PTS Update 17 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance

Kilandros

beetleklee wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Can we rework MagDK a bit? I think testing the Flame Lash proc on burning instead of off balance would help. MagDK has awful sustain and the nerf to off balance uptime hurts it the most because this is the only build that really relies on off balance for damage and sustain. This would also let it not overperform in PVP where DOTs/burning can be purged.

Molten Whip can't be sustained either, same with Force Pulse. It'll probably dip to being completely bottom tier for DPS if this change goes live.

It's just disheartening to have a playstyle I enjoy so much and a character I've worked hard on keep getting indirectly nerfed each update when it needs help more than anything.

Also wouldn't mind some cost reduction on skills or a buff to Eruption (it costs a ton and could do more damage.) MagDK's sustain is so bad and this is the final nail in the coffin.

Power Lash proc off burning is an interesting idea

usmcjdking

Kilandros wrote: »

beetleklee wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Can we rework MagDK a bit? I think testing the Flame Lash proc on burning instead of off balance would help. MagDK has awful sustain and the nerf to off balance uptime hurts it the most because this is the only build that really relies on off balance for damage and sustain. This would also let it not overperform in PVP where DOTs/burning can be purged.

Molten Whip can't be sustained either, same with Force Pulse. It'll probably dip to being completely bottom tier for DPS if this change goes live.

It's just disheartening to have a playstyle I enjoy so much and a character I've worked hard on keep getting indirectly nerfed each update when it needs help more than anything.

Also wouldn't mind some cost reduction on skills or a buff to Eruption (it costs a ton and could do more damage.) MagDK's sustain is so bad and this is the final nail in the coffin.

Power Lash proc off burning is an interesting idea

Yes this is a brilliant idea.

It should be a thing.

DDuke

You guys really want to make destro staff the new dominant meta?

If Flame Lash procced from Burning, everyone would run destro (since it literally doubles your chance of proccing burning). I've close to 100% uptime of it on my mag DK

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

You guys really want to make destro staff the new dominant meta?

If Flame Lash procced from Burning, everyone would run destro (since it literally doubles your chance of proccing burning). I've close to 100% uptime of it on my mag DK

I'm all for things that split mDK from Sword & Board in PvP.

casparian

DDuke wrote: »

You guys really want to make destro staff the new dominant meta?

If Flame Lash procced from Burning, everyone would run destro (since it literally doubles your chance of proccing burning). I've close to 100% uptime of it on my mag DK

Nothing wrong with a destro staff meta. Better than a S&B permablock meta.

But DW or S&B mDKs running BSW would still get high enough uptime on Burning to get strong Lash procs, so it wouldn't force everyone into running destro staff.

Apoxsee

Something needs to change with power lash for pvp... damn near 100% up time. I can’t believe that pve change has finally broken the pvp world

Apoxsee

Before one would have to invest in a certain weapon with a certain skill from that weapon to reliably be able to power lash like this... no it is every weapon line with no additional skill, the Dk apocalypse is forth coming my friends.

ak_pvp

Apoxsee wrote: »

Something needs to change with power lash for pvp... damn near 100% up time. I can’t believe that pve change has finally broken the pvp world

This is actually pretty funny. I shall quote this everytime I see an angry PvEr.

Stania

mpicklesster wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

If I read that correctly I can only use the shards synergy once every 30 seconds? While also increasing block cost?

^^^^This. I understand ZOS's need to address permablock builds in PvP. However, since this is primarily a PvP gripe, it should be remedied with PvP filters such as Battle Spirit. Many forum threads have already offered numerous ways of remedying permablock builds via Battle Spirit. @ZOS_GinaBruno, if you have any say in the matter, could you redirect the developer's attention to those threads for some helpful suggestions?

I'm sure that I'm biased because I'm primarily a PvE trials tank. However, I think that me and other such tanks can attest to the fact that resource management is already tedious enough--and that permablocking is necessary in many parts of PvE; especially for the harder boss fights in vet trials and dungeons (e.g., the axes in vAA, the Mantikora in vSO, the Serpent in vSO, off-tanking the adds during the Serpent and Ozara boss fights in vSO, the Warrior in vHRC, the Air Atronach boss in vHRC, Velidreth in vCoS, many boss fights in vDSA, etc.). These such boss fights have little room for weaving in light or heavy attacks to regain stamina. Usually, attempts to weave in a heavy attack in these situations results in someone having to spend a soul gem on the tank!

Also, resource management has become progressively more tedious with each patch--which makes the tedious role of tanking even less enjoyable. Also keep in mind that, because the currently proposed changes to shards and block cost reduction are effectively a sustain nerf, they will disproportionately affect newer players (who notoriously struggle more with sustain). This will attract fewer of them to the role of tanking--which could negatively affect the growth of the PvE community for newer players.

Please, please, please reconsider alternative remedies to PvP permablock builds! Otherwise, the currently proposed changes will only inflate the perception that the developers lack the ability to balance PvP without hurting PvE.

Sincerely,

A player slowly loosing his will to tank trials

Freakin' this.

In a guild of almost 100 members, I'm currently the only tank who has experience on vet trials and hard vet pledges, so I spent weeks convincing other members (specially dps) to give tanking a try to raise our numbers, some agreed and we started to train and farm equipment three weeks ago.

Now, I'm sure more than one will drop after this patch, because tanking was already difficult and tedious enough for them.

And here's something that kinda pissed me off: A guy from an "elite" latinamerican guild stated and defended that it's a good change because it will warrant that truly good tanks can be recognized for being the only ones capable to do their job properly. What a cheap excuse to justify his cravings of e-peen caressing in expense of many tanks in training.

Stania

sorry, double post

Volwahl

So if I'm to understand these changes to Off Balance correctly, my ShockSorc build is just obsolete now huh? Why? Seriously why? Can someone please explain to me why ZOS decided to destroy Off Balance? I'm part of a Vet Trials Team and Off Balance up time is one of my main jobs. Its what allows me to play at a high level the way I want to, with overwhelming amounts of Lightning. And now it looks like I'll have to become just another cookie-cutter build. And the biggest irony is how ZOS featured Xynode's "Easy Mode Sorc" build not too long ago (which is similar to my ShockSorc that focuses on Off Balance uptime), and now they've dedicated to defecate all over it. I just want someone to seriously explain to me why ZOS just killed Shock centric builds. I'm imagining its because this is ESO, where you're gonna play exactly how ZOS wants you to, and you're gonna like it. And I just finally got my Gold Netch's Touch Rings, what an extra slap in the face.

rustic_potato

Volwahl wrote: »

So if I'm to understand these changes to Off Balance correctly, my ShockSorc build is just obsolete now huh? Why? Seriously why? Can someone please explain to me why ZOS decided to destroy Off Balance? I'm part of a Vet Trials Team and Off Balance up time is one of my main jobs. Its what allows me to play at a high level the way I want to, with overwhelming amounts of Lightning. And now it looks like I'll have to become just another cookie-cutter build. And the biggest irony is how ZOS featured Xynode's "Easy Mode Sorc" build not too long ago (which is similar to my ShockSorc that focuses on Off Balance uptime), and now they've dedicated to defecate all over it. I just want someone to seriously explain to me why ZOS just killed Shock centric builds. I'm imagining its because this is ESO, where you're gonna play exactly how ZOS wants you to, and you're gonna like it. And I just finally got my Gold Netch's Touch Rings, what an extra slap in the face.

A game is always going to evolve and change. You either adapt or stop playing. That is how balancing works else it becomes stale and boring.

Jeremiah87

I really like the removed AOE caps and the changes to resource management, meaning block cost and double resources on heavy attacking off-ballance enemies. Especially the double res heavy attack feels very rewarding for using mechanics properly.

Volwahl

To Rustic, what they've done isn't balancing. Roughly 75% decrease in Off Balance uptime, seriously? Its invalidating a play style. Which I suppose is how ZOS "Balances". And I'm guessing what you mean by "adapting" is to become a cookie cutter meta build. My frustration is that a game that was supposed to be "play how you want" has just become one meta after another. If I play how I want now, all Vet end game content will be closed to my preferred build that up until now has been effective and fun. Unless its not as bad as it sounds, which is what I came here to find out. Not to be told once again that I'm gonna have to play this exactly how ZO$ wants me to or not play at all.

rustic_potato

Volwahl wrote: »

To Rustic, what they've done isn't balancing. Roughly 75% decrease in Off Balance uptime, seriously? Its invalidating a play style. Which I suppose is how ZOS "Balances". And I'm guessing what you mean by "adapting" is to become a cookie cutter meta build. My frustration is that a game that was supposed to be "play how you want" has just become one meta after another. If I play how I want now, all Vet end game content will be closed to my preferred build that up until now has been effective and fun. Unless its not as bad as it sounds, which is what I came here to find out. Not to be told once again that I'm gonna have to play this exactly how ZO$ wants me to or not play at all.

I agree this type of balancing is a bit extreme but ZOS has always done this and I have accepted it as a part of this game. The build that I have on live may not work next patch. I will proceed to find something that works for me. That is one of the reasons this game is fun. If you play multiple roles across multiple classes you will find something that fits your needs and works.

Epicasballs

The PvE and PvP magDK's are really split on the new off balance changes and how it affects power lash. I like the idea of having a free cast on burning enemies but why can't both halves be happy.

Hear me out... why not leave power lash alone so if in the future it needs to be rebalanced for PvP it can be and instead change the other morph to proc on enemies affected by the burning status affect. Powerlash can be a timed burst damage/heal for PvP while the other morph still grants a minor bonus to spell power of Adrent Flame skills but does not heal and could still proc an empowered free cast version on burning enemies.

A utility morph versus a damage morph that function in a similar way to one another but proc off different affects. This would also mean DK's could use flame wall again in PvE and rely on themselves for their own damage without needing 6 lightning walls in the group to help them get by. Give us DK's a choice between controlled burst and more heals versus more sustained damage and less heals. Thanks.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Emma_Overload

Didgerion wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[img][/img]

• When a cast time or channeled ability is interrupted, you will be staggered, stunned, and set Off Balance. After the stun ends, you gain crowd control immunity.
• Crowd control immunity now grants immunity to all interrupt effects. After a cast time or channeled ability is interrupted, you will be immune to any future interrupts until crowd control immunity wears off.

Does it mean that as soon as I break free from a stun I can Dark Deal in the enemy's face without being interrupted?
Not sure if that's what community asked for - But I'll take it - my Heavy Armor Sorc might be OP again!

But on a serious note ZOS - So much invested time to create this cluttered mechanic? WHY?
The current channeled mechanics works just fine!!!

Not really. Sorcerers have been forced to carry Resto staff even though we have two potentially great self heals. Dark Conversion and Twilight Matriarch both require successful casts, which are impossible if someone is determined to bash you.

You may not realize it, but some people like me have been asking for a change to the current mechanic for a long time.

Emma_Overload

Derra wrote: »

Smmokkee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MagDK using 5x powerlash in a row will not be good for pvp.

Omg right!

I think the powerlash move is just bad. Magdks are gonna be even nastier in pvp. Lol.

Crowd control immunity should not last 7 seconds either. If its 3 seconds to cast again after a ability was interrupted it should be 3 seconds of uninterruptible abilities. 7 seconds?? Thats like a complete fight reset for stam sorcs.

I personally think the healing on dark deal/conversion should be reduced but otherwise the interrupt changes go in the right direction.
Interruptable skills are currently absolutely undesireable/unusable and this changes will put them in a better spot.

So our previously nearly useless heal is about to become occasionally useful, and you want it nerfed before we even get to use it? It doesn't even crit!

Qbiken

Block-changes:

Moglijuana wrote: »

Grabmoore wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Grabmoore wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

DosPanchos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MagDK using 5x powerlash in a row will not be good for pvp.

I believe the notes say power lash stuns enemy players which ends off balance...

You can set them off balance AFTER they have CC immunity making it get x4 free power lashes, I tested and confirmed it works.

While that sounds awesome...it probably needs to be looked at. Last thing everyone would want in pvp is a bunch of newb MDK's getting a bunch of free damage + heals throughout the entirety of a fight. Maybe increase the GCD of power lash so you can only get 2 off?

Please think objectivly. MagDKs might be dead in PvE due to upcoming off balance changes. Your suggestion puts the nail in the coffin. The game should not be balanced around the minority that is PvP.

I don't have a solution, but CD to Whip is not the answer.

They made these off balance changes for PvE in the first place...so uh... Regardless, a bunch of free power lashes in PvE seems broken too. Giving a small window to use as many power lashes seems fine for now, it just depends on how long a target stays off balance. If it is too long, than every single MagDD will switch to magDK which will just end up getting the class gutted all over again. Put it this way...I have a 14k Power Lash tooltip (on a PvP build mind you)...do you REALLY think it would be fair if I can get 4 off in a row leading to another stun to get another 4 off? Yea that's broken...even in PvE that would be broken.

Do you play PvE? MagDKs have the worst sustain out of all classes. Right now, the class is tolerated only by few guilds and is only viable with 80% off balance (we do hit 4+ flame leashes in a row in PvE).

If the current state of perma offbalance bosses from PTS doesn't stay, the new changes will lead to around 25% offbalance. This is a direct death wish to magdk.

You could think for a better way? Go ahead, but don't let PvP overtake all the balance decisions. It's a niche.

Someone suggested letting Power lash proc off the burning effect instead. that would be a Way, maybe. Burning could be purged at least.

I used to back when MagDK was near top DD yea. PvE turned extremely stale for me, community on console is toxic as can be and to be quite honest, I'm not a fan of the "Run through trials as fast as you can to compete".

Did you not read the in the PTS notes where they said they wanted to have heavy attacks done to maximize resource return at certain parts of boss fights (THIS WOULD BE DURING OFF BALANCE)? There is your resource solution. And it would affect everyone. If you say 80% is the current uptime of off balance...that seems way too high to begin with. That is probably the main problem as to why stam DD is so strong right now as well.

ALSO FLAME LASH USED TO BE A PVP ABILITY . But because off balance is now so prevalent and easy to upkeep, flame lash is used instead. It shouldn't be like that. Why choose an ability that stuns and heals (utility) vs an ability that is supposed to "technically" give you more dps overall? When you run in trials as a DD, healing should be your last priority. Seems like they want to capitalize on that change now.

Instead of making MDKs viable only during off balance (you say 80% right now) change them so they are viable for the whole fight and not just during off balance. Relying strictly on Flame Lash Procs and a BiS monster set seems like an extremely lame way to make MDK viable again.

And yes, I think being able to proc off burning enemies seems like a logical solution. Because you said it yourself, burning can be purged off and provides counter play in pvp.

Reducing uptime of off-balance (without giving magDK´s something in return) will make them less viable than they´re now. ATM magDK is "strictly" Flame-lash (which is sad) Sure you get more resources on heavy attacks when a target is off-balance but most guilds will try to use that time to do more damage. And only reason flame-lash became a PvE ability is due to the horrible sustain hits magDK (and other classes) took with Morrowind, I agree you shouldn´t be forced into a "no-brainer" situation (and the extra healing from lash is actually really useful in trials). The reason stamDD´s do so much damage compared to magicka DD´s is due to the sets they´ve at hand + vMA bow (which is the sinlge most DPS increasing piece of gear in the game)

Derra

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Smmokkee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MagDK using 5x powerlash in a row will not be good for pvp.

Omg right!

I think the powerlash move is just bad. Magdks are gonna be even nastier in pvp. Lol.

Crowd control immunity should not last 7 seconds either. If its 3 seconds to cast again after a ability was interrupted it should be 3 seconds of uninterruptible abilities. 7 seconds?? Thats like a complete fight reset for stam sorcs.

I personally think the healing on dark deal/conversion should be reduced but otherwise the interrupt changes go in the right direction.
Interruptable skills are currently absolutely undesireable/unusable and this changes will put them in a better spot.

So our previously nearly useless heal is about to become occasionally useful, and you want it nerfed before we even get to use it? It doesn't even crit!

In my opinion it´s not a heal - it´s the sorc classes resource recovery mechanic.

Seleval

The Block Cost.
In pve its meh. For pvp i can understand it.

1 idea, you already managed to half shields and healing in pvp, maybe make the cost of block a little higher for only pvp
(I assume this change was made because of perma blockers. In PVP. In pve, the 1thing that will definitely kill a tank is a oneshot when they arent blocking.

Other than that.Maybe revert the 30 seconds cooldown of synergies back to 20. OR make shards and orbs independet from each other again.

Cheers.

Lord_Ninka

I find it interesting how many people imply that a permablock build is the only viable option for end-game pve tanks. I don't have enough experience as a tank to tell for myself, but I can't help wondering, doesn't anyone disagree? Can't you tank end-game stuff without a permablock build?

If end-game PvE tanks really are forced into a permablock build, then I think that's an issue in itself. In my opinion it would be very bad for the game and the freedom we have in our builds if it's impossible to ever drop your block even for an occasional heavy attack.

Carbonised

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You guys really want to make destro staff the new dominant meta?

If Flame Lash procced from Burning, everyone would run destro (since it literally doubles your chance of proccing burning). I've close to 100% uptime of it on my mag DK

I'm all for things that split mDK from Sword & Board in PvP.

Yes, yes, and a million times yes. I don't like being forced into neither sword/shield nor heavy to be viable in open world PvP.

Inferno staff should be the default go-to weapon for a MagDK in PvE and PvP both.

ak_pvp

Carbonised wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You guys really want to make destro staff the new dominant meta?

If Flame Lash procced from Burning, everyone would run destro (since it literally doubles your chance of proccing burning). I've close to 100% uptime of it on my mag DK

I'm all for things that split mDK from Sword & Board in PvP.

Yes, yes, and a million times yes. I don't like being forced into neither sword/shield nor heavy to be viable in open world PvP.

Inferno staff should be the default go-to weapon for a MagDK in PvE and PvP both.

No pls. Forced into block is bad. But then forcing them into staff for better rng burning so that we can use our spammable is a bad idea. Because we still have a reliance on block for defense, it'd just lower their effectiveness.

DK should be like warden with enough self synergies in defense and offense that they can run any weapon. I.e. Lash now working with talons and wings for defense.

Mannix1958

rustic_potato wrote: »

Senaja wrote: »

Boss enemies can only be set Off Balance once every 15 to 20 seconds. After the first Off Balance debuff ends on a boss enemy, they will be immune to subsequent Off Balance debuffs until this immunity duration is over.

4 Second Uptime and 15 Second cooldown?! 26,6% Uptime? or did I understand that incorrectly?

Yes. Good riddance to groups built around off balance uptime. Frankly it was annoying to do anything in PvE without off balance. This change will promote a bit more tactical play instead of boring monotonous DD rotations.

Yeah it sucked that my friend a shock tank could set mobs off balance so my Magicka DK could use whip more...great nerf to teamwork cause that's not tactics

Bevik

Lord_Ninka wrote: »

I find it interesting how many people imply that a permablock build is the only viable option for end-game pve tanks. I don't have enough experience as a tank to tell for myself, but I can't help wondering, doesn't anyone disagree? Can't you tank end-game stuff without a permablock build?

If end-game PvE tanks really are forced into a permablock build, then I think that's an issue in itself. In my opinion it would be very bad for the game and the freedom we have in our builds if it's impossible to ever drop your block even for an occasional heavy attack.

Said the same noone is commented. Everyone is whining about they have to drop the perma block for a heavy attack. Damn looks like tanks are very passive in this current state of game.

Zer0oo

It seems most of the people here were not on the pts and just spamming their usually QQ.

Also if you want to QQ about bad sustain I just welcome you to the club. Every mag class except mag nb has bad sustain after morrowind in pve and has to heavy attack a lot. If you want to complain do it at least for all classes since no one enjoys the morrowind changes in pve. A mag dk has at least a chance to play a light attack rotation with high off-balance uptime.



Testing anything on pts after the combat changes is right now kinda hard since combat metrics do not work and the training dummies also are not working like real boss enemies. Also i am not sure the off-balance and lightning woe works correctly since it actually makes it even on real bosses possible to get 100% off-balance.

Carbonised

ak_pvp wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You guys really want to make destro staff the new dominant meta?

If Flame Lash procced from Burning, everyone would run destro (since it literally doubles your chance of proccing burning). I've close to 100% uptime of it on my mag DK

I'm all for things that split mDK from Sword & Board in PvP.

Yes, yes, and a million times yes. I don't like being forced into neither sword/shield nor heavy to be viable in open world PvP.

Inferno staff should be the default go-to weapon for a MagDK in PvE and PvP both.

No pls. Forced into block is bad. But then forcing them into staff for better rng burning so that we can use our spammable is a bad idea. Because we still have a reliance on block for defense, it'd just lower their effectiveness.

DK should be like warden with enough self synergies in defense and offense that they can run any weapon. I.e. Lash now working with talons and wings for defense.

We're already "forced" into staff for every other aspect of this game. Like it or not, but inferno/lightning staves is the only viable option for magicka DPS in this game. The only exception has been going sword&shield in pvp for more survivability.
There is no "rng burning", burn applies consistently enough when you use an inferno staff, even more consistently with the BSW set. And inferno staff is much more synergetic with the magicka DPS skills and sets, as well as light armor passives.
Staff will always be the default weapon for how damage is calculated and implemented in this game. The only exception would be introducing a dual wielding magicka based weapon set, like many people have suggested before.

Skander

Just waiting for a warden-passives nerf. For now it has all the good stuff

tripletea

Please stay away from the warden, I swear warden tanking is the only thing keeping me playing this game right now. DK tanking is way to boring and the class as a whole feels stale and way to rigid. If they nerfed warden to the point of non-viability I would just out right quit and go back to one of my other mmos.