Damn It, ZOS! Again With This HM Crap!?

Paulington

There should be rewards for the hardest content, if you want the reward then put the effort in.

Otherwise, why would people like myself and @Woeler put all this effort in to do this content? Sure being first on the boards is nice, but there must be a tangible incentive. People don't want power locked behind the hardest trials (not really good for ESO's design), so why not something cosmetic?

Instead of saying how it's bad and that the devs are bad for doing this to you again, why not come up with a suggestion on a way to improve the current system, how could they reward people like us, whilst not annoying those that choose not to put the time in to complete this content?

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

This is the same dude who people consider is the “greatest” tank in all of ESO, and writes up builds and guides about tanking. Yep. Same dude. And yet, they behave like this regularly. I don’t even know the dude from a can of paint, but dude always is on that type of time. And it’s disgusting. And mind you, it’s not just with me he’s like that with. I’ve seen threads of him going at others like @Vaoh in the past, and a few other players.

In a sense, I’m happy dude gave that type of rude response. It’s just yet another example as to what I mean by how the top 1% truly believe. And mind you, I’m not singling him out as a lot of the 1% are like that. On PC and PS4. Some may choose to turn a blind eye, and others will call them out on their nonsense. It’s sad really. But check it. Being as he’s so e-famous, not a damn thing will happen to him. Ever. Period. He holds too much power in regards to the game from a PvE perspective, and has too many ties in regards to Reddit. So guess what? He gets a pass.

Edit: Now you understand why I treat and view the 1% as I do, and often don’t care in the slightest for what they have to say. Because most of them are just like that, if not worse. Just browse through these forums, and do a bit of research in-game about some of these dudes.

So you're aware, we run the subreddit on an entirely voluntary basis and it give us nothing over the average player. It just takes up a huge amount of our time and we do it so there is another place for discussion. It gives us no power nor stead in the game.

Nelson_Rebel

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

l.ys wrote: »

The fact of the matter is, there is no other motivation to do the hardmodes otherwise, without some kind of fun reward at the end. The skin offers a visible show of your accomplishments, or of your money. Either way, it is time invested in this game. I worked my ass off to get all my hardmodes thus far on my healer and dd toons, and god help me if they are going to dumb things down for people. There are some things in the world that people have to actually work for, sorry to break it to you

And as long as they keep doing that more people who arent the 1% will get better and better skins from the store

You dont get to have your cake and eat it too.

Your choice lol either way we win, and frankly I could care less. They'll sell all your "let me feel special" items in better format in a month or less

@Nelson_Rebel Damn, bruh. I see you too have switched-up too regarding PvE. Good memories I have of seeing you around Auridon, and having those excellent duels with you. Anytime you need a boost or plug in: GTA Online, Tera, or Overwatch hit me up. You’re on my friend’s list, and I got you bro. Whatever you need.

No worries.


I inderstand the frustration here

Ultimately the fault lies with the Trial designers at ZoS for not keeping to a consistent reward system and designers creating a toxic elitist exploiters galore community in the 1% who playtest everything, tell no one about exploits, abuse said exploits for months and tell everyone else to "git gud". lol


Example, For completing Vet Trials in craglorn they rewarded Titles, but no skins. The Hardmode trials for craglorn also had no real rewards.

Then comes Thieves guild and vMoL and now theirs a skin for completing vet, and a title for Hardmode. All the while the Trial was exploited for months by all the buddy buddy elite guilds before getting fixed.

Then the next two trials have the Skin locked behind hardmodes along with titles.

There is no consistent reward system for endgame content, and they keep uping the difficulty and mechanics by overloading the newer content with extra one-shot cheesy mechanics and more health bars and then put it even farther behind a Hardmode wall.


All this does is disincentivize other players from being able to join.

***Edited for typos

Dasovaruilos

Kalgert wrote: »

I consider the whole concept of trials (And in turn, hard PvE) to be complete and utter undergarments.

I have a strong feeling that for you to really get in to the meat of the end-game, you have to more or less condition yourself with several guides and on top of that, multiple sets of gear that give the "Best in Slot" effect, and then you also have to content with what character you are playing for the specific playstyle (And it goes on and on before you are considered at an acceptable state to warrant an invite to Veteran Dungeons or in to Trials).

Frankly I consider the gearing process to be an absolute failure, when you find out that to get anywhere close to end-game, you have several other layers of preparation just to get to there (As in: Getting good gear is not enough, you need several different pieces of gear sets just to scratch the surface of PvE endgame)

At that point, the "gitting gut" phrase falls on it's face because you're reliant on your gear and stamina as opposed to your abilities and stamina. I can consider myself ti be a fairly good player, denied entry because of gear requirements. And I don't really feel like playing a tank anytime I want to do dungeons and stuff (Even then you're reliant on getting special sets of gear as opposed to the rest)

Also, the elitism in this thread of "Work for it ***!" Or "This is 100% Easy, Git gut scrib" makes me feel ill. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.

I think this is one of the biggest myths of ESO currently and it is going to be even more so after Summerset. This and the actual importance of "perfect gear" on the DPS result.

You only need "multiple sets of specific gear" if you want to play at Hodor, Mechanically Challenged and other guilds' level. It definetly helps if you are after Tick-Tock Tormentor or Immortal Redeemer. But it is definetly not necessary for completing it.

We see those guilds doing trials, then Andy S, LHZ and others doing vMA in 25 minutes and think "we need that gear" first, instead of "I need to memorize the spawns and attacks just like they do".

The DPS required to complete those contents is MUCH LOWER than most people think. Because some guilds will ask for 40k solo dummy parses doesn't mean a group with 30-32k won't manage to complete it. It will take longer, it won't be as clean, but definetly can.

There are groups completing Maw right now with 200k less group DPS than the top groups.

Again, having the "perfect setup" helps, but the actually DPS/mathematical limit to actually complete the content is not as high as some people make it seem.

There are worlds of people not in the level of those top guilds/vMA/vDSA groups/players completing that very same content.

Ectheliontnacil

I agree with this. They shouldn't lock the reward everyone wants (skins) behind an achievement that is unobtainable for anyone who is not a hardcore pve player. Just give them a title for completing hardmode, I think that's incentive enough for the completionists.

A friend of mine told me he wanted to get the skin and I laughed at him. Not because he's bad at the game, which he isn't (max cp hardcore pvper and one of the best stamplars out there), but because I knew it would require him to switch his class and to work for months potentially to get recruited to the core team of a trials guild.

Personally I don't always have time for 3-4 weekly runs with a trial guild, so I don't think I'll ever get the skin. And I know a lot of players who have the same problem. Why lock most of the skins (which are the coolest cosmetic items) behind content that cannot be completed by the 99% of players who aren't into hardcore raiding. PvPers, Questers, Rpers and Casuals in general have no chance of ever getting these items (unless perhaps they buy runs, but vAS is ridiculously expensive still).

Ixtyr

God forbid they incentivize their new content.

reiverx

waitwhat wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lol... People thinking this type of crap is okay, and defending it. Yet, on PS4-NA more and more end-game guilds are becoming wastelands of elitism and toxicity. More and more end-game veterans are up and quitting to: Neverwinter, FF, and Tera. More and more people are taking things even more extreme, and actually selling their accounts for PSN cash. But again, people turning blind eyes and pretending like it’s all gravy. April of 2018, and how many people can even clear VAS+2 (without carry)? I’d be surprised if even 100 can.

I'd like to confirm as another first-hand witness that all of that is happening: the toxicity is the process of destroying a guild that was regularly selling vMoL clears; I had a friend get so fed-up with the game and the community that he gave his PSN account away a month after getting his vMoL skin because he hated end-game PVE so much; and I keep getting regular updates on my Discord servers about how people prefer ARK: Survival Evolved because they find it less toxic than ESO.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom This is a problem that does not have to exist.

This is true. The number of PS4 NA players who moved to ARK is staggering.

logarifmik

I don't care much. Those skins are ugly anyway.

Love Wizard

So you're saying that the most difficult PvE content in the game shouldn't reward you? I mean, not like they just didnt put the same skin that drops in vAS in the crownstore, just in a different color.

greylox

I think they should incentivize hard content with something worthwhile instead of a skin you won't be able to see unless you wear nothing or specifically look at someone's face.

MaxTM

Why wouldnt you award effort with something nice? I do get the beauty of just getting everything you ever wanted by snapping your fingers but let's face it. These things wontt make it outside your dreams.

And yep how is this not locked O_O

Fallen_Ray

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

to keep it special ?

This is why ZOS is losing people to: WoW, Tera, Overwatch, Fortnite, and other games as of lately. MMO or not. And will continue to do so. It’s not even a matter of “omg the sky is falling”. It’s a matter of people getting fed up with the nonsense occurring time after time.

There is no way that you can look at the current state of PvE, and assume that things are healthy. Leaderboards not being filled like they used to. Skin runs no longer being frowned upon, and becoming an acceptable means of acquiring completes. Trial guilds falling apart and disbanding. Elitism at an all time high. And so on.

But again, to keep things special. Yeah...?

@Ch4mpTW
They lost me to Tera, lol that combat man. Seriously I got tired of how this game combat works. It's like the OP said "bosses with cheesy one-hit-KO mechanics, big meat shields with insane HP" and ZO$ keeps tuning down damage skills and skill efectiveness all for the sake of the pvp community, they destroyed resources requiring you to spam heavy attacks 4 times to regain at least 60% magicka/stamina so you can keep on attacking/blocking/healing.

Instead of making different effects for each skill when on pvp, it's not that hard to add "IF Battle Spirit = 1 THEN apply skills effect effect effect" to add different effects and stop punishing PVE players and the elitism as you say so much SWEAT!!! I tell you sweaties are ruining online games.

To top it off reading the PST patch notes the changes made to some classes skills made me wanna puke all my insides. It's like they are doing the opposite of what players are asking just like Bungie did to Destiny.

The only think keeping this game alive is the originallity; NPC dialogue, interesting plot, good open world with stuff to do.

reiverx

Fallen_Ray wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

to keep it special ?

This is why ZOS is losing people to: WoW, Tera, Overwatch, Fortnite, and other games as of lately. MMO or not. And will continue to do so. It’s not even a matter of “omg the sky is falling”. It’s a matter of people getting fed up with the nonsense occurring time after time.

There is no way that you can look at the current state of PvE, and assume that things are healthy. Leaderboards not being filled like they used to. Skin runs no longer being frowned upon, and becoming an acceptable means of acquiring completes. Trial guilds falling apart and disbanding. Elitism at an all time high. And so on.

But again, to keep things special. Yeah...?

@Ch4mpTW
They lost me to Tera, lol that combat man. Seriously I got tired of how this game combat works. It's like the OP said "bosses with cheesy one-hit-KO mechanics, big meat shields with insane HP" and ZO$ keeps tuning down damage skills and skill efectiveness all for the sake of the pvp community, they destroyed resources requiring you to spam heavy attacks 4 times to regain at least 60% magicka/stamina so you can keep on attacking/blocking/healing.

Instead of making different effects for each skill when on pvp, it's not that hard to add "IF Battle Spirit = 1 THEN apply skills effect effect effect" to add different effects and stop punishing PVE players and the elitism as you say so much SWEAT!!! I tell you sweaties are ruining online games.

To top it off reading the PST patch notes the changes made to some classes skills made me wanna puke all my insides. It's like they are doing the opposite of what players are asking just like Bungie did to Destiny.

The only think keeping this game alive is the originallity; NPC dialogue, interesting plot, good open world with stuff to do.

The epic resource nerf had nothing to do with PVP.

Aebaradath

Waffennacht wrote: »

vMA should have a skin. That way solo players can have a skin.

I don't have a skin.

I also don't know 11 other players willing/capable of doing vet trials.

I had a hard enough time getting a group through vet scalecaller - I can't imagine doing that on HM.

Except vMA has the Maelstrom Baron polymorph already.

Vrienda

I'm sick of them adding things like this to content I know I'll never be able to do. The skill gap in this game is ridiculously wide, making these skins completely unobtainable for the majority.

Amun93

I love that they have the skin tied to a HM clear. ZOS has removed almost all incentives from HM trials now. Jewelry can be upgraded. Gear is bind on pick up and can not be sold. The new perfected sets are trash. Plunder is decent but I can make more money by farming motifs or selling stuff through traders. The skin is an actual incentive to put in the time and effort that is required to clear this content. I have already cleared Cloudrest on Vet. I do not feel like I deserve a skin for a couple hours worth of work on the first night of the PTS. If the skin is rewarded for vet, what reason do I have to progress for HM other than my own desire to clear the most difficult content?

klowdy1

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

You once again locked a trial skin behind a hard mode clear. Why? Why tf do you keep doing this? As is only a tiny fraction of your player base can beat VAS HM+2, which results in people selling skin runs. Something which ultimately should not exist in a game to begin with. And even after we told you about how we found this practice unhealthy to the game, you go and do it again!?

Do you NOT have the data which shows how many can legitimately beat VAS+2 across all platforms? Why not give the skin to people who can beat it on veteran, like VMoL? Why this HM bs? Why!?

And before all of the Top 1% come scrambling in to defend this crap, no. I don’t care what you have to say. More than the 1% of the PvE player base wants to be rewarded handsomely for dreading through these meat shield bosses, with cheesy mechanics and obnoxiously high HP. Smfh. Not everyone wants to pay someone for a skin clear (I’ve yet to pay for a carry, and never will). How as a developer do you even sit back comfortably with that? Do you not even see just how much the trial side of PvE is dying? And across all platforms? Or again, do you just not care?

inb4 this thread gets locked for some vague reason, and I get yet another message and or email how I broke some obscure rule that was up to mods discretion.

I don't agree selling runs is out of the ordinary in a world such as this. If Tamriel was the real world, there would definitely be "swords for hire" in the world, selling their skills to people unable to do things on their own. It sounds like the best of the best have a real job in this game, which helps (me) with immersion.

I do not, and have not raised ever in this game, in case you see me as part of that 1%. I just have absolutely no problem with selling runs, and actually do find a problem with taking that away from someone. It doesn't hurt anyone, and the cosmetic item is ZOS's to devalue if they want.

Harrdarrzarr

If you want it, work for it. If you don't want to work for it, you shouldn't get it.

ohhmydave

Hard mode deserves a special reward, who wants to see any old amateur running around with good skins? The fact that you think this is an issue shows that maybe you should be playing something that rewards you for doing nothing?

NewBlacksmurf

I'd agree that the hardest content should reward the best gear (not just top quality) however I don't agree that a skin should be locked behind the hardest content.

That's just my point of view tho.....funny cause I don't like any of the skins or polymorphs

Cage_Lizardman

I don't care about the skins, but I really wish the perfected staffs were available through some more reasonable means, since those are actually useful.

Huyen

In WoW WoD the last raid had a limited time mount as reward on heroic or mythical difficulties. Runs were sold there as well for thousands of gold (different economy). Content (and most rewards) should be avaible to all in eso as there is not an "I outlevel the content now so I can solo it" mechanic like WoW has for the stuff that has a 1% or less droprate. Keep in mind tho that WoW still has specific mount rewards for those who clear it on mythical, altho one can question the difficulty of the game in its current state.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed comments that were baiting/naming and shaming. These types of comments are a violation of our forum rules and only server to derail a thread. Since the thread is no longer on topic could not remain civil we have decided to close the thread. Thank you for your understanding.