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Remember when quests were hard?

  • Banana
    Banana
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    I remember Mannimarco giving me a bit of grief way back in the day. But i also had no idea what i was doing back in those days
  • Betsararie
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    Banana wrote: »
    I remember Mannimarco giving me a bit of grief way back in the day. But i also had no idea what i was doing back in those days

    when you're a god of the game , okay let me tell you it isn't an issue.
  • Jade1986
    Jade1986
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    I just wish it were skyrim adept difficulty level at least. I mean the big baddies in this game are incredibly anticlimactic because they are so easy. .....

    @Jade1986

    Olms +2 is anticlimactic? Rakkhat HM is anticlimactic? Granted, not all of us are in guilds that do that in their sleep with speed runs and no deaths for grins and giggles, Some of us found them to be somewhat of a challenge when we first cleared them. Well, I have not cleared Olms +2 yet.

    But that is where the PvE challenge is intended to be. Not overland trash mobs and not even Doshia. Heck, Doshia was not really a challenge the first week the game was out. It was just a matter of staying behind her to avoid her cleave.

    Tired overused response is tired and overused. We clearly are not talking about hm dungeons, or trials. Adept difficulty on skyrim was not hard, by ANY measure. But it at least made you think a little when faced with bosses. Why do you people insist on twisting our words when we say things? When I say adept skyrim difficulty, I -MEAN- adept skyrim difficulty, there is no hidden code that transaltes it into REALLY meaning skyrim legendary difficulty.

    My word....

    As if you don't have to think when faced with bosses as a new player with no CP. As an experienced player doing ESO Morrowind on a warden with no CP, I had to think and adapt when faced with minibosses and quest bosses. I had to balance rotation and sustain, and I actually knew enough to know how to do both, unlike most new players. I also see a lot of new players who struggle with some of those miniboss/quest boss mechanics, largely because they don't know how to do a proper rotation for their build because there is no way in-game to figure that out.

    With experience, even Skyrim's adept difficulty was pretty easy. it basically came down to "do I have enough potions/cheesewheels/horker stews to keep my health up?" and "Did I pick the right perks so I don't hit like wet noodles when the enemies leveled with me?" In a similar way, experience (and CP) makes ESO leveling really easy. Experience means that I know to grab festival food (that I bought on another character), to stack most of my points in either stamina or magicka, to match my weapons and race to my build, and to use a mix of AOE DOTs and single target skills.

    Or to put it another way, I remember when I went out of my way to avoid Harvesters. Those ladies were nasty! Now, I'm like whatever. What changed? I learned their mechanics, I learned how to use AoE effectively on them, I learned when to bash, etc. I gained experience and now Harvesters will never be as hard again. Its just a matter of proper rotation and sustain and I will kill them. A new player has to gain that experience, learning to use AoEs, sustain a rotation, to interrupt their mechanics or those harvesters are going to be murder just like they were the first time my character ran into them in Coldharbor.

    I dontk now about you, but the only reason i had issues when first playing the game was because of the lag from " eu " servers, when they were in texas, that and some mobs that were a higher level than you ( this was before cp, before OT , before the monster nerf to overland ). Hell, even now I can, and have, and oh its boring, played to lvl 10 on a test character in new zones without cp, without any set armor, with just dropped weapons, and made it a point not to weave and not to avoid power attacks, and aoes, and even then I could remember one single boss that gave me a problem, and that was that duo in that vvardenfell public dungeon that cc's you to high heaven.
  • NeKryXe
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    it would be easy to solve if there was an option to play the quests on veteran mode. i really enjoyed the story on clockwork city, but the quests were in fact ridiculously easy even if you were playing in on level 10 which made it boring.
  • Jade1986
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    NeKryXe wrote: »
    it would be easy to solve if there was an option to play the quests on veteran mode. i really enjoyed the story on clockwork city, but the quests were in fact ridiculously easy even if you were playing in on level 10 which made it boring.

    I would love this too. Obviously it wouldnt need to be dungeon veteran difficulty, but enough to make you actually think.
  • Magdalina
    Magdalina
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    Magdalina wrote: »
    Magdalina wrote: »
    Magdalina wrote: »
    Apherius wrote: »
    If you want some difficulty in questing simply remove all your champ points, take off armor except weapon, no food, pots etc. and simply make yourself vulnerable.

    You probably not understand the difference between those you want to increase artificially the difficulty( = create their own challenge) and those who want the game to give them a challenge

    what next ? " if you want some difficulty play with equilibrium and nord " ?

    I'm one of those who want the game to give them a challenge without having to play naked or without cp, why ? Because i want this try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll i have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ).
    And not play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the donjon if i was wearing my equipement ... even if i complete it naked I won't get the same feeling as everysingle person get once they did Vma for the first time ... I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

    Pretty hard to explain.

    You'll never recapture that feeling of completing VMA for the first time. You'll never recapture the feeling of those first fights that kicked your butt.

    Some of that is nerfs. Some of that is power creep. Most of it is simple experience with the game.

    There's no way for ZOS to push you, an experienced player, to your limits without also making overland content too hard for new players who don't have that experience. And if you think the game is too easy for new inexperienced players, I'd like to direct you to the "Players helping Players" forums and the numerous complaints about noobs not knowing what to do in dungeons.

    Actually, far as inexperienced players go, the game being too easy is in fact part of the issue. It doesn't teach them ANYTHING. At launch days, if you actually made it to vet 5-10, it was pretty much a guarantee you knew how to block/shield/dodge/bash at the very least because the only viable way of leveling was questing and vet zones mobs taught you that really well. If you made it through Craglorn lateron, it was a guarantee you got down the idea of some kind of mob priorities - archer dies first, healer next, everyone else last etc and practiced your bashing/dodging skills some more, as well as situational awareness(because it generally only takes so many <your health>*10 Taking Aim's to start paying attention to where the archer is). You were also probably familiar with the concept of food, gear sets and at least some semblance of rotation(possibly an ineffective one, but not a heavy attack-light attack-heavy attack kind at least).

    Now they hit cp 10/160/300 roflstomping everything in their way(except for world bosses which they zerg down instead), get into a vet dungeon and have that "wait wut" moment all of a sudden...

    In my experience leveling a warden with no CP, that's not the case. There were plenty of fights levels 10-30 that forced me to learn my class, to develop priorities, and to respect the mechanics.

    I have in fact recently leveled a brand new account(NA->EU) from level 1 to ~300 cp and I while I did dearly miss my cp for melting world bosses and stuff...I couldn't even practice my rotation on trash/elites because they melted after 2 weaves :(

    Perhaps the difference is I was leveling another magsorc(albeit not a pet one) which I do know really well, instead of a class new for me. But seriously, all that experience did was confirm my thoughts on open world difficulty, I basically heavy attacked everything in my way to death with no other skills required. Okay maybe some form of a heal occasionally. I was actually hoping for some challenge there...I didn't find one :/ World bosses were kind of hard to solo but someone'd usually show up, that's about it.

    I would have the same experience on a stamina sorcerer, a class I know really well and know exactly how to pull decent DPS on. Even with no CP, I'm pretty confident I'd have no problems blitzing quest content on a stam sorc.

    But that's my experience as a stam sorc player talking, not anything that has to do with the relative difficulty of the game for new players...

    There is the fact of pug quality plummeting over time though. I mean I'm not gonna say pugs were somehow op and perfect back then, of course not(plus we didn't have group finder so any group required some kind of communication), but it was rare to run into high level people unfamiliar with the idea of food/refusing to eat any, or people just trying to light/heavy attack their way to victory, or people religiously refusing to bash/block/dodge/shield...now I see it ALL the time. And worse yet now most of them refuse to listen :(

    I'd attribute that more to the push to get to the gear cap before you do any end-game content. If all a player wants to do is push as fast as they can to CP 160 in order to get max-level gear to do content, that's not exactly encouraging good gameplay. (The rest of it has to do with grinding spots opened up by One Tamriel that enable people to level without actually playing the game in a substantial way, but that's not something that's going to change.) If players get to a high level without ever stepping foot into a group dungeon, I'm not surprised that the quality stinks. I'm going to have to cop to that one myself, because despite hitting Vet 7 before One Tamriel, I'd never done a group dungeon. I was fortunate enough to learn group dungeons as a tank for understanding friends before I inflicted myself on the general population, but not everyone is so fortunate. I also learned about the glories of using proper food late too, after the stamblade I was questing with tried using it and started raving over how much easier it made everything. Again, things I learned late in my gameplay experience before One Tamriel because there was no good way to learn in game.

    Furthermore, keep in mind that the Dungeon Finder was only recently changed to appropriately reflect dungeon difficulty. Normal Dungeons are a great place for new players to learn what end-game content really takes, but until recently new players with DLC ran the risk of winding up in DLC dungeons half of the time. Not exactly conductive to people learning how to play. That's actually a rather good example of "difficult" content for newer players. Everyone hated it. New players didn't have the abilities to do a proper rotation, the mechanics were pretty punishing, and experienced players disliked taking the time to explain and compensate for under-leveled players in harder dungeons. I'm extremely grateful that ZOS changed it and I really enjoyed leveling my warden healer in random dungeons. Otherwise, I'd have been one of those CP 690 healers who's never actually healed a dungeon because I didn't want to be a drag on a group in WGT or ICP.

    Its my hope that with players now being able to PUG in dungeons that fit their levels, that the quality of PUGs will improve. It'll be slow, of course.

    It sounds like you weren't here at launch times though. The game was already faceroll easy pre-One Tam as well, since removal of original vet zones challenge at least. One Tam was a great QoL thing but it did nothing to make the game on the whole harder or easier(except they did get WB right in terms of difficulty, will give them that). The learning curve had been missing before it and is still missing now.

    I started running vet dungeons at vet 10(the cap at the time), having run only one before that. I was obviously not that great at first but I was aware of things such as shields, blocks, interrupts and food because I literally couldn't get past vet zones without those. I also had pretty good situational awareness because the only way to get through vet Malabal Tor was to either get that or ragequit forever :D Damn atronachs literally one shot you if you didn't avoid their attacks. The people I was running with at the time - some of them were very experienced with dungeons and therefore much better than me, others were also new to dungeons - but we all had some basics down because vet zones. ...honestly I hated the vet zones back then. Never thought I'd miss them. But, here I go...

    Also I don't have much of an issue with cp <160 being...inexperienced. They are new and they have time to learn. But cp 300? Cp 500? At what point are they supposed to stop being new and inexperienced exactly? At what point are they supposed to at least learn to bash, not even talking rotations?
  • GrigorijMalahevich
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    Level scalling stopped this game from being hard. Only part where you can actually feel like you achivied something is vMA for solo content and for experienced players it is already boring...

    Give us new vMA!!!
    PC/EU 800 CP.
    PvP MagSorc.
    Pedro Gonzales - Mag Sorc EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/CB6j6
    Valera Progib - Stam Sorc DC vMA Flawless Conqueror clear https://i.imgur.com/eYgpXG2.png
    Valera Pozhar - Mag DK EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/jrsuK
    Valera Podlechi - Mag Templar AD vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/N0BYq
  • Fingolfinn01
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    They said they understand the problem. Though I hven't heard them say they are fixing it
    PC-NA
  • Apherius
    Apherius
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    Level scalling stopped this game from being hard. Only part where you can actually feel like you achivied something is vMA for solo content and for experienced players it is already boring...

    Give us new vMA!!!

    Vma II

    We want the rest of the story, they just need to add a big dark anchor in this arena and make the sbire of molag bal invest everysingle stage, then at the last stage you need to fight an other boss in a different arena who is on the other side of the Dark anchor, they could do it, they just need to be creative, I would pay for that.
    Edited by Apherius on December 16, 2017 12:44PM
  • Zaldan
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    Not in this game, no
    Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
    Niidro tiid wah fusvok dirkah.

    aka.@Cuthceol
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Magdalina wrote: »
    Magdalina wrote: »
    Magdalina wrote: »
    Magdalina wrote: »
    Apherius wrote: »
    If you want some difficulty in questing simply remove all your champ points, take off armor except weapon, no food, pots etc. and simply make yourself vulnerable.

    You probably not understand the difference between those you want to increase artificially the difficulty( = create their own challenge) and those who want the game to give them a challenge

    what next ? " if you want some difficulty play with equilibrium and nord " ?

    I'm one of those who want the game to give them a challenge without having to play naked or without cp, why ? Because i want this try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll i have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ).
    And not play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the donjon if i was wearing my equipement ... even if i complete it naked I won't get the same feeling as everysingle person get once they did Vma for the first time ... I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

    Pretty hard to explain.

    You'll never recapture that feeling of completing VMA for the first time. You'll never recapture the feeling of those first fights that kicked your butt.

    Some of that is nerfs. Some of that is power creep. Most of it is simple experience with the game.

    There's no way for ZOS to push you, an experienced player, to your limits without also making overland content too hard for new players who don't have that experience. And if you think the game is too easy for new inexperienced players, I'd like to direct you to the "Players helping Players" forums and the numerous complaints about noobs not knowing what to do in dungeons.

    Actually, far as inexperienced players go, the game being too easy is in fact part of the issue. It doesn't teach them ANYTHING. At launch days, if you actually made it to vet 5-10, it was pretty much a guarantee you knew how to block/shield/dodge/bash at the very least because the only viable way of leveling was questing and vet zones mobs taught you that really well. If you made it through Craglorn lateron, it was a guarantee you got down the idea of some kind of mob priorities - archer dies first, healer next, everyone else last etc and practiced your bashing/dodging skills some more, as well as situational awareness(because it generally only takes so many <your health>*10 Taking Aim's to start paying attention to where the archer is). You were also probably familiar with the concept of food, gear sets and at least some semblance of rotation(possibly an ineffective one, but not a heavy attack-light attack-heavy attack kind at least).

    Now they hit cp 10/160/300 roflstomping everything in their way(except for world bosses which they zerg down instead), get into a vet dungeon and have that "wait wut" moment all of a sudden...

    In my experience leveling a warden with no CP, that's not the case. There were plenty of fights levels 10-30 that forced me to learn my class, to develop priorities, and to respect the mechanics.

    I have in fact recently leveled a brand new account(NA->EU) from level 1 to ~300 cp and I while I did dearly miss my cp for melting world bosses and stuff...I couldn't even practice my rotation on trash/elites because they melted after 2 weaves :(

    Perhaps the difference is I was leveling another magsorc(albeit not a pet one) which I do know really well, instead of a class new for me. But seriously, all that experience did was confirm my thoughts on open world difficulty, I basically heavy attacked everything in my way to death with no other skills required. Okay maybe some form of a heal occasionally. I was actually hoping for some challenge there...I didn't find one :/ World bosses were kind of hard to solo but someone'd usually show up, that's about it.

    I would have the same experience on a stamina sorcerer, a class I know really well and know exactly how to pull decent DPS on. Even with no CP, I'm pretty confident I'd have no problems blitzing quest content on a stam sorc.

    But that's my experience as a stam sorc player talking, not anything that has to do with the relative difficulty of the game for new players...

    There is the fact of pug quality plummeting over time though. I mean I'm not gonna say pugs were somehow op and perfect back then, of course not(plus we didn't have group finder so any group required some kind of communication), but it was rare to run into high level people unfamiliar with the idea of food/refusing to eat any, or people just trying to light/heavy attack their way to victory, or people religiously refusing to bash/block/dodge/shield...now I see it ALL the time. And worse yet now most of them refuse to listen :(

    I'd attribute that more to the push to get to the gear cap before you do any end-game content. If all a player wants to do is push as fast as they can to CP 160 in order to get max-level gear to do content, that's not exactly encouraging good gameplay. (The rest of it has to do with grinding spots opened up by One Tamriel that enable people to level without actually playing the game in a substantial way, but that's not something that's going to change.) If players get to a high level without ever stepping foot into a group dungeon, I'm not surprised that the quality stinks. I'm going to have to cop to that one myself, because despite hitting Vet 7 before One Tamriel, I'd never done a group dungeon. I was fortunate enough to learn group dungeons as a tank for understanding friends before I inflicted myself on the general population, but not everyone is so fortunate. I also learned about the glories of using proper food late too, after the stamblade I was questing with tried using it and started raving over how much easier it made everything. Again, things I learned late in my gameplay experience before One Tamriel because there was no good way to learn in game.

    Furthermore, keep in mind that the Dungeon Finder was only recently changed to appropriately reflect dungeon difficulty. Normal Dungeons are a great place for new players to learn what end-game content really takes, but until recently new players with DLC ran the risk of winding up in DLC dungeons half of the time. Not exactly conductive to people learning how to play. That's actually a rather good example of "difficult" content for newer players. Everyone hated it. New players didn't have the abilities to do a proper rotation, the mechanics were pretty punishing, and experienced players disliked taking the time to explain and compensate for under-leveled players in harder dungeons. I'm extremely grateful that ZOS changed it and I really enjoyed leveling my warden healer in random dungeons. Otherwise, I'd have been one of those CP 690 healers who's never actually healed a dungeon because I didn't want to be a drag on a group in WGT or ICP.

    Its my hope that with players now being able to PUG in dungeons that fit their levels, that the quality of PUGs will improve. It'll be slow, of course.

    It sounds like you weren't here at launch times though. The game was already faceroll easy pre-One Tam as well, since removal of original vet zones challenge at least. One Tam was a great QoL thing but it did nothing to make the game on the whole harder or easier(except they did get WB right in terms of difficulty, will give them that). The learning curve had been missing before it and is still missing now.

    I started running vet dungeons at vet 10(the cap at the time), having run only one before that. I was obviously not that great at first but I was aware of things such as shields, blocks, interrupts and food because I literally couldn't get past vet zones without those. I also had pretty good situational awareness because the only way to get through vet Malabal Tor was to either get that or ragequit forever :D Damn atronachs literally one shot you if you didn't avoid their attacks. The people I was running with at the time - some of them were very experienced with dungeons and therefore much better than me, others were also new to dungeons - but we all had some basics down because vet zones. ...honestly I hated the vet zones back then. Never thought I'd miss them. But, here I go...

    Also I don't have much of an issue with cp <160 being...inexperienced. They are new and they have time to learn. But cp 300? Cp 500? At what point are they supposed to stop being new and inexperienced exactly? At what point are they supposed to at least learn to bash, not even talking rotations?

    I started after launch when the game became buy to play, but I was here well before One Tamriel. I'd made it to Vet 7 or 8 when One Tamriel dropped.

    So I do remember the sense of progression the game had before One Tamriel. I remember hitting difficult fights, leveling up a bit and coming back to stomp them (Blaze and Ragebinder, I hated those two). I also remember the railroad - never being able to kill enemies too much over my level because of the artificial miss chance and feeling like a god as I one-shot starter island NPCs for no exp. I've also leveled a no CP warden after One Tamriel, and while there's not the same sense of progression, I still got the same sense of having to learn and pay attention to the fights.

    I do expect players to learn the content especially as they continue doing group dungeons. However, the game does not really prepare players for group content without actually doing dungeons. (That's not a "it's to easy" complaint, that's a "the game gives no opportunity outside of world bosses who usually have large groups of players".) Consider the vast gulf between a normal dungeon boss and a questing boss. There's practically no chance for a DPS player to develop and sustain the rotation that will kill a 1 million health boss with decent DPS before they go into a group dungeon for the first time. Before CWC, new players with DLC ran the risk of ending up in very hard dungeons to boot. I pointed out that had ZOS not changed the dungeon difficulty, I'd be taking a CP 690 healer into group dungeons without ever having healed on a warden before because I didn't want to get her into a dungeon I wasn't sure she could heal.

    I'm not surprised that there are high CP characters rolling into dungeons with seemingly no clue.
    A. One Tamriel removed the railroad where you could outlevel content, making grinding viable again. Grinding is a thing now and most grind spots don't actually require you to learn anything about the game or your class. (ZOS could change this to make grinding spots actually require people to learn, but then I suspect everyone would migrate to other spots.)
    B. Groups vocally prefer people with high CP over even skilled people with lower CP, creating an obvious incentive to get high CP even if you are unskilled. When end-game content de facto requires high CP, people are going to grind for high CP.
    C. Maybe players are nervous about doing group content and so may have leveled up on questing and are just starting group dungeons. (This was me. I took a very long time to do group dungeons and started running them exclusively with friends until I felt comfortable running them with other people. I didn't know about food or a proper rotation, but my friends and I learned about those as we did group content together.)
    D. Before CWC, new players with DLC risked ending up in harder DLC dungeons where they struggled with mechanics and lack of abilities while more experienced players made it clear they didn't enjoy having new/low-level players in those dungeons. That prevented players from getting the skills they need to do group dungeons as they leveled, unlike the new system which progressively unlocks content new players can handle.
    E. ZOS does not want to tell players what to do. So far, ZOS has resisted explaining basic parts of the meta, from "hey, your character will be more effective if you go mostly magicka or stamina with matching armor and weapons" to "Hey, end-game content pretty much requires food/drink" to "hey, you should be using aoe dots along with your single target abilities in a rotation." All of that is stuff that a player won't pick up from the game itself. They'd have to look it up online or in the forums (I see a lot of players coming to the forums absolutely confused by this) or, more likely, they roll into a dungeon with no clue and a group member has to explain to them some of the basic meta in order to work on their build.

    Its not that the game isn't difficult enough - overland questing forces players to learn their build and learn mob mechanics. Its that the game doesn't prepare players for the necessities of group content - there's very little opportunity to develop a rotation or even realize they need a disciplined rotation and no explanation of how to build an effective character for group content. There's a steep learning curve between overland questing and group content that won't be solved by making overland questing harder. A better solution is for there to be more intermediate content (which public dungeons and world bosses were supposed to do but really don't) AND for basic gameplay meta to start being included in the game for players to learn. I realized that ZOS wants to be able to change stuff and not tell players how to play, but when there's a lot of basic information needed to be effective in group content that isn't found anywhere in the game itself, that's a substantial hurdle to players learning, doing, and getting good at group content without relying on other players to help them learn it.
    Edited by VaranisArano on December 16, 2017 2:17PM
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    We did become more skilled as community, but our world is too weak. I would like to see quests people talk about or party together because it's too hard otherwise. Obviously with corresponding reward.

    Let me regret dodging that way, not blocking or following the npc, these are my thoughts. As of right now, I only have the memories, because right now quests are more of a chore then an actual adventure.
  • krachall
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    I do. It was 1999 when Everquest was released. Games have progressively easier (and more fun) every since.

    One reason this game has gotten too easy is that the developers did the unthinkable and allowed the highest damage class to also have the best defense while simultaneously wearing armor that perfectly compliments their build. MMO characters are supposed to be about give and take and sacrificing one strength for another. Instead of give and take, balance, and sacrifice, just roll a sorc and have the best of all worlds.
    Edited by krachall on December 16, 2017 7:43PM
  • exeeter702
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    Start a new character, don't give them any CP, only equip them with the gear they pick up, and the quests are still quite hard.

    If you go straight out of the Morrowind tutorial and do Vvardefell like that some of the delve bosses are really tough solo fights.

    I recently did this exclusively to confirm my assumption. I played through morrowinfmd and cwc. It was a snoozefest.

    Overland questing is plain and simply tuned for the most casual playerbase of the game. Thats really all there is too it. And imo that is very unfortunate.
  • exeeter702
    exeeter702
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    Apherius wrote: »
    If you want some difficulty in questing simply remove all your champ points, take off armor except weapon, no food, pots etc. and simply make yourself vulnerable.

    You probably not understand the difference between those you want to increase artificially the difficulty( = create their own challenge) and those who want the game to give them a challenge

    what next ? " if you want some difficulty play with equilibrium and nord " ?

    I'm one of those who want the game to give them a challenge without having to play naked or without cp, why ? Because i want this try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll i have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ).
    And not play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the donjon if i was wearing my equipement ... even if i complete it naked I won't get the same feeling as everysingle person get once they did Vma for the first time ... I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

    Pretty hard to explain.

    You'll never recapture that feeling of completing VMA for the first time. You'll never recapture the feeling of those first fights that kicked your butt.

    Some of that is nerfs. Some of that is power creep. Most of it is simple experience with the game.

    There's no way for ZOS to push you, an experienced player, to your limits without also making overland content too hard for new players who don't have that experience. And if you think the game is too easy for new inexperienced players, I'd like to direct you to the "Players helping Players" forums and the numerous complaints about noobs not knowing what to do in dungeons.

    Those "noobs" are in that position in the first place because zos does a *** ass job educating new players and would rather coddle them and give them a safe place where they can play within their comfort zone, never learning anything beyond the bear minimum because they are never encouraged to.
    Edited by exeeter702 on December 16, 2017 9:25PM
  • exeeter702
    exeeter702
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    Look you dont get to compartmentalize your game in ways such as, if you want to learn how to perform in dungeons, then you encourage doing dugneons in the leveling process. That is only part of the equation. These aspects are not exclusive to one another.

    The most well made games single player or mmo, are ones imo that believe in the direction of their design in terms of challenge and dont damagebthe integrity of the game by trying to cater to the largest audience as possible. They implement tools and features to teach players instead of holding their hand. They recognize the age demographic of players playing said game and respect their intelligence. They say "here is everything you need to overcome the challanges we present, now get out of your comfort zone and rise to the occasion and you will gain a satisfaction that is all too rare in video games now days". And in ESO's case, this will reinforce players to want to apply the exoerience they have EARNED playing through player levels in the overland onto group content.

    This type of environment is not created in eso and instead we have a vapid overland questing experience with zero consequence and danger taking place accross multiple well made and robust zones. And dungeon geoupd filled with max level cp players without the faintest idea of what they should and should not be doing. And worst of all, the current game we have tells them that its completely alright to be complacent in mediocrity as long as you are "having fun".

    I dont know if its a generational thing or just a personality thing, but there is a place for games as "experiences" to exist. Games where there is no consequence or risk, with clear win and lose conditions. I simply do not believe those elements belong in MMOS.
    Edited by exeeter702 on December 16, 2017 10:03PM
  • Haquor
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    I mean don't get me wrong vanilla ESO was an absolute mess but I do miss questing being challenging. Like there were fights I legit got caught on my first time leveling. I miss it, the lack of anything resembling a challenge is just what ruins questing for me on this game, I can't take any of it seriously when nothing is dangerous.

    I remember back in early 2014 doing vet zones for the first time. You would see a group of like 3 random mobs and have to pause and plan how you were going to take them down.

    Things have changed.
    Edited by Haquor on December 16, 2017 10:45PM
  • idk
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    I just wish it were skyrim adept difficulty level at least. I mean the big baddies in this game are incredibly anticlimactic because they are so easy. .....

    @Jade1986

    Olms +2 is anticlimactic? Rakkhat HM is anticlimactic? Granted, not all of us are in guilds that do that in their sleep with speed runs and no deaths for grins and giggles, Some of us found them to be somewhat of a challenge when we first cleared them. Well, I have not cleared Olms +2 yet.

    But that is where the PvE challenge is intended to be. Not overland trash mobs and not even Doshia. Heck, Doshia was not really a challenge the first week the game was out. It was just a matter of staying behind her to avoid her cleave.

    Tired overused response is tired and overused. We clearly are not talking about hm dungeons, or trials. Adept difficulty on skyrim was not hard, by ANY measure. But it at least made you think a little when faced with bosses. Why do you people insist on twisting our words when we say things? When I say adept skyrim difficulty, I -MEAN- adept skyrim difficulty, there is no hidden code that transaltes it into REALLY meaning skyrim legendary difficulty.

    My word....

    Yea, I agree. The premise of this thread is tired and slightly overused so I guess responses will follow suit.

    It is kind of silly to suggest replies that have already been provided to a thread topic never be used before when the same lame thread pops up from time to time. This is the same topic that has come up from time to time merely disguised with the difficulty level from a different game.

    Besides, Adept difficulty for you is more like Master difficulty for a new player not wearing all that fancy set bonus and with zero CP.

    It is just not going to happen in a large scale MMORPG. As stated before, different content is designed for different difficulty levels. Do not like my previous reply, to bad because that is the way it will remain.
  • Jade1986
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    idk wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    I just wish it were skyrim adept difficulty level at least. I mean the big baddies in this game are incredibly anticlimactic because they are so easy. .....

    @Jade1986

    Olms +2 is anticlimactic? Rakkhat HM is anticlimactic? Granted, not all of us are in guilds that do that in their sleep with speed runs and no deaths for grins and giggles, Some of us found them to be somewhat of a challenge when we first cleared them. Well, I have not cleared Olms +2 yet.

    But that is where the PvE challenge is intended to be. Not overland trash mobs and not even Doshia. Heck, Doshia was not really a challenge the first week the game was out. It was just a matter of staying behind her to avoid her cleave.

    Tired overused response is tired and overused. We clearly are not talking about hm dungeons, or trials. Adept difficulty on skyrim was not hard, by ANY measure. But it at least made you think a little when faced with bosses. Why do you people insist on twisting our words when we say things? When I say adept skyrim difficulty, I -MEAN- adept skyrim difficulty, there is no hidden code that transaltes it into REALLY meaning skyrim legendary difficulty.

    My word....

    Yea, I agree. The premise of this thread is tired and slightly overused so I guess responses will follow suit.

    It is kind of silly to suggest replies that have already been provided to a thread topic never be used before when the same lame thread pops up from time to time. This is the same topic that has come up from time to time merely disguised with the difficulty level from a different game.

    Besides, Adept difficulty for you is more like Master difficulty for a new player not wearing all that fancy set bonus and with zero CP.

    It is just not going to happen in a large scale MMORPG. As stated before, different content is designed for different difficulty levels. Do not like my previous reply, to bad because that is the way it will remain.

    Did you just say adept on skyrim was....

    I cant even.....
  • idk
    idk
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    I just wish it were skyrim adept difficulty level at least. I mean the big baddies in this game are incredibly anticlimactic because they are so easy. .....

    @Jade1986

    Olms +2 is anticlimactic? Rakkhat HM is anticlimactic? Granted, not all of us are in guilds that do that in their sleep with speed runs and no deaths for grins and giggles, Some of us found them to be somewhat of a challenge when we first cleared them. Well, I have not cleared Olms +2 yet.

    But that is where the PvE challenge is intended to be. Not overland trash mobs and not even Doshia. Heck, Doshia was not really a challenge the first week the game was out. It was just a matter of staying behind her to avoid her cleave.

    Tired overused response is tired and overused. We clearly are not talking about hm dungeons, or trials. Adept difficulty on skyrim was not hard, by ANY measure. But it at least made you think a little when faced with bosses. Why do you people insist on twisting our words when we say things? When I say adept skyrim difficulty, I -MEAN- adept skyrim difficulty, there is no hidden code that transaltes it into REALLY meaning skyrim legendary difficulty.

    My word....

    Yea, I agree. The premise of this thread is tired and slightly overused so I guess responses will follow suit.

    It is kind of silly to suggest replies that have already been provided to a thread topic never be used before when the same lame thread pops up from time to time. This is the same topic that has come up from time to time merely disguised with the difficulty level from a different game.

    Besides, Adept difficulty for you is more like Master difficulty for a new player not wearing all that fancy set bonus and with zero CP.

    It is just not going to happen in a large scale MMORPG. As stated before, different content is designed for different difficulty levels. Do not like my previous reply, to bad because that is the way it will remain.

    Did you just say adept on skyrim was....

    I cant even.....

    Might want to read what I said more carefully. Seems as though you missed something my statement is 100% correct.

    I will try to spell it out a little more carefully for you.

    What you would find to be equivalent to Skyrim Adept Difficulty with your max CP and your fancy BiS set bonus may be great for you.

    However, the new player wearing droped gear, likely no set bonus, certainly unlikely any 5PC, and having zero CP and lacks the 3 1/2 years experience in the game that you do will find that difficulty much higher than Adept.

    That a fact jack whether you like it or not and regardless of the attempt to dismiss it with that slight.

    I will also repeat, it isn't going to happen in a large scale MMORPG. Different content is designed for different difficulty levels. Do not like my previous reply, to bad because that is the way it will remain That is also a fact.
    Edited by idk on December 16, 2017 11:53PM
  • zyk
    zyk
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    I don't consider ESO to be a game anymore. It's a social platform with game-like functions.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    zyk wrote: »
    I don't consider ESO to be a game anymore. It's a social platform with game-like functions.

    Its Skyrim with friends. And in the same way that we eventually exhausted the difficulty and adventure in Skyrim, eventually we'll exhaust the difficulty and adventure in ESO. I can't even play Skyrim anymore because I know every story beat, every line of dialogue, the placement of every single NPC in the game's dungeons. I've simply experienced so much of Skyrim that there's no difficulty there anymore except to grind through the story.

    So, that sounds similar enough to the experiences of long-time players of ESO. I'm not quite at that point with ESO, but I can feel that time approaching.
  • lagrue
    lagrue
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    I mean don't get me wrong vanilla ESO was an absolute mess but I do miss questing being challenging. Like there were fights I legit got caught on my first time leveling. I miss it, the lack of anything resembling a challenge is just what ruins questing for me on this game, I can't take any of it seriously when nothing is dangerous.

    No, I don't remember it lol, the game's always been cake.
    PSN ID (NA only): Zuzu_With_a_Z
    *GRAND MASTER CRAFTER*

    "You must defeat me every time. I need defeat you only once"
  • idk
    idk
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    zyk wrote: »
    I don't consider ESO to be a game anymore. It's a social platform with game-like functions.

    Its Skyrim with friends. And in the same way that we eventually exhausted the difficulty and adventure in Skyrim, eventually we'll exhaust the difficulty and adventure in ESO. I can't even play Skyrim anymore because I know every story beat, every line of dialogue, the placement of every single NPC in the game's dungeons. I've simply experienced so much of Skyrim that there's no difficulty there anymore except to grind through the story.

    So, that sounds similar enough to the experiences of long-time players of ESO. I'm not quite at that point with ESO, but I can feel that time approaching.

    Exactly, though ESO does offer new content a couple times a year. Those into PvP always have something and those into Raiding get into the new challenge offered, what seems to now be once a year or so.

    Even then it is often about who you play with rather than the game itself.
  • lagrue
    lagrue
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    Apherius wrote: »
    Level scalling stopped this game from being hard. Only part where you can actually feel like you achivied something is vMA for solo content and for experienced players it is already boring...

    Give us new vMA!!!

    Vma II

    We want the rest of the story, they just need to add a big dark anchor in this arena and make the sbire of molag bal invest everysingle stage, then at the last stage you need to fight an other boss in a different arena who is on the other side of the Dark anchor, they could do it, they just need to be creative, I would pay for that.

    Although the game world doesn't show it - that is "impossible." Orsinium DLC and VMA take place AFTER the plane meld has failed and Molag Bal forced out of Nirn. That's why there's no anchors in any of the DLCs, they all take place post-plane meld.

    They could however do one with Oblivion gates.
    PSN ID (NA only): Zuzu_With_a_Z
    *GRAND MASTER CRAFTER*

    "You must defeat me every time. I need defeat you only once"
  • zyk
    zyk
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    zyk wrote: »
    I don't consider ESO to be a game anymore. It's a social platform with game-like functions.

    Its Skyrim with friends. And in the same way that we eventually exhausted the difficulty and adventure in Skyrim, eventually we'll exhaust the difficulty and adventure in ESO. I can't even play Skyrim anymore because I know every story beat, every line of dialogue, the placement of every single NPC in the game's dungeons. I've simply experienced so much of Skyrim that there's no difficulty there anymore except to grind through the story.

    So, that sounds similar enough to the experiences of long-time players of ESO. I'm not quite at that point with ESO, but I can feel that time approaching.

    It's more like a social platform for fans of Skyrim. It's not Skyrim with friends because the gameplay is completely different. Even on easy, Skyrim had incredible replayability because of its AI, physics and through community creations. ESO is *nothing* like that.

    ESO isn't easy for experienced players because of their experience. Sure, that's a small factor, but the game is objectively easier than it was at launch or even during its first couple of years. Far more so.

    ESO was an ambitious title that didn't make it to the starting line. It launched late, unfinished, and fell on its face. The mainstream MMO audience rejected it wholesale. This is the contingency plan -- which is less of a game and more of a light social environment in which learning the rules is optional.

    Edited by zyk on December 17, 2017 1:20AM
  • Bobby_V_Rockit
    Bobby_V_Rockit
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    zyk wrote: »
    zyk wrote: »
    I don't consider ESO to be a game anymore. It's a social platform with game-like functions.

    Its Skyrim with friends. And in the same way that we eventually exhausted the difficulty and adventure in Skyrim, eventually we'll exhaust the difficulty and adventure in ESO. I can't even play Skyrim anymore because I know every story beat, every line of dialogue, the placement of every single NPC in the game's dungeons. I've simply experienced so much of Skyrim that there's no difficulty there anymore except to grind through the story.

    So, that sounds similar enough to the experiences of long-time players of ESO. I'm not quite at that point with ESO, but I can feel that time approaching.

    It's more like a social platform for fans of Skyrim. It's not Skyrim with friends because the gameplay is completely different. Even on easy, Skyrim had incredible replayability because of its AI, physics and through community creations. ESO is *nothing* like that.

    ESO isn't easy for experienced players because of their experience. Sure, that's a small factor, but the game is objectively easier than it was at launch or even during its first couple of years. Far more so.

    ESO was an ambitious title that didn't make it to the starting line. It launched late, unfinished, and fell on its face. The mainstream MMO audience rejected it wholesale. This is the contingency plan -- which is less of a game and more of a light social environment in which learning the rules is optional. It is, literally, a game you can play with your grandmother. No offense to the grannies out there.

    I dont know about that, I member getting gear that I couldnt use because it was a few levels higher, honestly, battle scaling kind of ruined any sense of challenge. I think some of the 1T changes were good, but I really enjoyed the fear and challenge of going to areas above your level and looking forward to using the gear you’d won. Now its just “kill thing, get loot, deconstruct/vendor”
  • leeux
    leeux
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    zyk wrote: »
    I don't consider ESO to be a game anymore. It's a social platform with game-like functions.

    I have to wholeheartedly agree with @zyk's comment, and it's something that I have been feeling w.r.t. the 'game' for a long time too.

    As some communities dissolve (in my case, several of the guilds I used to play with are death, for example) there are less reasons for players to have the "social" excuse to come back to the game, and there's less activity overall... at least, w.r.t. what I used to see when playing seriously before Morrowind came out.




    PC/NA - Proud old member of the Antique Ordinatus Populus

    My chars
    Liana Amnell (AD mSorc L50+, ex EP) =x= Lehnnan Klennett (AD mTemplar L50+ Healer/Support ) =x= Ethim Amnell (AD mDK L50+, ex DC)
    Leinwyn Valaene (AD mSorc L50+) =x= Levus Artorias (AD mDK-for-now L50+) =x= Madril Ulessen (AD mNB L50+) =x= Lyra Amnis (AD not-Stamplar-yet L50+)
    I only PvP on AD chars

    ~~ «And blossoms anew beneath tomorrow's sun >>»
    ~~ «I am forever swimming around, amidst this ocean world we call home... >>»
    ~~ "Let strength be granted so the world might be mended... so the world might be mended."
    ~~ "Slash the silver chain that binds thee to life"
    ~~ Our cries will shrill, the air will moan and crash into the dawn. >>
    ~~ The sands of time were eroded by the river of constant change >>
  • morrowjen
    morrowjen
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    A lot of the difficulty was just getting used to the game. Also not having armor, food, jewelry and weapon help until you're further along.
  • mb10
    mb10
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    ESO quests are terrible

    "Hey go there and do that but watch out there are things that can't kill you"

    The level of ease is actually ridiculous. There should be some incredibly difficult solo quests in the game that require gear and mechanics that usually come from the help of the community.

    And by mechanics I DONT mean another normal dwemer sphere but has 10x the health and 10x the damage but still the same boring predictable attacks.

    This is one department I think ESO is genuinely terrible in. It's way way WAY too easy to quest.

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