It's Been 3 Years Since we had a PvP DLC

Coggo

It does feel as if Cyrodil and the Alliance War are being left to wither on the vine.

Vahrokh

It's few weeks we got the umpteenth nerf to PvE mag sorcs and mag DKs thanks to PvP.

ZOS don't need to create PvP DLCs. Their constant PvP-induced PvE nerfs are a testament to their active commitment with PvP.

ayu_fever

ZOS should just pull the plug on pvp and open up those areas as pure pve.
there are other games that focus on silly pvp nonsense.
those pvp mains and their cries for nerfs ruin MY pve experience.

NoMoreChillies

Vahrokh wrote: »

It's few weeks we got the umpteenth nerf to PvE mag sorcs and mag DKs thanks to PvP.

ZOS don't need to create PvP DLCs. Their constant PvP-induced PvE nerfs are a testament to their active commitment with PvP.

the vocal minority

Gothrock

ayu_fever wrote: »

ZOS should just pull the plug on pvp and open up those areas as pure pve.
there are other games that focus on silly pvp nonsense.
those pvp mains and their cries for nerfs ruin MY pve experience.

ZOS should just pull the plug on pve and open up those areas as world pvp.
there are other games that focus on silly killing scripted mobs nonsense.
those pve mains and their cries about letting them use OP stuff ruin MY pvp experience.

Maura_Neysa

Because a whole new class which is particularly PvP strong doesn't count? Or what about whole new sets, those don't count either?

pieratsos

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Because a whole new class which is particularly PvP strong doesn't count? Or what about whole new sets, those don't count either?

Now a new class and new sets are PVP updates? Wut? So you are telling me that if ZOS stopped introducing any dungeons or trials and just gave you sets, you would be satisfied and say "nice, so much PVE content". lol.

Biro123

And this thread shows the toxicity that is the PVE community...

One of the reasons I stay away from group PVE and stick to PVP where the people are pretty cool.

DieAlteHexe

Biro123 wrote: »

And this thread shows the toxicity that is the PVE community...

One of the reasons I stay away from group PVE and stick to PVP where the people are pretty cool.

Oh yes, let's brand entire communities, that's very helpful.

Seriously, there are arse-hats in BOTH communities, no argument there but this sort of posting doesn't help one bit. Don't contribute to this divisive nonsense.

Maura_Neysa

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Because a whole new class which is particularly PvP strong doesn't count? Or what about whole new sets, those don't count either?

Now a new class and new sets are PVP updates? Wut? So you are telling me that if ZOS stopped introducing any dungeons or trials and just gave you sets, you would be satisfied and say "nice, so much PVE content". lol.

Several of the best PvE sets come from Cryodiil. New class? hell yes, its changed a lot about PvP completly shifted the balance.

Personally I think they need to stop being separate worlds. Why is the war only in Cryodiil. Why isn't the War also in Eastmarch. Control PvP through military status and make it everywhere except instances. Then EVERY update would be to both. PvP orientate people could go run regular quest and look for the enemies everywhere. For the exceptionally good players, it would add in the whole new element of having to watch your back. If you got tired of it, go On Leave. It would also blur the line Dueling at Shrines and full on Cryodiil uptop. More like Sewers farming,

By the way, also whole new guild skill line coming. Of course it may or may not be worth anything in PvP

Biro123 wrote: »

And this thread shows the toxicity that is the PVE community...

One of the reasons I stay away from group PVE and stick to PVP where the people are pretty cool.

Unless you play in both sides its pretty hard to compare the two. I am by no means PvE only. I would also say PvP is more of the toxic type, and PvE is more of the clueless type. So you can pick your least favorite, but they both come with baggage.

pieratsos

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Because a whole new class which is particularly PvP strong doesn't count? Or what about whole new sets, those don't count either?

Now a new class and new sets are PVP updates? Wut? So you are telling me that if ZOS stopped introducing any dungeons or trials and just gave you sets, you would be satisfied and say "nice, so much PVE content". lol.

Several of the best PvE sets come from Cryodiil. New class? hell yes, its changed a lot about PvP completly shifted the balance.

Personally I think they need to stop being separate worlds. Why is the war only in Cryodiil. Why isn't the War also in Eastmarch. Control PvP through military status and make it everywhere except instances. Then EVERY update would be to both. PvP orientate people could go run regular quest and look for the enemies everywhere. For the exceptionally good players, it would add in the whole new element of having to watch your back. If you got tired of it, go On Leave. It would also blur the line Dueling at Shrines and full on Cryodiil uptop. More like Sewers farming,

You are now touching on a whole new subject. Thats not the point and something like that is realistically impossible to do. You cant force every player in the game to participate in PVP.

Several PVE sets come from PVP? Really you seriously want to discuss that? Literally 90%+ of the best PVP sets come from PVE. This isnt a debate about PVE vs PVP and im not sure why u are trying to make it one.

My point was that new skills/sets are not considered PVP or PVE updates. If that were true then they could literally stop adding anything in PVP or PVE cause every patch they introduce new sets. That doesnt make any sense. Adding a new trial/dungeons is a PVE content/update. Not introducing new sets. Same with PVP. Shifting the "meta" with a couple of sets or a couple of combat changes isnt a PVP update.

Maura_Neysa

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Because a whole new class which is particularly PvP strong doesn't count? Or what about whole new sets, those don't count either?

Now a new class and new sets are PVP updates? Wut? So you are telling me that if ZOS stopped introducing any dungeons or trials and just gave you sets, you would be satisfied and say "nice, so much PVE content". lol.

Several of the best PvE sets come from Cryodiil. New class? hell yes, its changed a lot about PvP completly shifted the balance.

Personally I think they need to stop being separate worlds. Why is the war only in Cryodiil. Why isn't the War also in Eastmarch. Control PvP through military status and make it everywhere except instances. Then EVERY update would be to both. PvP orientate people could go run regular quest and look for the enemies everywhere. For the exceptionally good players, it would add in the whole new element of having to watch your back. If you got tired of it, go On Leave. It would also blur the line Dueling at Shrines and full on Cryodiil uptop. More like Sewers farming,

You are now touching on a whole new subject. Thats not the point and something like that is realistically impossible to do. You cant force every player in the game to participate in PVP. You missed the premise completely. Join the Military and PvP anywhere you want. Don't join and go anywhere you want with no PvP worries

Several PVE sets come from PVP? Really you seriously want to discuss that? Literally 90%+ of the best PVP sets come from PVE. This isnt a debate about PVE vs PVP and im not sure why u are trying to make it one. My point is that things are changing in PvP because of Sets. Do you mean you want a new way to Zerg? Do you want a new way to small scale PvP. Does Battle Grounds not count? That was also only 9 months ago. Do you just wants some new PvE content in Cryodiil? Cause thats still PvE

My point was that new skills/sets are not considered PVP or PVE updates. If that were true then they could literally stop adding anything in PVP or PVE cause every patch they introduce new sets. That doesnt make any sense. Adding a new trial/dungeons is a PVE content/update. Not introducing new sets. Same with PVP. Shifting the "meta" with a couple of sets or a couple of combat changes isnt a PVP update. Again, exactly what do you want than, just new places to PvE while in a PvP zone?

pieratsos

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Because a whole new class which is particularly PvP strong doesn't count? Or what about whole new sets, those don't count either?

Now a new class and new sets are PVP updates? Wut? So you are telling me that if ZOS stopped introducing any dungeons or trials and just gave you sets, you would be satisfied and say "nice, so much PVE content". lol.

Several of the best PvE sets come from Cryodiil. New class? hell yes, its changed a lot about PvP completly shifted the balance.

Personally I think they need to stop being separate worlds. Why is the war only in Cryodiil. Why isn't the War also in Eastmarch. Control PvP through military status and make it everywhere except instances. Then EVERY update would be to both. PvP orientate people could go run regular quest and look for the enemies everywhere. For the exceptionally good players, it would add in the whole new element of having to watch your back. If you got tired of it, go On Leave. It would also blur the line Dueling at Shrines and full on Cryodiil uptop. More like Sewers farming,

You are now touching on a whole new subject. Thats not the point and something like that is realistically impossible to do. You cant force every player in the game to participate in PVP. You missed the premise completely. Join the Military and PvP anywhere you want. Don't join and go anywhere you want with no PvP worries

Several PVE sets come from PVP? Really you seriously want to discuss that? Literally 90%+ of the best PVP sets come from PVE. This isnt a debate about PVE vs PVP and im not sure why u are trying to make it one. My point is that things are changing in PvP because of Sets. Do you mean you want a new way to Zerg? Do you want a new way to small scale PvP. Does Battle Grounds not count? That was also only 9 months ago. Do you just wants some new PvE content in Cryodiil? Cause thats still PvE

My point was that new skills/sets are not considered PVP or PVE updates. If that were true then they could literally stop adding anything in PVP or PVE cause every patch they introduce new sets. That doesnt make any sense. Adding a new trial/dungeons is a PVE content/update. Not introducing new sets. Same with PVP. Shifting the "meta" with a couple of sets or a couple of combat changes isnt a PVP update. Again, exactly what do you want than, just new places to PvE while in a PvP zone?

Again that wouldnt work. It sounds nice but there is simply not enough PVP population to sustain something like that and there would need to be massive changes for rewards, motives, objectives etc to even encourage you to do that. The irony is that something like that would be a PVP update. Which is precisely the point. When are we going to get one?

And we are not even touching on the backlash it would receive from PVE players. I mean, they complain because two players have the audacity to duel in the city because "it breaks their immersion". Imagine making the entire world a PVP area. Lets just say that this is a risk that ZOS is not going to take and tbh we dont even need something that big.

What we are asking is simply showing that they even care. Something more than just adding a stupid flag.

Cyrodiil is prety much the same since launch. Its designed for a game that doesnt even exist anymore. Performance is trash, gameplay is trash, the map is too big, half of it is wasted, no one cares about objectives, layout of keeps is the same. IC is empty, there is literally no point to go there. There are hundreds of posts in the forums with suggestions to make them better and videos showing the wasted opportunities in cyrodiil. Not just random ideas. Posts with a deep overhaul of the alliance war to make it better. Even right now there is an ongoing thread with suggestions for an overhaul of the alliance war. Suggestions that people spent days and weeks to come up with.

BGs is the only thing they bother to adjust every now and then (because morrowind is obviously not free) with a couple of changes like once a year and even that has major issues, the queue system is so screwed up, leaderboards are bad, game modes also have their issues and people have been asking forever to do something to make them better.

Vrienda

PvPers get enough already.

Feanor

Carbonised wrote: »

This game doesn't revolve primarily around pvp. Some diehards really need to realize that.

There is a vast space between „revolving primarily around“ and the state we have now. One that ZOS doesn’t fill. PvP is a bit like a patient on life support where the doctors haven’t found the courage yet to tell the rest of the family it would be best to just let nature take its course.

And that is a sad thing because PvP could be much better and greater than it now is to the joy for many many players.

Maura_Neysa

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Because a whole new class which is particularly PvP strong doesn't count? Or what about whole new sets, those don't count either?

Now a new class and new sets are PVP updates? Wut? So you are telling me that if ZOS stopped introducing any dungeons or trials and just gave you sets, you would be satisfied and say "nice, so much PVE content". lol.

Several of the best PvE sets come from Cryodiil. New class? hell yes, its changed a lot about PvP completly shifted the balance.

Personally I think they need to stop being separate worlds. Why is the war only in Cryodiil. Why isn't the War also in Eastmarch. Control PvP through military status and make it everywhere except instances. Then EVERY update would be to both. PvP orientate people could go run regular quest and look for the enemies everywhere. For the exceptionally good players, it would add in the whole new element of having to watch your back. If you got tired of it, go On Leave. It would also blur the line Dueling at Shrines and full on Cryodiil uptop. More like Sewers farming,

You are now touching on a whole new subject. Thats not the point and something like that is realistically impossible to do. You cant force every player in the game to participate in PVP. You missed the premise completely. Join the Military and PvP anywhere you want. Don't join and go anywhere you want with no PvP worries

Several PVE sets come from PVP? Really you seriously want to discuss that? Literally 90%+ of the best PVP sets come from PVE. This isnt a debate about PVE vs PVP and im not sure why u are trying to make it one. My point is that things are changing in PvP because of Sets. Do you mean you want a new way to Zerg? Do you want a new way to small scale PvP. Does Battle Grounds not count? That was also only 9 months ago. Do you just wants some new PvE content in Cryodiil? Cause thats still PvE

My point was that new skills/sets are not considered PVP or PVE updates. If that were true then they could literally stop adding anything in PVP or PVE cause every patch they introduce new sets. That doesnt make any sense. Adding a new trial/dungeons is a PVE content/update. Not introducing new sets. Same with PVP. Shifting the "meta" with a couple of sets or a couple of combat changes isnt a PVP update. Again, exactly what do you want than, just new places to PvE while in a PvP zone?

Again that wouldnt work. It sounds nice but there is simply not enough PVP population to sustain something like that and there would need to be massive changes for rewards, motives, objectives etc to even encourage you to do that. The irony is that something like that would be a PVP update. Which is precisely the point. When are we going to get one?

And we are not even touching on the backlash it would receive from PVE players. I mean, they complain because two players have the audacity to duel in the city because "it breaks their immersion". Imagine making the entire world a PVP area. Lets just say that this is a risk that ZOS is not going to take and tbh we dont even need something that big.

What we are asking is simply showing that they even care. Something more than just adding a stupid flag.

Cyrodiil is prety much the same since launch. Its designed for a game that doesnt even exist anymore. Performance is trash, gameplay is trash, the map is too big, half of it is wasted, no one cares about objectives, layout of keeps is the same. IC is empty, there is literally no point to go there. There are hundreds of posts in the forums with suggestions to make them better and videos showing the wasted opportunities in cyrodiil. Not just random ideas. Posts with a deep overhaul of the alliance war to make it better. Even right now there is an ongoing thread with suggestions for an overhaul of the alliance war. Suggestions that people spent days and weeks to come up with.

BGs is the only thing they bother to adjust every now and then (because morrowind is obviously not free) with a couple of changes like once a year and even that has major issues, the queue system is so screwed up, leaderboards are bad, game modes also have their issues and people have been asking forever to do something to make them better.

Not just a random idea. Its the way an old MMO I played did PvP.
Ironically it would actually reduce the number of Duelers lagging out high traffic areas. Though it does open up some Gank roosts.
Not exactly breaking immersion considering the whole game is set in the middle of a massive Alliance AND Deadric war. At least 50% of the quest out there are "Please help me stop the other Alliance" quest.
True it would be a huge risk on paper. Not sure its really that big a risk considering the actual PvP population though.

Biro123

Vrienda wrote: »

PvPers get enough already.

What? Have you even looked at the content PVE vs PVP in the last 5 DLC/chapters?

To be honest, I don't think we should have PVP DLC. I think BG's were a failure - espeicially since other games do them so much better. Duels only appeal to a few and even then only as a 'side'. Not to mention that PVP relies on a critical mass of players - and diluting them over multiple PVP 'flavours' can be a bad thing.

What ESO does best is open-world PVP - better than any other game out there (which is why I get triggered by all the clueless posts calling for it to be removed from ESO cos there are 'other games') ..

All that I want to see from Zos is a revamp of Cyrodill - which has to be core, not a DLC or chapter. Something to re-scale it, tweak keep positions, perhaps add new rulesets that can change from campaign to campaign - some which may encourage more spreading out..
Just anything that shows that it is no on the 'de-invest list'.

It won't spoil anyone's precious PVE - it won't impact balance.. (even though many PVE-ers don't seem to want balance) - it will only impact stuff in cyrodiil - siege mechanics - flow of battle, sizes of zergs etc...

Why can't we ask for nice stuff without getting jumped on by the PVE-only crowd?

Stewart1874

I hate PVP. Everytime I play it, I get suckerpunched by a nightblade and have my health melted in the recovery time.

Its not fun. PVE is the only way I can enjoy the game. DLC purely for PVP isn't attractive to me at all.

Maryal

After IC (pve content in an area that allowed pvp)

You got dueling ... something that marks out a 1v1 pvp zone within any pve content ... just to duel. You can do this almost anywhere, anytime, as often as you wish .... no matter how many people it annoys.

After dueling, you got BGs

After BGs you got more BG areas

Then you got better BG rewards

So, why won't there be a pvp focused dlc? Probably as a result of the way pvp'ers treat pve'ers trying to do pve questing in IC.

Biro123

Stewart1874 wrote: »

I hate PVP. Everytime I play it, I get suckerpunched by a nightblade and have my health melted in the recovery time.

Its not fun. PVE is the only way I can enjoy the game. DLC purely for PVP isn't attractive to me at all.

I get that - but you have to also see the other side. PVP is the only way that I can enjoy the game. Yet aside from IC, every single DLC has been purely (or almost purely) PVE. Surely its not too much to ask to get some PVP focus every now and then.?

RobbieRocket

I think there is a new PvP zone in the pipelines.

I find these threads hard to take seriously when people throw statements so semantic in their delivery that they do not add up to any kind of reality.

- 30 months since PvP DLC
- IC was only PvP DLC

Battlegrounds and the new game modes since (sorry, I'm not falling for Chapters/DLC absurd argument, Morrowind was downloadable content), then of course Duelling

Anhedonie

What type of content is *** battlegrounds?
Which were updated with the new set of maps like...what, a month or 2 ago?

Xeven

We wanted structured pvp with leagues, seasons, ranks, and tournaments. We got 4v4 capture the flag.

Feanor

Anhedonie wrote: »

What type of content is *** battlegrounds?
Which were updated with the new set of maps like...what, a month or 2 ago?

You mean the Battlegrounds that were unplayable for six weeks after launch? Sorry, a new Battleground Map isn’t new “content” - it’s just a different surrounding with the same available game modes.

Would you call Wayrest Sewers new content if it were just set with the interior of City of Ash but everything else including the bosses was the same?

I find it funny PvE players question if the announced Summerset zone and jewelry crafting along with the Psijic skill line is “enough” content when bread crumbs are obviously considered a large feast when it comes to PvP.

pieratsos

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Because a whole new class which is particularly PvP strong doesn't count? Or what about whole new sets, those don't count either?

Now a new class and new sets are PVP updates? Wut? So you are telling me that if ZOS stopped introducing any dungeons or trials and just gave you sets, you would be satisfied and say "nice, so much PVE content". lol.

Several of the best PvE sets come from Cryodiil. New class? hell yes, its changed a lot about PvP completly shifted the balance.

Personally I think they need to stop being separate worlds. Why is the war only in Cryodiil. Why isn't the War also in Eastmarch. Control PvP through military status and make it everywhere except instances. Then EVERY update would be to both. PvP orientate people could go run regular quest and look for the enemies everywhere. For the exceptionally good players, it would add in the whole new element of having to watch your back. If you got tired of it, go On Leave. It would also blur the line Dueling at Shrines and full on Cryodiil uptop. More like Sewers farming,

You are now touching on a whole new subject. Thats not the point and something like that is realistically impossible to do. You cant force every player in the game to participate in PVP. You missed the premise completely. Join the Military and PvP anywhere you want. Don't join and go anywhere you want with no PvP worries

Several PVE sets come from PVP? Really you seriously want to discuss that? Literally 90%+ of the best PVP sets come from PVE. This isnt a debate about PVE vs PVP and im not sure why u are trying to make it one. My point is that things are changing in PvP because of Sets. Do you mean you want a new way to Zerg? Do you want a new way to small scale PvP. Does Battle Grounds not count? That was also only 9 months ago. Do you just wants some new PvE content in Cryodiil? Cause thats still PvE

My point was that new skills/sets are not considered PVP or PVE updates. If that were true then they could literally stop adding anything in PVP or PVE cause every patch they introduce new sets. That doesnt make any sense. Adding a new trial/dungeons is a PVE content/update. Not introducing new sets. Same with PVP. Shifting the "meta" with a couple of sets or a couple of combat changes isnt a PVP update. Again, exactly what do you want than, just new places to PvE while in a PvP zone?

Again that wouldnt work. It sounds nice but there is simply not enough PVP population to sustain something like that and there would need to be massive changes for rewards, motives, objectives etc to even encourage you to do that. The irony is that something like that would be a PVP update. Which is precisely the point. When are we going to get one?

And we are not even touching on the backlash it would receive from PVE players. I mean, they complain because two players have the audacity to duel in the city because "it breaks their immersion". Imagine making the entire world a PVP area. Lets just say that this is a risk that ZOS is not going to take and tbh we dont even need something that big.

What we are asking is simply showing that they even care. Something more than just adding a stupid flag.

Cyrodiil is prety much the same since launch. Its designed for a game that doesnt even exist anymore. Performance is trash, gameplay is trash, the map is too big, half of it is wasted, no one cares about objectives, layout of keeps is the same. IC is empty, there is literally no point to go there. There are hundreds of posts in the forums with suggestions to make them better and videos showing the wasted opportunities in cyrodiil. Not just random ideas. Posts with a deep overhaul of the alliance war to make it better. Even right now there is an ongoing thread with suggestions for an overhaul of the alliance war. Suggestions that people spent days and weeks to come up with.

BGs is the only thing they bother to adjust every now and then (because morrowind is obviously not free) with a couple of changes like once a year and even that has major issues, the queue system is so screwed up, leaderboards are bad, game modes also have their issues and people have been asking forever to do something to make them better.

Not just a random idea. Its the way an old MMO I played did PvP.
Ironically it would actually reduce the number of Duelers lagging out high traffic areas. Though it does open up some Gank roosts.
Not exactly breaking immersion considering the whole game is set in the middle of a massive Alliance AND Deadric war. At least 50% of the quest out there are "Please help me stop the other Alliance" quest.
True it would be a huge risk on paper. Not sure its really that big a risk considering the actual PvP population though.

I did not disagree with ur idea. That wasnt my point. I actually said that it sounds nice. The idea of questing randomly and suddenly being in a PVP fight creating dynamic fights everywhere is brilliant. Its actually similar with the justice PVP system that was once announced and PVP players went batsh*t crazy when they heard it but it got scrapped from development because of the risks in PVE. And in the forums it did receive backlash from PVE players for whatever reason even tho participating in it is optional. For some weird reason when they listen to the word "PVP" their blood starts boiling. Thats why i told you that ZOS is just not gonna do that.

But ur whole idea is the point of this thread. You suggested a PVP update and this is the issue. We never get one. With the exception of BGs which was also implemented poorly but at least it was an update, every other PVP "update" was just to plant a couple of flags and call it a day. As if putting a flag somewhere on the map is going to change anything. People dont even care about the objectives of cyrodiil. Thats how stupid it is.

They dont need to do something fancy. Just changing something in cyro every now and then to spice things up. Change the objective, change the layout of keeps or the map somehow, small events idk just something. Its literally the same since launch now and they dont even have issues with allowing game breaking bugs and glitches going for weeks. Its as if cyrodiil doesnt even exist for them.

DurzoBlint13

Id be happy if they ever get Cyrodil to work right- by that I mean GREATLY reduced lag, freezes and Load Screens. I love PvP but it gets frustrating sitting in 10min load screens every time you try to move to another keep, die, a keep flips, an EP zerg arrives, or a fly farts the wrong direction

Algraxa

Would love to see PVE and PVP happy and healthy.... and SEPARATED. Balancing PvP is a problem when you try to do it for PvE at the same time.

Just tired of nerfs to classes due to PvP exploits.

Priyasekarssk

RobbieRocket wrote: »

I think there is a new PvP zone in the pipelines.

I find these threads hard to take seriously when people throw statements so semantic in their delivery that they do not add up to any kind of reality.

- 30 months since PvP DLC
- IC was only PvP DLC

Battlegrounds and the new game modes since (sorry, I'm not falling for Chapters/DLC absurd argument, Morrowind was downloadable content), then of course Duelling

FIrst populate existing PVP zones. All 1 bars all the time. PVP is dead.

Lynx7386

Considering every patch jacks up the game to try and appease pvpers, I think you'll get over it.

idk

The game is predominantly PvE ad ha always been. PvP has been added twice with the second addition, BGs, getting new maps and designs included with DLCs.

So in the end OPs statement is true only when taken into an extremely narrow context.