[EXPLOIT?] Can we talk about that shady thing that Stamina/Melee builds do?

Akagami94

@Emma_Overload In PvP most stamina builds are using shuffle, you should read the description of that skill

Emma_Overload

Akagami94 wrote: »

@Emma_Overload In PvP most stamina builds are using shuffle, you should read the description of that skill

This has nothing to do with Shuffle or any other form of Dodge chance.

Stratforge

Akagami94 wrote: »

@Emma_Overload In PvP most stamina builds are using shuffle, you should read the description of that skill

*galaxy brain meme*

Vapirko

Thogard wrote: »

It’s related to lag and a location desync between you and the server. The enemy actually is where they appear to be - it’s you that’s not where you think you are.

Woah, that’s deep. I need to go to the top of Dragon Claw keep and meditate on this.

Thogard

Vapirko wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

It’s related to lag and a location desync between you and the server. The enemy actually is where they appear to be - it’s you that’s not where you think you are.

Woah, that’s deep. I need to go to the top of Dragon Claw keep and meditate on this.

If you wanna really go deep, duel somebody with both of you recording and then watch both videos sync’d up. It’s a total mind blower.

Solariken

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what difference does it make? Is the game meant to be a ninja jump fest or not?

jumping shouldn't work like roll dodge. Roll dodge consumes resources. Therefore if this is a valid tactic for attack evasion it should consume resources.

It’s not a valid tactic for attack evasion.

It’s a tactic for having your attacks land even when your opponent is behind you.

Walking through people and getting behind them is the thing that is causing the attack evasion. Jumping just allows 360 los so that walkthrough has no effect.

I don’t know how much clearer I can be about this.

He's right though, IMO jumping provides a wide enough set of combat advantages to warrant a stamina cost.

/facepalm

how are people this moronic?

@BroanBeast1215 you're so right. They should just go ahead and remove the cost of sprinting, dodging, and blocking too. Balanced gameplay is so moronic. /s

Oh wait, go back and play Morrowind and Oblivion and notice the jump cost then get back in here and apologize.

I'll also give you some free benefit of the doubt here since most people don't know how busted jumping can be vs this game's craptacular targeting system.

Thogard

Solariken wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what difference does it make? Is the game meant to be a ninja jump fest or not?

jumping shouldn't work like roll dodge. Roll dodge consumes resources. Therefore if this is a valid tactic for attack evasion it should consume resources.

It’s not a valid tactic for attack evasion.

It’s a tactic for having your attacks land even when your opponent is behind you.

Walking through people and getting behind them is the thing that is causing the attack evasion. Jumping just allows 360 los so that walkthrough has no effect.

I don’t know how much clearer I can be about this.

He's right though, IMO jumping provides a wide enough set of combat advantages to warrant a stamina cost.

/facepalm

how are people this moronic?

@BroanBeast1215 you're so right. They should just go ahead and remove the cost of sprinting, dodging, and blocking too. Balanced gameplay is so moronic. /s

Oh wait, go back and play Morrowind and Oblivion and notice the jump cost then get back in here and apologize.

I'll also give you some free benefit of the doubt here since most people don't know how busted jumping can be vs this game's craptacular targeting system.

No. Jumping is the only way to avoid the craptacular targeting system.

People don’t jump to avoid getting targeted. People jump so that their targets can’t avoid being targeted by walk through and location de sync.

Your logic here is akin to saying that because doctors tend to be near sick patients, we should get rid of all doctors in order to eliminate disease.

Jake1576

I know my incap strike does this at times i'll have someone down to a pinch of a health and my incap strike wont go off until the person is already out of the way this only seems to occur when i try it on people who are stamina primarily

BroanBeast1215

Solariken wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what difference does it make? Is the game meant to be a ninja jump fest or not?

jumping shouldn't work like roll dodge. Roll dodge consumes resources. Therefore if this is a valid tactic for attack evasion it should consume resources.

It’s not a valid tactic for attack evasion.

It’s a tactic for having your attacks land even when your opponent is behind you.

Walking through people and getting behind them is the thing that is causing the attack evasion. Jumping just allows 360 los so that walkthrough has no effect.

I don’t know how much clearer I can be about this.

He's right though, IMO jumping provides a wide enough set of combat advantages to warrant a stamina cost.

/facepalm

how are people this moronic?

@BroanBeast1215 you're so right. They should just go ahead and remove the cost of sprinting, dodging, and blocking too. Balanced gameplay is so moronic. /s

Oh wait, go back and play Morrowind and Oblivion and notice the jump cost then get back in here and apologize.

I'll also give you some free benefit of the doubt here since most people don't know how busted jumping can be vs this game's craptacular targeting system.

lol eso is not Morrowind or Oblivion or skyrim for that matter, no matter how much you'd like it to be.

Solariken

Thogard wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

what difference does it make? Is the game meant to be a ninja jump fest or not?

jumping shouldn't work like roll dodge. Roll dodge consumes resources. Therefore if this is a valid tactic for attack evasion it should consume resources.

It’s not a valid tactic for attack evasion.

It’s a tactic for having your attacks land even when your opponent is behind you.

Walking through people and getting behind them is the thing that is causing the attack evasion. Jumping just allows 360 los so that walkthrough has no effect.

I don’t know how much clearer I can be about this.

He's right though, IMO jumping provides a wide enough set of combat advantages to warrant a stamina cost.

/facepalm

how are people this moronic?

@BroanBeast1215 you're so right. They should just go ahead and remove the cost of sprinting, dodging, and blocking too. Balanced gameplay is so moronic. /s

Oh wait, go back and play Morrowind and Oblivion and notice the jump cost then get back in here and apologize.

I'll also give you some free benefit of the doubt here since most people don't know how busted jumping can be vs this game's craptacular targeting system.

Your logic here is akin to saying that because doctors tend to be near sick patients, we should get rid of all doctors in order to eliminate disease.

This is such a strange analogy, I don't even...

All I'm saying is that

1) jumping provides combat advantage (albeit certainly to a lesser extent than block/dodge/sprint)

and

2) there is TES precedent for jump stamina cost and it makes perfect sense from a game design perspective.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point but you all act like it's some heresy and people show up with pitchforks every time it's discussed.

MetalHead4x4

I get this when I get a NB on the run after a failed kill, they take off and I'm right behind them but none of my skills will go off. I especially noticed this with builds like Miat/Chipsworth etc I'll have them at very low health and my Endless Fury won't go off.

Raudgrani

I call it "hugging", and it's annoying af. Same people love to dance around rocks, walls and trees, and same people tend to be wrecking blow spammers. I use to try and roll dodge through them and then stun/root/snare them to actually being able of targeting them. If they start to run around trees, I simply ignore them and walk on. I have better things to do than participate in S&M games with guys who loves getting their backs whipped.

Edit: If you use a more "bird view" perspective, i.e. tilt your view so you view from above, it's a bit easier to deal with the "huggers". After all, you have a "crosshair sight", and if they are too far from it, it seems like you don't target them, and mash your buttons to no avail...

Xvorg

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It has become apparent to me over time that it is somehow possible for some players to "LOS" you right in front of your face! WTF?

Let me explain the type of situation I'm talking about. Let's say I have a Frag procced for instant cast, and there's an enemy player positioned right in front me that I have already tab-targeted. When I say "right in front of me", I mean one meter or less. Assuming I am not hard CC'd, I should be able to tap the appropriate button and send that Frag flying instantly towards them. Except that's not what happens with certain players! Some of these guys are doing SOMETHING to make themselves basically un-targetable to your attacks, even though they are right in front of you with no intervening obstruction between you and them. I've noticed that usually these guys are wiggling back and forth, so I'm wondering if they are somehow exploiting the game's combat engine by doing this.

You know what the worst thing about this is? While these guys are doing this little dance they do, they're still able to hit ME with their attacks! How the heck is this possible? More importantly, how is this fair?

Happened to me a couple of times with basic attack button, so I was unable to do lit full heavy attacks on my mDK. The char starts the animation for the attack and suddently stops. Removing the staff and slotting it again solves the issue until I use another full heavy.

Also It has happened on other attacks, but the HA was the last one I got on Cyro. Of course I reported it.

Ender1310

Now you understand the difference between 41 ft and 1 ft in front of you. Melee characters have had to deal with this since release. This is why unlockable un counter able CC from 41 ft away had to go. I have every alt/class combo in the game. When my combat style is melee its hard to hit other melee or even casters when you are that close. Your reticle is much more forgiving 41 ft away. Take this as a lesson ranged pvp toons. Range matters. It is inherently an advantage.

Ender1310

Also I would think streak is your friend here. Get further away!

Minno

In some ways, targeting in this game is heavily impacted by the change for first person view.

It's how los can happen too.

usmguy1234

Since people are going to necro I'd figure I'd share this is why people bunny hop... or part of the reason. On the ground, your attacks can be walked through as a caster but in the air you almost have a 360 attack field. This is why I want to buy a elite controller for xbone bc I can remap jump to the left trigger to make it easier.

Ragnaroek93

I would recommend playing an aim trainer. Good way to learn how to smoothly track a target with your crosshair.

Emma_Overload

Ender1310 wrote: »

Now you understand the difference between 41 ft and 1 ft in front of you. Melee characters have had to deal with this since release. This is why unlockable un counter able CC from 41 ft away had to go. I have every alt/class combo in the game. When my combat style is melee its hard to hit other melee or even casters when you are that close. Your reticle is much more forgiving 41 ft away. Take this as a lesson ranged pvp toons. Range matters. It is inherently an advantage.

Range is only an advantage when you are actually allowed to fight at range... which never happens in the Imperial City. IC is full of melee builds with roots and gap closers out the wazoo, you NEVER get to spam ranged attacks unless you happen to be in the middle of a (rare) zerg.

Anyway, the problem described in the original post still remains: the combat engine needs to be fixed so that attacks that are in range and have LOS will ALWAYS connect to the target!

Emma_Overload

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Since people are going to necro I'd figure I'd share this is why people bunny hop... or part of the reason. On the ground, your attacks can be walked through as a caster but in the air you almost have a 360 attack field. This is why I want to buy a elite controller for xbone bc I can remap jump to the left trigger to make it easier.

You're not the first person who has said this, so I'm beginning to believe it's not just an old wives tale. I'll have to try this some more next time I play.

rfennell_ESO

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Ender1310 wrote: »

Now you understand the difference between 41 ft and 1 ft in front of you. Melee characters have had to deal with this since release. This is why unlockable un counter able CC from 41 ft away had to go. I have every alt/class combo in the game. When my combat style is melee its hard to hit other melee or even casters when you are that close. Your reticle is much more forgiving 41 ft away. Take this as a lesson ranged pvp toons. Range matters. It is inherently an advantage.

Range is only an advantage when you are actually allowed to fight at range... which never happens in the Imperial City. IC is full of melee builds with roots and gap closers out the wazoo, you NEVER get to spam ranged attacks unless you happen to be in the middle of a (rare) zerg.

Anyway, the problem described in the original post still remains: the combat engine needs to be fixed so that attacks that are in range and have LOS will ALWAYS connect to the target!

Maybe you can connect with the class rep program and see if they can help.

Oh wait, one of the guys I used to see shimmer and become unattackable back in IC is a class rep...

I still see it from "the usual suspects" when they are making circles in a tower and even though you are right on top of them, you can't even attack them.

Drako_Ei

ZOS_Edward wrote: »

Hi @Emma_Overload!

At times, what people may instinctively call an "exploit" or "cheat" may actually be something to do with in-game latency or a peculiar effect linked to an ability.

Many times positioning as it appears to you is not necessarily how it actually is due to latency, especially in close-quarters-combat situations. Good players will constantly stay on the move to take advantage of this, which isn't really an exploit in the sense you may be using that term.

In cases where it turns out that this is a function of an ability and you're not really a fan of that function, feel free to leave us feedback on it so we can get a sense of how you and the community feel about it.

If, after discussing things with the community, you feel that something is actually an exploit or cheat, then that discussion is better had over here or just submitted to us via a ticket in-game.

This is an issue making players literally untouchable while they can keep putting dots on you, and if it has something to do with in-game latency... then my suggestion is to remove speed buffs, or nerf them, and not because speed is OP itself, its because speed + LAG makes them untouchable and extremely unfair to fight against (especially as DK, the stay on your ground class)... this happens with those swift trait, forward momentum, major expedition players...

Thogard

Emma_Overload wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Since people are going to necro I'd figure I'd share this is why people bunny hop... or part of the reason. On the ground, your attacks can be walked through as a caster but in the air you almost have a 360 attack field. This is why I want to buy a elite controller for xbone bc I can remap jump to the left trigger to make it easier.

You're not the first person who has said this, so I'm beginning to believe it's not just an old wives tale. I'll have to try this some more next time I play.

Cause what do I know about PvP

Grimhallow

Maybe they are simple wearing swift and kiting, as stam players should do. If that somehow makes them un-tagetable at super close range, then they would get the subconscious feedback loop that kiting is an effective strategy. I don't think this means that stam players are intentionally abusing the laggy messy system even if there is a targeting issue.

Thogard

Grimick wrote: »

Maybe they are simple wearing swift and kiting, as stam players should do. If that somehow makes them un-tagetable at super close range, then they would get the subconscious feedback loop that kiting is an effective strategy. I don't think this means that stam players are intentionally abusing the laggy messy system even if there is a targeting issue.

To-hit and LoS checks for single target abilities are client side, not server side

Grimhallow

Thogard wrote: »

Grimick wrote: »

Maybe they are simple wearing swift and kiting, as stam players should do. If that somehow makes them un-tagetable at super close range, then they would get the subconscious feedback loop that kiting is an effective strategy. I don't think this means that stam players are intentionally abusing the laggy messy system even if there is a targeting issue.

To-hit and LoS checks for single target abilities are client side, not server side

Would that not make the details about dancing irreverent?

It's true they could be cheating- but then they are cheating- not abusing a movement based mechanic.

Thogard

Grimick wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Grimick wrote: »

Maybe they are simple wearing swift and kiting, as stam players should do. If that somehow makes them un-tagetable at super close range, then they would get the subconscious feedback loop that kiting is an effective strategy. I don't think this means that stam players are intentionally abusing the laggy messy system even if there is a targeting issue.

To-hit and LoS checks for single target abilities are client side, not server side

Would that not make the details about dancing irreverent?

It's true they could be cheating- but then they are cheating- not abusing a movement based mechanic.

There is a single point in a character that determines if they can be attacked. Just because you can see the character and that character looks like it’s in front of you, doesn’t mean it actually is.

I’d strongly suggest anyone curious about this to get a dueling buddy and test it using ledges and other los blockers.

Waffennacht

Grimick wrote: »

Maybe they are simple wearing swift and kiting, as stam players should do. If that somehow makes them un-tagetable at super close range, then they would get the subconscious feedback loop that kiting is an effective strategy. I don't think this means that stam players are intentionally abusing the laggy messy system even if there is a targeting issue.

The thread was made in January

And Emma was experiencing being walked through

usmguy1234

Emma_Overload wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Since people are going to necro I'd figure I'd share this is why people bunny hop... or part of the reason. On the ground, your attacks can be walked through as a caster but in the air you almost have a 360 attack field. This is why I want to buy a elite controller for xbone bc I can remap jump to the left trigger to make it easier.

You're not the first person who has said this, so I'm beginning to believe it's not just an old wives tale. I'll have to try this some more next time I play.

It's definitely true... It's most noticeable with force pulse. As long as you hit the skill before the other player breaks the 180 degree plane it will go off... but you have to be in the air. I suspect you could replicate it on a practice dummy but since it doesn't move, you'll have to jump past it.

Thogard

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Since people are going to necro I'd figure I'd share this is why people bunny hop... or part of the reason. On the ground, your attacks can be walked through as a caster but in the air you almost have a 360 attack field. This is why I want to buy a elite controller for xbone bc I can remap jump to the left trigger to make it easier.

You're not the first person who has said this, so I'm beginning to believe it's not just an old wives tale. I'll have to try this some more next time I play.

It's definitely true... It's most noticeable with force pulse. As long as you hit the skill before the other player breaks the 180 degree plane it will go off... but you have to be in the air. I suspect you could replicate it on a practice dummy but since it doesn't move, you'll have to jump past it.

If they’re still autotaegetted they can actually break that 180 plane and still get just fine if you’re in the air. That’s kind of the whole point.