[EXPLOIT?] Can we talk about that shady thing that Stamina/Melee builds do?

Lord_Hev

idk if it was mentioned in the thread or not, too lazy to check.


@Emma_Overload Frag proc can only be launched when your character is physically facing the direction of your actual target. Same thing with overload. This is the clunky behavior you are experiencing, and this has been the case with frag procs and overload light attacks since the game's inception. So yes, a player can make frags hard to throw out if they cheesily strafe left and right you while you are snared or rooted. If done with enough speed and success, your character will twitch trying to face them appropriately to initiate the frag instant cast.

Ultimate_Overlord

Yes, @Emma_Overload, procced frags arent instant. I assume what frag proc does is reduce the cast time by 1s rather than remove it, this results in the skill still being considered as a cast time ability and having a couple milliseconds of cast time. You can see it clearly if you hold block and shoot a procced frag - your block will drop for a short time.

coplannb16_ESO

oh, I was thinking this thread would be about how "some" players are capable to use multiple skills in a timeframe of 1-2 seconds on you. Iam not talking about just LA/HA + incap strike + poison + proc sets... but more like incap strike + suprise attack + surprise attack (yes 2 times in a row) + killersblade + revers slash in those 2 seconds... happened couple times yesterday, always from the same player too...

Thogard

Also, fun fact, if they are lag glitching your skills by walking through you, try jumping. While you’re in mid air the game considers you to be facing all directions and walk through will not work.

The_Brosteen

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

The_Brosteen wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

No.

Someone runs a snare build lol

I have two skills that have snares on them(jabs/rending) if that's a snare build than I guess every almost every stamplar runs a snare build lol. Ive just played MMOs before and know that removing snares wont help the pvp situation only hurt it.

I agree snares shouldn't be completely removed but they definitely need major reworking either in the way they are applied (put them all in the major/minor system) or countered (add snare immunity to expedition maybe?)

I've said this before, but having few options for snare removal on magica classes and forward momentum having a more effective snare removal than shuffle needs to be looked at.

Being more mobile in heavy armor than medium on a stam build when it comes to snares seems pretty backwards.

Another option would be to include snare immunity with dodge rolling like it does for roots but then magica classes are still at a disadvantage.

I think adding a 5 sec snare immunity to major expidition would be a good way to go. Nbs, dks, wardens, sorcs, all have access to major expedition. Templars still have class purify. All stam builds would also have access through weapom skills too.

Savos_Saren

Thogard wrote: »

This tends to happen to me during laggy time periods when I’m using skills rapidly.

My working theory is that a delayed server-side check is undoing something that’s had its client-size animation already start.

I notice a lot of my dizzies and my reverse slices getting eaten up by this.

Reverse slice is the best example because it’s a skill that, if you animation cancel it, you can cause it to happen faster than it otherwise would. In order words, If you block cancel it, the damage hits the target sooner.

Now remember that people aren’t where they appear to be on your screen. You are seeing your location BEFORE server lag, and you are seeing the opponent’s location AFTER server lag and after your own lag. In other words, because your movements take time to arrive at the server, you are seeing where you will be, and you are seeing where your opponent WAS. Landing ground target aoes like Templar jabs or warden beetles or DK flame breath is hard during lag for this reason.

When you use an ability, there are two checks. A client side check and a server side check.

I believe that these deleted actions are occurring due to the location desync caused by this lag. You pass the client-side check so you begin the animation, but you fail the server-side check, so no damage is done.

If you get really good with movements you can greatly increase your opponent’s odds of failing one of these two checks. Because of the lag and location desync, it’s hard to pass a client side check and a server side check when both you and the target are moving... since those two checks will occur with you and your opponent at different locations...

You’ve probably seen someone trying to force this and not even realized it. I do it all the time, so do most PvP players. It’s that rapid strafing from left to right to left to right (repeat ad nauseum) while buffing or in melee. Works best with speed pots or sprinting.

It works because your client is doing a range check on one position, but the server is doing it on the other position. Because of the difference in distance between the two spots, one of those checks will fail unless you guessed which direction they’d move.They then time their attacks to occur in the middle.

Good stuff.

@DDuke This whole thread clarifies why I thought my Burning Embers was able to be dodged by Shuffle. As a matter of fact- it was @Thogard who I'd fight in BGs. On one of his builds- he runs Shuffle and, for the life of me, I couldn't tag him with Burning Embers. I just assumed that Embers were dodgable. Apparently- it's because of lag/walking through people.

Thanks for the clarification Thogard. And I'll make sure to add a jump in the next time I see you.

Thogard

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

This tends to happen to me during laggy time periods when I’m using skills rapidly.

My working theory is that a delayed server-side check is undoing something that’s had its client-size animation already start.

I notice a lot of my dizzies and my reverse slices getting eaten up by this.

Reverse slice is the best example because it’s a skill that, if you animation cancel it, you can cause it to happen faster than it otherwise would. In order words, If you block cancel it, the damage hits the target sooner.

Now remember that people aren’t where they appear to be on your screen. You are seeing your location BEFORE server lag, and you are seeing the opponent’s location AFTER server lag and after your own lag. In other words, because your movements take time to arrive at the server, you are seeing where you will be, and you are seeing where your opponent WAS. Landing ground target aoes like Templar jabs or warden beetles or DK flame breath is hard during lag for this reason.

When you use an ability, there are two checks. A client side check and a server side check.

I believe that these deleted actions are occurring due to the location desync caused by this lag. You pass the client-side check so you begin the animation, but you fail the server-side check, so no damage is done.

If you get really good with movements you can greatly increase your opponent’s odds of failing one of these two checks. Because of the lag and location desync, it’s hard to pass a client side check and a server side check when both you and the target are moving... since those two checks will occur with you and your opponent at different locations...

You’ve probably seen someone trying to force this and not even realized it. I do it all the time, so do most PvP players. It’s that rapid strafing from left to right to left to right (repeat ad nauseum) while buffing or in melee. Works best with speed pots or sprinting.

It works because your client is doing a range check on one position, but the server is doing it on the other position. Because of the difference in distance between the two spots, one of those checks will fail unless you guessed which direction they’d move.They then time their attacks to occur in the middle.

Good stuff.

@DDuke This whole thread clarifies why I thought my Burning Embers was able to be dodged by Shuffle. As a matter of fact- it was @Thogard who I'd fight in BGs. On one of his builds- he runs Shuffle and, for the life of me, I couldn't tag him with Burning Embers. I just assumed that Embers were dodgable. Apparently- it's because of lag/walking through people.

Thanks for the clarification Thogard. And I'll make sure to add a jump in the next time I see you.

fun fact - i haven't had shuffle on my bar in over 6 months.

Domander

On the flip side, abilities like dizzying swing will often go through dodge roll and have super extended range for the same reason.

FearlessOne_2014

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Kode wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

You should add a screenshot, people will not trust you

Unfortunately, a screenshot wouldn't really show anything except me standing in front another player. A video would be better, except that I use a mouse to fire my abilities instead of a keyboard, which means that you can't see the button icon for the Crystal Frag being depressed. Sometimes you CAN see my toon jerking her arms rapidly as I furiously spam the button, as if the Frag cast keeps getting aborted just as it starts.

Seriously? You click your abilities?

Haven't you ever seen an MMO mouse? They're amazing! Mine has plenty of side buttons for abilities... much easier than using the keyboard, in my opinion.

Once you go MMO Gaming mouse. You can never go back!

https://i.imgur.com/0lMXMjv.jpg

cazlonb16_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

Also, fun fact, if they are lag glitching your skills by walking through you, try jumping. While you’re in mid air the game considers you to be facing all directions and walk through will not work.

Weapon swap will not work and most skills will not fire ( only delayed ones plus for some reason or other dawnbreaker ) when I'm in the air though, so I'm not sure how that would help.

Sharee

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Also, fun fact, if they are lag glitching your skills by walking through you, try jumping. While you’re in mid air the game considers you to be facing all directions and walk through will not work.

Weapon swap will not work and most skills will not fire ( only delayed ones plus for some reason or other dawnbreaker ) when I'm in the air though, so I'm not sure how that would help.

From my experience, there are two different "in the air" states. One is the result of jumping, one is the result of falling.

Falling disables everything, but jumping does not. If you jump from a keep wall, you will still be able to use abilities while rising into the air, and falling down up to the point where you would hit the ground again (were you jumping on flat ground), and only after you start falling below your starting point do your abilities get disabled.

I often take advantage of this to mess up enemy ball groups running around on a keep wall - face the ball, jump off the wall, chain pull one of them while the abilities still work, and when i fall to the ground below the wall, the pulled enemy will end up next to me unable to rejoin his zerg above.

Thogard

Sharee wrote: »

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Also, fun fact, if they are lag glitching your skills by walking through you, try jumping. While you’re in mid air the game considers you to be facing all directions and walk through will not work.

Weapon swap will not work and most skills will not fire ( only delayed ones plus for some reason or other dawnbreaker ) when I'm in the air though, so I'm not sure how that would help.

From my experience, there are two different "in the air" states. One is the result of jumping, one is the result of falling.

Falling disables everything, but jumping does not. If you jump from a keep wall, you will still be able to use abilities while rising into the air, and falling down up to the point where you would hit the ground again (were you jumping on flat ground), and only after you start falling below your starting point do your abilities get disabled.

I often take advantage of this to mess up enemy ball groups running around on a keep wall - face the ball, jump off the wall, chain pull one of them while the abilities still work, and when i fall to the ground below the wall, the pulled enemy will end up next to me unable to rejoin his zerg above.

This is exactly correct. You cannot do many actions (such as blocking) while falling. Thats why dizzy swing is strong - the hit after dizzy lands is unblockable because youre still falling even if you break free.

Jumping is a different story entirely.

Joy_Division

Emma_Overload wrote: »

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Abilities that channel/charge (Dizzying Swing prolly most affected by this) things can "loose" their target if they go back and forth between you.

Cool story, but op was talking about a frag proc. If you don't know, frags can "proc" to be an instant cast.

All this is, is people who kite properly can easily cause the person they are fighting to loose track of the target window, which is what you were referring to with wrecking blow.

It's not an exploit these players are just maneuvering properly.

Yes, you're right, I'm talking about procced Frags, which *should* be instant cast. However, careful testing will show that even procced Frags are not truly instant, not in the same way that Crushing Shock is, for example. If you cast a true instant spell like Crushing Shock, you can immediately get off a light attack. With procced Frags, however, the Frag appears to launch instantly, but there is actually a lockout period of a few (maybe two?) hundred milliseconds before you can do anything else like a light attack.

Can anyone else confirm that supposedly "instant cast" Frags are not truly instant?

It absolutely is not instant.

Before 1.6, the "instant" proc had such a slow animation, it could not even be animation canceled. ZoS did not remove that animation, rather they merely sped it up.

There maybe additional factors at work in what the OP is describing.

1. The animation priority system ZoS introduced in the Dark Brotherhood patch was well-intended, but ultimately made the system clunky, unresponsive, and buggy.

   As @Zos_EdLynch notes, it is purposeful to have the animations of abilities to not be in synch with what is happening on our screens: "That second, interrupting ability still happens the moment you activate it, the only difference is that the beginning few frames of that animation will be obscured by the impact/launch of the preceding one," i.e., when you press a button, the game will NOT give you any indication that action was performed even though it was processed.

   
   Read that again. What the game is showing you on your screen is not necessarily what your character is doing because the devs have prioritized showing an attack animation. So even when you think you're ready to fire off an ability with a target in your sights, the game engine could be busy having you do something else.
2. In general, target prioritization has never been very good and now even target acquisition is frustratingly slow. What I mean by target acquisition is that you've got LOS on a target, you hit an ability and the game seems to wait before actually firing off your attack. That sounds like lag, but it even happens when Cyrodiil performance is good and it's super frustrating. If I had to bet, ZoS's animation priority changes have messed this up too. Before Dark Brotherhood I don't remember this being an thing and I also did not constantly get stuck in heavy lightning attacks.

Rungar

ZOS_Edward wrote: »

Hi @Emma_Overload!

At times, what people may instinctively call an "exploit" or "cheat" may actually be something to do with in-game latency or a peculiar effect linked to an ability.

Many times positioning as it appears to you is not necessarily how it actually is due to latency, especially in close-quarters-combat situations. Good players will constantly stay on the move to take advantage of this, which isn't really an exploit in the sense you may be using that term.

In cases where it turns out that this is a function of an ability and you're not really a fan of that function, feel free to leave us feedback on it so we can get a sense of how you and the community feel about it.

If, after discussing things with the community, you feel that something is actually an exploit or cheat, then that discussion is better had over here or just submitted to us via a ticket in-game.

endless jumping moves players in and out of the hitbox for many skills especially melee skills/projectiles and takes advantage of latency in a way that shouldn't be possible. So should we all be jumping around like ninjas or should jumping in combat cost stamina?

How often do you see a guy you cant hit whose not jumping all the time?

Thogard

Rungar wrote: »

ZOS_Edward wrote: »

Hi @Emma_Overload!

At times, what people may instinctively call an "exploit" or "cheat" may actually be something to do with in-game latency or a peculiar effect linked to an ability.

Many times positioning as it appears to you is not necessarily how it actually is due to latency, especially in close-quarters-combat situations. Good players will constantly stay on the move to take advantage of this, which isn't really an exploit in the sense you may be using that term.

In cases where it turns out that this is a function of an ability and you're not really a fan of that function, feel free to leave us feedback on it so we can get a sense of how you and the community feel about it.

If, after discussing things with the community, you feel that something is actually an exploit or cheat, then that discussion is better had over here or just submitted to us via a ticket in-game.

endless jumping moves players in and out of the hitbox for many skills especially melee skills/projectiles and takes advantage of latency in a way that shouldn't be possible. So should we all be jumping around like ninjas or should jumping in combat cost stamina?

How often do you see a guy you cant hit whose not jumping all the time?

Common misperception. You can’t hit them because they’re behind you, not becauS they’re jumping.

They’re jumping so that when you’re behind them, they can hit you.

While in air you have 360 degree los.

Rungar

what difference does it make? Is the game meant to be a ninja jump fest or not?

jumping shouldn't work like roll dodge. Roll dodge consumes resources. Therefore if this is a valid tactic for attack evasion it should consume resources.

Thogard

Rungar wrote: »

what difference does it make? Is the game meant to be a ninja jump fest or not?

jumping shouldn't work like roll dodge. Roll dodge consumes resources. Therefore if this is a valid tactic for attack evasion it should consume resources.

It’s not a valid tactic for attack evasion.

It’s a tactic for having your attacks land even when your opponent is behind you.

Walking through people and getting behind them is the thing that is causing the attack evasion. Jumping just allows 360 los so that walkthrough has no effect.

I don’t know how much clearer I can be about this.

Solariken

Thogard wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what difference does it make? Is the game meant to be a ninja jump fest or not?

jumping shouldn't work like roll dodge. Roll dodge consumes resources. Therefore if this is a valid tactic for attack evasion it should consume resources.

It’s not a valid tactic for attack evasion.

It’s a tactic for having your attacks land even when your opponent is behind you.

Walking through people and getting behind them is the thing that is causing the attack evasion. Jumping just allows 360 los so that walkthrough has no effect.

I don’t know how much clearer I can be about this.

He's right though, IMO jumping provides a wide enough set of combat advantages to warrant a stamina cost.

Thogard

Solariken wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what difference does it make? Is the game meant to be a ninja jump fest or not?

jumping shouldn't work like roll dodge. Roll dodge consumes resources. Therefore if this is a valid tactic for attack evasion it should consume resources.

It’s not a valid tactic for attack evasion.

It’s a tactic for having your attacks land even when your opponent is behind you.

Walking through people and getting behind them is the thing that is causing the attack evasion. Jumping just allows 360 los so that walkthrough has no effect.

I don’t know how much clearer I can be about this.

He's right though, IMO jumping provides a wide enough set of combat advantages to warrant a stamina cost.

Jumping is a counter to timing walk-throughs to break los and force attacks to fail.

It is far more necessary for high ping players, who are looking at delayed positioning, than low ping players, who can run circles around others with no problem.

Adding a Stam cost to jumping would be a giant middle finger to every player that doesn’t have FIOS.

PhoenixGrey

Solariken wrote: »

He's right though, IMO jumping provides a wide enough set of combat advantages to warrant a stamina cost.

Jumping on my mag sorc keeps me in rhythm and allows me a 360 view to pick my next target or focus on an existing one.

I guess after nerfing mag sorc class skills to the ground, general game mechanics are ones which people can now focus on.

TequilaFire

We call them bunny hoppers and have made it a game to focus target them relentlessly.
Be wery wery quiet, I'm hunting wabbits!

antihero727

ZOS_Edward wrote: »

Hi @Emma_Overload!

At times, what people may instinctively call an "exploit" or "cheat" may actually be something to do with in-game latency or a peculiar effect linked to an ability.

Many times positioning as it appears to you is not necessarily how it actually is due to latency, especially in close-quarters-combat situations. Good players will constantly stay on the move to take advantage of this, which isn't really an exploit in the sense you may be using that term.

In cases where it turns out that this is a function of an ability and you're not really a fan of that function, feel free to leave us feedback on it so we can get a sense of how you and the community feel about it.

If, after discussing things with the community, you feel that something is actually an exploit or cheat, then that discussion is better had over here or just submitted to us via a ticket in-game.

There are bugged sets ATM that people are exploiting which might duplicate this issue. 3 sets I know about can have the 5pc bonus permanent while wearing other sets. Tighten up your game ZOS. If I submitted bug reports for all the broken stuff I would never play. But of corse it’s “my internet” that’s the issue.

QuebraRegra

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I'll get that occasionally with some other skills (meteor comes to mind as one that sometimes won't fire when somebody is right on you).

My assumption is that it's a latency thing and that on their screen or from the server's POV they are "behind" or inside your character, similar to how you can sometimes lob projectiles/attacks through doors as people step through. But it could be something sketchy too, idk.

I've noticed several other skills suffer from this limitation... look at SHADES fer issuance.

PhoenixGrey

TequilaFire wrote: »

We call them bunny hoppers and have made it a game to focus target them relentlessly.
Be wery wery quiet, I'm hunting wabbits!

Bring it on !

The more the merrier

Izaki

Vaoh wrote: »

Yup! I know of this and it can be very frustrating. I play on console and I am positive it is mostly a latency issue. However, it is also due to a buggy mechanic with the skill itself.

Certain players on quick builds can be very tough to target especially with Crystal Frags if close to you.... I know because I’ve played a Medium Armor Stam Sorc before and noticed players struggle with the same thing. “Clunky” Classes like Mag Sorc struggle immensely just to cast Crystal Frags at me up close.

Likewise when I play on my Mag Sorc which I have an enormous amount of experience on, the situation arises oftentimes when an enemy is right up in my face that Crystal Fragments won’t cast no matter how much I press the button. However, it wasn’t always like this.

I believe it was in Dark Brotherhood that Crystal Fragments became a bit more clunky (since the animation changes were added to the game). Even if a target is in medium range, it can sometimes take a few presses to release a procced Crystal Frag. It’s just much more of a problem up close. Besides this, there is actually a core flaw with Crystal Frags that has always caused this issue.

@ZOS_Edward It is likely due to your character needing to face your enemy directly just to cast the skill. This is much more noticeable when rooted - instead of casting Crystal Frags at the enemy to the side or behind where your character is facing, you instead turn toward them 30 degrees or so in an effort to face them. Only if you face them will your character cast the skill, meaning to hit an enemy behind you in combat when rooted you have to button mash your Crystal Frag button very hard lol. This is an issue in close range combat because your character still needs to face the enemy to cast the skill, yet they might be to your left/right/behind for a milisecond even as the visual shows then in front of you, making your character attempt a “turn” to face the target rather than casting the skill. This is why if you button mash Crystal Frags it will still go off, despite a couple presses not sufficing.

Basically they are just moving out of your recticle which makes you unable to cast Frags. Kinda the same thing for most ranged abilities. Especially on console since the camera sensitivity is waaaaay too low.

AddictionX

technohic wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

There should be collision, period. If you're in combat with someone, there should be no walking through the other person, or even roll dodging through.

Go around, fine.

Go any other direction, fine. Even dodge on a diagonal to get behind your opponent.

The fact that this is in use and even an option points to poor design choice, using latency as the excuse.

This is actually a good point for this an a lot of things. Part of the reason ball groups are so hard to deal with is that even if you are making progress on one target in the group; they overlap back and forth to where your attacks hit someone else.

I think the argument against collision detection was that people would troll other friendly players by standing in a bottleneck but im starting to think the negative without collision is outweighing the negative with. Just make it PvP only so no trolls are in PvE.

right because you can just dodge clip your way through if you needed too. I would love Collision like the guards have in the pvp cyrodil.

AddictionX

DarkAedin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

Wouldn't getting rid of snare immunity be better? So players are no longer running around at major expedition speed all the time.

Major Expedition is useful for escaping zergs. Snares are used to make the zerg catch up.
I'd rather remove the zerg tool, snares. Also feels better to have a bit speed.

To play devils advocate: Snares and stuns is also what breaks the zerg ball group apart when they are on the move

it doesnt due to purge bots + mist.

technohic

AddictionX wrote: »

DarkAedin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

Wouldn't getting rid of snare immunity be better? So players are no longer running around at major expedition speed all the time.

Major Expedition is useful for escaping zergs. Snares are used to make the zerg catch up.
I'd rather remove the zerg tool, snares. Also feels better to have a bit speed.

To play devils advocate: Snares and stuns is also what breaks the zerg ball group apart when they are on the move

it doesnt due to purge bots + mist.

Not really mist in ball groups. It’s having a dedicated rapids supply

Micah_Bayer

Obviously the people here speaking are not sorcerers...Hunny this has been a round since launch, it's not intentional and bad players can do it too. If anyone is in front of your sorcerer, frags does not go off. It does have a secret range thing.

BroanBeast1215

Solariken wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what difference does it make? Is the game meant to be a ninja jump fest or not?

jumping shouldn't work like roll dodge. Roll dodge consumes resources. Therefore if this is a valid tactic for attack evasion it should consume resources.

It’s not a valid tactic for attack evasion.

It’s a tactic for having your attacks land even when your opponent is behind you.

Walking through people and getting behind them is the thing that is causing the attack evasion. Jumping just allows 360 los so that walkthrough has no effect.

I don’t know how much clearer I can be about this.

He's right though, IMO jumping provides a wide enough set of combat advantages to warrant a stamina cost.

/facepalm

how are people this moronic?