and utter undergarments.

I have a strong feeling that for you to really get in to the meat of the end-game, you have to more or less condition yourself with several guides and on top of that, multiple sets of gear that give the "Best in Slot" effect, and then you also have to content with what character you are playing for the specific playstyle (And it goes on and on before you are considered at an acceptable state to warrant an invite to Veteran Dungeons or in to Trials).

Frankly I consider the gearing process to be an absolute failure, when you find out that to get anywhere close to end-game, you have several other layers of preparation just to get to there (As in: Getting good gear is not enough, you need several different pieces of gear sets just to scratch the surface of PvE endgame)

At that point, the "gitting gut" phrase falls on it's face because you're reliant on your gear and stamina as opposed to your abilities and stamina. I can consider myself ti be a fairly good player, denied entry because of gear requirements. And I don't really feel like playing a tank anytime I want to do dungeons and stuff (Even then you're reliant on getting special sets of gear as opposed to the rest)

Also, the elitism in this thread of "Work for it ***!" Or "This is 100% Easy, Git gut scrib" makes me feel ill. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

Valencer

All this effort just to rant about a cosmetic skin you cant easily unlock. If you put even a fraction of that effort into finding a decent group to progress with you'd already be well on your way to your first vAS+2 clear

Violynne

waitwhat wrote: »

I'd like to confirm as another first-hand witness that all of that is happening: the toxicity is the process of destroying a guild that was regularly selling vMoL clears; I had a friend get so fed-up with the game and the community that he gave his PSN account away a month after getting his vMoL skin because he hated end-game PVE so much; and I keep getting regular updates on my Discord servers about how people prefer ARK: Survival Evolved because they find it less toxic than ESO.

I'm not going to deny there are toxic players out there, because every multiplayer game has them.

But this term "toxic" is being thrown out as an insult to those 1% players, as though they're responsible for the problems.

They're not. From my experience, it's the 99%.

Players who enter a dungeon without headset (console), play as a solo adventurer (because they can't hear what the leader is telling them to do), in it for the loot, and just making it horrendous for the experience are the worst.

The 1% aren't elitists. They just get sick and tired of people "in it for the loot" without caring about getting through the dungeon as best as the group can.

I saw this first hand and it's horrible. The "PUG" mentality is far, far more toxic than the "elitist 1%".

Ironic, given it was the "1%" who was teaching me about my first group event.

The PUGs in this game are far more toxic.

ZoS has finally given those who care about a group dynamic a reason to play as a group dynamic, and I'm no longer surprised the PUG mentality is the one complaining about it.

So far, these "elitists" people keep whining about have:
-Helped me learn to play
-Crafted gear with attributes I needed without charging
-Helped walk me through my first group event
-Handed me gobs of seige freebies
-Have been courteous in group talk
-Offered a "Try again, we'll back you" rather than "Noob, GG" attitude when I failed the group

In short, I've never experienced this "toxicity" from the 1%.

Before I close, I'm not saying the entire 99% is toxic, but sadly, I'd venture to say over 50% are.

That... is a problem.

FakeFox

"I don’t care what you have to say" is always a great basis for discussion. But back to topic, leave us our progression and buy crownstore skins. You aren't entitled to achieve everything there is to offer.

Qbiken

I´ve nothing against rewards being locked behind difficult content (like skins). I personally didn´t like the vAS+2 design (stacking 1 million 1 shot mechanics on top of each other, while having a constant DPS race to prevent mini-bosses from enraging) but the reward from completing vAS is basically 0. Aside from the imperfected weapon in a higher quality, vAS is no difference from nAS in terms of rewards (sure you get a title but still). The distribution of rewards could´ve been done better in Asylum.

I haven´t seen the new trial, but hopefully it´s not too many enrage-timing mechanics and 1 shoot mechanics as in vAS.

ZeroXFF

Qbiken wrote: »

I´ve nothing against rewards being locked behind difficult content (like skins). I personally didn´t like the vAS+2 design (stacking 1 million 1 shot mechanics on top of each other, while having a constant DPS race to prevent mini-bosses from enraging) but the reward from completing vAS is basically 0. Aside from the imperfected weapon in a higher quality, vAS is no difference from nAS in terms of rewards (sure you get a title but still). The distribution of rewards could´ve been done better in Asylum.

I haven´t seen the new trial, but hopefully it´s not too many enrage-timing mechanics and 1 shoot mechanics as in vAS.

This. I really like it how the rewards are handled in 4-man dungeons. Apply the same system to trials. Best gear in vet, and HM gives extra cosmetic rewards (skins, titles etc). Doing HM for me is it's own reward in the newer DLC dungeons, because saying you did SP hm means something.

Elloa

The point of having those special skins in game is to reward players that have excecuted succesfully the most difficult challenge of the game with something truely special to show off their achievement and have everyone recognise easily the achievement they accomplished.

It is a REWARD.

The point is not to create an item that will go to a lot of players.


I don't even understand how this is even being discussed. How do you want to reward those players instead? A super extra powerful weapon maybe?

SoLooney

if you cant earn a skin. then you dont deserve it. yea, vas plus 2 is very difficult content but its something top players can work for. god forbid there is difficult content most players cant complete, this game is catered to casuals anyways.

also, vas plus 0 is incredibly easy, olms is pretty much a joke without felms or llothis spitting out mechanics at you. there would be way too many silver surfers, it would just end up like the dromathra skin, too plentiful.
problem is, vmol snipers and glitchers didnt get perma banned like the vas snipers and cheaters