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PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Nightblade Balance
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Murador178✭✭✭✭
PvP wise.
With potion cooldown glyphs, LA changes, shade changes, strife weave buff and staff changes Magnb is absolutely ridiculous.
Potion CD glyphs will be a bigger issue with argonians. So argonians are outclassing other races on multiple classes atm. Strife weave buff(i didnt make a mNB on the pts yet), what does it do? Dont ranged mNbs need to run more sustain now with the strife nerf?
@BohnT: how low does portion CD get there when its not bugged. Can we get near perma major vit/immoveable.Edited by Murador178 on April 28, 2018 10:39AM0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »Potion CD glyphs will be a bigger issue with argonians. So argonians are outclassing other races on multiple classes atm. Strife weave buff(i didnt make a mNB on the pts yet), what does it do? Dont ranged mNbs need to run more sustain now with the strife nerf?
@BohnT: how low does portion CD get there when its not bugged. Can we get near perma major vit/immoveable.Murador178 wrote: »Potion CD glyphs will be a bigger issue with argonians.Murador178 wrote: »...argonians...
Purge them all
I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yamenstein wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Yamenstein wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »If both morphs of strife will have increased cost, then their effectiveness should be increased respectively.
Funnel Health. should do less damage, but have a bigger heal. Also revert back to healing 2 friendly targets.
Swallow soul. should do increased damage, grants minor mending
To what extent? Matching force pulses tool tip damage would then become penetration, increased proc conditions vs ult generation, healing done and minor vitality. As far as ability budget goes, that would be lopsided and bring it back to the issue of why its cost is being changed in the first place.
Again, match the costs of both abilities, reduce that cost to around 2100 magicka base cost. Leave damage values as they are, change funnel to heal for more and deal less damage. And have it heal 2 targets (not guaranteeing the caster will always get the hot). Swallow soul is perfect as is right now and does not need a damage increase.
strife doesn't need to be brought in line with force pulse. force pulse is a weapon skill, strife is a class skill. A class skill should be more unique then a weapons skills that's available to everyone. we shouldn't be nerfing class skills because they may be better than weapons skills, class skills should be better than weapon skills period.
No not period you have a fundamentally flawed belief as to how abilities are weighted and budgeted in this game. No one from zos ever, since the inception of this game, has claimed class skills SHOULD be superior. That is something you came up with in your head.
Class skills, much like all the various analogous abilities in this game, should be unique to one another, not objectively superior to any other.
That is the reailty of the game, it is not an opinion.
because by balancing the nb's class skills to be in line with weapons skills you're actively harming the class. A NB's defenses/survivablity is it's superior resources, resource management and low cost skills it doesn't have insane burst heals, it's not that tanky and it doesn't have shield stacks it has none of these things, not innately. and it don't really need any of those things because it has it's resources and that is the identity of the class the way it's played and the uniqueness of it.
I don't care what class we're talking about, i don't want any of them to be cheapened like this.
You can't just look at class skills against other class skills. Otherwise they might as well remove all skill lines but the class ones!
If you want low cost skills then fine, Nerf the damage the skills can output then or remove the secondary affects or something. Something needs to be adjusted, whether it's the skill damage, utility, cost or even one of the passives that get triggered when using the skill.
Strife doesn't need to be adjusted is the thing. Strife is not what gives Magblades high DPS for DPS Force pulse is objectively better the heal is only good so long as you're spamming the ability the HoT itself is irrelevant and can easily be replaced with something else and better. as people have already said, it's low cost is why you use it over other abilities. it's not gonna get much use if the cost is increased.
Class skills should be more unique then Weapon skills, otherwise what's the point in having unique classes to begin with. not saying weapon skills have to suck but to balance class skills to be in line with weapon skills is just not a good idea. we'll end us with a lack of ingenuity in builds.
Strife will most certainly see use, what are you talking about lol... nb healers, solo builds and pvp setups will absolutely continue tonuse strife. One single build avenue for mag nbs will likely switch to FP.
Your last two entences also make a lick of sense. Each and every skill in this game is designed to function in some way unique. Class skills and weapon skills are equally unique in function, with class skills generally being reinforced themarically with said class. Whats the point of having unique classes? Maybe one small reason is thay scnearios where a class could provide a ranged 28m spell that heals instead of doing max damage. Enough with the cherry picking. Balancing weapon skills (all skills actually) under the same design philosophy is an absolutely critical thing to enforce and is an exceptional idea. Weapin skills, guild sjills world skills are not second rate fillers, they have never been and will continue not to be, they exist to flesh out build options and fill holes where class skills dont offer the desired niche for a particluar build.
I have 3 magblades one of them is a GO. i'm phasing out strife on all my builds.
that's really all i have say on it.
but lol NB healers
Im sorry? Do you find that humerous?
NB healers?, yeah. i mean it's fun to play a NB healer i've played around with it but in no world is a NB healers on the same level as Templar or Warden most groups are gonna be disappointed the NB is not DPSing. when i was playing around with it i got a lot of "oh good..... a nightblade healer, just what we need /sarcasm" XD
I do miss the old Funnel health tho, that was *** fun in both PvE and PvP.
But that just makes you part of the problem. Whats the point in any of the skill lines or abilities if you are going to say X class does one thing so others shouldn't. Just make DKs tanks, NBs stamina DPS, Sorcs magicka DPS and Templars healers. Kill wardens, we don't need any other classes because "lol wardens they can't do anything better than the other classes".
to be inventive in how you use them. i don't really want the devs to make it "easy" to play whatever role you want. possible but not easy.
the change to strife just makes magblades a sorc clone again.Edited by Lucky28 on April 28, 2018 11:27AMInvictus1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
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PvP wise.
With potion cooldown glyphs, LA changes, shade changes, strife weave buff and staff changes Magnb is absolutely ridiculous.
Well - maybe i didn´t find that too broken bc i main a sorc with runecage and that´s far more broken than mNB on pts imo
Aren´t potion glyphs still bugged?
Yes they are but i did the tests with 21 seconds cooldown and even then it was absolutely ridiculous.
Yeah sorc with rune cage is broken aswell but that doesn't give magnb a free pass0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Murador178 wrote: »
PvP wise.
With potion cooldown glyphs, LA changes, shade changes, strife weave buff and staff changes Magnb is absolutely ridiculous.
Potion CD glyphs will be a bigger issue with argonians. So argonians are outclassing other races on multiple classes atm. Strife weave buff(i didnt make a mNB on the pts yet), what does it do? Dont ranged mNbs need to run more sustain now with the strife nerf?
@BohnT: how low does portion CD get there when its not bugged. Can we get near perma major vit/immoveable.
21 seconds with bugfixed glyphs.
I made a post with the according math a week ago defenitly check it out.
The strife weaving changes makes strife weaving just as easy as FP or any other spammable.
As i changed from meele magnb to ranged with the patch i can go with less regen than on live as concealed weapons is so expensive.
My build can sustain stam and mag perfectly with 600 stam and 900 magregen (statsheet) and it's not even heavily theorycrafted or optimised.
Yeah argonian enhances the issue a lot but as all of my chars are argonians i hope they leave the potion passive alone and rather balance the potion glyphs (they are op on all other races aswell
) 0 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Murador178 wrote: »
PvP wise.
With potion cooldown glyphs, LA changes, shade changes, strife weave buff and staff changes Magnb is absolutely ridiculous.
Potion CD glyphs will be a bigger issue with argonians. So argonians are outclassing other races on multiple classes atm. Strife weave buff(i didnt make a mNB on the pts yet), what does it do? Dont ranged mNbs need to run more sustain now with the strife nerf?
@BohnT: how low does portion CD get there when its not bugged. Can we get near perma major vit/immoveable.
21 seconds with bugfixed glyphs.
I made a post with the according math a week ago defenitly check it out.
The strife weaving changes makes strife weaving just as easy as FP or any other spammable.
As i changed from meele magnb to ranged with the patch i can go with less regen than on live as concealed weapons is so expensive.
My build can sustain stam and mag perfectly with 600 stam and 900 magregen (statsheet) and it's not even heavily theorycrafted or optimised.
Yeah argonian enhances the issue a lot but as all of my chars are argonians i hope they leave the potion passive alone and rather balance the potion glyphs (they are op on all other races aswell )
Why would I give up all that damage to run potion glyphs though. Strife really isn't a big deal to me either because I don't miss strife weaves as is. the only change that's exclusive to magblade that I would consider a buff is shade. Even the staff 2 piece doesn't really benefit magblade all that much because majority of the best sets for magblade you can run front bar back bar 5-5-2. With this new update strife and concealed weapon will cost about the same Magicka. Really all these changes have only made magblade easier to play for new magblades. And the other changes are universal for all classes and don't really help magblade any more than they help the other classes.1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭thankyourat wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »
PvP wise.
With potion cooldown glyphs, LA changes, shade changes, strife weave buff and staff changes Magnb is absolutely ridiculous.
Potion CD glyphs will be a bigger issue with argonians. So argonians are outclassing other races on multiple classes atm. Strife weave buff(i didnt make a mNB on the pts yet), what does it do? Dont ranged mNbs need to run more sustain now with the strife nerf?
@BohnT: how low does portion CD get there when its not bugged. Can we get near perma major vit/immoveable.
21 seconds with bugfixed glyphs.
I made a post with the according math a week ago defenitly check it out.
The strife weaving changes makes strife weaving just as easy as FP or any other spammable.
As i changed from meele magnb to ranged with the patch i can go with less regen than on live as concealed weapons is so expensive.
My build can sustain stam and mag perfectly with 600 stam and 900 magregen (statsheet) and it's not even heavily theorycrafted or optimised.
Yeah argonian enhances the issue a lot but as all of my chars are argonians i hope they leave the potion passive alone and rather balance the potion glyphs (they are op on all other races aswell )
Why would I give up all that damage to run potion glyphs though. Strife really isn't a big deal to me either because I don't miss strife weaves as is. the only change that's exclusive to magblade that I would consider a buff is shade. Even the staff 2 piece doesn't really benefit magblade all that much because majority of the best sets for magblade you can run front bar back bar 5-5-2. With this new update strife and concealed weapon will cost about the same Magicka. Really all these changes have only made magblade easier to play for new magblades. And the other changes are universal for all classes and don't really help magblade any more than they help the other classes.
You're not giving up damage.
With the changes and potion glyphs i can run:
Green magicka food (6k magicka compared to 3k from witch mother)
Double bar Inner light (4k magicka)
Necro + 70% uptime clever alchemist
Mage or apprentice mundus
Monster set of choice, i even used 2pc kena and with patience i could sustain well without heavy attacking
For refrence i did a 6m dummy test without a single light attack or siphoning strikes with 900 magregen.
I didn't even use a MSA Resto and don't forget even if you run low on a magnb the next potion won't be further away than 1-2 cloaks.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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That makes Zero sense all classes should have good healing.Nerftheforums wrote: »The nerf to crit heals from shadowy had to occur. We can't have one of the best bursts in the game AND heal decently. Makes no sense. Plus, this will make the unskilled nbs/unbalanced builds easier to kill, which makes me really happy.
Where is the good healing for sorcs then?
I give you both for siphoning attacks
Siphoning Attacks is half the heal of Surge & only applies to (usually dodgeable) light/heavy attacks, where as Surge not only heals for more, but can act as a "heal over time" with a DoT on target.
I don't see in what universe Siphoning Attacks would be a stronger heal, and even for sustain it's extremely unreliable as it can be neutered nigh useless by dodge rolling/cloaking.
Nor does it give Major Brutality/Sorcery, which would be a godsend for non-2H stamblades.
Playing magblade and sorc - given the respective toolkits of both classes surge is absolutely underwhelming compared to siphoning. I´d trade it in an instant for magsorc.
The universe where siphoning is the better heal is pvp practice on ranged magblade/magsorc.
It´s the other way around for stamblade and stamsorc.
Derra, idk if you're thinking rationally here.
Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks in the best case scenario is a 1452 heal for a light/heavy attack, where as Surge is 2500/2970 (depending on morph) heal on every crit.
So even if you're not weaving any abilities (and don't have any DoTs/enchants that can crit) it's worth a minimum 1250 healing/second with 50% crit chance.
Once you start weaving abilities, counting enchants etc the healing from Crit Surge gets way above whatever Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes provides, even against targets that aren't necessarily dodging every single light attack.
So healing wise there's no question which ability is better.
Whether you find the sustain from Siphoning Attacks the determining factor in which is the better skill is another matter entirely (I personally don't, but as you know I rarely care about sustain anyway).
It has nothing to do with rational thinking - as your approach isn´t rational to begin with because you´re setting favorable parameters for your approach (i´ll guarantee you not many sorc builds reach 50% crit)
Siphoning is a safe heal on every lightattack wether you´re offensive or defensive.
Surge is not - especially when you´re defensive because most sorc builds do not have dots.
Having played with highish crit builds and surge - it still gets outclasses by siphoning just by the fact that the heal isn´t safe.
One ability heals you always and you can boost healing when defensive on demand.
The other heals you better but on a % chance and heals worse when being defense.
In what universe is a heal that requires you to land a light attack a "safe heal"?
First of all it might as well have a "cast time" because you don't get the heal until you connect the light/heavy attack and in addition your opponent can dodge it entirely with a Shuffle or Dodge Roll (if I'm not mistaken, reflected light attacks also won't heal you).
Secondly, you don't need 50% crit chance to get better value on average out of Surge.
If you weave atleast two attacks every 1.3~ seconds and proc enchant every 5 seconds, here's the average healing you get with 35% crit chance:
Enchant 175 ([2500-65%]/5)
LA 673 (2500-65%]/1,3)
Skill 673 (2500-65%]/1,3)
---
1521
...and that's without even accounting for skills such as Force Pulse which have multiple instances of damage that can crit.
Of course any DoT on target (i.e. Burning status effect, crits from Curse for sorcs, or Destructive Reach/Clench DoT) tilts the balance even further towards Surge.
I've also played with both skills, and while I see the merits of Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks when it comes to sustain, it's a garbage skill for healing.0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yamenstein wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Yamenstein wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »If both morphs of strife will have increased cost, then their effectiveness should be increased respectively.
Funnel Health. should do less damage, but have a bigger heal. Also revert back to healing 2 friendly targets.
Swallow soul. should do increased damage, grants minor mending
To what extent? Matching force pulses tool tip damage would then become penetration, increased proc conditions vs ult generation, healing done and minor vitality. As far as ability budget goes, that would be lopsided and bring it back to the issue of why its cost is being changed in the first place.
Again, match the costs of both abilities, reduce that cost to around 2100 magicka base cost. Leave damage values as they are, change funnel to heal for more and deal less damage. And have it heal 2 targets (not guaranteeing the caster will always get the hot). Swallow soul is perfect as is right now and does not need a damage increase.
strife doesn't need to be brought in line with force pulse. force pulse is a weapon skill, strife is a class skill. A class skill should be more unique then a weapons skills that's available to everyone. we shouldn't be nerfing class skills because they may be better than weapons skills, class skills should be better than weapon skills period.
No not period you have a fundamentally flawed belief as to how abilities are weighted and budgeted in this game. No one from zos ever, since the inception of this game, has claimed class skills SHOULD be superior. That is something you came up with in your head.
Class skills, much like all the various analogous abilities in this game, should be unique to one another, not objectively superior to any other.
That is the reailty of the game, it is not an opinion.
because by balancing the nb's class skills to be in line with weapons skills you're actively harming the class. A NB's defenses/survivablity is it's superior resources, resource management and low cost skills it doesn't have insane burst heals, it's not that tanky and it doesn't have shield stacks it has none of these things, not innately. and it don't really need any of those things because it has it's resources and that is the identity of the class the way it's played and the uniqueness of it.
I don't care what class we're talking about, i don't want any of them to be cheapened like this.
You can't just look at class skills against other class skills. Otherwise they might as well remove all skill lines but the class ones!
If you want low cost skills then fine, Nerf the damage the skills can output then or remove the secondary affects or something. Something needs to be adjusted, whether it's the skill damage, utility, cost or even one of the passives that get triggered when using the skill.
Strife doesn't need to be adjusted is the thing. Strife is not what gives Magblades high DPS for DPS Force pulse is objectively better the heal is only good so long as you're spamming the ability the HoT itself is irrelevant and can easily be replaced with something else and better. as people have already said, it's low cost is why you use it over other abilities. it's not gonna get much use if the cost is increased.
Class skills should be more unique then Weapon skills, otherwise what's the point in having unique classes to begin with. not saying weapon skills have to suck but to balance class skills to be in line with weapon skills is just not a good idea. we'll end us with a lack of ingenuity in builds.
Strife will most certainly see use, what are you talking about lol... nb healers, solo builds and pvp setups will absolutely continue tonuse strife. One single build avenue for mag nbs will likely switch to FP.
Your last two entences also make a lick of sense. Each and every skill in this game is designed to function in some way unique. Class skills and weapon skills are equally unique in function, with class skills generally being reinforced themarically with said class. Whats the point of having unique classes? Maybe one small reason is thay scnearios where a class could provide a ranged 28m spell that heals instead of doing max damage. Enough with the cherry picking. Balancing weapon skills (all skills actually) under the same design philosophy is an absolutely critical thing to enforce and is an exceptional idea. Weapin skills, guild sjills world skills are not second rate fillers, they have never been and will continue not to be, they exist to flesh out build options and fill holes where class skills dont offer the desired niche for a particluar build.
I have 3 magblades one of them is a GO. i'm phasing out strife on all my builds.
that's really all i have say on it.
but lol NB healers
Im sorry? Do you find that humerous?
NB healers?, yeah. i mean it's fun to play a NB healer i've played around with it but in no world is a NB healers on the same level as Templar or Warden most groups are gonna be disappointed the NB is not DPSing. when i was playing around with it i got a lot of "oh good..... a nightblade healer, just what we need /sarcasm" XD
I do miss the old Funnel health tho, that was *** fun in both PvE and PvP.
But that just makes you part of the problem. Whats the point in any of the skill lines or abilities if you are going to say X class does one thing so others shouldn't. Just make DKs tanks, NBs stamina DPS, Sorcs magicka DPS and Templars healers. Kill wardens, we don't need any other classes because "lol wardens they can't do anything better than the other classes".
to be inventive in how you use them. i don't really want the devs to make it "easy" to play whatever role you want. possible but not easy.
the change to strife just makes magblades a sorc clone again.
Because sorcs dont have a class spamable and thus make use of FP, it automatically makes FP their skill? And any other class that opts to use it for its strengths are automatically relegated to sorc clone? Yeah no.
You do realize that regardless of where NB helaers are at tuneage wise (spoiler, they make for competent vet trial healers, as i regularly demonstrate and are in a good spot), funnel health IS an ally healing skill, and swallow soul is a selfish survivability skill, neither of these skills are meant to perform well for dps role magblades compared to FP. The devs want you to chose funnel health for its additional support features in a group, or swallow soul for its benefits for solo endeavors or self preservation (possible tanking option, pvp etc). The cost is not a factor in that choice anymore because the skills are weighted comparably and bring equal amounts to the table. If it didnt benefit from the specifically balanced siphoning passives, or it hit for much less and healed for more, then a significant reduction in cost would make sense.
The devs want you to make that choice, rather then magnb dps completely disregarding its unique benefits simply becuase it hits hard enough and lets them worry far less about resource sustain.Edited by exeeter702 on April 28, 2018 4:05PM0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
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That makes Zero sense all classes should have good healing.Nerftheforums wrote: »The nerf to crit heals from shadowy had to occur. We can't have one of the best bursts in the game AND heal decently. Makes no sense. Plus, this will make the unskilled nbs/unbalanced builds easier to kill, which makes me really happy.
Where is the good healing for sorcs then?
I give you both for siphoning attacks
Siphoning Attacks is half the heal of Surge & only applies to (usually dodgeable) light/heavy attacks, where as Surge not only heals for more, but can act as a "heal over time" with a DoT on target.
I don't see in what universe Siphoning Attacks would be a stronger heal, and even for sustain it's extremely unreliable as it can be neutered nigh useless by dodge rolling/cloaking.
Nor does it give Major Brutality/Sorcery, which would be a godsend for non-2H stamblades.
Playing magblade and sorc - given the respective toolkits of both classes surge is absolutely underwhelming compared to siphoning. I´d trade it in an instant for magsorc.
The universe where siphoning is the better heal is pvp practice on ranged magblade/magsorc.
It´s the other way around for stamblade and stamsorc.
Derra, idk if you're thinking rationally here.
Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks in the best case scenario is a 1452 heal for a light/heavy attack, where as Surge is 2500/2970 (depending on morph) heal on every crit.
So even if you're not weaving any abilities (and don't have any DoTs/enchants that can crit) it's worth a minimum 1250 healing/second with 50% crit chance.
Once you start weaving abilities, counting enchants etc the healing from Crit Surge gets way above whatever Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes provides, even against targets that aren't necessarily dodging every single light attack.
So healing wise there's no question which ability is better.
Whether you find the sustain from Siphoning Attacks the determining factor in which is the better skill is another matter entirely (I personally don't, but as you know I rarely care about sustain anyway).
It has nothing to do with rational thinking - as your approach isn´t rational to begin with because you´re setting favorable parameters for your approach (i´ll guarantee you not many sorc builds reach 50% crit)
Siphoning is a safe heal on every lightattack wether you´re offensive or defensive.
Surge is not - especially when you´re defensive because most sorc builds do not have dots.
Having played with highish crit builds and surge - it still gets outclasses by siphoning just by the fact that the heal isn´t safe.
One ability heals you always and you can boost healing when defensive on demand.
The other heals you better but on a % chance and heals worse when being defense.
In what universe is a heal that requires you to land a light attack a "safe heal"?
First of all it might as well have a "cast time" because you don't get the heal until you connect the light/heavy attack and in addition your opponent can dodge it entirely with a Shuffle or Dodge Roll (if I'm not mistaken, reflected light attacks also won't heal you).
Secondly, you don't need 50% crit chance to get better value on average out of Surge.
If you weave atleast two attacks every 1.3~ seconds and proc enchant every 5 seconds, here's the average healing you get with 35% crit chance:
Enchant 175 ([2500-65%]/5)
LA 673 (2500-65%]/1,3)
Skill 673 (2500-65%]/1,3)
---
1521
...and that's without even accounting for skills such as Force Pulse which have multiple instances of damage that can crit.
Of course any DoT on target (i.e. Burning status effect, crits from Curse for sorcs, or Destructive Reach/Clench DoT) tilts the balance even further towards Surge.
I've also played with both skills, and while I see the merits of Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks when it comes to sustain, it's a garbage skill for healing.
Not all crits can proc Surge due to the cd, so the amount of actual Surge procs is lower than the average amount of critical hits, because streaks of bad luck with no crits won't get balanced out by multiple crits at the same time.
I tend to get much better healing from Siphoning on my magblade than from Surge on magsorc. Granted this is without CP, so lower crit chance (~30%) and i suck at playing sorc. But even if they might heal for similar amounts at a higher crit rate and skill level, both are relatively weak when only taking the healing into account, and both offer additional benefits that make them worth slotting, so idk what's the point of the discussion.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've also played with both skills, and while I see the merits of Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks when it comes to sustain, it's a garbage skill for healing.
I´ve played wardless nb in light and wardless sorc in light.
Siphoning has the same average hps as surge has on these in duels (both between 1100 and 1400).<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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That makes Zero sense all classes should have good healing.Nerftheforums wrote: »The nerf to crit heals from shadowy had to occur. We can't have one of the best bursts in the game AND heal decently. Makes no sense. Plus, this will make the unskilled nbs/unbalanced builds easier to kill, which makes me really happy.
Where is the good healing for sorcs then?
I give you both for siphoning attacks
Siphoning Attacks is half the heal of Surge & only applies to (usually dodgeable) light/heavy attacks, where as Surge not only heals for more, but can act as a "heal over time" with a DoT on target.
I don't see in what universe Siphoning Attacks would be a stronger heal, and even for sustain it's extremely unreliable as it can be neutered nigh useless by dodge rolling/cloaking.
Nor does it give Major Brutality/Sorcery, which would be a godsend for non-2H stamblades.
Playing magblade and sorc - given the respective toolkits of both classes surge is absolutely underwhelming compared to siphoning. I´d trade it in an instant for magsorc.
The universe where siphoning is the better heal is pvp practice on ranged magblade/magsorc.
It´s the other way around for stamblade and stamsorc.
Derra, idk if you're thinking rationally here.
Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks in the best case scenario is a 1452 heal for a light/heavy attack, where as Surge is 2500/2970 (depending on morph) heal on every crit.
So even if you're not weaving any abilities (and don't have any DoTs/enchants that can crit) it's worth a minimum 1250 healing/second with 50% crit chance.
Once you start weaving abilities, counting enchants etc the healing from Crit Surge gets way above whatever Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes provides, even against targets that aren't necessarily dodging every single light attack.
So healing wise there's no question which ability is better.
Whether you find the sustain from Siphoning Attacks the determining factor in which is the better skill is another matter entirely (I personally don't, but as you know I rarely care about sustain anyway).
It has nothing to do with rational thinking - as your approach isn´t rational to begin with because you´re setting favorable parameters for your approach (i´ll guarantee you not many sorc builds reach 50% crit)
Siphoning is a safe heal on every lightattack wether you´re offensive or defensive.
Surge is not - especially when you´re defensive because most sorc builds do not have dots.
Having played with highish crit builds and surge - it still gets outclasses by siphoning just by the fact that the heal isn´t safe.
One ability heals you always and you can boost healing when defensive on demand.
The other heals you better but on a % chance and heals worse when being defense.
In what universe is a heal that requires you to land a light attack a "safe heal"?
First of all it might as well have a "cast time" because you don't get the heal until you connect the light/heavy attack and in addition your opponent can dodge it entirely with a Shuffle or Dodge Roll (if I'm not mistaken, reflected light attacks also won't heal you).
Secondly, you don't need 50% crit chance to get better value on average out of Surge.
If you weave atleast two attacks every 1.3~ seconds and proc enchant every 5 seconds, here's the average healing you get with 35% crit chance:
Enchant 175 ([2500-65%]/5)
LA 673 (2500-65%]/1,3)
Skill 673 (2500-65%]/1,3)
---
1521
...and that's without even accounting for skills such as Force Pulse which have multiple instances of damage that can crit.
Of course any DoT on target (i.e. Burning status effect, crits from Curse for sorcs, or Destructive Reach/Clench DoT) tilts the balance even further towards Surge.
I've also played with both skills, and while I see the merits of Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks when it comes to sustain, it's a garbage skill for healing.
Not all crits can proc Surge due to the cd, so the amount of actual Surge procs is lower than the average amount of critical hits, because streaks of bad luck with no crits won't get balanced out by multiple crits at the same time.
I tend to get much better healing from Siphoning on my magblade than from Surge on magsorc. Granted this is without CP, so lower crit chance (~30%) and i suck at playing sorc. But even if they might heal for similar amounts at a higher crit rate and skill level, both are relatively weak when only taking the healing into account, and both offer additional benefits that make them worth slotting, so idk what's the point of the discussion.
Yeah I agree it's a pointless discussion because I'd never slot either skill for healing alone, but it's important to be accurate with facts.
There's simply no way Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks provides more healing, especially when current population consists mostly of dodge roll monkeys on whom you'll land maybe 1-2 light attacks every 10 seconds.
Meanwhile being able to heal with Curse procs, Flame Reach/Clench DoTs (and Burning Status Effect from those) etc even on dodge roll spammers is more impactful (although still not impactful enough to have it on your bar for the healing alone). It's just harder to notice the healing behind 30k+ worth of shields & the instant heal from twilight which is usually a full heal anyway (meaning you're just overhealing with Surge after casting it).0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah I agree it's a pointless discussion because I'd never slot either skill for healing alone, but it's important to be accurate with facts.
Yeah that´s why you come up with madeup scenarios and prove how mathematically surge should be the superior heal.
Point is: I´ve been there and compared it to siphoning on builds with only healing ward and the mathematical advantage you´re desperately trying to find wasn´t existant in practice.
I´ve tested it in duels against (somewhat competent) players and tracked stats with combatmetrics which is why i why i say what i say about the skills.
I´ve tested that because i had the same thoughtprocess you had regarding surge btw. It should be superior. I just isn´t.
*shrug*
Maybe i pressed the buttons wrong on my sorc
Edited by Derra on April 28, 2018 4:26PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yeah I agree it's a pointless discussion because I'd never slot either skill for healing alone, but it's important to be accurate with facts.
Yeah that´s why you come up with madeup scenarios and prove how mathematically surge should be the superior heal.
Point is: I´ve been there and compared it to siphoning on builds with only healing ward and the mathematical advantage you´re desperately trying to find wasn´t existant in practice.
I´ve tested it in duels against (somewhat competent) players and tracked stats with combatmetrics which is why i why i say what i say about the skills.
I´ve tested that because i had the same thoughtprocess you had regarding surge btw. It should be superior. I just isn´t.
*shrug*
Maybe i pressed the buttons wrong on my sorc
...and I tried Leeching Strikes as a supplemental heal to Vigor on my bowblade (I don't care about the sustain aspect) - found it complete garbage & unslotted it pretty quick.
I also slot Surge as a supplemental heal (and Major Brutality) to Vigor on my bow sorc and I've noticed it works a lot better healing wise, and I don't even run DoTs on that build (Bombard+Focused Aim, so no Poisoned Status Effect or Acid Spray DoT), except the PI that ticks every 2 seconds.
So it's not just maths I've got behind my argument, but also experience with both skills.Edited by DDuke on April 28, 2018 5:00PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah I agree it's a pointless discussion because I'd never slot either skill for healing alone, but it's important to be accurate with facts.
Yeah that´s why you come up with madeup scenarios and prove how mathematically surge should be the superior heal.
Point is: I´ve been there and compared it to siphoning on builds with only healing ward and the mathematical advantage you´re desperately trying to find wasn´t existant in practice.
I´ve tested it in duels against (somewhat competent) players and tracked stats with combatmetrics which is why i why i say what i say about the skills.
I´ve tested that because i had the same thoughtprocess you had regarding surge btw. It should be superior. I just isn´t.
*shrug*
Maybe i pressed the buttons wrong on my sorc
...and I tried Leeching Strikes as a supplemental heal to Vigor on my bowblade (I don't care about the sustain aspect) - found it complete garbage & unslotted it pretty quick.
I also slot Surge as a supplemental heal (and Major Brutality) to Vigor on my bow sorc and I've noticed it works a lot better healing wise, and I don't even run DoTs on that build (Bombard+Focused Aim, so no Poisoned Status Effect or Acid Spray DoT), except the PI that ticks every 2 seconds.
So it's not just maths I've got behind my argument, but also experience with both skills.
Oh nice. So you didn´t bother to read my post where i stated that it´s specifically about magblade and magsorc and it´s 100% the other way around for stamsorc and stamblade?
Cool.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yeah I agree it's a pointless discussion because I'd never slot either skill for healing alone, but it's important to be accurate with facts.
Yeah that´s why you come up with madeup scenarios and prove how mathematically surge should be the superior heal.
Point is: I´ve been there and compared it to siphoning on builds with only healing ward and the mathematical advantage you´re desperately trying to find wasn´t existant in practice.
I´ve tested it in duels against (somewhat competent) players and tracked stats with combatmetrics which is why i why i say what i say about the skills.
I´ve tested that because i had the same thoughtprocess you had regarding surge btw. It should be superior. I just isn´t.
*shrug*
Maybe i pressed the buttons wrong on my sorc
...and I tried Leeching Strikes as a supplemental heal to Vigor on my bowblade (I don't care about the sustain aspect) - found it complete garbage & unslotted it pretty quick.
I also slot Surge as a supplemental heal (and Major Brutality) to Vigor on my bow sorc and I've noticed it works a lot better healing wise, and I don't even run DoTs on that build (Bombard+Focused Aim, so no Poisoned Status Effect or Acid Spray DoT), except the PI that ticks every 2 seconds.
So it's not just maths I've got behind my argument, but also experience with both skills.
Derra talks about magblade and magsorc while Deci talks about stamblade and stamsorc Imo critsurge is the better heal on stamina, I don't know how it is on magicka to be honest. Edited by Ragnaroek93 on April 28, 2018 5:05PMI used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭This discussion wont get anywhere. Surge vs siphoning strikes depends on ur opponent and ur own builds. Ofc a mSorc gets alot less value out of it as a dot build. And a bow build using the snipe channel wont get big value out of hp on light attacks. Im gonna test that now on my build that uses only pets and curse and procs and will come to the result that surge sucks...
And next im gonna make a wb nb with 2h (2h light attacks are slower as the others) and come to the conclusion siphoning sucks...
But just ignore me and go on spamming the nightblade balance thread with that INSIGHTFUL information...Edited by Murador178 on April 28, 2018 5:10PM1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »This discussion wont get anywhere. Surge vs siphoning strikes depends on ur opponent and ur own builds. Ofc a mSorc gets alot less value out of it as a dot build. And a bow build using the snipe channel wont get big value out of hp on light attacks. Im gonna test that now on my build that uses only pets and curse and procs and will come to the result that surge sucks...
And next im gonna make a wb nb with 2h (2h light attacks are slower as the others) and come to the conclusion siphoning sucks...
Petabilities procc surge. It´s actually good there
<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »This discussion wont get anywhere. Surge vs siphoning strikes depends on ur opponent and ur own builds. Ofc a mSorc gets alot less value out of it as a dot build. And a bow build using the snipe channel wont get big value out of hp on light attacks. Im gonna test that now on my build that uses only pets and curse and procs and will come to the result that surge sucks...
And next im gonna make a wb nb with 2h (2h light attacks are slower as the others) and come to the conclusion siphoning sucks...
Petabilities procc surge. It´s actually good there
They do? Wow I didnt know. Does shadowrend count? Edited by Murador178 on April 28, 2018 5:12PM1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »This discussion wont get anywhere. Surge vs siphoning strikes depends on ur opponent and ur own builds. Ofc a mSorc gets alot less value out of it as a dot build. And a bow build using the snipe channel wont get big value out of hp on light attacks. Im gonna test that now on my build that uses only pets and curse and procs and will come to the result that surge sucks...
And next im gonna make a wb nb with 2h (2h light attacks are slower as the others) and come to the conclusion siphoning sucks...
Petabilities procc surge. It´s actually good there
They do? Wow I didnt know. Does shadowrend count?
Not the normal attack - the familar pulse. That´s a player casted dot based on the pet.
Shadowrend is a proccset and therefor can´t crit in the first place :P<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »Murador178 wrote: »This discussion wont get anywhere. Surge vs siphoning strikes depends on ur opponent and ur own builds. Ofc a mSorc gets alot less value out of it as a dot build. And a bow build using the snipe channel wont get big value out of hp on light attacks. Im gonna test that now on my build that uses only pets and curse and procs and will come to the result that surge sucks...
And next im gonna make a wb nb with 2h (2h light attacks are slower as the others) and come to the conclusion siphoning sucks...
Petabilities procc surge. It´s actually good there
They do? Wow I didnt know. Does shadowrend count?
Not the normal attack - the familar pulse. That´s a player casted dot based on the pet.
Shadowrend is a proccset and therefor can´t crit in the first place :P
Ah okay. I was rly suprised that auto attacks on pets can crit. Was pretty sure they cant.^^0 -
Sparky617✭✭✭RIP Twisting Path. =P
Twisting Path is probably getting replaced with Refreshing if the nerf sticks as it is. I did a naked, no CP, No food comparison between live and pts. I did have Atronach mundus on both characters
Tooltip Damage
PTS~
Twisting= 397 (3510 magicka)
Refreshing= 330 DPS - 349 HPS (3510 magicka)
Blockade= 470 (3204 magicka)
Live~
Twisting= 490 (3510 magicka)
Refreshing= 348 DPS - 368 HPS (3510 magicka)
Blockade= 470 (3262 magicka)
Looks like Blockade got a super secret cost reduction so that's gotta stay on the bar.
The healing utility from refreshing path outweighs the sad DPS increase that Twisting get now. It does LESS damage than Blockade and it costs MORE... 2 seconds of major expedition isn't worth that. I'd rather equip SPC and drop refreshing into my rotation with funnel Health.
Twisting path should be equal to Blockade as far as cost and effect. if the cost is higher, it should eith do more damage, or offer a utility that makes it worth it.. if it's going to do less damage, and offer crap utility then it should cost less magicka. Hell, give it a synergy or something.2 -
rabidmyers✭✭✭✭✭RIP Twisting Path. =P
Twisting Path is probably getting replaced with Refreshing if the nerf sticks as it is. I did a naked, no CP, No food comparison between live and pts. I did have Atronach mundus on both characters
Tooltip Damage
PTS~
Twisting= 397 (3510 magicka)
Refreshing= 330 DPS - 349 HPS (3510 magicka)
Blockade= 470 (3204 magicka)
Live~
Twisting= 490 (3510 magicka)
Refreshing= 348 DPS - 368 HPS (3510 magicka)
Blockade= 470 (3262 magicka)
Looks like Blockade got a super secret cost reduction so that's gotta stay on the bar.
The healing utility from refreshing path outweighs the sad DPS increase that Twisting get now. It does LESS damage than Blockade and it costs MORE... 2 seconds of major expedition isn't worth that. I'd rather equip SPC and drop refreshing into my rotation with funnel Health.
Twisting path should be equal to Blockade as far as cost and effect. if the cost is higher, it should eith do more damage, or offer a utility that makes it worth it.. if it's going to do less damage, and offer crap utility then it should cost less magicka. Hell, give it a synergy or something.
yes i been saying that i would love for refreshing path to have a utility, as a nb healer we need more utility in our kits and i can picture refreshing path having one. also when i play magicka dps i have always used refreshing over twisting path before the nerfs anyways, i just enjoyed the healing more than the dmg increaseat a place nobody knows0 -
Sparky617✭✭✭rabidrufus64 wrote: »RIP Twisting Path. =P
Twisting Path is probably getting replaced with Refreshing if the nerf sticks as it is. I did a naked, no CP, No food comparison between live and pts. I did have Atronach mundus on both characters
Tooltip Damage
PTS~
Twisting= 397 (3510 magicka)
Refreshing= 330 DPS - 349 HPS (3510 magicka)
Blockade= 470 (3204 magicka)
Live~
Twisting= 490 (3510 magicka)
Refreshing= 348 DPS - 368 HPS (3510 magicka)
Blockade= 470 (3262 magicka)
Looks like Blockade got a super secret cost reduction so that's gotta stay on the bar.
The healing utility from refreshing path outweighs the sad DPS increase that Twisting get now. It does LESS damage than Blockade and it costs MORE... 2 seconds of major expedition isn't worth that. I'd rather equip SPC and drop refreshing into my rotation with funnel Health.
Twisting path should be equal to Blockade as far as cost and effect. if the cost is higher, it should eith do more damage, or offer a utility that makes it worth it.. if it's going to do less damage, and offer crap utility then it should cost less magicka. Hell, give it a synergy or something.
yes i been saying that i would love for refreshing path to have a utility, as a nb healer we need more utility in our kits and i can picture refreshing path having one. also when i play magicka dps i have always used refreshing over twisting path before the nerfs anyways, i just enjoyed the healing more than the dmg increase
I think refreshing has plenty of utility with it's heal alone, and it's damage is perfect. Anything more would flirt with being OP. Twisting Path on live is pretty close to balanced if you consider that it's base damage is only slightly higher than Elemental Blockade and it's cost is slightly higher as well... I can see bringing that into line so that those two skills do equal damage. Twisting costing slightly more to justify 2 seconds of major expedition.
Instead of reducing the damage of Twisting by "approximately 9%", reduce it by 5% ,but grant minor Brutality and minor Sorcery for the 11.5 second duration for yourself and up to 11 friendly targets. Leave the magicka cost as is. It's already higher than Blockade by 250 Magicka.Edited by Sparky617 on April 30, 2018 5:38PM1 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno Class snare removal pls. For example on activating healing morf of invisibility.
Or Sap Essence/Power Extraction.
Let us to not be glued to "Forward momentum" in heavy and light. magblade with 2hander - its ugly.
Variety please...
if there is going to be class snare removal for nb. it has to be on blur i think.
Sure. So they get Major Evasion for 26 seconds, or if you meant Double Take, also Major Expedition for 4 seconds on top of that, and snare removal and immunity? StamBlades can run Heavy Armour and Rally as no brainer then?
No thanks.
i don't even care. snares are the worst thing in this game by a country mile. they either need to remove snares on things like flying blades or give every class a snare removal. keep in mind this is removal not immunity.
A snare removal is the most useless thing in this game either you get immunity or you can also use the base morph because that removal won't help you at all as you will be snared .1s afterwards
immunity is too much. all i need is a removal.
Believe me a removal won't do you any good, back when shuffle was available for everyone you could have it as a removal only it was extremely weak you just get snare again before you can even walk 1m.
Same with DK wings which only grant a removal atm but it's useless you just get snared again and lost the whole effect
If you seriously think it won't do any good you are an idiot. I hit cloak and am snared to hell and back most the time. If I had removal I could actually move a bit. Don't need immunity
Have fun with caltrops, warden with permafrost, a magdk etc.
The removal is useless flat out useless.
I played meele magnb with DW and mist form long enough to know when a snare removal works and when it doesn't. As soon as you can't get 2-3 seconds when you are actually immune to snares you are dead because you can't move. Sure do a dodge roll into shade with snare removal this may work from time to time but in most cases you will just get another snare on you when you enter combat again.
You need time to move out of things or away from things and during this time snares are lethal and you need be immune to them.
Look how good mistform is when you get rooted by a poison while using it, it's absolutely useless and that's what all snare removal only skills are aswell
playing DW magblade with mistform is idiotic >.< Permafrost is just plain uncounterable. If you have people spamming you with caltrops your probably going to die anyways.Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rabidrufus64 wrote: »RIP Twisting Path. =P
Twisting Path is probably getting replaced with Refreshing if the nerf sticks as it is. I did a naked, no CP, No food comparison between live and pts. I did have Atronach mundus on both characters
Tooltip Damage
PTS~
Twisting= 397 (3510 magicka)
Refreshing= 330 DPS - 349 HPS (3510 magicka)
Blockade= 470 (3204 magicka)
Live~
Twisting= 490 (3510 magicka)
Refreshing= 348 DPS - 368 HPS (3510 magicka)
Blockade= 470 (3262 magicka)
Looks like Blockade got a super secret cost reduction so that's gotta stay on the bar.
The healing utility from refreshing path outweighs the sad DPS increase that Twisting get now. It does LESS damage than Blockade and it costs MORE... 2 seconds of major expedition isn't worth that. I'd rather equip SPC and drop refreshing into my rotation with funnel Health.
Twisting path should be equal to Blockade as far as cost and effect. if the cost is higher, it should eith do more damage, or offer a utility that makes it worth it.. if it's going to do less damage, and offer crap utility then it should cost less magicka. Hell, give it a synergy or something.
yes i been saying that i would love for refreshing path to have a utility, as a nb healer we need more utility in our kits and i can picture refreshing path having one. also when i play magicka dps i have always used refreshing over twisting path before the nerfs anyways, i just enjoyed the healing more than the dmg increase
I think refreshing has plenty of utility with it's heal alone, and it's damage is perfect. Anything more would flirt with being OP. Twisting Path on live is pretty close to balanced if you consider that it's base damage is only slightly higher than Elemental Blockade and it's cost is slightly higher as well... I can see bringing that into line so that those two skills do equal damage. Twisting costing slightly more to justify 2 seconds of major expedition.
Instead of reducing the damage of Twisting by "approximately 9%", reduce it by 5% ,but grant minor Brutality and minor Sorcery for the 11.5 second duration for yourself and up to 11 friendly targets. Leave the magicka cost as is. It's already higher than Blockade by 250 Magicka.
Minor brutality and minor sorcery are explicitly designed as class buffs that are generally role agnostic and are only otherwise obtainable via poisons and a single 5 pc bonus (warrior poet ).
Dk - minor brutality
Templar - minor sorcery
Sorc - minor prophecy
Nb - minor savagery
Warden - minor toughness
Nb needs utility, but not both minor brut and minor sorcery, as that would be largely redundant in a group environment. Unless you chose to have zero DKs and zero templars in your group.Edited by exeeter702 on April 30, 2018 6:16PM0 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Lucky28
Counterplay? Where is it when you just go Snare Removal -> Shadow Image Teleport -> Cloak -> Gone? You can just try to spam a gap closer (if you have one) and hope you stay on top. Nothing more.
and where is the counterplay in being snared 100% of the time while being Xv1ed?. and you don't need snare removal to get away with shadow image into cloak.
I thought that was the whole point of snare removal. Because your fellow NBs were complaining that you can’t get away with Cloak because you’re snared.
if you place a shadow image in a position where you can get away beforehand, yeah. but not when you're in a 1v1 that turns into a 1v20 with no image. and this is only magblade, stamblade has snare removal and immunity already.
I find that fine. MagNB can perma cloak and run, and should do so if they notice more enemies coming into the fray. StamNB has no option to break sight for more than about 6s, which is why they have more escape while under pressure.
If you get caught as a MagNB in a bad spot, you're dead. that's the cost of the ability to freely engage and reengage with your resource pool.
If you want a stamina playstyle but for magicka, gtfo. Just play stamina or build hybrid.
that's what they say but the reality is stamblades can pretty much live in cloak as well not as long as magblades sure, but long enough to where it doesn't matter much.
Forum StamBlades say otherwise. According to them it’s 3 or 4 times max. Maybe the NB community should discuss and state what’s true and what’s not....
That's not true any decent stamblade openworld build can cloak about 5-6 times in a row. Cloak is one of these skills thats either too strong or too weak - its too weak vs the zerg that ALWAYS got that mark bot and too strong vs 1-2 players having no counters(even so thats also their mistake) - I think cloak should be MORE expensive and MARK should be be nerfed(suggesting to nerf a nb skill )
I disagree on Incap nerfs: I dont see nb nearly as strong in the upcoming patch anyways. The spam roll playstyle takes a huge hit with sorc having a high dmg through roll/block CC (that every not braindead sorc will run). My Pts sorc oneshots medium armor stamblades like cyndis (@Ragnaroek93 ) from full HP without even using the meteor combo (that combo oneshots heavy armor builds). The incap will or will incap combo is atleast easy to evade as long as ur not lagging. Imo and many fellow pts testers medium armor will be dead again.
@Subversus test ur sorc on the pts - u will love it 
@Derra dont even compare mag sorc and mag nb for the next patch. One class can kill everbody through block/roll another cant
They cloak five or six times if they've got a mag potion ready or if they're Argonian. Otherwise they've got 10k magicka max, which translates to 3-4 times depending on regen. What they're likely doing is running the shade and teleporting, kiting you around a building long enough to regen/wearing Shadow Walker in place, and then cloaking. If the stamblade is saving their potion for just before when they need it, is an off meta race, is running higher mag-regen, or is using the shade effectively, then the stamblade is good against your group, not unbalanced generally.
In other words, they are being allowed to cloak that often and still kill you, which is on you.Murador178 wrote: »That's not true any decent stamblade openworld build can cloak about 5-6 times in a row. Cloak is one of these skills thats either too strong or too weak - its too weak vs the zerg that ALWAYS got that mark bot and too strong vs 1-2 players having no counters(even so thats also their mistake) -
So yeah, with the trollface, this is an obvious troll post, but all the more so since this statement actually describes balance. Cloak is good in some situations and not good in others. Without a mark-bot, zergs have enough ranged AoE DoTs/snares and enough people to render cloak much less effective. Against smaller groups cloak is much more effective, but it isn't "too strong" if it is the opponents' mistake for not having counters to cloak. It isn't reasonable to do small-group PvP and not expect to run into enemy nightblades.Edited by waitwhat on April 30, 2018 7:41PMPS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."4 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭
That makes Zero sense all classes should have good healing.Nerftheforums wrote: »The nerf to crit heals from shadowy had to occur. We can't have one of the best bursts in the game AND heal decently. Makes no sense. Plus, this will make the unskilled nbs/unbalanced builds easier to kill, which makes me really happy.
Where is the good healing for sorcs then?
I give you both for siphoning attacks
Siphoning Attacks is half the heal of Surge & only applies to (usually dodgeable) light/heavy attacks, where as Surge not only heals for more, but can act as a "heal over time" with a DoT on target.
I don't see in what universe Siphoning Attacks would be a stronger heal, and even for sustain it's extremely unreliable as it can be neutered nigh useless by dodge rolling/cloaking.
Nor does it give Major Brutality/Sorcery, which would be a godsend for non-2H stamblades.
Playing magblade and sorc - given the respective toolkits of both classes surge is absolutely underwhelming compared to siphoning. I´d trade it in an instant for magsorc.
The universe where siphoning is the better heal is pvp practice on ranged magblade/magsorc.
It´s the other way around for stamblade and stamsorc.
Derra, idk if you're thinking rationally here.
Leeching Strikes/Siphoning Attacks in the best case scenario is a 1452 heal for a light/heavy attack, where as Surge is 2500/2970 (depending on morph) heal on every crit.
So even if you're not weaving any abilities (and don't have any DoTs/enchants that can crit) it's worth a minimum 1250 healing/second with 50% crit chance.
Once you start weaving abilities, counting enchants etc the healing from Crit Surge gets way above whatever Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes provides, even against targets that aren't necessarily dodging every single light attack.
So healing wise there's no question which ability is better.
Whether you find the sustain from Siphoning Attacks the determining factor in which is the better skill is another matter entirely (I personally don't, but as you know I rarely care about sustain anyway).
It has nothing to do with rational thinking - as your approach isn´t rational to begin with because you´re setting favorable parameters for your approach (i´ll guarantee you not many sorc builds reach 50% crit)
Siphoning is a safe heal on every lightattack wether you´re offensive or defensive.
Surge is not - especially when you´re defensive because most sorc builds do not have dots.
Having played with highish crit builds and surge - it still gets outclasses by siphoning just by the fact that the heal isn´t safe.
One ability heals you always and you can boost healing when defensive on demand.
The other heals you better but on a % chance and heals worse when being defense.
@Murador178 i´ve made my stance on runecage clear elsewhere - having a discussion on a topic isn´t illegitimate bc of a different unrelated ability. Grow up.
@Derra In regards to Power Surge specifically, it doesn't comport with reality to characterize it as a less safe heal than Siphoning Strikes.Having played with highish crit builds and surge - it still gets outclasses by siphoning just by the fact that the heal isn´t safe.
One ability heals you always and you can boost healing when defensive on demand.
The other heals you better but on a % chance and heals worse when being defense.
The sorc can play defensively while healing with Power Surge by heavy attacking with a lightning stave (or resto for what it's worth), casting Destructive Reach at great range, casting Structured Entropy, or horror-of-horrors, running the twilight for a ranged dot and substantial burst heal. With siphoning, the nb has to light attack repeatedly to get a reliable HoT out of the cast. They can light attack weave with shields and jump spam, but the requirement that they face their opponent and light attack repeatedly to heal means they can't disengage from the fight as a sorc can, and still heal. At most, the two are equivalent in how safe they are and how much they allow the casters to play defensively.
Although Power Surge heals based on the caster's crit chance, Siphoning Strikes heals based on opponent's dodge chance. If someone gains major evasion from any source (it's not just Double Take and Shuffle anymore), that chance goes down dramatically. Also, given the role enemy dodging plays in healing from Siphoning, the skill is uniquely disadvantaged against high-mobility stamina DD builds vis-a-vis Power Surge. Again, many sorc builds do have DoTs, and those dots can all be applied to the enemy while allowing the sorc to disengage via streak/storm while still getting a passive heal. Again, at most, the two are equivalent in their chances of proccing heals.
Finally, and most importantly, even if Power Surge is a less-reliable, less-defensive heal than Siphoning Strikes, Power Surge gives Major Sorcery which 1) befits an offensively-focused heal as in your conception of it and 2) justifies the heal being inferior (and only just) to Siphoning Strikes. Indeed the resource-return and Transfer passive associated with Siphoning Strikes clearly establishes Siphoning Strikes as intended to be less offensive: Resources are needed for protracted fights, kiting, and disengagement, and the Transfer passive gives a 3% bonus to healing done for having the skill slotted. By contrast, Major Sorcery only benefits the user going on the offence, and the Expert Mage passive increases the caster's spell damage by 2% just for having the ability slotted.
In other words, the skills are largely on-par with one another, and even if Siphoning is a slightly more reliable heal, it is sensibly and justifiably so.Edited by waitwhat on April 30, 2018 8:12PMPS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Still no strife change
Revert Siphoning attacks or increase the heal the skill currently gives to 2.5k
Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info1