PTS Update 17 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for general combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

Senaja

Boss enemies can only be set Off Balance once every 15 to 20 seconds. After the first Off Balance debuff ends on a boss enemy, they will be immune to subsequent Off Balance debuffs until this immunity duration is over.

4 Second Uptime and 15 Second cooldown?! 26,6% Uptime? or did I understand that incorrectly?

Mic1007

Senaja wrote: »

Boss enemies can only be set Off Balance once every 15 to 20 seconds. After the first Off Balance debuff ends on a boss enemy, they will be immune to subsequent Off Balance debuffs until this immunity duration is over.

4 Second Uptime and 15 Second cooldown?! 26,6% Uptime? or did I understand that incorrectly?

Goodbye heavy attack builds.

Chilly-McFreeze

From Bone Shield:

"If an ally uses the synergy and applies the damage shield to you, you will now also be placed on cooldown for that synergy."

I always thought the synergy applies the shield only on them, not on the caster. Am I wrong or is that changed?


Also, from Atronach:

"This will result in higher damage done for Magicka or Stamina builds, but may result in less damage done for hybrid builds."

I'm a bit split on this one. It's nice that the Atronach gets a little boost but less damage done on hybrids... yes, exactly what this game needs...

CavalryPK

can any one please check shadow image and if it is working properly ? I think they missed the comment about it.

Senaja

Mic1007 wrote: »

Senaja wrote: »

Boss enemies can only be set Off Balance once every 15 to 20 seconds. After the first Off Balance debuff ends on a boss enemy, they will be immune to subsequent Off Balance debuffs until this immunity duration is over.

4 Second Uptime and 15 Second cooldown?! 26,6% Uptime? or did I understand that incorrectly?

Goodbye heavy attack builds.

Goodbye Offbalance? HA dont consume Offbalance anymore.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos

"Blood Altar
Increased the radius of the Minor Lifesteal debuff applied by this ability and its morphs to 28 meters from 8 meters."

Would be nice if you could remove the casting time of this skill aswell.

Hamburglarjones

Senaja wrote: »

Boss enemies can only be set Off Balance once every 15 to 20 seconds. After the first Off Balance debuff ends on a boss enemy, they will be immune to subsequent Off Balance debuffs until this immunity duration is over.

4 Second Uptime and 15 Second cooldown?! 26,6% Uptime? or did I understand that incorrectly?

That's what I took from it aswell. Just terrible....

ManDraKE

Now that the movement penalty while casting channels is reduced, can we PLEASE remove or nerf the hell of the Soul Assault's snare? IS A 70% SNARE!!

Yo_Donno

Hamburglarjones wrote: »

Senaja wrote: »

Boss enemies can only be set Off Balance once every 15 to 20 seconds. After the first Off Balance debuff ends on a boss enemy, they will be immune to subsequent Off Balance debuffs until this immunity duration is over.

4 Second Uptime and 15 Second cooldown?! 26,6% Uptime? or did I understand that incorrectly?

That's what I took from it aswell. Just terrible....

Yup. RIP Trials DPS as it is now. New meta incoming for sure... but what?
EDIT: Looks like concussed status effects refresh the off-balance counter so maybe with asylum staffs this can be mitigated?

Bowser

Very disappointed that my block cost will be almost quadrupled through the formula change.

Izaki

Yo_Donno wrote: »

Hamburglarjones wrote: »

Senaja wrote: »

Boss enemies can only be set Off Balance once every 15 to 20 seconds. After the first Off Balance debuff ends on a boss enemy, they will be immune to subsequent Off Balance debuffs until this immunity duration is over.

4 Second Uptime and 15 Second cooldown?! 26,6% Uptime? or did I understand that incorrectly?

That's what I took from it aswell. Just terrible....

Yup. RIP Trials DPS as it is now. New meta incoming for sure... but what?
EDIT: Looks like concussed status effects refresh the off-balance counter so maybe with asylum staffs this can be mitigated?

Not really. Nothing will change aside from the CP distribution for magicka builds basically. Heavy attacks will still be necessary for sustain, they just do terrible damage 75% of the time during a boss fight. And all magicka builds will be dealing 10% less damage in general 75% of the time during a boss fight, BUT depending on how you alter the CP distribution, the damage loss from not having the Exploiter passive anymore will probably be minimal.

This is actually a buff to light attack builds, since Stam DKs and Stam Sorcs will be dealing 75% less damage with their heavy attacks 75% of the time. Which is a good thing since those two classes have braindead easy rotations and the highest DPS. Now for magicka heavy attack builds, this is also a pretty big and I'd like to say unnecessary nerf, so a lot of changes will have to come in Pet Sorc builds and Mag DKs HA builds.

dirtykdx

Bowser wrote: »

Very disappointed that my block cost will be almost quadrupled through the formula change.

If my math is correct, with 4 sturdy, 3 block cost reduction, 75 cp into block cost, and absorb magic on the bar, I go from 202 to 421.

2160
x (1 - 16% ) // sturdy
x (1 - 24% ) // cp
x (1 - 36% ) // fortress
x (1 - 8%) // asorb magic
- 609 block cost reduction
= 202
** this might be 250, I don't recall if the 8% skill cost is taken after the 609 flat reduction currently, 202 sounds on the low side though

1730
-609 = 1121 // new base with cost reduction removed
x (1 - 16% ) // sturdy
x (1 - 24% ) // cp
x (1 - 36% ) // fortress
x (1 - 8% ) //absorb magic
= 421

In other words...ewwwwww

usmcjdking

The offbalance changes in conjunction with players is concerning because it's not worded appropriately or it's worded correctly and completely broken.

Mag DK is the only class that is easily capable of achieving and utilizing off balance (discounting WW).

As it currently reads. I can fossilize straight into whip and power lash x5. Re apply embers & engulfing then rinse repeat. I essentially have a free undodgeable spammable that heals me for 5 digits over 2 seconds. In that very simple rotation half my casts are free.

Is this how it's intended to work?

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Block Cost: I hope that this wasn't a PvP based fix. Perma-Block was never the issue in PvP. If 5 people target a perma-blocker, they are going to melt in PvP and they can die happy with a full bar of stamina. The issue was never blocking, it was ways (some of them underhanded) to get high degrees of healing/mitigation. That is a lot harder to achieve (legally) than permablocking.

Gap closer damage reduction: Who asked for this? This one falls in the "Fixes for things that weren't broken" department. Crit rush was always an attractive morph because of the extra damage. If you want to balance things, make Stampede more attractive (instead of nerfing it too). Templar charge was always a clunky ability and was pretty weak as it was. Totally didn't need a nerf? And shield charge? Its not the shield charge that kills you, its the thing that comes after.

Channeled skills: I like the immunity to interrupt when CC immune. Channeled abilities are a pain to use but this might just give them some situational strategic purpose. Will have to test.

New Proc Sets:
5pc Ganker's Paradise

When you deal Critical Damage with a single target Magicka ability, you launch a Fire, Ice, Shock, or Disease ball at your target that deals 12,900 damage and applies a status effect. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

What was the point of nerfing viper again? Do you like proc sets or hate them? Are they good or bad for the game? This looks like a gankers paradise set. I'm not complaining because I've accepted ganking as part of the game. There are ways to counter ganks. But you keep nerfing damage from stealth, NB burst. So do you want ganks or not?

AOE CAPS:
Wow, that took a while. However I'm not sure they are going to do what you think they are going to do. I'm glad we finally get to test them though. But I think this is going to be a huge buff to those stack on crown and spam AOE groups that are infesting cyrodiil. Since they will have more timed burst and more timed heals. I know these groups feel they are necessary "to stop zergs" but most of the time, they are the zerg, and the "zergs" they wipe are just non-grouped players. This will have to go to live and see how it really works though.

RinaldoGandolphi

Hi,

I thought this set of changes look pretty good. I only have one issue I think needs to be addressed.

1. Why are melee cast time abilities being favored over ranged cast time abilities, considering most of these melee cast time abilties have powerful CC effects attached to them?

Per the patch notes:

Melee cast time and channeled abilities (Uppercut, Puncturing Strikes, etc.) and some ranged abilities (Rapid Fire) are still exceptions to this rule and allow you to move at full speed.

When an ability is interrupted, it is now put on a 3-second cooldown where it cannot be used.

Melee cast time and channeled abilities (Uppercut, Puncturing Strikes, etc.), Ultimate abilities (Soul Strike, Rite of Passage, etc.), and Heavy Attacks are still exceptions to this rule and cannot be interrupted.

All cast time abilities need to be able to be interrupted to be consistent and to give valid counter play. Its absolutely infuriating that someone can do a full heavy resto stafff attack or charge up a Dizzying Swing in my face and I can't interrupt them, yet if i try and cast a Crystal Blast in their face they can bash me? i mean face it, ranged combat makes up less then 20% of the games PVP combat because everyone is up in your face due to gap closers still being overtuned despite the damage reductions this update. Gap Closers still perma snare you with a charge snare, and still have no penalty for spamming them, making ranged combat almost impossible.

All Heavy attacks, Soul Strike, and Uppercut need to be able to be interupted with a bash (I can understand exempting them from Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow) but if someone gets up in your face and wants to use Dizzying Swing or a Heavy Attack you should be able to bash then and stop them if you have the stamina to do so. This is the essence of skillful counterplay...if I can't hard cast a Crystal Blast in someones face, I shouldn't be able to hard cast an Uppercut or Heavy Attack either.

Furthermore, Puncturing Strikes/Biting Jabs already snares you by 70%(which is way too much) their should be a small movement speed penalty of at least 10% for the casting Puncturing/Jabs Templar. I mean afterall your already snaring your target by 70% with no cooldown....its not like your going to be moving slower then your target while your target has a permanent 70% snare on them.

Soul Strike needs to go back to being interruptible but not blockable, as the primary use of the skill was for dealing with permablockers and permarollers.

Other then that I think you folks did a good job

just make all skills(melee or ranged) with cast times able to be interupted and make heavy attacks interuptable again and you have a winner. If someone wants to use a melee or ranged cast time skilll and not get interupted, they should have to use an immovable pot.

PS: Immovable pots are still too strong...15 seconds of CC immunity is way too strong for a potion, it really ought to be reduced to around 7.5 to 8 seconds at most...15 seconds is an eternity in PVP

Take care

Hutch679

dirtykdx wrote: »

Bowser wrote: »

Very disappointed that my block cost will be almost quadrupled through the formula change.

If my math is correct, with 4 sturdy, 3 block cost reduction, 75 cp into block cost, and absorb magic on the bar, I go from 202 to 421.

2160
x (1 - 16% ) // sturdy
x (1 - 24% ) // cp
x (1 - 36% ) // fortress
x (1 - 8%) // asorb magic
- 609 block cost reduction
= 202

1730
-609 = 1121 // new base with cost reduction removed
x (1 - 16% ) // sturdy
x (1 - 24% ) // cp
x (1 - 36% ) // fortress
x (1 - 8% ) //absorb magic
= 421

In other words...ewwwwww

This makes half my face frown and the other half smile. I think I'm having a stroke...

Mustard

No changes to making birds dodgeable, nerfing seventh/fury/truth (how is it ok for a heavy armor user to get 5k weapon dmg?), reduce the snare on soul assault by 50%, and for the love of god fix CLOAK.

rustic_potato

Senaja wrote: »

Boss enemies can only be set Off Balance once every 15 to 20 seconds. After the first Off Balance debuff ends on a boss enemy, they will be immune to subsequent Off Balance debuffs until this immunity duration is over.

4 Second Uptime and 15 Second cooldown?! 26,6% Uptime? or did I understand that incorrectly?

Yes. Good riddance to groups built around off balance uptime. Frankly it was annoying to do anything in PvE without off balance. This change will promote a bit more tactical play instead of boring monotonous DD rotations.

Nibelaja

New Zaan monsterset seems to be nice for magicka melees, correct me if im wrong:

(3440 + 1,5 x 3440 + 1,5^2 x 3440 + 1,5^3 x 3440 + 1,5^4 x 3440)/15 = 3024,33 DPS

With good weaving you should be able to maintain the uptime flawless.

TrinityBreaker

Can we get some love for the stam DK(pvp wise)?

Having to hugely rely on weapon skill lines and heavy armor(for the most part) Is getting real old real fast. It honestly pains me to play him now despite maining him(for pvp) for the better part of 17 months.

Runefang

If I read that correctly I can only use the shards synergy once every 30 seconds? While also increasing block cost?

rustic_potato

Bowser wrote: »

Very disappointed that my block cost will be almost quadrupled through the formula change.

Lol seriously? Do you have all gold sturdy and fully specced into block? It looks like about a 100% increase for most realistic tank builds.

Hutch679

It's 208% increase based on your current block cost.

arkansas_ESO

Since the functionality that enabled addons like Miat's to exist is being removed, can we look at ganking again? It's still completely possible to one-shot players from stealth before they can ever respond, and these sorts of builds are one of the things that scare away new players the most.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCHSKRqUodQ

You can do almost the same thing as a magic NB, too. I run 5pc Martial Knowledge with 5pc Knight Slayer and my inferno heavy+Soul Harvest can one-shot a max CP player with 25k health.

Suggestion: Make it to where you're unable to stealth on Overload bar (this affects Overload gankers and nobody else) and channel abilities (Crystal Fragments, Snipe, heavy attacks) pull you out of stealth/cloak as soon as you begin to cast them instead of when they hit.

Tommy_The_Gun

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Waiting for someone to notice the first line in the Combat section...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General

• Area of Effect abilities now deal full damage to all targets hit, instead of having a damage penalty after hitting 7 or more targets. Secondary effects from those Area of Effect abilities (snares, stuns, etc.) are still capped at 6 targets.
  Developer Comment:
  We want to encourage more tactical group play where players are encouraged to spread out instead of stacking in a tight ball. We’re still evaluating this aspect of AoE caps, and will make adjustments in the future as necessary.

I don't know what is the logic behind it but AOE has almost no flaws.. it can't be dodged, it can't be blocked. 90% of skills used in PvP is APE for this very reason.
ZOS - you are saying the same thing as you said a couple of patches ago when destro ulti (Elemental Storm -> Eye of the Storm morph) was introduced.

Back then you said something like this:

It will encouraged to spread out.

All that happened is it created this "zerg" thigh blob groups in the first place. They take full advantage of no player collision and stack 10 Eye of the Storms in one place. There is no counter for something like this if you play solo. All you can do is run. And in some cases you don't even have time to react - yes even in full heavy armour with Impenetrable trait you just die instantly. The only counter for such a "zerg" group is another "zerg" group.

Now you say this:

We want to encourage more tactical group play where players are encouraged to spread out instead of stacking in a tight ball. We’re still evaluating this aspect of AoE caps, and will make adjustments in the future as necessary.

Don't you get it ? Everything so far that was designed as anti - "zerg" (anti big group stacking) only makes such a strategy stronger. You really want to change PvP (player vs player) into even bigger AOE "zerg" festival ? Please. Don't make the same mistake twice.

Here is my suggestion:

AOE are currently a blight in Cyrodiil PvP. More buffs to it means more people using it. And as I stated above - AOE has literally no disadvantages or drawbacks. It can't be dodged or blocked. Other skill don't have any advantages like that whatsoever. Please. Think of this.
Making AOE stronger will make "stacking in a tight ball" strategy even stronger as those "zergs" use AOE skills themselves.

Here are some ideas that you can use as a base:

- If you want AOE to have no target cap you should tone down the damage way down... like about 50% - 60% down. (of course only in PvP so it would not affect PvE).

- Add a cap for "skill effect" so if you are receiving damage from an AOE - you will not receive any other damage unless it is a different skill (so if you are taking damage from 10 Eye of the Storms and the cap is 3 - you will only receive damage from 3 of them. The other AOE damage you can receive will be from different skills like Caltrops).

- Instead of encoring people to use AOE skills - try to encourage the to use "single target", non AOE type of skills. This might help a lot.

- Add some disadvantages for AOE skills. make it dodge-able or block-able.

Keep in mind this - something that has the lest amount of counters is always abused / over-used in any PvP game. Right now in eso PvP this is AOE mechanics.

Saint_Bud

Offbalance was not a problem. You destroys it because bad groups cant manage to get high uptime, so better groups should also have a bad uptime, just nice ZOS. Also it will not help bad players to have better sustain, because player like a constant rotation because its easy. Things that are hard will not be popolär ZOS. The next thing is that the group dps is going down with this cahnge and this hurts non hardcore groups really hard. There will nearly not a reason to raid anymore for this groups beside having fun with the group because, of no chance to complete some achivments like vmol hm, vhof timerun and vas hm. Why they should keep on raidind for month while they have all gear and can see that they in moast case will not be able to manage that (to all hardcore palyers, please note that so many of you quit the game and there are no reason to make some content for max 200 players per server in the future).

Ankael07

When you deal Critical Damage with a single target Magicka ability, you launch a Fire, Ice, Shock, or Disease ball at your target that deals 12,900 damage and applies a status effect. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.


This set needs a build-up time before the projectile goes off. Because no matter how slow the projectile is when you fire it from point-blank range it will leave no chance of counterplay.

Couple this with Stygian as a NB with cloak or a Sorcerer with Overload and watch the new generation of one-shot builds.

Minno

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Waiting for someone to notice the first line in the Combat section...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General

• Area of Effect abilities now deal full damage to all targets hit, instead of having a damage penalty after hitting 7 or more targets. Secondary effects from those Area of Effect abilities (snares, stuns, etc.) are still capped at 6 targets.
  Developer Comment:
  We want to encourage more tactical group play where players are encouraged to spread out instead of stacking in a tight ball. We’re still evaluating this aspect of AoE caps, and will make adjustments in the future as necessary.

I don't know what is the logic behind it but AOE has almost no flaws.. it can't be dodged, it can't be blocked. 90% of skills used in PvP is APE for this very reason.
ZOS - you are saying the same thing as you said a couple of patches ago when destro ulti (Elemental Storm -> Eye of the Storm morph) was introduced.

Back then you said something like this:

It will encouraged to spread out.

All that happened is it created this "zerg" thigh blob groups in the first place. They take full advantage of no player collision and stack 10 Eye of the Storms in one place. There is no counter for something like this if you play solo. All you can do is run. And in some cases you don't even have time to react - yes even in full heavy armour with Impenetrable trait you just die instantly. The only counter for such a "zerg" group is another "zerg" group.

Now you say this:

We want to encourage more tactical group play where players are encouraged to spread out instead of stacking in a tight ball. We’re still evaluating this aspect of AoE caps, and will make adjustments in the future as necessary.

Don't you get it ? Everything so far that was designed as anti - "zerg" (anti big group stacking) only makes such a strategy stronger. You really want to change PvP (player vs player) into even bigger AOE "zerg" festival ? Please. Don't make the same mistake twice.

Here is my suggestion:

AOE are currently a blight in Cyrodiil PvP. More buffs to it means more people using it. And as I stated above - AOE has literally no disadvantages or drawbacks. It can't be dodged or blocked. Other skill don't have any advantages like that whatsoever. Please. Think of this.
Making AOE stronger will make "stacking in a tight ball" strategy even stronger as those "zergs" use AOE skills themselves.

Here are some ideas that you can use as a base:

- If you want AOE to have no target cap you should tone down the damage way down... like about 50% - 60% down. (of course only in PvP so it would not affect PvE).

- Add a cap for "skill effect" so if you are receiving damage from an AOE - you will not receive any other damage unless it is a different skill (so if you are taking damage from 10 Eye of the Storms and the cap is 3 - you will only receive damage from 3 of them. The other AOE damage you can receive will be from different skills like Caltrops).

- Instead of encoring people to use AOE skills - try to encourage the to use "single target", non AOE type of skills. This might help a lot.

- Add some disadvantages for AOE skills. make it dodge-able or block-able.

Keep in mind this - something that has the lest amount of counters is always abused / over-used in any PvP game. Right now in eso PvP this is AOE mechanics.

Mobility should be the direct counter to ground based/AOEs, in my opinion. Aside from some ultimates, AOEs already deal less damage due to battlespirit.

And with Miat's addon potentially nerfed, you should see more high dmg single target abilities being used in cyro.

Derra

MagDK using 5x powerlash in a row will not be good for pvp.

ak_pvp

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Waiting for someone to notice the first line in the Combat section...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General

• Area of Effect abilities now deal full damage to all targets hit, instead of having a damage penalty after hitting 7 or more targets. Secondary effects from those Area of Effect abilities (snares, stuns, etc.) are still capped at 6 targets.
  Developer Comment:
  We want to encourage more tactical group play where players are encouraged to spread out instead of stacking in a tight ball. We’re still evaluating this aspect of AoE caps, and will make adjustments in the future as necessary.

I don't know what is the logic behind it but AOE has almost no flaws.. it can't be dodged, it can't be blocked. 90% of skills used in PvP is APE for this very reason.
ZOS - you are saying the same thing as you said a couple of patches ago when destro ulti (Elemental Storm -> Eye of the Storm morph) was introduced.

Back then you said something like this:

It will encouraged to spread out.

All that happened is it created this "zerg" thigh blob groups in the first place. They take full advantage of no player collision and stack 10 Eye of the Storms in one place. There is no counter for something like this if you play solo. All you can do is run. And in some cases you don't even have time to react - yes even in full heavy armour with Impenetrable trait you just die instantly. The only counter for such a "zerg" group is another "zerg" group.

Now you say this:

We want to encourage more tactical group play where players are encouraged to spread out instead of stacking in a tight ball. We’re still evaluating this aspect of AoE caps, and will make adjustments in the future as necessary.

Don't you get it ? Everything so far that was designed as anti - "zerg" (anti big group stacking) only makes such a strategy stronger. You really want to change PvP (player vs player) into even bigger AOE "zerg" festival ? Please. Don't make the same mistake twice.

Here is my suggestion:

AOE are currently a blight in Cyrodiil PvP. More buffs to it means more people using it. And as I stated above - AOE has literally no disadvantages or drawbacks. It can't be dodged or blocked. Other skill don't have any advantages like that whatsoever. Please. Think of this.
Making AOE stronger will make "stacking in a tight ball" strategy even stronger as those "zergs" use AOE skills themselves.

Here are some ideas that you can use as a base:

- If you want AOE to have no target cap you should tone down the damage way down... like about 50% - 60% down. (of course only in PvP so it would not affect PvE).

- Add a cap for "skill effect" so if you are receiving damage from an AOE - you will not receive any other damage unless it is a different skill (so if you are taking damage from 10 Eye of the Storms and the cap is 3 - you will only receive damage from 3 of them. The other AOE damage you can receive will be from different skills like Caltrops).

- Instead of encoring people to use AOE skills - try to encourage the to use "single target", non AOE type of skills. This might help a lot.

- Add some disadvantages for AOE skills. make it dodge-able or block-able.

Keep in mind this - something that has the lest amount of counters is always abused / over-used in any PvP game. Right now in eso PvP this is AOE mechanics.

Doesn't affect zeros anyway because they steamroller everyone. Massive buff for smallgroup/solo