Drop the CP cap to 600 and that's it until the system is reworked

Vapirko

But you run into the issue of endgame progression. There’s no feeling of upward mobility and the game would become far more static. I think part of the issue is CP is way too easy to get. You should stop getting all this enlightenment and crap after you hit a certain CP level or something.

DoctorESO

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TheMystid

They increase CP cap in order to make Hybrid builds viable.

Joy_Division

code65536 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

Please explain how CP is broken?

I wouldnt know where to begin and where to end. Everything in this game is getting nerfed over and over and over again because CP gives too much power. Classes are getting destroyed patch after patch to compensate for CP power. Raise CP cap -> nerf CP -> Raise CP cap -> nerf CP -> repeat. An endless cycle that leads no where, balance is out of control, everyone is OP, everyone is a noob.

And all because of a system that was supposed to give you options to customize ur character. There is nothing fun about it, its just numbers on a screen, people called it from the beginning that it was going to be broken and yet they keep on trying to fix it by following that endless cycle that leads no where.

I dont disagree entirely but there has to be some incentive for long term players and if its just some number who cares.
I dont really think CP is the bigggest problem ESO has and i really dont think another huge poin tless change would fix anything. First the problem was veteran ranks being to hard to obtain and now its the CP systems fault.

Maybe just play something else if its so horrible (not meant for the person i quote specifically).

But he's right about CP sucking the life out of the classes. Why did they gut class sustain in MW? Because the CP system made it all to easy. Beside that, the ordinary CPs are rather boring. +X% DoT damage, -Y% direct dmg taken. Very bland.

Like I said, get rid of CP, give classes back their old power and uniqueness, implement a system that is based around passives like tactician, windrunner, treasure hunter etc., designed in a way where you have to make choices. Could just as well be passives that change skills a bit, e.g. turns physical into magickal dmg (just an obscure thought, but would be interesting, opens up diversity and pleases the hybrid crowd).

They didn't gut class sustain in Morrowind. They cut sustain in various ways. Most notably, by eliminating most of the sustain from CP. Now CP gives, at most, 15% of your base regeneration. That's pitifully low. Other ways they cut sustain was from armor passives (not class), nerfing elemental drain (not class), and nerfing orbs into the ground (not class). The only class nerfs were Repentence no longer giving stamina to allies and Siphoning Attacks no longer restoring both resources.

And the power creep? Yes, the damage stars in CP are quite strong. But so are the defense stars. As far as PvP goes, this means that people of similar CP are pretty balanced against each other. In PvE, though, the CP is felt more greatly since your enemies don't harder to counteract your defensive CP, and they don't get extra defenses to counteract your offensive CP. But then again, all the balance nerfs are based on PvP complaints, and in PvP, the damage/defense stars being nearly mirror images of each other mean everything just cancels each other out.

The bigger source of power creep isn't CP, but skill improvements. I remember when vMA first came out on the PTS. People complained about the vMA destruction staff being worthless because nobody in their right mind would use Wall of Elements. It was just such a worthless skill. Back then, one of the top magicka Nightblade scores on PC/NA used a resto staff on his front bar because it did more damage than a destro. Back then, there were very few DoTs that were viable. But things have changed. Underperforming skills were buffed and made more interesting. Skill rotations have grown more complex, richer, and more powerful as a result. These are good changes, as they result in more engaging gameplay (instead of just spamming one skill over and over), but it also results in a lot of power creep.

Yes, there have been problems with CP. But they've been largely addressed in the past year. The extreme diminishing returns, the better mirroring of offensive and defensive stars. The gutting of CP sustain. The system is fine, and people who claim that CP is what's destroying the game are just scapegoating at this point.

Oh no no. The CP system is big culprit here

At Launch, Spear Shards restored 25% [!] of a players stamina and restored and addition stamina over 10 seconds. Now it restores a flat value less than 4,000.

The CP system is responsible for the following Templar skills and passives getting nerfed: Focused Charge, Spear Shards, Puncturing Sweeps, Sun Shield (lol), Eclipse, Radiant Destruction, Rite of Passage, Breath of Life, Repentance, Cleansing Ritual, Mending, Sacred Ground. And this isn't even counting skills like Restoring Focus and Empowering Sweep that now offer less protection because of diminishing returns caused by the Champion System.

Here's the list of under-performing Templar skills Wrobel buffed: Backlash.

That being said, I do not agree with the Original Poster's suggestion of capping CP at 600. It's a dumb system, it's an ill-thought out system, it's a boring system, but it is the system we are stuck with so either it stays in its current form or (ideally) gets removed completely.

Arthg

There are so many ways to maintain a sense of progression: unlockable motifs; mounts; dyes; zones; arenas (for instance for 2, 3, 6 people); dungeons (no gear, just achievements); possibility to apply more dyes for each piece of armour; better rngs; mount speed; something akin to the treasure hunter passive; number of objects in a home; inventory space...

Anything not combat-related, really.

Rianai

Arthg wrote: »

There are so many ways to maintain a sense of progression: unlockable motifs; mounts; dyes; zones; arenas (for instance for 2, 3, 6 people); dungeons (no gear, just achievements); possibility to apply more dyes for each piece of armour; better rngs; mount speed; something akin to the treasure hunter passive; number of objects in a home; inventory space...

Anything not combat-related, really.

So much this!

I really don't understand, what's so appealing with growing numbers, to the point where players claim they would quit the game without said numbers. Progression could be so much more interesting, without the need of powercreep and granting players an advantage over others in combat, just because they are playing the game for a longer time.

idk

pattyLtd wrote: »

Please explain how CP is broken?

Yes, this.

It is easy to create a thread to complain about something. The challenge is actually providing information that truly supports the claim rather than an emotional response.

Ragnarock41

it only exists for ''Muh progression'' players.

they could totally remove it and give everyone else %20 bonus stats, sustain etc.. but nope.

too late for that.

TimeDazzler

idk wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

Please explain how CP is broken?

Yes, this.

It is easy to create a thread to complain about something. The challenge is actually providing information that truly supports the claim rather than an emotional response.

Because I don't have time to write a 9000 word essay that's how much is wrong with it. Do some research. play the game and you will see. If you want the quick and easy just watch a fengrush rant video or countless other streams who've quit/practically quit, because of it. It's like riding a bike with training wheels at the age of 30. No emotional response bull *** from me I'm being serious and that's a good analogy. And as others have said the system is dull and boring, nothing unique about it, but people are too afraid of change i.e. a new system that also has that feeling of progression they desire.

TimeDazzler

Derra wrote: »

Name says it all has rarely been more fitting.

That's the point of the name Einstein

victoriana-blue

code65536 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

Please explain how CP is broken?

I wouldnt know where to begin and where to end. Everything in this game is getting nerfed over and over and over again because CP gives too much power. Classes are getting destroyed patch after patch to compensate for CP power. Raise CP cap -> nerf CP -> Raise CP cap -> nerf CP -> repeat. An endless cycle that leads no where, balance is out of control, everyone is OP, everyone is a noob.

And all because of a system that was supposed to give you options to customize ur character. There is nothing fun about it, its just numbers on a screen, people called it from the beginning that it was going to be broken and yet they keep on trying to fix it by following that endless cycle that leads no where.

I dont disagree entirely but there has to be some incentive for long term players and if its just some number who cares.
I dont really think CP is the bigggest problem ESO has and i really dont think another huge poin tless change would fix anything. First the problem was veteran ranks being to hard to obtain and now its the CP systems fault.

Maybe just play something else if its so horrible (not meant for the person i quote specifically).

But he's right about CP sucking the life out of the classes. Why did they gut class sustain in MW? Because the CP system made it all to easy. Beside that, the ordinary CPs are rather boring. +X% DoT damage, -Y% direct dmg taken. Very bland.

Like I said, get rid of CP, give classes back their old power and uniqueness, implement a system that is based around passives like tactician, windrunner, treasure hunter etc., designed in a way where you have to make choices. Could just as well be passives that change skills a bit, e.g. turns physical into magickal dmg (just an obscure thought, but would be interesting, opens up diversity and pleases the hybrid crowd).

They didn't gut class sustain in Morrowind. They cut sustain in various ways. Most notably, by eliminating most of the sustain from CP. Now CP gives, at most, 15% of your base regeneration. That's pitifully low. Other ways they cut sustain was from armor passives (not class), nerfing elemental drain (not class), and nerfing orbs into the ground (not class). The only class nerfs were Repentence no longer giving stamina to allies and Siphoning Attacks no longer restoring both resources.

And the power creep? Yes, the damage stars in CP are quite strong. But so are the defense stars. As far as PvP goes, this means that people of similar CP are pretty balanced against each other. In PvE, though, the CP is felt more greatly since your enemies don't harder to counteract your defensive CP, and they don't get extra defenses to counteract your offensive CP. But then again, all the balance nerfs are based on PvP complaints, and in PvP, the damage/defense stars being nearly mirror images of each other mean everything just cancels each other out.

The bigger source of power creep isn't CP, but skill improvements. I remember when vMA first came out on the PTS. People complained about the vMA destruction staff being worthless because nobody in their right mind would use Wall of Elements. It was just such a worthless skill. Back then, one of the top magicka Nightblade scores on PC/NA used a resto staff on his front bar because it did more damage than a destro. Back then, there were very few DoTs that were viable. But things have changed. Underperforming skills were buffed and made more interesting. Skill rotations have grown more complex, richer, and more powerful as a result. These are good changes, as they result in more engaging gameplay (instead of just spamming one skill over and over), but it also results in a lot of power creep.

Yes, there have been problems with CP. But they've been largely addressed in the past year. The extreme diminishing returns, the better mirroring of offensive and defensive stars. The gutting of CP sustain. The system is fine, and people who claim that CP is what's destroying the game are just scapegoating at this point.

For completeness' sake, I'd like to point out that ZOS also switched siphoning attacks from proccing on direct damage attacks (with return chance better when you hit more targets).. To being tied to hitting a light or heavy weave, with a smaller resource return per proc, and it now costs the resource you want to return. It's like a poor version of the old Leeching Strikes toggle, the morph that not even most tanks used.

Siphoning attacks was absolutely over-performing and needed to be adjusted on top of the CP sustain changes, but it really did gut sustain for nightblades who weren't dps. There's a reason even the dedicated nb tank theory crafters like Invellous and Gilliam stopped saying"vMoL approved" on their builds after Morrowind.

Anotherone773 wrote: »

* The current system isnt broken, its just terrible. Its unimaginative and boring.
* They removed the grind from leveling up by removing the sense of accomplishment and the feeling that you are getting somewhere.
* Diminishing returns further diminish a sense of accomplishment or the desire to progress.
* All player characters are like identical twins, almost exactly the same with a few differences some of those made by choices but basically all roughly the same.
* i wont get into all the drawbacks of the current system.

In an ideal world, i would love to see a character/skill system like Rift. A lot of options on a single character and the ability to swap fairly quickly between different skill sets allows you to swap between sub classes each have distinct abilities, strengths and weaknesses. Characters actually have character. In ESO, characters dont have character, they have costumes and outfits, so we can play dress up.

But that will never happen so instead id like to see:

* The removal of enlightenment and diminishing returns. People need to stop expecting everything to be handed to them. Its a terrible trait. Part of the game is effort = reward, not logging in = reward.
* The removal of the CP system.
* All CP converted into 50 additional levels.
* All current gear adjusted for the levels.
* One Tamriel stays in place for current content. So you can still level anywhere with anyone in what is available right now.
* All new content will be a level system with DLCs adding 5 or 10 MEANINGFUL levels and Chapters adding 10-30 MEANINGFUL levels.
* The zone mobs will have actual levels. This means you may encounter mobs that are actually tough or mobs that you can one shot.
* Players above 100 will be leveled down in stats, abilities, and gear while in the OT content.
* Players below a zones level will NOT level up to the mob levels. So you will probably get stomped by that level 110 mud crab at level 60.
* I would also like to see a real stat system. Im not a fan of this generic stat system of health/stam/mag that Bethesda switched their ES games too. But i know that has a snowballs chance even if the other changes were somehow to be made.

Tamriel could definitely do with a greater variety of monsters and difficulties, relative to the player levels. I like that I can level while doing whatever I please, but the diminishing returns mean that as a max CP player I'm not particularly excited to spending another 30CP in Dragon Bones.

That said, I strongly disagree with making new content not battle-levelled/scaled. Right now, if I left for six months by the time I came back my gear wouldn't be BiS anymore but it would still be effective outside of competitive PvE. I could pick up where I left off, with some adjustments to skills & rotation. If the new content forced actual level grinding, once I took a break I would never come back because I would need gear and levels in order to get the other gear and levels I was missing. It would run counter to ZOS' model of "get people to come back for a month or two of be content, let them take a break, then reel 'em back in with the next update." Besides, if someone got a friend interested because of e.g. Morrowind, 1) they should still be able to play together, and 2) the new player isn't going to grind levels for thirty hours just so they can see some mushrooms, they're going to choose another game.

idk

Cries wrote: »

idk wrote: »

pattyLtd wrote: »

Please explain how CP is broken?

Yes, this.

It is easy to create a thread to complain about something. The challenge is actually providing information that truly supports the claim rather than an emotional response.

Because I don't have time to write a 9000 word essay that's how much is wrong with it. Do some research. play the game and you will see. If you want the quick and easy just watch a fengrush rant video or countless other streams who've quit/practically quit, because of it. It's like riding a bike with training wheels at the age of 30. No emotional response bull *** from me I'm being serious and that's a good analogy. And as others have said the system is dull and boring, nothing unique about it, but people are too afraid of change i.e. a new system that also has that feeling of progression they desire.

It is not about writing a 9000 word essay. That would probably be way to long. It is about doing something to support your opinion. One sentence to that point would be a significant improvement. You provided Zero information in your OP to Zos which in the end which makes it nothing more than a rant.

Faulgor

DoctorESO wrote: »

The CP keeps getting increased to give max CP players a sense of progression. Stagnation = no logins.

What progression? Once you hit the cap, you're alway at cap if you just play the game normally. I have over 830 CP, I'd have to stop playing for over a year to be able to "progress" again. Logging in after an update and having 30 moire points to spend doesn't give any sense of progression.

What they should do is decide on a finite cap, and redesign the whole passives to make people chose between damage, sustain or defense. The current system doesn't enforce any choice besides magicka or stamina.

Smmokkee

Cap at a 300

WakeYourGhost

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

its a dumb, sad, poor, worthless excuse of a system and some of the most boring "progression" I have ever seen in an MMO.

More boring than the usual “Hit a flat Level wall, grind out top gear, wait for new top gear to make yours irrelevant with a few extra points in stats, grind that out” stuff?

What's the difference between:
"hit a flat level wall, grind gear... wait...grind new gear"
and
"hit cp wall, grind gear...wait...grind new gear (and cp)"?

Literally one extra step and a hint more of feeling like your time got you something, at least.

pieratsos

pattyLtd wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Vet ranks were a different story. We didnt have xp pots, training gear was working differently and didnt give more xp, u needed 1m+ for every rank and you had to do it on every single character.... like joy said, if you constantly get more and more and more power then you are never really at end game. And the problems are going to get even bigger the more the cp we get.

Oh i agree on the veteran ranks i am very glad they are gone but i dont see the huge problem with the CP system personally but i havent analyzed or done math or anything. I just play a videogame.

Isnt’t end game doing the hardest content in the game?
Because if its max level then i guess i reached end game but if its clearing vmol and the later trials on vet then i have not.

Edit: tried to shorten quote train but caused problem haha

Well if you just look at this patch alone, you quickly realise what CP has been doing to the game this whole time. Look at the atro change. They made it scale with CP which is obviously an overall buff to the ability. But the funny thing is that CP scaling gave so much more power to the ability, to the point where they had to actually nerf the base dmg of the ability just to keep it in check. And the sad part is that there is plenty of PVP content that is actually without CP. In fact, the majority of PVP is without CP. Its just impossible to balance the game like this. This is happening for years now.

PVE also has its issues because of the huge power creep. Everything is too hard, everything is too easy. We went from normal and vet mode to normal, vet and vet hard mode. Now we need an even harder mode while there are people who actually find vet dungeons really hard. I mean what the hell is going on. Your question about end game is actually really funny cause thats just the thing. What is actually end game if you are never at max level.

The whole point of the CP system was to give character progression so you always "have a reason to log in". But where exactly is character progression. Ive been at CP cap for years. Its just a boring system that is not even doing what it was supposed to be doing. Its not even friendly for new players. What is even the point of increasing cp cap if everything has to get nerfed every patch. It just doesnt make any sense.

ValkynSketha

Please explain how CP is broken?

code65536

Joy_Division wrote: »

At Launch, Spear Shards restored 25% [!] of a players stamina and restored and addition stamina over 10 seconds. Now it restores a flat value less than 4,000.

And how exactly is that CP's fault? Every bit of sustain that was keyed to a % of max stat was changed to a flat value (except Consuming Soul Trap... shhh, don't let them know). Ostensibly, this was to rein in the double benefits of resource stacking. Whether you agree with this or not, it's quite a stretch to invoke the CP boogeyman.

Joy_Division wrote: »

The CP system is responsible for the following Templar skills and passives getting nerfed: Focused Charge, Spear Shards, Puncturing Sweeps, Sun Shield (lol), Eclipse, Radiant Destruction, Rite of Passage, Breath of Life, Repentance, Cleansing Ritual, Mending, Sacred Ground.

Yes, there have been a lot of class nerfs. But, again, how is that the fault of CP? Surely the removal of stuns and CC from Templar skills isn't CP related.

I think a lot of people pin combat balance issues on CP, whether or not they are actually warranted. Some are. But most are not.

DoctorESO

.

DoctorESO

.

Prizax

Do you even understand and know the meaning of real MMORPGS? It is where you can keep leveling without a limit...

Anhedonie

CP system doesn't need to be reworked. It has to go.

code65536

DoctorESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

At Launch, Spear Shards restored 25% [!] of a players stamina and restored and addition stamina over 10 seconds. Now it restores a flat value less than 4,000.

And how exactly is that CP's fault?

I think Joy_Division is referring to the power creep caused by higher and higher CP caps, which then lead to skill nerfs.

And CP is only a part of that power creep--one that has increasingly diminishing returns. Where's the talk about weapons skills and passives that are buffed into relevance? Where's the talk about itemization changes--the days before CP were also days when not all sets were available at all levels in all traits in all slots, and most builds were frankenbuilds of partial 2p or 3p subsets. It is a gross mischaracterization of this game's combat design history to pin everything on CP when CP is just one part--and arguably a smaller part after Morrowind revamped the CP system--of the puzzle.

As I stated earlier in the thread. Too many people just treat CP as the boogeyman upon which everything is blamed. Sure, CP deserves some of the blame. But to hoist it up as Public Enemy No. 1 is woefully naïve and misguided.

Saint_Bud

But i have nearly 1000cp and there are people out there that have much more. Why we cant use them?
And as a player with this cp i want that they remove cp. And to all the player witch wants to remove the cap i can said, i played once witch a player that have over 1000cp befor there were a cap in the game. It was absolut not fair.

Emma_Overload

Cries wrote: »

Can someone please explain why this broken system receives a 30 point buff every major update? Like who tf is actually asking for a cap increase... I know im opening a can of worms here but I swear if someone comments "please explain how CP is broken" im gonna lose it. Rework the system already, diminishing returns was a good start but if you keep increasing the cap every patch what was the point of introducing diminishing returns to begin with.

Most players don't think it's a "broken system". The forums are full of hysterical crybabies, but in-game players are happily grinding their CP. My guildies (and zone chat) request partners for Skyreach all the time.

pieratsos

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Can someone please explain why this broken system receives a 30 point buff every major update? Like who tf is actually asking for a cap increase... I know im opening a can of worms here but I swear if someone comments "please explain how CP is broken" im gonna lose it. Rework the system already, diminishing returns was a good start but if you keep increasing the cap every patch what was the point of introducing diminishing returns to begin with.

Most players don't think it's a "broken system". The forums are full of hysterical crybabies, but in-game players are happily grinding their CP. My guildies (and zone chat) request partners for Skyreach all the time.

Yes people are grinding CP cause they need it. That doesnt make the system good. You are making no sense.

DoctorESO

.

Ep1kMalware

Rianai wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

There are so many ways to maintain a sense of progression: unlockable motifs; mounts; dyes; zones; arenas (for instance for 2, 3, 6 people); dungeons (no gear, just achievements); possibility to apply more dyes for each piece of armour; better rngs; mount speed; something akin to the treasure hunter passive; number of objects in a home; inventory space...

Anything not combat-related, really.

So much this!

I really don't understand, what's so appealing with growing numbers, to the point where players claim they would quit the game without said numbers. Progression could be so much more interesting, without the need of powercreep and granting players an advantage over others in combat, just because they are playing the game for a longer time.

Wut? It's unfair to be more powerful at anhigher level? Why not remove levels alltogether then -.-

Joy_Division

code65536 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

At Launch, Spear Shards restored 25% [!] of a players stamina and restored and addition stamina over 10 seconds. Now it restores a flat value less than 4,000.

And how exactly is that CP's fault? Every bit of sustain that was keyed to a % of max stat was changed to a flat value (except Consuming Soul Trap... shhh, don't let them know). Ostensibly, this was to rein in the double benefits of resource stacking. Whether you agree with this or not, it's quite a stretch to invoke the CP boogeyman.

Joy_Division wrote: »

The CP system is responsible for the following Templar skills and passives getting nerfed: Focused Charge, Spear Shards, Puncturing Sweeps, Sun Shield (lol), Eclipse, Radiant Destruction, Rite of Passage, Breath of Life, Repentance, Cleansing Ritual, Mending, Sacred Ground.

Yes, there have been a lot of class nerfs. But, again, how is that the fault of CP? Surely the removal of stuns and CC from Templar skills isn't CP related.

I think a lot of people pin combat balance issues on CP, whether or not they are actually warranted. Some are. But most are not.

It's CPs fault the resource return in Spear Shards got nerfed because the CP system amped passive regeneration so much that, as the devs put it, people could build for max damage and have infinite sustain. The flat value change was another nerf done for the same reason. CP amps our power, ZoS reacts by nerfing our class.

My other skills were nerfed because PvPers who played the Champion System kept telling the Devs that Templars were unkillable healbots who could then turn around and laser people down with Jesus Beam, which had no counterplay.

All my healing skills and passives were reduced because the CP sytem gave multiple % amp boosts. Repetnece was nerfed because the devs were on a witch hunt for anything that restored resources (bc/ of CP) during Morrowind. Go ahead and check the notes for Thieves Guild: ZoS nerfed Puncturing Sweeps healing and would not allow said heals to crit because of "double dipping" in the champion System. Radiant Destruction has been nerfed numerous patches because it's so easy to get high damage numbers because of the CP system.

The CP System deserves all the blame and ridicule that players throw at it because it's a poorly though out system. All it does is provide generic percentage boosts and in many cases these overlap numerous times, which is practically putting down a Welcome Mat for the dreaded "power creep"

tplink3r1

It needs no reworking.