[EXPLOIT?] Can we talk about that shady thing that Stamina/Melee builds do?

Solariken

I've encountered this, and it's NOT a distance bug as some people above are saying. I've had this happen at all ranges, where I'm targeting a player with my reticle and skills simply will not fire. Coincidentally they also seem to port around a bit like they do in lag, even when no other indications of lag are present. My tinfoil hat suspicion is some mild/advanced "cable-pulling" but of course there is no way for anyone to prove it.

There are two stamblades on PC/NA who cause me this problem consistently whenever I encounter them; word on the street is that one of them got the banhammer a while ago, which seems likely since I haven't seen him in months.

Lord-Otto

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

CatchMeTrolling

It's also just certain bugs in this game, sometimes when I try to steel tornado it won't let me.

rfennell_ESO

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It has become apparent to me over time that it is somehow possible for some players to "LOS" you right in front of your face! WTF?

Let me explain the type of situation I'm talking about. Let's say I have a Frag procced for instant cast, and there's an enemy player positioned right in front me that I have already tab-targeted. When I say "right in front of me", I mean one meter or less. Assuming I am not hard CC'd, I should be able to tap the appropriate button and send that Frag flying instantly towards them. Except that's not what happens with certain players! Some of these guys are doing SOMETHING to make themselves basically un-targetable to your attacks, even though they are right in front of you with no intervening obstruction between you and them. I've noticed that usually these guys are wiggling back and forth, so I'm wondering if they are somehow exploiting the game's combat engine by doing this.

You know what the worst thing about this is? While these guys are doing this little dance they do, they're still able to hit ME with their attacks! How the heck is this possible? More importantly, how is this fair?

A couple things...

First, just to be clear for those that aren't aware: Abilities with a cast time have 2 los checks, first at onset of cast and second at finish of cast. The time in between those two events doesn't require los. So if you start the cast and then it "fails" it's likely going to be a lack of los at the finish of the cast. Furthermore, as long as those two los checks are made... it doesn't matter where they go los afterward (through doors, behind a rock, behind a tree... it will still hit them).

They can run through you, but if you started the cast you only need los for the finish of the cast to hit them.

Second and last, there is a situation where people in clear sight become unattackable (and untargetable). It's noticeable with melee abilities as they fire as if the person was under the world (animations plays super fast with no connect at end). This is either a bug or an exploit, Being I see it done by "the usual suspects" I would lean toward it being an exploit, mostly because that's how they roll. I can only guess what it is if it's being done intentionally... could be a lag switch used after they activated vigor or some -noclip ce thing to put them under the game world partially.

P.S. starting in IC there was a point where many of the "elite" players would spend a fair bit of the time unattackable in melee range. I switched to ranged because of it. I'm sure it's a l2p issue, right? Anyways, I sent at least a half dozen videos of people doing this to ZOS and I doubt anything was done about it.

Hutch679

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It has become apparent to me over time that it is somehow possible for some players to "LOS" you right in front of your face! WTF?

Let me explain the type of situation I'm talking about. Let's say I have a Frag procced for instant cast, and there's an enemy player positioned right in front me that I have already tab-targeted. When I say "right in front of me", I mean one meter or less. Assuming I am not hard CC'd, I should be able to tap the appropriate button and send that Frag flying instantly towards them. Except that's not what happens with certain players! Some of these guys are doing SOMETHING to make themselves basically un-targetable to your attacks, even though they are right in front of you with no intervening obstruction between you and them. I've noticed that usually these guys are wiggling back and forth, so I'm wondering if they are somehow exploiting the game's combat engine by doing this.

You know what the worst thing about this is? While these guys are doing this little dance they do, they're still able to hit ME with their attacks! How the heck is this possible? More importantly, how is this fair?

I believe it has to do with the ESO targeting system. What do I mean by that? Well, you'll notice that when your center crosshairs are on an enemy their name bar shows that the top of the screen. When your crosshairs are no longer hovering near a player, their nameplate disappears. At melee range, they strafe left and right to avoid your crosshairs making them more difficult (but not impossible) to target. I would try to focus your crosshairs on them more and see if that solves the issue. Honestly I'm not a fan of the ESO targeting system. You should be able to hard target by locking on to a player and only hit that player with your abilities regardless of other enemies around.

BroanBeast1215

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

No.

Lord-Otto

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

No.

Yes.

Hutch679

Lord-Otto wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

No.

Yes.

Keep snares. Remove stealth from pvp.

Lord-Otto

Hutch679 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

No.

Yes.

Keep snares. Remove stealth from pvp.

May the Divines have mercy upon our souls!

Gilvoth

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It has become apparent to me over time that it is somehow possible for some players to "LOS" you right in front of your face! WTF?

Let me explain the type of situation I'm talking about. Let's say I have a Frag procced for instant cast, and there's an enemy player positioned right in front me that I have already tab-targeted. When I say "right in front of me", I mean one meter or less. Assuming I am not hard CC'd, I should be able to tap the appropriate button and send that Frag flying instantly towards them. Except that's not what happens with certain players! Some of these guys are doing SOMETHING to make themselves basically un-targetable to your attacks, even though they are right in front of you with no intervening obstruction between you and them. I've noticed that usually these guys are wiggling back and forth, so I'm wondering if they are somehow exploiting the game's combat engine by doing this.

You know what the worst thing about this is? While these guys are doing this little dance they do, they're still able to hit ME with their attacks! How the heck is this possible? More importantly, how is this fair?

A couple things...

First, just to be clear for those that aren't aware: Abilities with a cast time have 2 los checks, first at onset of cast and second at finish of cast. The time in between those two events doesn't require los. So if you start the cast and then it "fails" it's likely going to be a lack of los at the finish of the cast. Furthermore, as long as those two los checks are made... it doesn't matter where they go los afterward (through doors, behind a rock, behind a tree... it will still hit them).

They can run through you, but if you started the cast you only need los for the finish of the cast to hit them.

Second and last, there is a situation where people in clear sight become unattackable (and untargetable). It's noticeable with melee abilities as they fire as if the person was under the world (animations plays super fast with no connect at end). This is either a bug or an exploit, Being I see it done by "the usual suspects" I would lean toward it being an exploit, mostly because that's how they roll. I can only guess what it is if it's being done intentionally... could be a lag switch used after they activated vigor or some -noclip ce thing to put them under the game world partially.

P.S. starting in IC there was a point where many of the "elite" players would spend a fair bit of the time unattackable in melee range. I switched to ranged because of it. I'm sure it's a l2p issue, right? Anyways, I sent at least a half dozen videos of people doing this to ZOS and I doubt anything was done about it.

^ that is the correct answer^

Ragnarock41

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It has become apparent to me over time that it is somehow possible for some players to "LOS" you right in front of your face! WTF?

Let me explain the type of situation I'm talking about. Let's say I have a Frag procced for instant cast, and there's an enemy player positioned right in front me that I have already tab-targeted. When I say "right in front of me", I mean one meter or less. Assuming I am not hard CC'd, I should be able to tap the appropriate button and send that Frag flying instantly towards them. Except that's not what happens with certain players! Some of these guys are doing SOMETHING to make themselves basically un-targetable to your attacks, even though they are right in front of you with no intervening obstruction between you and them. I've noticed that usually these guys are wiggling back and forth, so I'm wondering if they are somehow exploiting the game's combat engine by doing this.

You know what the worst thing about this is? While these guys are doing this little dance they do, they're still able to hit ME with their attacks! How the heck is this possible? More importantly, how is this fair?

A couple things...

First, just to be clear for those that aren't aware: Abilities with a cast time have 2 los checks, first at onset of cast and second at finish of cast. The time in between those two events doesn't require los. So if you start the cast and then it "fails" it's likely going to be a lack of los at the finish of the cast. Furthermore, as long as those two los checks are made... it doesn't matter where they go los afterward (through doors, behind a rock, behind a tree... it will still hit them).

They can run through you, but if you started the cast you only need los for the finish of the cast to hit them.

Second and last, there is a situation where people in clear sight become unattackable (and untargetable). It's noticeable with melee abilities as they fire as if the person was under the world (animations plays super fast with no connect at end). This is either a bug or an exploit, Being I see it done by "the usual suspects" I would lean toward it being an exploit, mostly because that's how they roll. I can only guess what it is if it's being done intentionally... could be a lag switch used after they activated vigor or some -noclip ce thing to put them under the game world partially.

P.S. starting in IC there was a point where many of the "elite" players would spend a fair bit of the time unattackable in melee range. I switched to ranged because of it. I'm sure it's a l2p issue, right? Anyways, I sent at least a half dozen videos of people doing this to ZOS and I doubt anything was done about it.

you perfectly explained it.

People standing in front of me without any LOS or cloak usage. yet my abilities don't hit at all, no ''miss'' or ''dodge'' just nothing happens, my hits vanish into the void.

As far as I know, there is also a teleport hack in the game, or its another lag thing, but I do have videos where some shady players just teleport all over the place, in the middle of a duel.

rfennell_ESO

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It has become apparent to me over time that it is somehow possible for some players to "LOS" you right in front of your face! WTF?

Let me explain the type of situation I'm talking about. Let's say I have a Frag procced for instant cast, and there's an enemy player positioned right in front me that I have already tab-targeted. When I say "right in front of me", I mean one meter or less. Assuming I am not hard CC'd, I should be able to tap the appropriate button and send that Frag flying instantly towards them. Except that's not what happens with certain players! Some of these guys are doing SOMETHING to make themselves basically un-targetable to your attacks, even though they are right in front of you with no intervening obstruction between you and them. I've noticed that usually these guys are wiggling back and forth, so I'm wondering if they are somehow exploiting the game's combat engine by doing this.

You know what the worst thing about this is? While these guys are doing this little dance they do, they're still able to hit ME with their attacks! How the heck is this possible? More importantly, how is this fair?

A couple things...

First, just to be clear for those that aren't aware: Abilities with a cast time have 2 los checks, first at onset of cast and second at finish of cast. The time in between those two events doesn't require los. So if you start the cast and then it "fails" it's likely going to be a lack of los at the finish of the cast. Furthermore, as long as those two los checks are made... it doesn't matter where they go los afterward (through doors, behind a rock, behind a tree... it will still hit them).

They can run through you, but if you started the cast you only need los for the finish of the cast to hit them.

Second and last, there is a situation where people in clear sight become unattackable (and untargetable). It's noticeable with melee abilities as they fire as if the person was under the world (animations plays super fast with no connect at end). This is either a bug or an exploit, Being I see it done by "the usual suspects" I would lean toward it being an exploit, mostly because that's how they roll. I can only guess what it is if it's being done intentionally... could be a lag switch used after they activated vigor or some -noclip ce thing to put them under the game world partially.

P.S. starting in IC there was a point where many of the "elite" players would spend a fair bit of the time unattackable in melee range. I switched to ranged because of it. I'm sure it's a l2p issue, right? Anyways, I sent at least a half dozen videos of people doing this to ZOS and I doubt anything was done about it.

you perfectly explained it.

People standing in front of me without any LOS or cloak usage. yet my abilities don't hit at all, no ''miss'' or ''dodge'' just nothing happens, my hits vanish into the void.

As far as I know, there is also a teleport hack in the game, or its another lag thing, but I do have videos where some shady players just teleport all over the place, in the middle of a duel.

It's one of the biggest issues with cast time abilities.

Basically, to avoid them you only have to avoid the end of cast los check.

Now some of it is just latency or lag, no doubt. Some of it... well, with miat's functionality operating as it does and the begin cast notification coupled with a known cast time on abilities... it's not that shocking to think that people are using that to initiate whatever it is to avoid that attack. Being that the information (begin cast being the primary thing I'd guess) can be used and scripted through autohotkey and then automated to activate whatever is being used to eliminate los.... well, you get the picture.

A for instance of the way cast time abilities operate is someone running along the parapets in a keep. If you can initiate your cast with los (easy to do) and get los for the end of the cast (as they are running along, even though there were out of los for most of the cast) you can still hit them.

Another little point is that knockdowns have a tendency of breaking los if they are "on the ground" at the end of cast los. Particularly if there is a Z axis difference (with you being the lower point). What this means is that the "hitbox" or targetting window on someone is not always the same. Someone in a knock down animation does not have the same targeting profile of someone standing in the same place. It's very possible that something of this nature is being abused or bugged.

idk

Even having the player tab targeted doesn't guarantee you will hit them. If your target in your ui shows something else your likely to hit that other target.

It sounds like this could be what's happening with OP. ESO's tab target is merely a priority target. Basically a soft tab target system.

Bam_Bam

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Kode wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

You should add a screenshot, people will not trust you

Unfortunately, a screenshot wouldn't really show anything except me standing in front another player. A video would be better, except that I use a mouse to fire my abilities instead of a keyboard, which means that you can't see the button icon for the Crystal Frag being depressed. Sometimes you CAN see my toon jerking her arms rapidly as I furiously spam the button, as if the Frag cast keeps getting aborted just as it starts.

Seriously? You click your abilities?

Haven't you ever seen an MMO mouse? They're amazing! Mine has plenty of side buttons for abilities... much easier than using the keyboard, in my opinion.

Agreed - in fact I don't actual understand how someone can 'steer' (WASD) AND press buttons on the keyboard at the same tim unless each hand has 2 wrists and 8 fingers or something. I use the Logitech G600 - might try the Corsair Scimitar next

Domander

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

Wouldn't getting rid of snare immunity be better? So players are no longer running around at major expedition speed all the time.

Derra

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

ooohhh i see ...ZOS_Edward
you mean like when those people were attacking that boss in clock work city and the boss could not attack them back and you guys banned some people for it?
im a bit confused on this. my apologies.

Can you provide evidence that the same kind of unintended behavior is happening?

No? Thought so.

Thogard

This tends to happen to me during laggy time periods when I’m using skills rapidly.

My working theory is that a delayed server-side check is undoing something that’s had its client-size animation already start.

I notice a lot of my dizzies and my reverse slices getting eaten up by this.

Reverse slice is the best example because it’s a skill that, if you animation cancel it, you can cause it to happen faster than it otherwise would. In order words, If you block cancel it, the damage hits the target sooner.

Now remember that people aren’t where they appear to be on your screen. You are seeing your location BEFORE server lag, and you are seeing the opponent’s location AFTER server lag and after your own lag. In other words, because your movements take time to arrive at the server, you are seeing where you will be, and you are seeing where your opponent WAS. Landing ground target aoes like Templar jabs or warden beetles or DK flame breath is hard during lag for this reason.

When you use an ability, there are two checks. A client side check and a server side check.

I believe that these deleted actions are occurring due to the location desync caused by this lag. You pass the client-side check so you begin the animation, but you fail the server-side check, so no damage is done.

If you get really good with movements you can greatly increase your opponent’s odds of failing one of these two checks. Because of the lag and location desync, it’s hard to pass a client side check and a server side check when both you and the target are moving... since those two checks will occur with you and your opponent at different locations...

You’ve probably seen someone trying to force this and not even realized it. I do it all the time, so do most PvP players. It’s that rapid strafing from left to right to left to right (repeat ad nauseum) while buffing or in melee. Works best with speed pots or sprinting.

It works because your client is doing a range check on one position, but the server is doing it on the other position. Because of the difference in distance between the two spots, one of those checks will fail unless you guessed which direction they’d move.They then time their attacks to occur in the middle.

Good stuff.

technohic

Is this while chasing someone around a resource tower. It’s a common 1vX tactic. Seen the issue in most MMOs. SWG had it really bad in bunkers/bases.

Problem is you need LOS for tactical play. Can’t just have players shoot through walls. Then you throw in latency and the LOS gets extended.

I wonder if it used to be better as the LOS check could be done at the instant you activated; but didn’t they change that when slower projectiles like dark flare and vampires bane would chase the target they LOSed mid flight?

Lord-Otto

Domander wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

Wouldn't getting rid of snare immunity be better? So players are no longer running around at major expedition speed all the time.

Major Expedition is useful for escaping zergs. Snares are used to make the zerg catch up.
I'd rather remove the zerg tool, snares. Also feels better to have a bit speed.

Merlin13KAGL

There should be collision, period. If you're in combat with someone, there should be no walking through the other person, or even roll dodging through.

Go around, fine.

Go any other direction, fine. Even dodge on a diagonal to get behind your opponent.

The fact that this is in use and even an option points to poor design choice, using latency as the excuse.

technohic

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

There should be collision, period. If you're in combat with someone, there should be no walking through the other person, or even roll dodging through.

Go around, fine.

Go any other direction, fine. Even dodge on a diagonal to get behind your opponent.

The fact that this is in use and even an option points to poor design choice, using latency as the excuse.

This is actually a good point for this an a lot of things. Part of the reason ball groups are so hard to deal with is that even if you are making progress on one target in the group; they overlap back and forth to where your attacks hit someone else.

I think the argument against collision detection was that people would troll other friendly players by standing in a bottleneck but im starting to think the negative without collision is outweighing the negative with. Just make it PvP only so no trolls are in PvE.

Lord-Otto

No.
The problem with collision detection is that it causes more stress for the server, which means - you guessed it - LAG.
Definitely don't need more of that.

Idinuse

ZOS_Edward wrote: »

Hi @Emma_Overload!

At times, what people may instinctively call an "exploit" or "cheat" may actually be something to do with in-game latency or a peculiar effect linked to an ability.

Many times positioning as it appears to you is not necessarily how it actually is due to latency, especially in close-quarters-combat situations. Good players will constantly stay on the move to take advantage of this, which isn't really an exploit in the sense you may be using that term.

In cases where it turns out that this is a function of an ability and you're not really a fan of that function, feel free to leave us feedback on it so we can get a sense of how you and the community feel about it.

If, after discussing things with the community, you feel that something is actually an exploit or cheat, then that discussion is better had over here or just submitted to us via a ticket in-game.

Welcome Edward!

The thread you are linking to (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/272833/cheating-and-exploits/p1) has been closed, check the last post. This is by the way very unfortunate and I must say it sends quite strange signals to me and many of my friends and guild mates. Emma_Overload has done exactly what the close post urges to do, create new topics in regards to questions about possible exploits or cheats. However, maybe you agree that having these topics in one pinned thread is easier and perhaps you can open a new one.

I concur with rfennell_ESO and Ragnarock41, they describe these "phenomenons", including teleporting around, exactly. In fact it reminds me much of the old "lag switch". I think ZOS would do good in taking this to heart and trying to get some "hands on" to check this out, as I doubt it is anything that would show up in your logs.

PhoenixGrey

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It has become apparent to me over time that it is somehow possible for some players to "LOS" you right in front of your face! WTF?

Let me explain the type of situation I'm talking about. Let's say I have a Frag procced for instant cast, and there's an enemy player positioned right in front me that I have already tab-targeted. When I say "right in front of me", I mean one meter or less. Assuming I am not hard CC'd, I should be able to tap the appropriate button and send that Frag flying instantly towards them. Except that's not what happens with certain players! Some of these guys are doing SOMETHING to make themselves basically un-targetable to your attacks, even though they are right in front of you with no intervening obstruction between you and them. I've noticed that usually these guys are wiggling back and forth, so I'm wondering if they are somehow exploiting the game's combat engine by doing this.

You know what the worst thing about this is? While these guys are doing this little dance they do, they're still able to hit ME with their attacks! How the heck is this possible? More importantly, how is this fair?

This happens a lot for me as well especially when in close range and the frag will not hit for some unknown reason.

The_Brosteen

Alcast wrote: »

Abilities that channel/charge (Dizzying Swing prolly most affected by this) things can "loose" their target if they go back and forth between you.

Cool story, but op was talking about a frag proc. If you don't know, frags can "proc" to be an instant cast.

All this is, is people who kite properly can easily cause the person they are fighting to loose track of the target window, which is what you were referring to with wrecking blow.

It's not an exploit these players are just maneuvering properly.

The_Brosteen

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

No.

Someone runs a snare build lol

Emma_Overload

The_Brosteen wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Abilities that channel/charge (Dizzying Swing prolly most affected by this) things can "loose" their target if they go back and forth between you.

Cool story, but op was talking about a frag proc. If you don't know, frags can "proc" to be an instant cast.

All this is, is people who kite properly can easily cause the person they are fighting to loose track of the target window, which is what you were referring to with wrecking blow.

It's not an exploit these players are just maneuvering properly.

Yes, you're right, I'm talking about procced Frags, which *should* be instant cast. However, careful testing will show that even procced Frags are not truly instant, not in the same way that Crushing Shock is, for example. If you cast a true instant spell like Crushing Shock, you can immediately get off a light attack. With procced Frags, however, the Frag appears to launch instantly, but there is actually a lockout period of a few (maybe two?) hundred milliseconds before you can do anything else like a light attack.

Can anyone else confirm that supposedly "instant cast" Frags are not truly instant?

DarkAedin

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

Wouldn't getting rid of snare immunity be better? So players are no longer running around at major expedition speed all the time.

Major Expedition is useful for escaping zergs. Snares are used to make the zerg catch up.
I'd rather remove the zerg tool, snares. Also feels better to have a bit speed.

To play devils advocate: Snares and stuns is also what breaks the zerg ball group apart when they are on the move

BroanBeast1215

The_Brosteen wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

No.

Someone runs a snare build lol

I have two skills that have snares on them(jabs/rending) if that's a snare build than I guess every almost every stamplar runs a snare build lol. Ive just played MMOs before and know that removing snares wont help the pvp situation only hurt it.

Lord-Otto

DarkAedin wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

I know exactly what your talking about. I see it a lot in the Imperial City due to the close quarters. I could see it being considered a exploit because it is effective exploiting the game's terrible momentum physics and then using snare removal to ensure they keep moving to the to point where they just cannot be hit because the tab target system is garbage compared to what it used to be. And to any who think it's lag or a L2P issue... It's not, it so totally is not

It’s a L2P thing when it comes to learning how to do it. The walkthrough tactic can be countered by anyone with a good connection, but “line of sighting” has no counter. Nor should it. Anyone who’s played an FPS or RTS will tell you that usage of corners and doorways (or gates, ledges, ridges, etc) is what separates a bad player from a good (or average) player.

The only thing that would “fix” this is to make the Final LOS, range, and “facing” checks client side instead of server side. But that would cause a whole bunch of issues where the opposite would happen. Instead if you not being able to hit an opponent because of location desync on your end, an opponent would now be able to hit you even when you aren’t close to them due to location desync on their end. The latter is much worse than the former IMO.

The fix is muuuch, much simpler:
GET. RID. OF. SNARES!!!

Wouldn't getting rid of snare immunity be better? So players are no longer running around at major expedition speed all the time.

Major Expedition is useful for escaping zergs. Snares are used to make the zerg catch up.
I'd rather remove the zerg tool, snares. Also feels better to have a bit speed.

To play devils advocate: Snares and stuns is also what breaks the zerg ball group apart when they are on the move

If only that would be true...