Monthly Combat Update – December 2017

Doctordarkspawn

Liofa wrote: »

So the base block cost at the moment is 2160 . 20% reduction would make it 1728 . We already know that formula for block cost will be changed and Shield-Play enchantments will be calculated first . So , 3 of them makes 609 reduction .

1728 - 609 = 1119

If we calculate these passives as multiplicative ;

- 8 Sturdy , 32%
- Fortress , 36%
- Shadow Ward , 25%
- Defensive Posture , 8%

Block cost will be 336 (365 without Defensive Posture) Stamina . Right now , with these passives , your block cost will be 88 (95 without Defensive Posture) . Knowing most tanks do not use Defensive Posture , 365 - 95 = 270 Stamina . Correct me if I am wrong with my calculations btw . That is a huge difference . Not a gamebreaking difference but still big . Definitely going to make all PvP permablock tanks disappear and force PvE tanks to play smarter . Sounds good to be honest but I hope they make some changes to DKs and Templars because they highly depending on blocking to survive those nasty burst combos

I *** called it.

Yep, gonna nerf PVE tanks for the sake of PVP, while designing fights that force tanks the block most of the time, thus creating a bottleneck that will eventually result in tanks not being able to keep up with the content.

WHEN WILL YOU LEARN THAT YOUR ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES?!

Spoiler alert: The changes to temps and DK's will be nerfs.

Conduit0

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

So the base block cost at the moment is 2160 . 20% reduction would make it 1728 . We already know that formula for block cost will be changed and Shield-Play enchantments will be calculated first . So , 3 of them makes 609 reduction .

1728 - 609 = 1119

If we calculate these passives as multiplicative ;

- 8 Sturdy , 32%
- Fortress , 36%
- Shadow Ward , 25%
- Defensive Posture , 8%

Block cost will be 336 (365 without Defensive Posture) Stamina . Right now , with these passives , your block cost will be 88 (95 without Defensive Posture) . Knowing most tanks do not use Defensive Posture , 365 - 95 = 270 Stamina . Correct me if I am wrong with my calculations btw . That is a huge difference . Not a gamebreaking difference but still big . Definitely going to make all PvP permablock tanks disappear and force PvE tanks to play smarter . Sounds good to be honest but I hope they make some changes to DKs and Templars because they highly depending on blocking to survive those nasty burst combos

I *** called it.

Yep, gonna nerf PVE tanks for the sake of PVP, while designing fights that force tanks the block most of the time, thus creating a bottleneck that will eventually result in tanks not being able to keep up with the content.

WHEN WILL YOU LEARN THAT YOUR ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES?!

Spoiler alert: The changes to temps and DK's will be nerfs.

Yep, so glad I already retired my pve tank.

Savos_Saren

Magicka-based DKs and Templars: "Stand your ground"... without major mending, mobility, and blocking. Oh... and let's not forget how Major Defile is plentiful and buffed by CP. So all those "uber" self-heals are now moot.

RouDeR

Dont forget to fix Werewolf skills not being affected by Unchained .
Pack Leader Wolves not respawning after death and so on ...

WeylandLabs

Argonians 100% all resources returned and immuninty resistances passives in pvp are safe for yet another patch. Lol

Leinova

@ZOS_Wrobel

Are ANY of the Backlash (and both of it's morphs) bugs going to be addressed?

I can name off a few of the bugs I am aware of;

If you have two templars, using either of the morphs, they sometimes cancel the others damage.
Eg: Magplar casts purifying light, stamplar casts PotL,. 6 seconds later only Purifying Light deals damage, PotL explodes but deals no damage. This works with either morph. 2x PotL, 2x PL, or 1x PotL 1x PL.

Even if you DON'T have a second templar using a backlash morph, and you don't recast early, sometimes (more often than not) the damage STILL won't be applied. At first I thought this was a bug with combat metrics (telling me I casted 10 power of the lights but none of them dealing the explosion damage portion when I was the only templar in the group) but then I watched a video closely at .25x speed with the default in-game combat texts and you can clearly see Power of the light not dealing the damage it is supposed to.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Me883c4Gdsk

If you watch this video on .25x speed you can clearly see Power of the light not dealing it's explosion damage 50% of the time, despite him being the only templar in the group casting a backlash ability and not recasting it early.

For examples, go to 0:31 on .25x speed and watch the Combat texts, his power of the light timer and animation itself.
You'll see his power of the light explodes, you see a 24,722 WHITE damage splat as it explodes. This is what it looks like when power of the light actually deals it's damage.

At 0:45 you see him cast his ult and power of the light explodes at the same time. You can see 23.*k in white text, and 25.*k in white text. That is his ult and power of the light both hitting.

Now for PotL doesn't explode, despite no reasons for it to not;
0:23 it explodes while he isn't dealing any damage really at all. This one is painfully obvious that it didn't deal damage. He didn't recast it early either.
1:06 if you look closely you see that PotL doesn't deal damage here.
1:21 it doesn't deal damage.
1:28 ^
1:34 ^ etc etc you get the idea.

Destruent

Leinova wrote: »

@ZOS_Wrobel

Are ANY of the Backlash (and both of it's morphs) bugs going to be addressed?

I can name off a few of the bugs I am aware of;

If you have two templars, using either of the morphs, they sometimes cancel the others damage.
Eg: Magplar casts purifying light, stamplar casts PotL,. 6 seconds later only Purifying Light deals damage, PotL explodes but deals no damage. This works with either morph. 2x PotL, 2x PL, or 1x PotL 1x PL.

Even if you DON'T have a second templar using a backlash morph, and you don't recast early, sometimes (more often than not) the damage STILL won't be applied. At first I thought this was a bug with combat metrics (telling me I casted 10 power of the lights but none of them dealing the explosion damage portion when I was the only templar in the group) but then I watched a video closely at .25x speed with the default in-game combat texts and you can clearly see Power of the light not dealing the damage it is supposed to.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Me883c4Gdsk

If you watch this video on .25x speed you can clearly see Power of the light not dealing it's explosion damage 50% of the time, despite him being the only templar in the group casting a backlash ability and not recasting it early.

For examples, go to 0:31 on .25x speed and watch the Combat texts, his power of the light timer and animation itself.
You'll see his power of the light explodes, you see a 24,722 WHITE damage splat as it explodes. This is what it looks like when power of the light actually deals it's damage.

At 0:45 you see him cast his ult and power of the light explodes at the same time. You can see 23.*k in white text, and 25.*k in white text. That is his ult and power of the light both hitting.

Now for PotL doesn't explode, despite no reasons for it to not;
0:23 it explodes while he isn't dealing any damage really at all. This one is painfully obvious that it didn't deal damage. He didn't recast it early either.
1:06 if you look closely you see that PotL doesn't deal damage here.
1:21 it doesn't deal damage.
1:28 ^
1:34 ^ etc etc you get the idea.

great post @Leinova , could you repost it in the corresponding bugreport-thread i created?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/385501/bug-power-of-the-light-not-doing-any-damage-at-the-end#latest

just to collect everything regarding this bug in one thread

aeowulf

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Block Cost changes wont change anything. The whole no regen while blocking needs to be scrapped and make blocking for long periods of time scale harder and harder. Block casting shouldn't be a thing. People can weave heavy attacks and potions while being argonion and block forever..... regardless of the changes you make to blocking.

Exactly this, you are meant to be blocking not casting. If I could change it, I'd try something like this: (that's what PTS is for right?)

1. remove all block casting, only allow bash (optionally add in a skill you can cast whilst blocking in ice staff/1h& shield tree if required for balance)
2. block more damage from heavy/special attacks OR remove any chance of getting a crit/status effect
3. no mag/stam stat replenishment at all (regen or otherwise),
4. no movement (meant to be hiding behind a shield)
5. zero cost (This would balance the resource management around block across all classes)

would need some changes around interaction with GCD too

The whole idea of when to block needs to change and brought back in to the vison of fast combat, game needs to change to make it more appealing to not block unless absolutely required.

Right now DK & Warden are the only end game viable tanks, and whilst the whole perma-block thing is not the only reason, it certainly contributes a lot and puts them into 'easy mode' Other classes are suffering <in this role> because they are not as effective and a ton more complex which is not just down to block cost, but this is a thing.

Destruent

aeowulf wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Block Cost changes wont change anything. The whole no regen while blocking needs to be scrapped and make blocking for long periods of time scale harder and harder. Block casting shouldn't be a thing. People can weave heavy attacks and potions while being argonion and block forever..... regardless of the changes you make to blocking.

Exactly this, you are meant to be blocking not casting. If I could change it, I'd try something like this: (that's what PTS is for right?)

1. remove all block casting, only allow bash (optionally add in a skill you can cast whilst blocking in ice staff/1h& shield tree if required for balance)
2. block more damage from heavy/special attacks OR remove any chance of getting a crit/status effect
3. no mag/stam stat replenishment at all (regen or otherwise),
4. no movement (meant to be hiding behind a shield)
5. zero cost (This would balance the resource management around block across all classes)

would need some changes around interaction with GCD too

The whole idea of when to block needs to change and brought back in to the vison of fast combat, game needs to change to make it more appealing to not block unless absolutely required.

Right now DK & Warden are the only end game viable tanks, and whilst the whole perma-block thing is not the only reason, it certainly contributes a lot and puts them into 'easy mode' Other classes are suffering <in this role> because they are not as effective and a ton more complex which is not just down to block cost, but this is a thing.

The reason why DK and warden are the only viable tanks in endgame is NOT their ressource-management but their group support...

aeowulf

Destruent wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Block Cost changes wont change anything. The whole no regen while blocking needs to be scrapped and make blocking for long periods of time scale harder and harder. Block casting shouldn't be a thing. People can weave heavy attacks and potions while being argonion and block forever..... regardless of the changes you make to blocking.

Exactly this, you are meant to be blocking not casting. If I could change it, I'd try something like this: (that's what PTS is for right?)

1. remove all block casting, only allow bash (optionally add in a skill you can cast whilst blocking in ice staff/1h& shield tree if required for balance)
2. block more damage from heavy/special attacks OR remove any chance of getting a crit/status effect
3. no mag/stam stat replenishment at all (regen or otherwise),
4. no movement (meant to be hiding behind a shield)
5. zero cost (This would balance the resource management around block across all classes)

would need some changes around interaction with GCD too

The whole idea of when to block needs to change and brought back in to the vison of fast combat, game needs to change to make it more appealing to not block unless absolutely required.

Right now DK & Warden are the only end game viable tanks, and whilst the whole perma-block thing is not the only reason, it certainly contributes a lot and puts them into 'easy mode' Other classes are suffering <in this role> because they are not as effective and a ton more complex which is not just down to block cost, but this is a thing.

The reason why DK and warden are the only viable tanks in endgame is NOT their ressource-management but their group support...

I guess you glanced over my last sentence where I said it wasn't the only reason

Destruent

aeowulf wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Block Cost changes wont change anything. The whole no regen while blocking needs to be scrapped and make blocking for long periods of time scale harder and harder. Block casting shouldn't be a thing. People can weave heavy attacks and potions while being argonion and block forever..... regardless of the changes you make to blocking.

Exactly this, you are meant to be blocking not casting. If I could change it, I'd try something like this: (that's what PTS is for right?)

1. remove all block casting, only allow bash (optionally add in a skill you can cast whilst blocking in ice staff/1h& shield tree if required for balance)
2. block more damage from heavy/special attacks OR remove any chance of getting a crit/status effect
3. no mag/stam stat replenishment at all (regen or otherwise),
4. no movement (meant to be hiding behind a shield)
5. zero cost (This would balance the resource management around block across all classes)

would need some changes around interaction with GCD too

The whole idea of when to block needs to change and brought back in to the vison of fast combat, game needs to change to make it more appealing to not block unless absolutely required.

Right now DK & Warden are the only end game viable tanks, and whilst the whole perma-block thing is not the only reason, it certainly contributes a lot and puts them into 'easy mode' Other classes are suffering <in this role> because they are not as effective and a ton more complex which is not just down to block cost, but this is a thing.

The reason why DK and warden are the only viable tanks in endgame is NOT their ressource-management but their group support...

I guess you glanced over my last sentence where I said it wasn't the only reason

That's true, but trust me...calling such things in combination with ressource issues ist just wrong. If you have ressource-issues as a tank it's just a l2p-issue...not a class issue...

Integral1900

Voice of the forum
Quick... the tiny minority in pvp have a problem with a mechanic

ZOS
Right, let’s nerf these tank things good and proper



It’s dam near impossible to get players to run tanks as it is, they are utterly boring in pve everywhere except dungeons, we need to be buffing them not making their jobs harder. We need to give them options to do damage and tank, anything else will just make the dps dungeon queues bigger

aeowulf

Destruent wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Block Cost changes wont change anything. The whole no regen while blocking needs to be scrapped and make blocking for long periods of time scale harder and harder. Block casting shouldn't be a thing. People can weave heavy attacks and potions while being argonion and block forever..... regardless of the changes you make to blocking.

Exactly this, you are meant to be blocking not casting. If I could change it, I'd try something like this: (that's what PTS is for right?)

1. remove all block casting, only allow bash (optionally add in a skill you can cast whilst blocking in ice staff/1h& shield tree if required for balance)
2. block more damage from heavy/special attacks OR remove any chance of getting a crit/status effect
3. no mag/stam stat replenishment at all (regen or otherwise),
4. no movement (meant to be hiding behind a shield)
5. zero cost (This would balance the resource management around block across all classes)

would need some changes around interaction with GCD too

The whole idea of when to block needs to change and brought back in to the vison of fast combat, game needs to change to make it more appealing to not block unless absolutely required.

Right now DK & Warden are the only end game viable tanks, and whilst the whole perma-block thing is not the only reason, it certainly contributes a lot and puts them into 'easy mode' Other classes are suffering <in this role> because they are not as effective and a ton more complex which is not just down to block cost, but this is a thing.

The reason why DK and warden are the only viable tanks in endgame is NOT their ressource-management but their group support...

I guess you glanced over my last sentence where I said it wasn't the only reason

That's true, but trust me...calling such things in combination with ressource issues ist just wrong. If you have ressource-issues as a tank it's just a l2p-issue...not a class issue...

Everything hangs off resources. I believe templar (tanks) are in the worst spot right now regarding resources, I've not seen any for a long long time. NB & sorc I still see the odd one pop up in group finder, but DK is certainly ruling at every tier, with Warden not far behind.

NB used to be very viable on a selfish level but it was the huge nerf to resource management (siphoning) that killed them off. That change meant they no longer provided any meaningful group support through sap essence. It acted as a pseudo crowd control by healing the damage mobs did by not being under control. As that example shows, their group support hung directly off their extreme resource management.

They can still tank (Gilliam has a video about them) but I don't know how well that build would fair in a group because it does nothing to force mobs onto him (class limitation). Changing their shade to 'force the (two?) mobs furthest away to attack the player' might be a great change for NB. It would certainly provide unique CC.

L2P? maybe - personally i'm always open to improvement. For example, I know i'm not the fastest at vMA, 400k scores, around 2 hours. But either way I stopped tanking as my main role shortly after Morrowind - I find DK & warden somewhat boring, and stick with my NB main or a templar. I have a additional NB set up as a tank, that I use for theorycrafting things, and trying out whenever a change happens that <might> help them function in a group again.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

The only issue I'm seeing since I've started getting into PVP again is with 2H. It is by far the master weapon choice by far, having an easy 70% snare gap closer, followed by a hard CC high damage skill (especially with the animation cancel Reverse slices after the snare-->cc combo), which is difficult to outmaneuver due to the snare. Dual Wield have: an 50% snare with hidden blade... and no gap closer/hard CC.

2H is becoming/has become just as bad and common as Vampires running around in Cyrodiil because of how imbalanced and strong it is compared to anything else.

Maura_Neysa

Great ZOS, there are already only 2 viable classes for end game containt tanning because ot resource management are you trying to make it zero?

If people choose to run blockcost jewelry over damage or regen jewelry, they deserve to be tanky as hell. One or two average players shouldn't be able to kill a tank in CyrodiiI. It should take 6. That's where things currently are. One good person can kill my tank in under 5 minutes, or 6 average people given enough time.

Doctordarkspawn

aeowulf wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Block Cost changes wont change anything. The whole no regen while blocking needs to be scrapped and make blocking for long periods of time scale harder and harder. Block casting shouldn't be a thing. People can weave heavy attacks and potions while being argonion and block forever..... regardless of the changes you make to blocking.

Exactly this, you are meant to be blocking not casting. If I could change it, I'd try something like this: (that's what PTS is for right?)

1. remove all block casting, only allow bash (optionally add in a skill you can cast whilst blocking in ice staff/1h& shield tree if required for balance)
2. block more damage from heavy/special attacks OR remove any chance of getting a crit/status effect
3. no mag/stam stat replenishment at all (regen or otherwise),
4. no movement (meant to be hiding behind a shield)
5. zero cost (This would balance the resource management around block across all classes)

would need some changes around interaction with GCD too

The whole idea of when to block needs to change and brought back in to the vison of fast combat, game needs to change to make it more appealing to not block unless absolutely required.

Right now DK & Warden are the only end game viable tanks, and whilst the whole perma-block thing is not the only reason, it certainly contributes a lot and puts them into 'easy mode' Other classes are suffering <in this role> because they are not as effective and a ton more complex which is not just down to block cost, but this is a thing.

It'd break PVE tanking if you did that. Because half the tanks job is team support.

If you want to do what your suggesting (And I'd like to, and I'd love to make tanks that never block reminiscent of blood knights a thing) they'd have to alter the design of many fights, including nerfing the craglorn raids.

That's the thing. Block-tanking is necessary because the design -demands- it is. The fights are designed like that. They force us to use this setup,. then nerf this setup. Why? Why do you keep forcing us to use something that you keep nerfing? IT MAKES NO SENSE!

Waffennacht

No one else worries about being locked out of abilities?

I mean abilities like dark flare are already weak because of the cast time.

NBs, DKs, Wardens and Sorcs all have means to essentially by pass a GCD for burst instantly

Doctordarkspawn

Waffennacht wrote: »

No one else worries about being locked out of abilities?

I mean abilities like dark flare are already weak because of the cast time.

NBs, DKs, Wardens and Sorcs all have means to essentially by pass a GCD for burst instantly

I mean I would if I PVP'd.

ak_pvp

Waffennacht wrote: »

No one else worries about being locked out of abilities?

I mean abilities like dark flare are already weak because of the cast time.

NBs, DKs, Wardens and Sorcs all have means to essentially by pass a GCD for burst instantly

POTL?

Rainraven

aeowulf wrote: »

The whole idea of when to block needs to change and brought back in to the vison of fast combat, game needs to change to make it more appealing to not block unless absolutely required.

Completely disagree. You know that people with shields aren't the only ones who need to block, right? And that fits in pretty well with the whole concept of combat: there's a projectile coming at me, I either need to move or mitigate before it gets here. If you change that as much as you seem to want to, we will all be crutching hard on heals. Or gear throwing out defensive abilities for us, let's not go there. That's not any more fun or compelling than what we have right now.

Juhasow

@ZOS_Wrobel is there any plan to tune down Mages Fury effectivness in PvP ?

Waffennacht

ak_pvp wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

No one else worries about being locked out of abilities?

I mean abilities like dark flare are already weak because of the cast time.

NBs, DKs, Wardens and Sorcs all have means to essentially by pass a GCD for burst instantly

POTL?

PoTL is similar but not the same, it can't really be used as the burst mechanic but in addition too

Kabt

Expected upcoming balances:

General:
-Lethal Arrow: Must be unblockable and undodgable,

Nightblade:
-Incapacitating Strike: Reduce the ultimate cost of this ability to 30 from 70 and now it also grants major berserk to caster and allies nearby for 12 seconds,

Dragonknight:
-Take Flight: Increased the ultimate cost of this ability to 250 from 110 and stun CC effect of this ability removed,
-Igneous Shield: Increased the magicka cost of this ability to 9.050 from 4.050 and it's Major Mending bonus removed.
-Mountain's Blessing(Passive): Removed the minor brutality bonus of this ability.
-Helping Hands(Passive): Removed stamina return bonus of this ability now it applies nothing(yes nothing but empty passive).

Waffennacht

Kabt wrote: »

Expected upcoming balances:

General:
-Lethal Arrow: Must be unblockable and undodgable,

Nightblade:
-Incapacitating Strike: Reduce the ultimate cost of this ability to 30 from 70 and now it also grants major berserk to caster and allies nearby for 12 seconds,

Dragonknight:
-Take Flight: Increased the ultimate cost of this ability to 250 from 110 and stun CC effect of this ability removed,
-Igneous Shield: Increased the magicka cost of this ability to 9.050 from 4.050 and it's Major Mending bonus removed.
-Mountain's Blessing(Passive): Removed the minor brutality bonus of this ability.
-Helping Hands(Passive): Removed stamina return bonus of this ability now it applies nothing(yes nothing but empty passive).

Lol, r u an upset DK?

Malamar1229

Waffennacht wrote: »

No one else worries about being locked out of abilities?

I mean abilities like dark flare are already weak because of the cast time.

NBs, DKs, Wardens and Sorcs all have means to essentially by pass a GCD for burst instantly

Bye bye dark conversion

Jade1986

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

T4T2FR34K wrote: »

When are you going to do something about Miats?

You'll see something in the next update - it will likely be detailed in the API notes so addon authors can make necessary adjustments before the update is released.

That seriously just made me jump out of my seat and scream, YES!

Sav72

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

T4T2FR34K wrote: »

When are you going to do something about Miats?

You'll see something in the next update - it will likely be detailed in the API notes so addon authors can make necessary adjustments before the update is released.

Tears of JOY!!!!

Toss that cheat/hack

Jade1986

Sav72 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

T4T2FR34K wrote: »

When are you going to do something about Miats?

You'll see something in the next update - it will likely be detailed in the API notes so addon authors can make necessary adjustments before the update is released.

Tears of JOY!!!!

Toss that cheat/hack

Archers across tamriel are celebrating this day!

ak_pvp

Waffennacht wrote: »

Kabt wrote: »

Expected upcoming balances:

General:
-Lethal Arrow: Must be unblockable and undodgable,

Nightblade:
-Incapacitating Strike: Reduce the ultimate cost of this ability to 30 from 70 and now it also grants major berserk to caster and allies nearby for 12 seconds,

Dragonknight:
-Take Flight: Increased the ultimate cost of this ability to 250 from 110 and stun CC effect of this ability removed,
-Igneous Shield: Increased the magicka cost of this ability to 9.050 from 4.050 and it's Major Mending bonus removed.
-Mountain's Blessing(Passive): Removed the minor brutality bonus of this ability.
-Helping Hands(Passive): Removed stamina return bonus of this ability now it applies nothing(yes nothing but empty passive).

Lol, r u an upset DK?

There exist no other types.

Ranger209

Thinking about PvE vs. PvP it seems that the classes with good DoT rotations thrive in PvE while the classes and skills with good burst thrive in PvP. DK's parse well in PvE yet struggle PvP, Wardens are great in PvP but not so hot in PvE. Just some examples and I'm not sure that it holds through the entire spectrum of classes and skills. It's a very general statement.

However, would it make sense to buff burst abilities, some/all, not sure, and reduce some/all DoT's raw power to get them more on equal terms in PvE. Then use Battle Spirit to mitigate say 60% of the direct damage/burst abilities, and mitigate Dots only say 30%. By separating them out and dealing with them more independently could you have a better chance of balancing the skills for both PvP and PvE? Am I all wet here, waist deep? Is that something that just sounds good at first blush, or is there some validity to that thought process? Any thoughts?