The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

Publius_Scipio

Anyone think about getting some input on a matter like this from someone like Gilliam the Rouge? He genuinely likes ESO, is extremely knowledgable of its systems and how everything is stitched together, and he is neutral of any PvP beefs, objective opinions on groups/zergs, and tells it like is without sugar on top.

Anazasi

technohic wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Nerf earthgore, remove group purge so siege DOTs can happen, add the proxy det damage multiplier to some siege like just DOT trebs and balistas but not oils. Then if people ball up to spam PBAOEs they are prime targets for this.

I like parts of this idea. However, we have all seen what increased DOT damage is like from siege when ZOS messed it up. The short week of play that happened during this nightmare was Siege Wars. Groups never really were able to engage each other Siege simply melted everyone before they could breach a wall or door. Purge is probably not something anyone wants ZOS to mess with. We have seen them in the past mess this up pretty bad including the most recent patch where Efficient Purge was stacking. Purge comes at a cost and a very high cost perhaps re-visting the cost parameters might be in order. Earth Gore is working as intended. I doubt they will do anything to that set.

Thats where I wouldn't want a direct buff to DOT damage so much as making purge at least require a synergy. Scaling up similar to proxy would then just discourage being really balled up like a current destro train does. Could be a smaller radius for its calculations even.

Nerfing heals, destro ult, and other active abilities that the single player could used just does not do anything as far as who has the advantage. It just waters it down for everyone. Earthgore though; is not as powerful alone but in large groups with a bunch of them, it suddenly becomes what Malubeth was on steroids and they nerfed Malubeth.

Only other thing I can think of is diminishing returns on AOEs that are stacked on top of each other. Make it so that AOE healing or damage of the same skill cannot stack and different skills get reduced effect, but that would kill PvE meta so it would have to be in battle spirit

This is all assuming that ZOS does not want these ball groups. Otherwise, I just try to avoid them

This is a very interesting point. My impression however is what would be considered realistic number? I mean is 6 too many in a raid of 24. I think we have all at some point seen the effects of stacking in excess certain abilities, classes, or even proc sets. But doesn't it then become an issue from the player side and not the development side. I mean at some point we as a community have to step up and say morally there is a standard of play that should stop organized groups from taking such extreme measures. Yes this is definitely a bad thing but I would like to think zos measures these extreme uses before something even hits PTS.

pzschrek

Qbiken wrote: »

Together with some changes to Earthgore, a nerf to rapid manouver is probably the best solution I´ve seen in this thread (no troll). At least add a cooldown to the snare-removal part.

Cyrodil is already nigh-unplayable without rapids, forward momentum, immob pots, etc. You simply can't live without one of these in there. There is such an unbelievable amount of cc.

Anazasi wrote: »

First and probably the hardest is finding the right players willing to run support builds. This is very very difficult because with these 4 to 8 players the group mechanic won't work. Then you have to find the right type of dps players running the correct gear combinations.

Agreed. Before we even talk about execution skill and leadership talent, the recruitment, logistics and personnel part of the "organized group" is the hard part.

As to the "you can't counterplay a ball zerg!" Well, that's the point. You can, but coordination is rewarded. Everyone has a job and exists to enhance an asset or cover a vulnerability the group has. Just like troops in a rifle squad.

Since the day I went into Cyro, I've always considered the ball meta to be the highest, most evolved form of team/group pvp. I enjoy lots of kinds of PVP but nothing has happened to fundamentally change my mind since.

Lucky28

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I agree with OP - at least to some point. ZOS seems to acknowledge that the problem exists as they nerfed destro ulti in a previous patch. However - it did not solved the problem. Why ? Well, that is because a destro ulti itself is not a problem. Sure, you might say that destro ulti has very little counter-play. And that is true. You can not dodge it or block it. The only way is to simply try to stay out of its range and/or out-heal it or (in a 1 v 1 scenario) - kill the caster fast.

The real poblem is a combination of some aspects & factors. Usually destro ulti groups run cc immunity potions and Rapid Maneuver. Add some healers and cc spaming tanks to that group and - there is maybe like... 0.5% counter-play against that. Sorcs have neagate and a well cordinated negates might do the trick. But what if you are not a sorc and dont have a negate magic skill ? Running away is your only option ?!

The point is that people are lazy and will simply always use things that give the best results with least input effort. As far as I remember it was always like this. Before destro ulti there was a meteor spam. There will be always "something" that will be used that way - with the least possible amount of counter-play.

The only way to stop those groups is to simply... Idk discourage zergs in some way instead of rewarding them ? Something like decreased AP gain while grouped ? Idk... on the other hand this might couse a sudden increase of gankers in cyro.. So it is not the best solution.... and I fear that there might be simply - no good solution at all.

Yet again another example of the inability by a large proportion of the player base to separate organised groups in their minds from faction zergs. What do you think will happen if groups are completely removed? I can tell you that if you remove the dangers to stacking I.e coordinated groups ability to take on 3-4x their number cyro will finally become one big train from alessia to BRK and chal to aleswell.

And you will see a huge drop in the proportion of interest in pvp.

Also not in response to your comment but the sentiment that players in groups are there to only support the nbs is funny. For my eyes it's not like this at all. Especially for rapids.

Wait a second...
Are you saying that large number of unorganised players (15-20+) are zerg but somehow a large number of organised (grouped players following crown) are not a zerg ?!

Anyway I did not said anything about removing groups. I just pointed out that as far as I know there is simply no drawback in using a group. And as you have metioned well organised groups have ability to take down 3-4x of their numbers...

I don't consider 15-20 players to be a zerg. What constitutes a zerg to me is behaviour not size. For example a faction moving from keep to keep in a line they are zerging towards that objective. An organised group going to another objective and separating from this faction push separates them from this definition imo.

Sure all groups can participate in zerging behaviour but I don't consider them by definition "A zerg" no.

Iza you're arguing against the masses here. You've gotta accept that in alot of people's eyes organized groups are the problem, the devs as well as the majority of the player base don't seem to think outnumbered PvP in any form should be possible. .

Agreed that's why PvP is in the mess it's in. If people who hated organised play hadn't been so influential at the start then I'm sure we would have far better systems and a more fun and populated game. The only thing which can be done now is to try and prevent further deterioration and hope to win over ones and twos

honestly i think even that ship has sailed. morrowind pretty much devastated the pvp playerbase and Wrobel wants to homogenize all the classes in the next few updates which will likely kill off the rest of the playerbase. i really think ZOS just gave up on PvP.

Joy_Division

vortexman11 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I agree with OP - at least to some point. ZOS seems to acknowledge that the problem exists as they nerfed destro ulti in a previous patch. However - it did not solved the problem. Why ? Well, that is because a destro ulti itself is not a problem. Sure, you might say that destro ulti has very little counter-play. And that is true. You can not dodge it or block it. The only way is to simply try to stay out of its range and/or out-heal it or (in a 1 v 1 scenario) - kill the caster fast.

The real poblem is a combination of some aspects & factors. Usually destro ulti groups run cc immunity potions and Rapid Maneuver. Add some healers and cc spaming tanks to that group and - there is maybe like... 0.5% counter-play against that. Sorcs have neagate and a well cordinated negates might do the trick. But what if you are not a sorc and dont have a negate magic skill ? Running away is your only option ?!

The point is that people are lazy and will simply always use things that give the best results with least input effort. As far as I remember it was always like this. Before destro ulti there was a meteor spam. There will be always "something" that will be used that way - with the least possible amount of counter-play.

The only way to stop those groups is to simply... Idk discourage zergs in some way instead of rewarding them ? Something like decreased AP gain while grouped ? Idk... on the other hand this might couse a sudden increase of gankers in cyro.. So it is not the best solution.... and I fear that there might be simply - no good solution at all.

Yet again another example of the inability by a large proportion of the player base to separate organised groups in their minds from faction zergs. What do you think will happen if groups are completely removed? I can tell you that if you remove the dangers to stacking I.e coordinated groups ability to take on 3-4x their number cyro will finally become one big train from alessia to BRK and chal to aleswell.

And you will see a huge drop in the proportion of interest in pvp.

Also not in response to your comment but the sentiment that players in groups are there to only support the nbs is funny. For my eyes it's not like this at all. Especially for rapids.

Wait a second...
Are you saying that large number of unorganised players (15-20+) are zerg but somehow a large number of organised (grouped players following crown) are not a zerg ?!

Anyway I did not said anything about removing groups. I just pointed out that as far as I know there is simply no drawback in using a group. And as you have metioned well organised groups have ability to take down 3-4x of their numbers...

I don't consider 15-20 players to be a zerg. What constitutes a zerg to me is behaviour not size. For example a faction moving from keep to keep in a line they are zerging towards that objective. An organised group going to another objective and separating from this faction push separates them from this definition imo.

Sure all groups can participate in zerging behaviour but I don't consider them by definition "A zerg" no.

Iza you're arguing against the masses here. You've gotta accept that in alot of people's eyes organized groups are the problem, the devs as well as the majority of the player base don't seem to think outnumbered PvP in any form should be possible. Reading the forums I often get the sense that people would prefer to see a mindless group of 50 players light attacking their way through a field than coordinated groups going against each other from every faction.

I mean honestly people, what is the thought process behind nerfing rapids? It already drops off of a player the moment a skill is cast forcing a dedicated player into specific builds if a group wants to have it maintained at all times. I agree with the point that a group should have no advantage other than the fact that they have more players, but does this really translate into removing all of the tools necessary to survive when you're getting run down with an entire faction on your tail?

Yes, but I think there's more to it. I can't say I have any scientific evidence to support this, but I think "the masses" make a distinction between the sort of strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots and a loose group of 24 players who don't run nearly as tight and don't look like ducklings following their mother.

The organized bot like pain trains have always been ridiculously more powerful than groups of comparable sise and dying to them is often just a matter of getting run over by masses using PBAoEs, something that at least doesn't have the perception of being skillful. And the aesthetics, or rather the lack of them, is surely a factor. Perceptions matter; these ball-groups don't seem to have any intricate strategy other than just blobbing together and brute forcing things with AoE skills.

When I'm alone, the absolute last thing I want to see on my way from BRK to SeJ is a ball-group and I'd much rather come across a mindless group of 50 players because there's absolutely nothing I can do against the ball-group whereas against the mindless 50, I can actually kill a few of them and feel like I'm accomplishing something. So, yes, even me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them. The only time I ever wanted to fight or deal with a ball-group was being in another ball-group (which was odd because in that setting, I preferred fighting ball-groups over mindless masses because the competition was better).

The idea of nerfing Rapids comes from the frustrations of fighting those organized ball groups. What good are snares and roots if a ball-group is just going to have 1 member mindless spamming rapids to make them immune to something that counters - effectively - the rest of us peons and puga? Aside from the issue of whether or not it's a good thing for a compelling PvP strategy that to have one person whose sole function is just to spam one button that makes the entire group immune to a fundamental mechanics of roots and snares the rest of us have to suffer and make allowances in our builds. Purge-bot, rapids monkey, it just seems mindless. It's why people don't like it.

Vilestride

Joy_Division wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I agree with OP - at least to some point. ZOS seems to acknowledge that the problem exists as they nerfed destro ulti in a previous patch. However - it did not solved the problem. Why ? Well, that is because a destro ulti itself is not a problem. Sure, you might say that destro ulti has very little counter-play. And that is true. You can not dodge it or block it. The only way is to simply try to stay out of its range and/or out-heal it or (in a 1 v 1 scenario) - kill the caster fast.

The real poblem is a combination of some aspects & factors. Usually destro ulti groups run cc immunity potions and Rapid Maneuver. Add some healers and cc spaming tanks to that group and - there is maybe like... 0.5% counter-play against that. Sorcs have neagate and a well cordinated negates might do the trick. But what if you are not a sorc and dont have a negate magic skill ? Running away is your only option ?!

The point is that people are lazy and will simply always use things that give the best results with least input effort. As far as I remember it was always like this. Before destro ulti there was a meteor spam. There will be always "something" that will be used that way - with the least possible amount of counter-play.

The only way to stop those groups is to simply... Idk discourage zergs in some way instead of rewarding them ? Something like decreased AP gain while grouped ? Idk... on the other hand this might couse a sudden increase of gankers in cyro.. So it is not the best solution.... and I fear that there might be simply - no good solution at all.

Yet again another example of the inability by a large proportion of the player base to separate organised groups in their minds from faction zergs. What do you think will happen if groups are completely removed? I can tell you that if you remove the dangers to stacking I.e coordinated groups ability to take on 3-4x their number cyro will finally become one big train from alessia to BRK and chal to aleswell.

And you will see a huge drop in the proportion of interest in pvp.

Also not in response to your comment but the sentiment that players in groups are there to only support the nbs is funny. For my eyes it's not like this at all. Especially for rapids.

Wait a second...
Are you saying that large number of unorganised players (15-20+) are zerg but somehow a large number of organised (grouped players following crown) are not a zerg ?!

Anyway I did not said anything about removing groups. I just pointed out that as far as I know there is simply no drawback in using a group. And as you have metioned well organised groups have ability to take down 3-4x of their numbers...

I don't consider 15-20 players to be a zerg. What constitutes a zerg to me is behaviour not size. For example a faction moving from keep to keep in a line they are zerging towards that objective. An organised group going to another objective and separating from this faction push separates them from this definition imo.

Sure all groups can participate in zerging behaviour but I don't consider them by definition "A zerg" no.

Iza you're arguing against the masses here. You've gotta accept that in alot of people's eyes organized groups are the problem, the devs as well as the majority of the player base don't seem to think outnumbered PvP in any form should be possible. Reading the forums I often get the sense that people would prefer to see a mindless group of 50 players light attacking their way through a field than coordinated groups going against each other from every faction.

I mean honestly people, what is the thought process behind nerfing rapids? It already drops off of a player the moment a skill is cast forcing a dedicated player into specific builds if a group wants to have it maintained at all times. I agree with the point that a group should have no advantage other than the fact that they have more players, but does this really translate into removing all of the tools necessary to survive when you're getting run down with an entire faction on your tail?

Yes, but I think there's more to it. I can't say I have any scientific evidence to support this, but I think "the masses" make a distinction between the sort of strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots and a loose group of 24 players who don't run nearly as tight and don't look like ducklings following their mother.

The organized bot like pain trains have always been ridiculously more powerful than groups of comparable sise and dying to them is often just a matter of getting run over by masses using PBAoEs, something that at least doesn't have the perception of being skillful. And the aesthetics, or rather the lack of them, is surely a factor. Perceptions matter; these ball-groups don't seem to have any intricate strategy other than just blobbing together and brute forcing things with AoE skills.

When I'm alone, the absolute last thing I want to see on my way from BRK to SeJ is a ball-group and I'd much rather come across a mindless group of 50 players because there's absolutely nothing I can do against the ball-group whereas against the mindless 50, I can actually kill a few of them and feel like I'm accomplishing something. So, yes, even me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them. The only time I ever wanted to fight or deal with a ball-group was being in another ball-group (which was odd because in that setting, I preferred fighting ball-groups over mindless masses because the competition was better).

The idea of nerfing Rapids comes from the frustrations of fighting those organized ball groups. What good are snares and roots if a ball-group is just going to have 1 member mindless spamming rapids to make them immune to something that counters - effectively - the rest of us peons and puga? Aside from the issue of whether or not it's a good thing for a compelling PvP strategy that to have one person whose sole function is just to spam one button that makes the entire group immune to a fundamental mechanics of roots and snares the rest of us have to suffer and make allowances in our builds. Purge-bot, rapids monkey, it just seems mindless. It's why people don't like it.

Where I take issue with this is that things often seem one way or another from the outside and it's simply not always true.

Change should never be made on the basis of perception.

Purge bots and rapids spamming are not easy roles. Not if you want to do them well. And that is the distinction. Any role is easy or mindless if you are going to do it mindlessly. But I can promise you if someone is going to be mindless about their rapids support role they will not achieve much and their group will still die.

I understand your sentiment. I just would hate to see perception lead the way.

Autumnhart

Joy_Division wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I agree with OP - at least to some point. ZOS seems to acknowledge that the problem exists as they nerfed destro ulti in a previous patch. However - it did not solved the problem. Why ? Well, that is because a destro ulti itself is not a problem. Sure, you might say that destro ulti has very little counter-play. And that is true. You can not dodge it or block it. The only way is to simply try to stay out of its range and/or out-heal it or (in a 1 v 1 scenario) - kill the caster fast.

The real poblem is a combination of some aspects & factors. Usually destro ulti groups run cc immunity potions and Rapid Maneuver. Add some healers and cc spaming tanks to that group and - there is maybe like... 0.5% counter-play against that. Sorcs have neagate and a well cordinated negates might do the trick. But what if you are not a sorc and dont have a negate magic skill ? Running away is your only option ?!

The point is that people are lazy and will simply always use things that give the best results with least input effort. As far as I remember it was always like this. Before destro ulti there was a meteor spam. There will be always "something" that will be used that way - with the least possible amount of counter-play.

The only way to stop those groups is to simply... Idk discourage zergs in some way instead of rewarding them ? Something like decreased AP gain while grouped ? Idk... on the other hand this might couse a sudden increase of gankers in cyro.. So it is not the best solution.... and I fear that there might be simply - no good solution at all.

Yet again another example of the inability by a large proportion of the player base to separate organised groups in their minds from faction zergs. What do you think will happen if groups are completely removed? I can tell you that if you remove the dangers to stacking I.e coordinated groups ability to take on 3-4x their number cyro will finally become one big train from alessia to BRK and chal to aleswell.

And you will see a huge drop in the proportion of interest in pvp.

Also not in response to your comment but the sentiment that players in groups are there to only support the nbs is funny. For my eyes it's not like this at all. Especially for rapids.

Wait a second...
Are you saying that large number of unorganised players (15-20+) are zerg but somehow a large number of organised (grouped players following crown) are not a zerg ?!

Anyway I did not said anything about removing groups. I just pointed out that as far as I know there is simply no drawback in using a group. And as you have metioned well organised groups have ability to take down 3-4x of their numbers...

I don't consider 15-20 players to be a zerg. What constitutes a zerg to me is behaviour not size. For example a faction moving from keep to keep in a line they are zerging towards that objective. An organised group going to another objective and separating from this faction push separates them from this definition imo.

Sure all groups can participate in zerging behaviour but I don't consider them by definition "A zerg" no.

Iza you're arguing against the masses here. You've gotta accept that in alot of people's eyes organized groups are the problem, the devs as well as the majority of the player base don't seem to think outnumbered PvP in any form should be possible. Reading the forums I often get the sense that people would prefer to see a mindless group of 50 players light attacking their way through a field than coordinated groups going against each other from every faction.

I mean honestly people, what is the thought process behind nerfing rapids? It already drops off of a player the moment a skill is cast forcing a dedicated player into specific builds if a group wants to have it maintained at all times. I agree with the point that a group should have no advantage other than the fact that they have more players, but does this really translate into removing all of the tools necessary to survive when you're getting run down with an entire faction on your tail?

Yes, but I think there's more to it. I can't say I have any scientific evidence to support this, but I think "the masses" make a distinction between the sort of strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots and a loose group of 24 players who don't run nearly as tight and don't look like ducklings following their mother.

The organized bot like pain trains have always been ridiculously more powerful than groups of comparable sise and dying to them is often just a matter of getting run over by masses using PBAoEs, something that at least doesn't have the perception of being skillful. And the aesthetics, or rather the lack of them, is surely a factor. Perceptions matter; these ball-groups don't seem to have any intricate strategy other than just blobbing together and brute forcing things with AoE skills.

When I'm alone, the absolute last thing I want to see on my way from BRK to SeJ is a ball-group and I'd much rather come across a mindless group of 50 players because there's absolutely nothing I can do against the ball-group whereas against the mindless 50, I can actually kill a few of them and feel like I'm accomplishing something. So, yes, even me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them. The only time I ever wanted to fight or deal with a ball-group was being in another ball-group (which was odd because in that setting, I preferred fighting ball-groups over mindless masses because the competition was better).

The idea of nerfing Rapids comes from the frustrations of fighting those organized ball groups. What good are snares and roots if a ball-group is just going to have 1 member mindless spamming rapids to make them immune to something that counters - effectively - the rest of us peons and puga? Aside from the issue of whether or not it's a good thing for a compelling PvP strategy that to have one person whose sole function is just to spam one button that makes the entire group immune to a fundamental mechanics of roots and snares the rest of us have to suffer and make allowances in our builds. Purge-bot, rapids monkey, it just seems mindless. It's why people don't like it.

Yes. I'm not going to condemn people for using the most effective tactics available to them, but I can understand calls for something to be changed that would make running wrecking balls more trouble than they're worth. They are hands down the most boring iteration of PVP in ESO, but un-ignorable and unavoidable for those who care about playing the map.

But whether that playstyle is a factor in sucking the fun and life out of Cyrodiil is moot. Cyrodiil is in trouble because the game is pervasively buggy, and because the PVP population has bottomed out. If hyper-specialized ball groups disappeared today, Cyro would still be in trouble. Whatever we build on a shaky foundation will be shaky.

Anazasi

I like what you are saying @Joy_Division but I think what everyone is missing is the understanding of what organized group play is. If we go way back in history, something that ZOS did when they created this game was break, at the time, the current game meta of the traditional Tank, Heal, and DPS holy trinity comp. I could spend a few hours searching the web for all the early release articles that support this but I won't. Suffice it to say the generation of players today feel the should be able to do it all solo which is supported by the constant 1 V X hype videos and builds the game is plagued with. Not saying that that play style is wrong in anyway. Group play for organized groups is very intricate. The builds are extremely tuned to do 1 thing and do it very well. When you bring all the necessary parts together you have what i think you are calling a ball group. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this either. In fact the coordination of accomplishing this is amazing (it's the thrill of PVP in ESO). The casual player thinks that the ball group just gets together and pushes 1 or 2 buttons over and over and they are so wrong. The hours of grinding the gear, the hours of playing in a consistent group to create muscle memory, skill, and cohesion is in many instances harder than doing vet hard mode dungeons. Leading such groups is complicated at best. Moving 16 or 24 players across a field together in unison, constantly positioning and repositioning to cover yourself takes a huge level of skill not just from the leader who is constantly watching everything going on around the group including what other groups are coming into the fight. The planning ahead that leaders have to make, the calculations on if my group hits proxi now where will they be in 8 seconds and can we get there as a group is complex. Having specialized roles and builds makes this a little easier but it never changes the possibility that in 3 seconds it could all change (the addiction). In PVE we go in and know with certainty that this is the mechanic of a fight. We know we tank the boss here and hit this DPS threshold and the boss dies in x minutes. In PVP you build your comp to cover as many possibilities, you devise a plan of attack and exit just in case it goes wrong and everyone works in unison performing their roles to reach the objective that may or may not be the same in 2 minutes. I guess PVP is about uncertainty. Building and working together to achieve the unknown and win the fight. I guess for me at least that's the reason we PVP. Static situations that are rinse and repeat suck. PVP is a constant evolution of dynamics that often the group has no control over. So in short group play is about building specialized roles and pushing them to their limits.

I think if more players were exposed to the tools and had good experiences the addiction to PVP that we share probably would take hold and the community would start growing more organized play. I know from my perspective this is what I try to show and teach players. Nerfing anything at this point would be wrong and cause more harm than good I think.

I guess what I am trying to say is just because we can do something doesn't always mean we have to do it. PVP can escalate pretty fast ESO but that is something the organized groups can control simply by choosing to play a different way.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Autumnhart wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I agree with OP - at least to some point. ZOS seems to acknowledge that the problem exists as they nerfed destro ulti in a previous patch. However - it did not solved the problem. Why ? Well, that is because a destro ulti itself is not a problem. Sure, you might say that destro ulti has very little counter-play. And that is true. You can not dodge it or block it. The only way is to simply try to stay out of its range and/or out-heal it or (in a 1 v 1 scenario) - kill the caster fast.

The real poblem is a combination of some aspects & factors. Usually destro ulti groups run cc immunity potions and Rapid Maneuver. Add some healers and cc spaming tanks to that group and - there is maybe like... 0.5% counter-play against that. Sorcs have neagate and a well cordinated negates might do the trick. But what if you are not a sorc and dont have a negate magic skill ? Running away is your only option ?!

The point is that people are lazy and will simply always use things that give the best results with least input effort. As far as I remember it was always like this. Before destro ulti there was a meteor spam. There will be always "something" that will be used that way - with the least possible amount of counter-play.

The only way to stop those groups is to simply... Idk discourage zergs in some way instead of rewarding them ? Something like decreased AP gain while grouped ? Idk... on the other hand this might couse a sudden increase of gankers in cyro.. So it is not the best solution.... and I fear that there might be simply - no good solution at all.

Yet again another example of the inability by a large proportion of the player base to separate organised groups in their minds from faction zergs. What do you think will happen if groups are completely removed? I can tell you that if you remove the dangers to stacking I.e coordinated groups ability to take on 3-4x their number cyro will finally become one big train from alessia to BRK and chal to aleswell.

And you will see a huge drop in the proportion of interest in pvp.

Also not in response to your comment but the sentiment that players in groups are there to only support the nbs is funny. For my eyes it's not like this at all. Especially for rapids.

Wait a second...
Are you saying that large number of unorganised players (15-20+) are zerg but somehow a large number of organised (grouped players following crown) are not a zerg ?!

Anyway I did not said anything about removing groups. I just pointed out that as far as I know there is simply no drawback in using a group. And as you have metioned well organised groups have ability to take down 3-4x of their numbers...

I don't consider 15-20 players to be a zerg. What constitutes a zerg to me is behaviour not size. For example a faction moving from keep to keep in a line they are zerging towards that objective. An organised group going to another objective and separating from this faction push separates them from this definition imo.

Sure all groups can participate in zerging behaviour but I don't consider them by definition "A zerg" no.

Iza you're arguing against the masses here. You've gotta accept that in alot of people's eyes organized groups are the problem, the devs as well as the majority of the player base don't seem to think outnumbered PvP in any form should be possible. Reading the forums I often get the sense that people would prefer to see a mindless group of 50 players light attacking their way through a field than coordinated groups going against each other from every faction.

I mean honestly people, what is the thought process behind nerfing rapids? It already drops off of a player the moment a skill is cast forcing a dedicated player into specific builds if a group wants to have it maintained at all times. I agree with the point that a group should have no advantage other than the fact that they have more players, but does this really translate into removing all of the tools necessary to survive when you're getting run down with an entire faction on your tail?

Yes, but I think there's more to it. I can't say I have any scientific evidence to support this, but I think "the masses" make a distinction between the sort of strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots and a loose group of 24 players who don't run nearly as tight and don't look like ducklings following their mother.

The organized bot like pain trains have always been ridiculously more powerful than groups of comparable sise and dying to them is often just a matter of getting run over by masses using PBAoEs, something that at least doesn't have the perception of being skillful. And the aesthetics, or rather the lack of them, is surely a factor. Perceptions matter; these ball-groups don't seem to have any intricate strategy other than just blobbing together and brute forcing things with AoE skills.

When I'm alone, the absolute last thing I want to see on my way from BRK to SeJ is a ball-group and I'd much rather come across a mindless group of 50 players because there's absolutely nothing I can do against the ball-group whereas against the mindless 50, I can actually kill a few of them and feel like I'm accomplishing something. So, yes, even me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them. The only time I ever wanted to fight or deal with a ball-group was being in another ball-group (which was odd because in that setting, I preferred fighting ball-groups over mindless masses because the competition was better).

The idea of nerfing Rapids comes from the frustrations of fighting those organized ball groups. What good are snares and roots if a ball-group is just going to have 1 member mindless spamming rapids to make them immune to something that counters - effectively - the rest of us peons and puga? Aside from the issue of whether or not it's a good thing for a compelling PvP strategy that to have one person whose sole function is just to spam one button that makes the entire group immune to a fundamental mechanics of roots and snares the rest of us have to suffer and make allowances in our builds. Purge-bot, rapids monkey, it just seems mindless. It's why people don't like it.

Yes. I'm not going to condemn people for using the most effective tactics available to them, but I can understand calls for something to be changed that would make running wrecking balls more trouble than they're worth. They are hands down the most boring iteration of PVP in ESO, but un-ignorable and unavoidable for those who care about playing the map.

But whether that playstyle is a factor in sucking the fun and life out of Cyrodiil is moot. Cyrodiil is in trouble because the game is pervasively buggy, and because the PVP population has bottomed out. If hyper-specialized ball groups disappeared today, Cyro would still be in trouble. Whatever we build on a shaky foundation will be shaky.

I don't know what groups you have been in but fighting in extremely outnumbered situations isn't boring and thats what the majority of good groups are doing.
What is boring is one blob of faction vs another blob of faction outside of chal for 2h because there are no groups to push in or out. The lag which comes from that fight is terrible and its not the 'groups' causing it. its the "Mindless" pug masses who complain that 'groups are so boring and unskilled' which are causing it.

I'm sorry but any calls to nerf groups are completely misguided and dangerous for the game. As has already been proved ever since launch until the most recent patches.

Destro - an anti group ulti because "class ultis are so boring we want something new",
proxy - an anti group tool called for by the pug masses

and what happens? groups start to use these ultis because they are effective at their task (of clearing large numbers) and everyone complains now destro is so boring and proxy is only used by coordinated groups.

No groups were asking for these tools.

@Joy_Division
you say "I think "the masses" make a distinction between the sort of strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots and a loose group of 24 players who don't run nearly as tight"

Yes they likely do whilst sitting in their 40m faction zerg, they likely think of 1 as a threat and one as just 'food'. Does this make it wrong to play well and in a coordinated mannor? no of course not.

You could ask where is the skill from playing in such a group. I'd volunteer the fact that if it was easily achievable the majority of the player-base would do it because it is effective.
Therefor it is completely clear, to anyone who chooses to actually apply some analytical thought to the situation imo, that it is harder to play in a group in that manor then it is to zerg from keep to keep.

The answer when you see a group you would like to kill is to make a group of your own, play with other people, socialise and coordinate, it is after all an MMO for a reason. If you want to play solo then pick off people to the sides or wait for a more appropriate fight, there are always un-groupped players around the front lines to fight.

Additionally there have been hundereds of posts listing "how to kill a group" its honestly really easy with little investment. The majority of groups don't even take much to stop them these days unfortunately.

Guilds and guild groups are the lifeblood of pvp, its what keeps the majority of the dedicated players logging into the game, daily or weekly just for raid nights or more. You saw how empty the map feels when certain guilds stop playing for one faction. That isn't a coincidence its because their players don't have a reason to participate any more.

usmcjdking

@Anazasi At no point should anyone be asked or guilt-shamed into playing a game a different way than they would like to. Which is precisely what you are doing.

This thread is focused on what is empowering Destruction Staff Ultimate/Devouring Swarm/Batpulsing/Batnados groups. Any direct information that is discussing the type of warhead/payload in use when the issue is really the delivery system. The way the Destruction Staff Ultimate is best delivered to it's target simply has too little or no counterplay. Permanent snare/root immunity, constant purging, automated safety heals in the form of Earthgore, intentional abuse of AOE caps...

All of this leads to a group that takes a tremendous amount of faction effort to kill. From Taran's point of view, what this ends up leading to is that, frankly speaking...no one wants to fight that cheese ***. When the only legitimate counter is to simply not engage and, you know, PVP, then why bother? There will be some players who enjoy trying to dance around a powerball group and seeing if they can get clutch pickoffs (myself included), but most players don't care to try that and I don't blame them. Taran has a valid point. If you make things too easy for yourself you run the risk of not getting decent fights.

Conversely, @vortexman11 @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO have a very valid argument. Literally anyone can accomplish this and stomp as hard as they stomp. There is no supernatural force stopping anyone from prepping, training, equipping and applying their group principles in their own group. They both argue that calling for nerfs due to people's unwillingness to adapt in not an appropriate method of advising gameplay changes. Absolutely valid. Why should they be punished when anyone is capable of accomplishing it? If you make things unnecessarily difficult for yourself because you won't get with the program, don't be surprised that PVP becomes unecessarily difficult because of your unwillingness to get with the *** program.

Unfortunately, neither argument actually adresses the other - they are parallels. Any attempt would fall on deaf ears as can readily be witnessed in this thread.

Anazasi

usmcjdking wrote: »

@Anazasi At no point should anyone be asked or guilt-shamed into playing a game a different way than they would like to. Which is precisely what you are doing.

This thread is focused on what is empowering Destruction Staff Ultimate/Devouring Swarm/Batpulsing/Batnados groups. Any direct information that is discussing the type of warhead/payload in use when the issue is really the delivery system. The way the Destruction Staff Ultimate is best delivered to it's target simply has too little or no counterplay. Permanent snare/root immunity, constant purging, automated safety heals in the form of Earthgore, intentional abuse of AOE caps...

All of this leads to a group that takes a tremendous amount of faction effort to kill. From Taran's point of view, what this ends up leading to is that, frankly speaking...no one wants to fight that cheese ***. When the only legitimate counter is to simply not engage and, you know, PVP, then why bother? There will be some players who enjoy trying to dance around a powerball group and seeing if they can get clutch pickoffs (myself included), but most players don't care to try that and I don't blame them. Taran has a valid point. If you make things too easy for yourself you run the risk of not getting decent fights.

Conversely, @vortexman11 @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO have a very valid argument. Literally anyone can accomplish this and stomp as hard as they stomp. There is no supernatural force stopping anyone from prepping, training, equipping and applying their group principles in their own group. They both argue that calling for nerfs due to people's unwillingness to adapt in not an appropriate method of advising gameplay changes. Absolutely valid. Why should they be punished when anyone is capable of accomplishing it? If you make things unnecessarily difficult for yourself because you won't get with the program, don't be surprised that PVP becomes unecessarily difficult because of your unwillingness to get with the *** program.

Unfortunately, neither argument actually adresses the other - they are parallels. Any attempt would fall on deaf ears as can readily be witnessed in this thread.

I'm lost here. What are you talking about. I have never guilt-shamed anyone into playing a way they don't want to. For you to even say that is so far off topic that it's almost criminal.

techprince

Rapid should not provide immunity at all. Let Retreating remove at the cast, that is all.

Vilestride

usmcjdking wrote: »

@Anazasi At no point should anyone be asked or guilt-shamed into playing a game a different way than they would like to. Which is precisely what you are doing.

This thread is focused on what is empowering Destruction Staff Ultimate/Devouring Swarm/Batpulsing/Batnados groups. Any direct information that is discussing the type of warhead/payload in use when the issue is really the delivery system. The way the Destruction Staff Ultimate is best delivered to it's target simply has too little or no counterplay. Permanent snare/root immunity, constant purging, automated safety heals in the form of Earthgore, intentional abuse of AOE caps...

All of this leads to a group that takes a tremendous amount of faction effort to kill. From Taran's point of view, what this ends up leading to is that, frankly speaking...no one wants to fight that cheese ***. When the only legitimate counter is to simply not engage and, you know, PVP, then why bother? There will be some players who enjoy trying to dance around a powerball group and seeing if they can get clutch pickoffs (myself included), but most players don't care to try that and I don't blame them. Taran has a valid point. If you make things too easy for yourself you run the risk of not getting decent fights.

Conversely, @vortexman11 @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO have a very valid argument. Literally anyone can accomplish this and stomp as hard as they stomp. There is no supernatural force stopping anyone from prepping, training, equipping and applying their group principles in their own group. They both argue that calling for nerfs due to people's unwillingness to adapt in not an appropriate method of advising gameplay changes. Absolutely valid. Why should they be punished when anyone is capable of accomplishing it? If you make things unnecessarily difficult for yourself because you won't get with the program, don't be surprised that PVP becomes unecessarily difficult because of your unwillingness to get with the *** program.

Unfortunately, neither argument actually adresses the other - they are parallels. Any attempt would fall on deaf ears as can readily be witnessed in this thread.

Good analysis. Now we are getting somewhere. I think the actual solution will lie in changes to the core map gameplay of cyrodil rather than buffs or nerfs to combat mechanics. As pointed out the later is futile because there will always just be a next meta.

based on the idea that we don't want to kill off raid groups, small scalers or to be honest even the zergs of casual players who just log in and head to the action, I think what will better solve the issues we are seeing will be realigning the roles that those catagories of players have within cyrodil. As you specified the issue is not inherently that a ball group exists it's that currently the objective incentive of this game means you have to fight it even if you are a solo player. The frustration is that there are no fights relative to you and that is a shame.

Re define and re establish the purpose intended for each style of group play within cyrodil and it's objectives to ensure that groups are more often met by opposition that is suited to fight them and the rest will become much easier to balance.

Xsorus

only a few points in this game has Zerg Balls been someone stopped in their tracks

When VD/Prox Det combo was actually powerful you had groups actually spreading out more and not zerg balling as much

When Oil Catapults actually applied that 70% unbreakable snare that you couldn't use Rapids to get away from.

Groups were eating those followed by the Meatbags and dying because their zergball was no longer mobile.

Sanct16

The root of the problem is people asking for nerfs without even understanding the mechanics that empower groups. For example the fact that people still think that groups stack to get an advantage bc of aoe caps is hilarious.

If you don't understand how a car works, don't try to repair it. You will just break it.

Joy_Division

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Joy_Division
you say "I think "the masses" make a distinction between the sort of strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots and a loose group of 24 players who don't run nearly as tight"

Yes they likely do whilst sitting in their 40m faction zerg, they likely think of 1 as a threat and one as just 'food'. Does this make it wrong to play well and in a coordinated mannor? no of course not.

You could ask where is the skill from playing in such a group. I'd volunteer the fact that if it was easily achievable the majority of the player-base would do it because it is effective.
Therefor it is completely clear, to anyone who chooses to actually apply some analytical thought to the situation imo, that it is harder to play in a group in that manor then it is to zerg from keep to keep.

The answer when you see a group you would like to kill is to make a group of your own, play with other people, socialise and coordinate, it is after all an MMO for a reason. If you want to play solo then pick off people to the sides or wait for a more appropriate fight, there are always un-groupped players around the front lines to fight.

Additionally there have been hundereds of posts listing "how to kill a group" its honestly really easy with little investment. The majority of groups don't even take much to stop them these days unfortunately.

Guilds and guild groups are the lifeblood of pvp, its what keeps the majority of the dedicated players logging into the game, daily or weekly just for raid nights or more. You saw how empty the map feels when certain guilds stop playing for one faction. That isn't a coincidence its because their players don't have a reason to participate any more.

I don't disagree. I don't need to ask or be told where is the skill from playing such a group because I have done so for two years.

However much people such as yourself may appreciate stack-on-crown organized play and no matter how much skill it takes to play well, a lot of people who play this game can't stand that bot like style. It doesn't make it "wrong" to play that way, I for one have never said anyone who plays in a legal manner is wrong and I couldn't say otherwise since I've done he stack-on-crown thing.

I don't think it's right for ZoS to just smash the nerfhammer to stack-on-crown groups, because as you said before, changes shouldn't be made because of perceptions and preferences. Besides, I have a consistent posting record of opposing nerfs. About the only thing I think needs an out and out nerf is the Earth Gore set.

That being said, I do think it would be wise for ZoS to begin to rethink the mechanics of Cyrodiil and try to encourage organized groups to find that synergy doing something other that concentrating together and delivering PbAoEs en masse. Not because a lot of players don;t like it. But because we've been doing it for the past three years and know it gives a total of one full campaign with a small pop cap of some 120ish players per faction. How many of the people and guilds who quit this game, took an extended break, or left PvP in frustration might if the class they mained brought something that could not be replaced or replicated by whatever flavor of the month class is top dog and more often than not, the best tactic for organized play was not to stack on crown during an engagement?

Sharee

Sanct16 wrote: »

The root of the problem is people asking for nerfs without even understanding the mechanics that empower groups. For example the fact that people still think that groups stack to get an advantage bc of aoe caps is hilarious.

If you don't understand how a car works, don't try to repair it. You will just break it.

Good thing then the car is locked in a server room, and only the devs have the key, eh?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Sanct16 wrote: »

The root of the problem is people asking for nerfs without even understanding the mechanics that empower groups. For example the fact that people still think that groups stack to get an advantage bc of aoe caps is hilarious.

If you don't understand how a car works, don't try to repair it. You will just break it.

^ this

chris211

don't want to get steamrolled? stop complaining and group up

emma666

Sanct16 wrote: »

The root of the problem is people asking for nerfs without even understanding the mechanics that empower groups. For example the fact that people still think that groups stack to get an advantage bc of aoe caps is hilarious.

If you don't understand how a car works, don't try to repair it. You will just break it.

People might not stack just to get the aoe caps advantage, but that doesn't mean that advantage isn't there, it still gives stacked big groups a unfair buff beyond the advantage of already having more numbers. Aoe caps naturally encourages stacking and outnumbering.

Anazasi

This entire thread permeates with the desire and need for change in regards to PVP. This is undeniable. The polarizing issue is not what the problem is or even how the problem is delivered, sustained, or even countered. The issue as I see it is not even a new meta. It's about new innovated ways to play. We can look at this in two ways, from the static map / objective point of view where we see population interacting with objectives or we can look at it from the players interacting with players. Perhaps we are not asking the right questions? Or perhaps the issue we are discussing is really a plea to ZOS to make changes to things we can not change? I really don't think any of us hold the secret answer by ourselves. So let me ask a question that I think is relative and has been discussed a little here: What would happen to PVP if organized group play ceased to exist? What would PVP be like? Is that something you would subscribe to? Is stopping organized PVP even possible?

You see, I don't believe it's possible to stop organized group play. Perhaps with the current meta being stale, which simply implies it's stale for the meta balls that are using it, doesn't inherently mean the entire population even cares since it's really the minority of the population who are fully taking advantage of it. Which in essence means the meta groups have reached the peak and are now bored and either leaving or looking for some new way to find entertainment by doing the same thing with just different comps and builds. It's already been pointed out that meta play is just one vicious circle where the elite pray upon the weaker less organized. But really isn't this whole issue their problem and not the problem of everyone else? I agree that the meta is stale and should be changed, I agree the overall health of the PVP population when it comes to group play is suffering. But it occurs to me that everyone here is thinking mechanics to prevent the behavior when in actuality it's choices that need to change at a group level.

I know my opinions are not shared by this community. I realized that most of you feel that I'm some doddering old fool. But at what point do players stop and really think about what is happening with this entire discussion.

Who's asking for the meta to change? Elite players
Who's asking for abilities to be nerfed? Casual players
Who's asking for more organized play? Elite groups
Who's asking for more objective play? Casual groups

Sometimes we just need to ask ourselves what side of the fence are they on to realize what agenda is being pushed.

I don't want anyone to take any of this personal, I have tried to stay as neutral on this post as possible. I have said over and over play as you like but have some honor when you do. All of this thread and discussion is purely academic since ZOS is the only entity that can affect the type of changes that have been discussed. Everyone has valid perspectives and insights and no one is wrong. What continues to surprise me is the passion that everyone brings to this game. Frankly that's probably the best indicator that there is still life left in PVP, so the only real question to ask is, "what, as a community, are we going to do to make it better?"

Prediction:
The meta will change to something new, the elite groups will continue to ball up using all the same support type roles, the more organized groups will still kill thousands of lessor organized groups. At some point down the road ZOS will make a few minor changes to abilities that the majority complain about the most. Old players will leave, new players will come along and the circle of life will continue regardless if they have destro ultis or a rapids spammer in their groups.

Kilandros

Sanct16 wrote: »

The root of the problem is people asking for nerfs without even understanding the mechanics that empower groups. For example the fact that people still think that groups stack to get an advantage bc of aoe caps is hilarious.

If you don't understand how a car works, don't try to repair it. You will just break it.

Whether you like to admit it or not, larger groups do benefit from AoE caps more than smaller groups. And perhaps if those caps were removed, more larger groups would split into smaller groups and play other areas of the map.

But the fact remains that there is an advantage in stacking because anything over 6 players takes 50% less damage. And anything over 30 players takes 25% less damage. That's just a coding/mathematical fact of this game. But see, I can use numbers to actually make a point. Whereas you have to crutch on a crappy analogy to try and make yours.

Kilandros

emma666 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

The root of the problem is people asking for nerfs without even understanding the mechanics that empower groups. For example the fact that people still think that groups stack to get an advantage bc of aoe caps is hilarious.

If you don't understand how a car works, don't try to repair it. You will just break it.

People might not stack just to get the aoe caps advantage, but that doesn't mean that advantage isn't there, it still gives stacked big groups a unfair buff beyond the advantage of already having more numbers. Aoe caps naturally encourages stacking and outnumbering.

Actually this.

technohic

Maybe they should do collision detection and have players effect LOS.

NightbladeMechanics

What would happen to large scale if, overnight, Earthgore and Negate no longer removed ground-places ults of any kind? The commonality in large scale all through this meta has been using Negate + un-negateable damage and healing effects.

Takes-No-Prisoner

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Actually I always thought it'd be cool if eye of the storm was like a ring or a donut that did damage around the caster but not in the center of the AoE where the caster is located. Probs wouldn't change anything but it would be more creative and cool.

Eye of the donuts has a nice ring to it

Kilandros

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

What would happen to large scale if, overnight, Earthgore and Negate no longer removed ground-places ults of any kind? The commonality in large scale all through this meta has been using Negate + un-negateable damage and healing effects.

I don't think that much would change TBH. Most stationary Ults can't compete with EoTS even in terms of raw damage to say nothing of the added mobile utility. Look at Veil, for example, the radius is too small to be useful on anything other than a flag. And you'd still rather have an EoTS on a flag.

Publius_Scipio

If you all think that the very root of whatever “issue” you are discussing is a meta that ZOS forces upon you then you are all sadly mistaken. CE is only an issue because lightweight chumps decide to use it. If my personality jumped out of my body and took corporeal form and had luggage and a water bottle. These chumps could not carry said luggage and water bottle for it.

And a meta is a meta because people decide to use certain gear, skills, etc. Eye of the Summer Drizzle could disappear from ESO altogether if players all simply decided not to use it. You guys control the meta, the meta doesn’t control you.

Telel is a cat, an enemy in Cyrodiil. But he is an honest cat, and he is honorable. I can respect that.

pzschrek

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

What is boring is one blob of faction vs another blob of faction outside of chal for 2h because there are no groups to push in or out. The lag which comes from that fight is terrible and its not the 'groups' causing it. its the "Mindless" pug masses who complain that 'groups are so boring and unskilled' which are causing it.

This is extremely true. As @PenguinInACan has said more than once, "A good ball group isn't a zerg...it's the COUNTER to a zerg."

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Guilds and guild groups are the lifeblood of pvp, its what keeps the majority of the dedicated players logging into the game, daily or weekly just for raid nights or more. You saw how empty the map feels when certain guilds stop playing for one faction. That isn't a coincidence its because their players don't have a reason to participate any more.

Hear hear. I play ESO for this. When the day comes that I can't find a competent one that raids when I can play, I'll be done.

Sanct16

Kilandros wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

The root of the problem is people asking for nerfs without even understanding the mechanics that empower groups. For example the fact that people still think that groups stack to get an advantage bc of aoe caps is hilarious.

If you don't understand how a car works, don't try to repair it. You will just break it.

Whether you like to admit it or not, larger groups do benefit from AoE caps more than smaller groups. And perhaps if those caps were removed, more larger groups would split into smaller groups and play other areas of the map.

But the fact remains that there is an advantage in stacking because anything over 6 players takes 50% less damage. And anything over 30 players takes 25% less damage. That's just a coding/mathematical fact of this game. But see, I can use numbers to actually make a point. Whereas you have to crutch on a crappy analogy to try and make yours.

Alright. What "point" exactly do you think you made? Just because you use some numbers (that are wrong btw) doesn't mean you suddenly have an argument.

Groups move stacked despite aoes. There are two main reasons why stacking is effective:
1) Avoiding single target damage: A group that is moving stacked is much less vulnerable to losing people to single target, as noone is easily targetable. Therefor all incoming single target damage is distributed equally to everyone in the group, meaning it is easy to outheal. Being more spread has a much higher risk of losing people to focussed single target damage.
2) More burst: When you are fighting outnumbered as a group, you generally want to let enemies stack up in a choke and then push them and kill as many as possible in a short time. Then you pull out again to avoid getting focussed by sieges, heal up and get resources back before you engage again. Being close together means that you have more aoes hitting the same targets and killing them.

When it comes to incoming aoe damage, it's only really a concern when you get pushed by another guild. Against pugs there generally isn't a lot of aoe damage hitting you, so it is no problem to outheal it. The only real source of high aoe damage comes from sieges, which already ignore the aoe cap (99% sure).

So, for fighting guilds it's generally better to spread out when they bomb your group. Especially mechanics like VD and Negate make stacking even less desireable. You mention how AoE caps reduce incoming damage by 50% (it's actually only 25% for target 7-30), however not being inside the area of the aoe means you take 100% less damage.

If you fight in a keep where you can't spread defensively, it's usually better to try and catch them and kill them.

If you hit a big group and can't kill them even tho you are hitting 30 people with your aoe, realistically you just don't have enough damage to kill them even without aoe caps. However if they would just run away from your damage so that you only hit 6 people with each aoe, you wouldn't kill them either.

That being said, I don't disagree about aoe caps being a bad mechanic. It simply doesn't have a big impact.