[EXPLOIT?] Can we talk about that shady thing that Stamina/Melee builds do?

Emma_Overload

It has become apparent to me over time that it is somehow possible for some players to "LOS" you right in front of your face! WTF?

Let me explain the type of situation I'm talking about. Let's say I have a Frag procced for instant cast, and there's an enemy player positioned right in front me that I have already tab-targeted. When I say "right in front of me", I mean one meter or less. Assuming I am not hard CC'd, I should be able to tap the appropriate button and send that Frag flying instantly towards them. Except that's not what happens with certain players! Some of these guys are doing SOMETHING to make themselves basically un-targetable to your attacks, even though they are right in front of you with no intervening obstruction between you and them. I've noticed that usually these guys are wiggling back and forth, so I'm wondering if they are somehow exploiting the game's combat engine by doing this.

You know what the worst thing about this is? While these guys are doing this little dance they do, they're still able to hit ME with their attacks! How the heck is this possible? More importantly, how is this fair?

Aedaryl

You should add a screenshot, people will not trust you

DeadlyRecluse

I'll get that occasionally with some other skills (meteor comes to mind as one that sometimes won't fire when somebody is right on you).

My assumption is that it's a latency thing and that on their screen or from the server's POV they are "behind" or inside your character, similar to how you can sometimes lob projectiles/attacks through doors as people step through. But it could be something sketchy too, idk.

montjie

Lol coincidentally I noticed that happening yesterday while using fossilize but figured it was just ZOS trolling me again.
Dude was almost in my face so close was he yet fossilize stayed greyed out/dark as if there was no1 to target.

U sure this is intentional?

Emma_Overload

Aedaryl wrote: »

You should add a screenshot, people will not trust you

Unfortunately, a screenshot wouldn't really show anything except me standing in front another player. A video would be better, except that I use a mouse to fire my abilities instead of a keyboard, which means that you can't see the button icon for the Crystal Frag being depressed. Sometimes you CAN see my toon jerking her arms rapidly as I furiously spam the button, as if the Frag cast keeps getting aborted just as it starts.

Izaki

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

You should add a screenshot, people will not trust you

Unfortunately, a screenshot wouldn't really show anything except me standing in front another player. A video would be better, except that I use a mouse to fire my abilities instead of a keyboard, which means that you can't see the button icon for the Crystal Frag being depressed. Sometimes you CAN see my toon jerking her arms rapidly as I furiously spam the button, as if the Frag cast keeps getting aborted just as it starts.

Yeah that basically means that they were inside your character or moving out of your target recticle before you pressed the button. Not an exploit but I get how annoying it is.

Emma_Overload

montjie wrote: »

Lol coincidentally I noticed that happening yesterday while using fossilize but figured it was just ZOS trolling me again.
Dude was almost in my face so close was he yet fossilize stayed greyed out/dark as if there was no1 to target.

U sure this is intentional?

I'm pretty sure this is intentional. It's always good, tough players I notice doing this. I never have this problem with weak lowbie/noob players.

By the way, I should also point out that this ONLY happens at very close range. These same players can get Fragged at 5 or 10 meters or whatever, regardless of whether they are wiggling or hopping.

Kode

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

You should add a screenshot, people will not trust you

Unfortunately, a screenshot wouldn't really show anything except me standing in front another player. A video would be better, except that I use a mouse to fire my abilities instead of a keyboard, which means that you can't see the button icon for the Crystal Frag being depressed. Sometimes you CAN see my toon jerking her arms rapidly as I furiously spam the button, as if the Frag cast keeps getting aborted just as it starts.

Seriously? You click your abilities?

Emma_Overload

Kode wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

You should add a screenshot, people will not trust you

Unfortunately, a screenshot wouldn't really show anything except me standing in front another player. A video would be better, except that I use a mouse to fire my abilities instead of a keyboard, which means that you can't see the button icon for the Crystal Frag being depressed. Sometimes you CAN see my toon jerking her arms rapidly as I furiously spam the button, as if the Frag cast keeps getting aborted just as it starts.

Seriously? You click your abilities?

Haven't you ever seen an MMO mouse? They're amazing! Mine has plenty of side buttons for abilities... much easier than using the keyboard, in my opinion.

Lexxypwns

I actually experience this issue the most on stamina builds using reverse slice. Sometime I cannot get a reverse slice to go off on targets that are in range.

Emma_Overload

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I actually experience this issue the most on stamina builds using reverse slice. Sometime I cannot get a reverse slice to go off on targets that are in range.

It's almost as if some abilities have a secret "minimum range" like certain gap closers do.

Vapirko

Just lag. Try using dizzying swing with bad latency some day.

OdinForge

This is actually just a "thing" with crystal frag, and it doesn't have anything to do with exploiting. Players that have experience with playing magsorc understand it. As a magsorc you need to maintain a space cushion between you and your target, if the player moves into you the frag won't fire. Kind of like how moving into the player casting dizzying swing, may cause it to not go off.

There is a reason why good magsorcs generally kill good players, by CC'ing them first with dawnbreaker or meteor, and landing the frag after with curse. Incidentally removing the CC from frag was largely irrelevant vs good players, having the CC on frag was just good for pug slaughter. But frag has always been best used when you can somewhat guarantee the land, not just tossing them out like candy.

DosPanchos

Izaki wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

You should add a screenshot, people will not trust you

Unfortunately, a screenshot wouldn't really show anything except me standing in front another player. A video would be better, except that I use a mouse to fire my abilities instead of a keyboard, which means that you can't see the button icon for the Crystal Frag being depressed. Sometimes you CAN see my toon jerking her arms rapidly as I furiously spam the button, as if the Frag cast keeps getting aborted just as it starts.

Yeah that basically means that they were inside your character or moving out of your target recticle before you pressed the button. Not an exploit but I get how annoying it is.

He must be the chosen one. Neo!

DosPanchos

I know what you mean, and it's frustrating. I think this sort of thing manifests itself in a couple of different scenarios (reverse slash in my case). I usually just create some distance, slow them down, and reingage if possible.

Emma_Overload

OdinForge wrote: »

This is actually just a "thing" with crystal frag, and it doesn't have anything to do with exploiting. Players that have experience with playing magsorc understand it. As a magsorc you need to maintain a space cushion between you and your target, if the player moves into you the frag won't fire. Kind of like how moving into the player casting dizzying swing, may cause it to not go off.

There is a reason why good magsorcs generally kill good players, by CC'ing them first with dawnbreaker or meteor, and landing the frag after with curse. Incidentally removing the CC from frag was largely irrelevant vs good players, having the CC on frag was just good for pug slaughter. But frag has always been best used when you can somewhat guarantee the land, not just tossing them out like candy.

OK, but this raises a question for ZOS to answer: Is there any good reason that this "space cushion" is required for Frags?

Gilvoth

this has nothing to do with stamina melee builds.
it is an exploit and a cheat.

Ragnarock41

I experience this on all my melee builds.abilities dont go off sometimes. Annoying as hell.

Happens a lot with reverse slice.

Thogard

It’s related to lag and a location desync between you and the server. The enemy actually is where they appear to be - it’s you that’s not where you think you are.

Mureel

Kode wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

You should add a screenshot, people will not trust you

Unfortunately, a screenshot wouldn't really show anything except me standing in front another player. A video would be better, except that I use a mouse to fire my abilities instead of a keyboard, which means that you can't see the button icon for the Crystal Frag being depressed. Sometimes you CAN see my toon jerking her arms rapidly as I furiously spam the button, as if the Frag cast keeps getting aborted just as it starts.

Seriously? You click your abilities?

I use my side keys too except for ability one key 1 and 2 - everything is mapped to side keys - this is just because my hand is too small for my thumb to reach the 1,2,3 keys xD

ZOS_Edward

Hi @Emma_Overload!

At times, what people may instinctively call an "exploit" or "cheat" may actually be something to do with in-game latency or a peculiar effect linked to an ability.

Many times positioning as it appears to you is not necessarily how it actually is due to latency, especially in close-quarters-combat situations. Good players will constantly stay on the move to take advantage of this, which isn't really an exploit in the sense you may be using that term.

In cases where it turns out that this is a function of an ability and you're not really a fan of that function, feel free to leave us feedback on it so we can get a sense of how you and the community feel about it.

If, after discussing things with the community, you feel that something is actually an exploit or cheat, then that discussion is better had over here or just submitted to us via a ticket in-game.

Gilvoth

ooohhh i see ...ZOS_Edward
you mean like when those people were attacking that boss in clock work city and the boss could not attack them back and you guys banned some people for it?
im a bit confused on this. my apologies.

Alcast

Abilities that channel/charge (Dizzying Swing prolly most affected by this) things can "loose" their target if they go back and forth between you.

Draxys

The frequency with which this happens to me makes me think it’s just lag. I constantly find myself quite literally face to face with an enemy, yet I can’t target them with anything.

Sigtric

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

ooohhh i see ...ZOS_Edward
you mean like when those people were attacking that boss in clock work city and the boss could not attack them back and you guys banned some people for it?
im a bit confused on this. my apologies.

Nothing like this at all. That was standing in a specific spot that allowed them to attack but not be attacked back, done deliberately.

What's happening here is a player (client) thinking they are standing in one position and the server thinks the character is in a different position, due to the latency between either player involved and the server, then back to the client.

Waffennacht

It's walking through your opponent.

Better players know this, and is highly effective against WB, Jabs, Frag, etc

They will constantly walk through you back and forth, it's annoying as all get out

Combine this with latency and it's doubly annoying.

It's oooolllllldddddd school.

anitajoneb17_ESO

ZOS_Edward wrote: »

Hi @Emma_Overload!

At times, what people may instinctively call an "exploit" or "cheat" may actually be something to do with in-game latency or a peculiar effect linked to an ability.

Many times positioning as it appears to you is not necessarily how it actually is due to latency, especially in close-quarters-combat situations. Good players will constantly stay on the move to take advantage of this, which isn't really an exploit in the sense you may be using that term.

In cases where it turns out that this is a function of an ability and you're not really a fan of that function, feel free to leave us feedback on it so we can get a sense of how you and the community feel about it.

If, after discussing things with the community, you feel that something is actually an exploit or cheat, then that discussion is better had over here or just submitted to us via a ticket in-game.

@ZOS_Edward ,

Again, welcome. I believe your presence, as well as your 2 other amigos, will add a lot to these forums.

I noticed however that your post (this one) does not show up in the "dev tracker". Is it intended ? I believe it should, I'm probably not the only one who does not wish to scroll over every thread to look for your posts. There is a big "Z" in front of the thread due to your post but moderators' posts behave the same way so it doesn't really help.

Could you please check this with @ZOS_GinaBruno ? Tyvm ! :-)

NyassaV

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

Hurika

It's not turn based checkers - keeping your target in front of you and anticipating their movement is part of playing the game.

Vaoh

Yup! I know of this and it can be very frustrating. I play on console and I am positive it is mostly a latency issue. However, it is also due to a buggy mechanic with the skill itself.

Certain players on quick builds can be very tough to target especially with Crystal Frags if close to you.... I know because I’ve played a Medium Armor Stam Sorc before and noticed players struggle with the same thing. “Clunky” Classes like Mag Sorc struggle immensely just to cast Crystal Frags at me up close.

Likewise when I play on my Mag Sorc which I have an enormous amount of experience on, the situation arises oftentimes when an enemy is right up in my face that Crystal Fragments won’t cast no matter how much I press the button. However, it wasn’t always like this.

I believe it was in Dark Brotherhood that Crystal Fragments became a bit more clunky (since the animation changes were added to the game). Even if a target is in medium range, it can sometimes take a few presses to release a procced Crystal Frag. It’s just much more of a problem up close. Besides this, there is actually a core flaw with Crystal Frags that has always caused this issue.

@ZOS_Edward It is likely due to your character needing to face your enemy directly just to cast the skill. This is much more noticeable when rooted - instead of casting Crystal Frags at the enemy to the side or behind where your character is facing, you instead turn toward them 30 degrees or so in an effort to face them. Only if you face them will your character cast the skill, meaning to hit an enemy behind you in combat when rooted you have to button mash your Crystal Frag button very hard lol. This is an issue in close range combat because your character still needs to face the enemy to cast the skill, yet they might be to your left/right/behind for a milisecond even as the visual shows then in front of you, making your character attempt a “turn” to face the target rather than casting the skill. This is why if you button mash Crystal Frags it will still go off, despite a couple presses not sufficing.

Thogard

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.