UPDATED: So... about those Crown Crates in light of Belgium's ruling that they are gambling

maboleth · November 2017

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Not quite. You do get the gems. And you do know that the premium award (mount) costs 400 gems. Comparing jacket to socks is like comparing mount to tri-stat potions.

For 100 pounds (figuratively) you will get much more than socks, maybe not quite reach for the jacket, but surely can trade gems for something lesser, like shirt or windstopper but still interesting.

Personally, I'd never buy the crates if the mount was the only thing seemed good enough. I knew that would be hard to get, so other rewards had to be interesting for me to participate. Like, okay, I didn't get this, but I'd be happy with that. You do know the awards in advance, so planning is also recommended. And if you sub, you also get 1500 crowns per month so, technically, you don't have to pay for crates at all (you pay for sub and all other extras), considering you play them moderately.

For me gambling is pure money waster, but after playing crown crates you always get some rewards (Kinder Surprise egg) that can be 'refined' to something even better. So it's not the same at all. The bad thing is, some people don't know when to stop if they didn't get exactly what they wanted.

Turelus · November 2017

maboleth wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Not quite. You do get the gems.

That defence fell apart when ZOS got greedy and added Radient Apex items.

Iselin · November 2017

Turelus wrote: »

From what I saw/watched so far wasn't this ONLY if progression was tired to the boxes (Battlefront II) and not just cosmetics?

If it's only for progression then nothing in ESO will change. Trying to find some actual news on it which isn't vague speculation and hyperbole is proving annoying though.

They weren't looking at just BF2 they were also looking at Overwatch which like ESO, is just cosmetic.

Betsararie · November 2017

So just because they're gambling (obviously they're gambling, didn't everyone already know that?), people want to see them banned.

The problem with that is they make up a significant amount of income for the game. There's also nothing inherently wrong with gambling.

That's why banning them is actually stupid, and you should just not use them if you don't like them. You can just ignore them. That's actually easier than trying to get them banned.

I would still prefer to see the game return to a pay 2 play format where you have to pay a subscription fee. I don't personally care if it forces some freeloaders out. That will be what is better for the game and it also would mean banning crown crates wouldn't matter as much. It actually would be better if all of that stuff was earnable in game.

LadyAstrum · November 2017

I'm on the "crown crates are gambling" side. You're using real money for the chance to "win" your desired prize. It's a practice I'd be happy to see gone. If we could use in-game gold to access them, fine, but to ask for money over a tiny chance to get what you want is asking people to gamble their money away.

Using the chocolate Kinder-type egg as a comparison would only make sense if every loot box had a guaranteed desireable item (mount / outfit), they don't. At least with a Kinder egg you know there is a toy inside, it might not be the one you want, but there is a toy. It's not empty inside, or has a vitamin pill instead. With crown crates, it's mostly undesired items. They are worse than SWTOR loot boxes, at least there, you got decent stuff.

I've purchased about 5 crown crates out of curiosity, and each time I wondered why people even bother with them. Waste of money.

idk · November 2017

As for USA, there is gambling that is permitted as long as it does not return cash but merely prizes. Some states may not permit it but many do.

I would doubt Zos would have any comment on the matter since it seems rather preliminary. It seems preliminary for Belgium to start with, let alone EU as a whole or anywhere else.

Drazkyth · November 2017

It's gambling, it's quite clear it's gambling.
I miss the days of everything having a set price in the crown store. Now you see old costumes that used to cost 500 crowns or less being sold for 50 crown gems which is just ridiculous.

Samadhi · November 2017

zyk wrote: »

craigr02 wrote: »

Interesting article, and video. Good to see, but bad for game developers who probably make a bunch of cash on llot boxes

It's actually good for game developers because they tend to love gaming and strongly dislike loot boxes. They did not get into the industry to design psychologically exploitative gambling products.

It's bad for unethical publishers who are willing to contort a product into any shape to make more money.

Sadly the greedy publishers impact how much time and money developers have behind them

And wallstreet is cheering for them and saying us gamers complain too much xD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgjA3oObVbI

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · November 2017

So you can't neither buy crates nor get arrested at night by the police (so that civilians can sleep peacefully). Belgium is so ahead of us all.

Tarum · November 2017

I would appreciate if they remove the crown crates and make all the purchasable goods a bit more expensive to compensate the money loss. The fact that crown crates are there - even if you don't buy them - is like the stale apple in the box.

Maybe Crown Crates are associated with Sheogorath, and that Kajiti is a Daedra worshipper...

I'm sorry for my English, some expressions will be cleary not correct.

Wayshuba · November 2017

Jurand80 wrote: »

Gambling is ok if you are 18+ in EU so by making the game 18+ they should be fine. Kids will buy it anyway. No one controls that.

Remember - the house always wins!

https://www.reddit.com/r/DBZDokkanBattle/comments/7d0dwq/confirmation_that_scamco_does_in_fact_rig_their/?st=ja0uq658&sh=7e6599f2

An AO (Adults Only) rating is death for a video games sales.

First, many services like Steam will not carry an AO game to start with. The same can be said for WalMart and others, they will not carry an AP title and a lot of console games are still sold as physical copies.

Second, many parents will not allow a child to by an AO game. Ratings require the title to list why a game carries the rating. I'm sure parents will jump at allowing their kids to buy a game that says "Contains Gambling"

Third, soon as you put "Contains Gambling" you are also going to be forbidden from even selling it in certain states or will fall under even further regulation on gambling. For example, the game may not be able to be available as a digital download so the sale and distribution will be better controlled.

Fourth, the video game industry has always been on shaky ground with the excuse of "you always get something so it isn't gambling". This has already been looked at by casinos many times over. What if they charged you $1 for slots and you at least always got a quarter back? Wouldn't this be the same thing?

Thing is, gambling laws apply to games of chance - period. However, in the US they currently define the types of gaming (slot machines, card games, roulette tables, etc.) that fall into the law and thus why video games have got around it.

At the end of the day, this has now got the attention of regulators around the world. EA is about to mess it up for the entire industry because of how far they took it. Loot crates, at this point, have their days numbered - at least as an in game purchase. I am sure the Activision patent application for manipulating gamers into spending will also come to light is just how these games are intentionally designed to be predatory as well. EA and Activision have built their entire businesses around these loot boxes (of the $5 billion in Activision revenue last year just over $3 billion was from loot crates) and they are about to take an extremely hard fall if regulation is put in place making loot crates gambling. This is why shareholders got very nervous with EA - they know that more than half their revenue is from "loot crates". Pretty tough pill to swallow as Activision and EA could end up losing a massive portion of their revenue now.

Finally, as for ZoS and Crown Crates. While I think they make a little money from them, they have never been the focus of how they sell of the Crown Store. Far more is offered in direct sale purchases than having their store centered around them. So I feel, if they had to be removed, it wouldn't have that big and impact on ZoS.

Streega · November 2017

Malnutrition wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling.

When I was a kid, we'd go to the local carnival and I'd always go to the booth with the grab bags. Plain paper sack, which held one of the multitude of items they had in the rotation. You pay a fee and grab a bag and you either got something you felt was neat or crap. So it was up to you if you wanted to buy another surprise grab bag. That is not gambling. You're always getting something for your money regardless of whether it ends up being pretty neat or crap.

It may be a gamble (copy pasta: take risky action in the hope of a desired result) but it is not gambling in the sense that you're risking money for a financial gain.

The problem is, you can't compare a carnival lottery with the Crown Crates. First, to organise a lottery you need a to report it to Customs Office; if the total value of rewards exceeds around 1000 EUR you need a permit and then to pay the taxes; lottery cannot be "constant", it has to be a time limited event. And so on.
Crown Crates/loot boxes are online gambling, and that's illegal in my country unless the company is registered here and has proper permits (I bet ZOS does not) - it's just nobody bothers to investigate it. Well, the changes are coming...

SisterGoat · November 2017

Whether it's gambling or not is something the legislators need to decide on. For now, micro-transactions for RNG are legal for minors. Changing the rating of the game from M to A isn't going to help, but they do need to have some kind of regulations in place for loot boxes. At least they should tell what the rates are, by law.

OldManJim · November 2017

To me, the crown crates are a game of chance for a guaranteed "reward" (ie lucky dip), rather than traditional gambling where there is no necessary reward (ie lottery / scratch card).

Still doesn't mean I like them though. They're a predatory item, designed to entice players to buy more, just to get that "special costume".

To use a CCG analogy, imagine buying a pack of magic cards, you open them to find 2 basic lands you can keep, then being forced to sell the other 8 common cards that you already own back to the store for 5 cents.

At least with physical items like Magic or Pokémon cards, you can trade them, or sell them. With the junk from crown crates, you're stuck selling them back to ZOS for next to nothing (gems).

And ZOS giving away 3 boxes this weekend is really no different than your local crack seller giving samples to a new customer. They're trying to get you hooked.

For shame ZOS.

EDIT: Edited for clarification.

Wayshuba · November 2017

Blanco wrote: »

So just because they're gambling (obviously they're gambling, didn't everyone already know that?), people want to see them banned.

The problem with that is they make up a significant amount of income for the game. There's also nothing inherently wrong with gambling.

That's why banning them is actually stupid, and you should just not use them if you don't like them. You can just ignore them. That's actually easier than trying to get them banned.

I would still prefer to see the game return to a pay 2 play format where you have to pay a subscription fee. I don't personally care if it forces some freeloaders out. That will be what is better for the game and it also would mean banning crown crates wouldn't matter as much. It actually would be better if all of that stuff was earnable in game.

This is a weak argument and always has been. The volume games sell in today more than does that. Take BF2 for example. $40-$50 million in development. EA estimates (prior to the fiasco) were that it would sell 15 million copies. At $60, that is $900 million in revenue. Probably, more than likely topping $1 billion when you include Collector's Editions and others. That is one heck of a return on investment.

Loot crates are about doing the least amount of work as possible and using predatory tactics to extract even more revenue based on people's emotional ties to a game. That is technically defined as "exploitation".

Mark my words, the loot crate bonanza is coming to an end and the entire industry is about to take a huge hit as a result. Then again, thanks to companies like EA and Activision, they have given the industry a reputation as a digital gambling outlet rather than making games.

maboleth · November 2017

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Not quite. You do get the gems.

That defence fell apart when ZOS got greedy and added Radient Apex items.

What are radiant apex items? Didn't know that at all.

SisterGoat · November 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGpjhbVW6Ao

Please watch this video as it has to do with our discussion.

Mureel · November 2017

randomkeyhits wrote: »

Malnutrition wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling.

When I was a kid, we'd go to the local carnival and I'd always go to the booth with the grab bags. Plain paper sack, which held one of the multitude of items they had in the rotation. You pay a fee and grab a bag and you either got something you felt was neat or crap. So it was up to you if you wanted to buy another surprise grab bag. That is not gambling. You're always getting something for your money regardless of whether it ends up being pretty neat or crap.

It may be a gamble (copy pasta: take risky action in the hope of a desired result) but it is not gambling in the sense that you're risking money for a financial gain.

Getting stuff does not mean that its not gambling. It is. Very much so.

Dictionary definition of gambling "take risky action in the hope of a desired result."

Now if you are happy with getting the potions then its a cheap and successful gamble, good on you.

If you are after an apex mount or a specific reward then it can become a very expensive or unsuccessful gamble, bad luck for you.

Whether cheap or expensive, successful or not, it is still gambling

LOL! How is this game doing that?

meh i was going to write a bunch of stuff about this again - but whatever.

Keep thinking that it's everyone else's fault if someone makes bad choices for nothing more than fluff and then cries when they didn't get the fluff.

There's no requirement to buy these and no reason to, either.

Turelus · November 2017

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Not quite. You do get the gems.

That defence fell apart when ZOS got greedy and added Radient Apex items.

What are radiant apex items? Didn't know that at all.

@maboleth they're the new top tier mounts and the sweetroll housing item. They've been in the last season, current season and will be in next.
They can't be purchased for gems (don't show up in the gems buying area) meaning the only way to get them is to keep buying crates.
One member of our community made a thread that they opened over 1,000 crates and didn't get the item they wanted still.

MLGProPlayer · November 2017

I don't like loot boxes, but I don't care if they're there as long as the rewards are purely cosmetic. I've never bought a loot box in any game and don't plan to ever buy one.

The real problems arise when the loot boxes contain P2W items (like in Battlefront 2).

Now, if this ruling leads to a full-out ban of loot boxes on the European market, I'd be ecstatic. But I don't think it will. I can see them requiring an 18+ rating on games that require loot boxes, but that won't really accomplish anything as parents will still buy these games for their kids.

MLGProPlayer · November 2017

OldManJim wrote: »

To me, the crown crates are more "pay real money for a game of chance" than traditional gambling ie for the chance of a monetary reward.

You just said the same thing twice. The rewards in a game of chance have value to the player, the same way the monetary reward in traditional gambling has value (otherwise, you wouldn't play the game). Whether the reward is monetary or not is irrelevant.

maboleth · November 2017

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Not quite. You do get the gems.

That defence fell apart when ZOS got greedy and added Radient Apex items.

What are radiant apex items? Didn't know that at all.

@maboleth they're the new top tier mounts and the sweetroll housing item. They've been in the last season, current season and will be in next.
They can't be purchased for gems (don't show up in the gems buying area) meaning the only way to get them is to keep buying crates.
One member of our community made a thread that they opened over 1,000 crates and didn't get the item they wanted still.

Thanks Turelus. Yeah, I agree, that's too much. Probably reserved to whales though. Who in their own sane mind would want to invest hundreds, even thousands of euros for something like this?

Alchemical · November 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I don't like loot boxes, but I don't care if they're there as long as the rewards are purely cosmetic. I've never bought a loot box in any game and don't plan to ever buy one.

The real problems arise when the loot boxes contain P2W items (like in Battlefront 2).

Now, if this ruling leads to a full-out ban of loot boxes on the European market, I'd be ecstatic. But I don't think it will. I can see them requiring an 18+ rating on games that require loot boxes, but that won't really accomplish anything as parents will still buy these games for their kids.

If it comes to America it will likely bump the rating from Mature to Adults Only largely fro the reason Mature games can be bought by anyone who is 17 but you cannot enter a casino unless you are 18 (or 21 in some states). And being AO means you can't sell your game at the vast majority of retailers, like someone already said. Which means you are going to make a lot less money than if you just didn't include them in the first place.

zaria · November 2017

Highstake wrote: »

This box thing is a double-edged sword. It looks lika kinda gambling, yes, but rather than other p2w games, we should say "God bless u ZOS, for not making the boxes and the microtransactions as the base of everything", they are just and addtional trivial part of the game.
ZOS didnt pack anything really useful inside those boxes (they are mostly skins, mounts, etc) to make a big difference in both pve or pvp. Yet. Shhhhhh....

They are unlikely to, they know that P2W is pretty much slaughtering the goose who lay golden eggs.
Not all company is EA level of "evil greedy stupid" Standard EA practice has been to buy up companies with successful franchises, then kill the company after the next game flops because EA demanded it out to door too fast an cheap.

Now SW:BF is likely to have an far higher turnover rate and shorter lifespan than a MMO so P2W might well make economical sense. Now I'm not sure how the 4000 hour grinding to get all the unlocks is. Is it like getting cp690 in ESO or is it more unlocking all the achievements.

Turelus · November 2017

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Not quite. You do get the gems.

That defence fell apart when ZOS got greedy and added Radient Apex items.

What are radiant apex items? Didn't know that at all.

maboleth they're the new top tier mounts and the sweetroll housing item. They've been in the last season, current season and will be in next.
They can't be purchased for gems (don't show up in the gems buying area) meaning the only way to get them is to keep buying crates.
One member of our community made a thread that they opened over 1,000 crates and didn't get the item they wanted still.

Thanks Turelus. Yeah, I agree, that's too much. Probably reserved to whales though. Who in their own sane mind would want to invest hundreds, even thousands of euros for something like this?

I purchased a second pack because "maybe one more try" then stopped. They made extra off of me due to this.

I don't like blaming it all on "whales" because it's not the fault of the consumer and we should stop blaming one another or saying it's the fault of the weak. Crates from their start (in all games) have been designed around making us the consumer pay more money than we want.

Yes we can not buy anything, but they could also be honest and respectful and just list everything as stand alone purchases which don't mean those of us with money we want to spend (without gambling) can actually have items we desire again.

I would throw £25 at ZOS for the Plague Horse mount, that's an absurd amount of money for a mount but I would do that if I could get the mount I wanted. However in the current form I am not going to spend £1,000 on the chance of a mount.

The sooner these boxes stop in the industry the better.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO · November 2017

Turelus wrote: »

The sooner these boxes stop in the industry the better.

The sooner these boxes stop, the industry collapses.

You should understand it. It's not only the mount that is cool. It's its limited availability that makes it so desirable. What's the point of showing off something if everyone can have it. I have only seen a couple of plague horses and seches so far. One is mine. I am not a huge fan of it to be honest, but I love people whispering me where did you get it? Bla bla bla. Yea because you can't have them with gems and they do not even appear in the store.

It's pure gambling, yes. You can't even make the math to see how much it would cost you buying crates and converting the drops to gems.

Would I buy the plague horse or the frost senche with gems? No. But it feels great so see that practically none has them.

Mureel · November 2017

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Not quite. You do get the gems.

That defence fell apart when ZOS got greedy and added Radient Apex items.

What are radiant apex items? Didn't know that at all.

maboleth they're the new top tier mounts and the sweetroll housing item. They've been in the last season, current season and will be in next.
They can't be purchased for gems (don't show up in the gems buying area) meaning the only way to get them is to keep buying crates.
One member of our community made a thread that they opened over 1,000 crates and didn't get the item they wanted still.

Thanks Turelus. Yeah, I agree, that's too much. Probably reserved to whales though. Who in their own sane mind would want to invest hundreds, even thousands of euros for something like this?

I purchased a second pack because "maybe one more try" then stopped. They made extra off of me due to this.

I don't like blaming it all on "whales" because it's not the fault of the consumer and we should stop blaming one another or saying it's the fault of the weak. Crates from their start (in all games) have been designed around making us the consumer pay more money than we want.

Yes we can not buy anything, but they could also be honest and respectful and just list everything as stand alone purchases which don't mean those of us with money we want to spend (without gambling) can actually have items we desire again.

I would throw £25 at ZOS for the Plague Horse mount, that's an absurd amount of money for a mount but I would do that if I could get the mount I wanted. However in the current form I am not going to spend £1,000 on the chance of a mount.

The sooner these boxes stop in the industry the better.

Yes it absolutely is your fault. You spent the money. No one made you do that except you wanted some rare cosmetic fluff and didn't get it and then spent yet more money for possibility of fluff - that was you and no one else.

People blaming everyone else for their own choices is what makes everything a mess.

Alchemical · November 2017

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The sooner these boxes stop in the industry the better.

The sooner these boxes stop, the industry collapses.

You should understand it. It's not only the mount that is cool. It's its limited availability that makes it so desirable. What's the point of showing off something if everyone can have it. I have only seen a couple of plague horses and seches so far. One is mine. I am not a huge fan of it to be honest, but I love people whispering me where did you get it? Bla bla bla. Yea because you can't have them with gems and they do not even appear in the store.

It's pure gambling, yes. You can't even make the math to see how much it would cost you buying crates and converting the drops to gems.

Would I buy the plague horse or the frost senche with gems? No. But it feels great so see that practically none has them.

So the fact you're petty means the industry is gonna collapse? lmao

Turelus · November 2017

Mureel wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Can you imagine going into Zara and trying to buy a jacket for £100.

The worker then says okay pick a number between 1 and 20.

You pick 18...

Worker: Ah, the number is 6. So we'll give you a pair of socks and if you want to try for the jacket again, its £100.

Not quite. You do get the gems.

That defence fell apart when ZOS got greedy and added Radient Apex items.

What are radiant apex items? Didn't know that at all.

maboleth they're the new top tier mounts and the sweetroll housing item. They've been in the last season, current season and will be in next.
They can't be purchased for gems (don't show up in the gems buying area) meaning the only way to get them is to keep buying crates.
One member of our community made a thread that they opened over 1,000 crates and didn't get the item they wanted still.

Thanks Turelus. Yeah, I agree, that's too much. Probably reserved to whales though. Who in their own sane mind would want to invest hundreds, even thousands of euros for something like this?

I purchased a second pack because "maybe one more try" then stopped. They made extra off of me due to this.

I don't like blaming it all on "whales" because it's not the fault of the consumer and we should stop blaming one another or saying it's the fault of the weak. Crates from their start (in all games) have been designed around making us the consumer pay more money than we want.

Yes we can not buy anything, but they could also be honest and respectful and just list everything as stand alone purchases which don't mean those of us with money we want to spend (without gambling) can actually have items we desire again.

I would throw £25 at ZOS for the Plague Horse mount, that's an absurd amount of money for a mount but I would do that if I could get the mount I wanted. However in the current form I am not going to spend £1,000 on the chance of a mount.

The sooner these boxes stop in the industry the better.

Yes it absolutely is your fault. You spent the money. No one made you do that except you wanted some rare cosmetic fluff and didn't get it and then spent yet more money for possibility of fluff - that was you and no one else.

People blaming everyone else for their own choices is what makes everything a mess.

I admit my own faults. However let's stop this BS where we blame each other and say it's the fault of the weak willed.

The people who make these crates, the companies who push them because they know full well it will have that effect on the weak willed are the ones who are at fault.

But no, it's easier to pretend we're better than others and blame each other whilst the big companies continue to exploit us you're right.

Iselin · November 2017

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

The sooner these boxes stop in the industry the better.

The sooner these boxes stop, the industry collapses.

A bit melodramatic, don't you think?

I don't know how old you are but I remember a vital industry long before these became a thing. Monthly subs used to do the trick.

But then, that was before the whole industry became controlled by a bunch of greedy old men who don't even play games. Maybe THAT industry needs to collapse so we can get back to games by gamers for gamers... just a thought.