Response to the Veteran Hard Mode Asylum Sanctorium Trial Exploit - Nov. 10

ManwithBeard9

The_Brosteen wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

itzTJ wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI&t=431s

I really think you guys should reconsider perma bans for 1st time offenders. I mean put yourself in these peoples position, you are doing a trial and stumble on a way to just kill the bosses without dying.. YES this is wrong, YES this is stupid, but malicious? I dont think so..

These guys made a stupid decision, yes i get that. But for you to ban a 1st time offender for an IN GAME EXPLOIT, not even cheat engine or an outside program, is just terrible. I mean they stumbled onto it in game. Obviously they should have reported it and not done the trial but they didnt, yes it was wrong, but a perma ban is so harsh! I Know you guys want to make a statement because of the community mob that is upset, but you should take your stand against outside program hacks and cheats!! Not 1st time offenders using an exploit they stumbled onto a COUPLE days after the update..

Idk, i linked the video above from fengrush because this is a similar situation.. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom you guys, in the past, have unbanned people for using outside cheats on PC.. But yet you say you will NOT look at an appeal for these guys on console? Why? Idk i just think if you guys try to put yourself in these peoples situation you will see that they were NOT malicious like people who have used cheats and been unbanned... Yes they were stupid, but not malicious. You guys are to quick to throw around perma bans because people are upset.. You could give them a 1 month ban and strip their stuff from the trial... You could make it so they could never get the skin or weapons again.. Hell, you could perma ban the character they were on, with all there trial gear, and give them a 1 month account ban.. These are things that you could do instead of PERMA BANNING 1st time offenders.. People spend thousands of hours and dollars on this game i just think the least you can do is give them 1 strike and their out..

People should watch that video, its a very similar situation.. Idk, i guess i just feel bad for these people because everyone makes stupid mistakes.. These guys didnt get an outside program to cheat at the game, they found a glitch and made a stupid call to not report it but a perma ban is to harsh, with no appeal, especially considering the past.. Also, this is scary to me because there have been exploits in the past, like keep jumping, that were very vague if it was an exploit.. The fact that they perma ban for exploits means that anyone could get caught up in an "exploit" one day and be perma banned..

We hear you, @itzTJ, and we didn't make this decision lightly. This particular exploit and the repercussions were particularly severe (unlocking an extremely difficult-to-get achievement and reward.) We also recognize that we have gone too easy on cheaters/exploiters in the past. (But not bots - bots get nuked on the first offense.) We're taking a stance to crack down harder, especially when the exploit is as deliberate and severe as this one was.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

You say you crack down on bots but over the past two weeks I have reported the same group of players botting in deeshan about 7 times. Nothing. It is not hard to look into these reports, you can simply travel to these players and watch them for a few minutes. Or you can look at their logs and see that their actions resemble botting behavior.

If you aren't serious about these things you might as well overturn these perma bans, it's not fair to those players if zos is not going to follow through with what is said in all instances.

I fear that those perma bans were really just a move for some positive perception points because this was during the height of the loading screen issues. If nothing is continually done about these bots then that theory starts to make more and more sense.

Dont create new tickets for the same exact bots. Follow up with support for the same exact incident. PErma-bans for exploits have nothing to do with bots. Botting is an issue where they need to find where the bot accounts are originating from and find a way to block them from even getting into the game.

StackonClown

StackonClown wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We completed the fix for this exploit on all servers this morning. As promised, we also checked for anyone who used this exploit over the weekend and have banned additional accounts. We have banned an additional 51 accounts for abusing this exploit as of today, for a total of 85 accounts.

Regarding the questions about botters and other types of cheaters, our Support team runs checks and *dishes out bans daily*. Your in-game reports greatly help us identify botters and cheaters, so please keep them coming. In cases where you believe someone is cheating in PvP (not botting), submitting a video of the behavior is also very helpful. We always investigate based on the reports we receive. If you have names of players who you believe are botting or cheating in order to mass-farm rare items, please be sure to report them in-game (again, screenshots are helpful.)

Really??

Then please provide details and numbers and reasons for 'dishes out bans daily'!

How about cheat engine? How many people are getting banned? Apparently your systems can detect cheat engine, so noone needs to report it, right ?

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Given its been 6 weeks since your lengthy and detailed description about this topic, is there any further update on cheating and exploiting? A lot of people including me assumed that even if the Asylum ban was specifically 'cheered' by some self proclaimed experts and streamers, we would start getting regular updates about bans you are putting in place regardless of who reports them.... Given 6 weeks has past, unless I missed something, dissapointingly I dont see any new threads about what you are all doing on this topic - Thanks!

Lukums1

This is a good course of action!!! However, I'm just confused:

IMO...

People have abused glitches and bugs like this previously in vmol hm with videos ( got banned ) then un-banned.

I don't see the difference.

Keep in mind I don't play ESO really these days and I'm not a friend of anyone that DID get banned..

Just find it unusual you ban some not others...? weird.

The_Brosteen

StackonClown wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We completed the fix for this exploit on all servers this morning. As promised, we also checked for anyone who used this exploit over the weekend and have banned additional accounts. We have banned an additional 51 accounts for abusing this exploit as of today, for a total of 85 accounts.

Regarding the questions about botters and other types of cheaters, our Support team runs checks and *dishes out bans daily*. Your in-game reports greatly help us identify botters and cheaters, so please keep them coming. In cases where you believe someone is cheating in PvP (not botting), submitting a video of the behavior is also very helpful. We always investigate based on the reports we receive. If you have names of players who you believe are botting or cheating in order to mass-farm rare items, please be sure to report them in-game (again, screenshots are helpful.)

Really??

Then please provide details and numbers and reasons for 'dishes out bans daily'!

How about cheat engine? How many people are getting banned? Apparently your systems can detect cheat engine, so noone needs to report it, right ?

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Given its been 6 weeks since your lengthy and detailed description about this topic, is there any further update on cheating and exploiting? A lot of people including me assumed that even if the Asylum ban was specifically 'cheered' by some self proclaimed experts and streamers, we would start getting regular updates about bans you are putting in place regardless of who reports them.... Given 6 weeks has past, unless I missed something, dissapointingly I dont see any new threads about what you are all doing on this topic - Thanks!

Don't get your hopes up, it seems like it was done as a PR maneuver trying to save face for the console loading screen fiasco and nothing more. I welcome the opportunity to be proven wrong but I dont see any sign to the contrary while evidence for this theory keeps piling up.

lefler90

All those banned individuals have already returned to the game and grinded to cap CP. This ban did nothing. Until ZoS figures out a way to ban IP addresses, there’s no point in banning individuals to begin with.

Destruent

lefler90 wrote: »

All those banned individuals have already returned to the game and grinded to cap CP. This ban did nothing. Until ZoS figures out a way to ban IP addresses, there’s no point in banning individuals to begin with.

you know you get a new IP every 1..2 days?

Tetrafy

Why not just fix the exploit?

BadSerpico

It’s part of the selective outrage. Just look at the dragon bones imperial city exploit bans. Most are getting temp bans fir first infraction. It shows there is no actual system or criteria. So it’s best not to play on release week less you risk getting banned

VaranisArano

BadSerpico wrote: »

It’s part of the selective outrage. Just look at the dragon bones imperial city exploit bans. Most are getting temp bans fir first infraction. It shows there is no actual system or criteria. So it’s best not to play on release week less you risk getting banned

So since the thread on the IC bans was closed and we can't argue there anymore, you felt the need to drag that over here?

BadSerpico

VaranisArano wrote: »

BadSerpico wrote: »

It’s part of the selective outrage. Just look at the dragon bones imperial city exploit bans. Most are getting temp bans fir first infraction. It shows there is no actual system or criteria. So it’s best not to play on release week less you risk getting banned

So since the thread on the IC bans was closed and we can't argue there anymore, you felt the need to drag that over here?

Yes

Stinkyremy

lynog85 wrote: »

Perma bans way too harsh imo. Zos are releasing unfinished content with these exploits only being possible because of THEM. I hope all accounts who done this get it overturned.

I actually agree with this
Release content, charge players for said content despite originally saying there was never gonna be a paywall. Release said content without fully testing it, releasing a bugged content, players play the content they paid for...gets their entire accounts banned because of half assed bug testing.
It's like bethesda devs are working at ZOS.

A long ban, even 6 months to a year would have been fine, a way to dissuade people from doing such exploits. Taking away their achievements, and maybe even permanently locking out their ability to get the achievemnets would be adequate, but destroying peoples years of work, money spent and time invested just because ZOS are incompetent at bug testing is unfair.
It's not like they created bugs or hacks to break the work ZOS did on creating the content.

For example, if I found a node that instantly respawned, I would have to be an idiot to not sit their farming it forever rather than running around everywhere farming. is that my thought ZOS made a mistake that I am taking advantage of to lessen the trivial grind....

VaranisArano

Stinkyremy wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Perma bans way too harsh imo. Zos are releasing unfinished content with these exploits only being possible because of THEM. I hope all accounts who done this get it overturned.

I actually agree with this
Release content, charge players for said content despite originally saying there was never gonna be a paywall. Release said content without fully testing it, releasing a bugged content, players play the content they paid for...gets their entire accounts banned because of half assed bug testing.
It's like bethesda devs are working at ZOS.

A long ban, even 6 months to a year would have been fine, a way to dissuade people from doing such exploits. Taking away their achievements, and maybe even permanently locking out their ability to get the achievemnets would be adequate, but destroying peoples years of work, money spent and time invested just because ZOS are incompetent at bug testing is unfair.
It's not like they created bugs or hacks to break the work ZOS did on creating the content.

For example, if I found a node that instantly respawned, I would have to be an idiot to not sit their farming it forever rather than running around everywhere farming. is that my thought ZOS made a mistake that I am taking advantage of to lessen the trivial grind....

I mean, its not like these people decided they were going to "fight" ZOS' newest trial by standing in a certain place and hitting the boss with certain skills so that the boss didn't fight back, it just ...happened, I guess. Multiple times, offered runs like that in zone chat, you know, business as usual.

/sarcasm

(The TOS and Code of Conduct you agree to when you play the game are pretty clear that you agreed to not take advantage of any mistakes, bugs, or glitches that you find in the game. Instead, you are required to report them and stop using them. But if you value your word so little that you would take advantage of ZOS' mistakes, whether a trial glitch or a respawning node, well, you deserve the consequences of breaking the TOS and COC you agreed to.)

BadSerpico

VaranisArano wrote: »

Stinkyremy wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Perma bans way too harsh imo. Zos are releasing unfinished content with these exploits only being possible because of THEM. I hope all accounts who done this get it overturned.

I actually agree with this
Release content, charge players for said content despite originally saying there was never gonna be a paywall. Release said content without fully testing it, releasing a bugged content, players play the content they paid for...gets their entire accounts banned because of half assed bug testing.
It's like bethesda devs are working at ZOS.

A long ban, even 6 months to a year would have been fine, a way to dissuade people from doing such exploits. Taking away their achievements, and maybe even permanently locking out their ability to get the achievemnets would be adequate, but destroying peoples years of work, money spent and time invested just because ZOS are incompetent at bug testing is unfair.
It's not like they created bugs or hacks to break the work ZOS did on creating the content.

For example, if I found a node that instantly respawned, I would have to be an idiot to not sit their farming it forever rather than running around everywhere farming. is that my thought ZOS made a mistake that I am taking advantage of to lessen the trivial grind....

I mean, its not like these people decided they were going to "fight" ZOS' newest trial by standing in a certain place and hitting the boss with certain skills so that the boss didn't fight back, it just ...happened, I guess. Multiple times, offered runs like that in zone chat, you know, business as usual.

/sarcasm

(The TOS and Code of Conduct you agree to when you play the game are pretty clear that you agreed to not take advantage of any mistakes, bugs, or glitches that you find in the game. Instead, you are required to report them and stop using them. But if you value your word so little that you would take advantage of ZOS' mistakes, whether a trial glitch or a respawning node, well, you deserve the consequences of breaking the TOS and COC you agreed to.)

There is no standard or criteria for any type of ban. It’s subjective and based on player base outrage or emotion probably

DPShiro

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Recently, a small number of players discovered a way to kill Saint Olms + 2 (Hard mode in Veteran Asylum Sanctorium) from safely outside his room where he could not attack them. This is not only unintended and an exploit, but it cheapens the time and work put in by players who have legitimately beat this fight and earn a very difficult achievement and reward. As a result, we have permanently banned all players – 34 accounts in all – who used the exploit to complete the kill and earn the special achievement and skin in this way. We will not be considering overturns for these account bans. They are permanent and final.

We are working on a fix for this exploit, but we will not be able to deploy it until Monday at the earliest. We will be watching things closely over the weekend. After we deploy the fix on Monday, we will do another audit of kills for this fight. Be warned: we will permanently ban any additional players who use the exploit over the weekend.

I sincerely hope that this new approach and enforcement still applies.

karekiz

I AM BACK FROM THE DEAD.

BadSerpico

karekiz wrote: »

I AM BACK FROM THE DEAD.

Clap

BadSerpico

DPShiro wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Recently, a small number of players discovered a way to kill Saint Olms + 2 (Hard mode in Veteran Asylum Sanctorium) from safely outside his room where he could not attack them. This is not only unintended and an exploit, but it cheapens the time and work put in by players who have legitimately beat this fight and earn a very difficult achievement and reward. As a result, we have permanently banned all players – 34 accounts in all – who used the exploit to complete the kill and earn the special achievement and skin in this way. We will not be considering overturns for these account bans. They are permanent and final.

We are working on a fix for this exploit, but we will not be able to deploy it until Monday at the earliest. We will be watching things closely over the weekend. After we deploy the fix on Monday, we will do another audit of kills for this fight. Be warned: we will permanently ban any additional players who use the exploit over the weekend.

I sincerely hope that this new approach and enforcement still applies.

In certainly hop DLC is bug free!

BadSerpico

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Recently, a small number of players discovered a way to kill Saint Olms + 2 (Hard mode in Veteran Asylum Sanctorium) from safely outside his room where he could not attack them. This is not only unintended and an exploit, but it cheapens the time and work put in by players who have legitimately beat this fight and earn a very difficult achievement and reward. As a result, we have permanently banned all players – 34 accounts in all – who used the exploit to complete the kill and earn the special achievement and skin in this way. We will not be considering overturns for these account bans. They are permanent and final.

We are working on a fix for this exploit, but we will not be able to deploy it until Monday at the earliest. We will be watching things closely over the weekend. After we deploy the fix on Monday, we will do another audit of kills for this fight. Be warned: we will permanently ban any additional players who use the exploit over the weekend.

Players are glitching the VAS skin again On XBOX1 NA and Selling runs for skin I hope you take measure and look at the data with permanent bans following like you did in the beginning

BadSerpico

It going to post GT obviously but like too know what actions are being taken to cast the net on the next group of exploiters @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The_Brosteen

BadSerpico wrote: »

It going to post GT obviously but like too know what actions are being taken to cast the net on the next group of exploiters @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Probably nothing unless summerset has a botched release like clockwork city did. That bad press was the main reason behind the perma bans that happened with the first round of of VAS exploits.

The only consistency is the inconsistency with these things. Prove me wrong.

BadSerpico

The_Brosteen wrote: »

BadSerpico wrote: »

It going to post GT obviously but like too know what actions are being taken to cast the net on the next group of exploiters @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Probably nothing unless summerset has a botched release like clockwork city did. That bad press was the main reason behind the perma bans that happened with the first round of of VAS exploits.

The only consistency is the inconsistency with these things. Prove me wrong.

Sadly I would have to agree

DPShiro

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

. This particular exploit and the repercussions were particularly severe (unlocking an extremely difficult-to-get achievement and reward.) We also recognize that we have gone too easy on cheaters/exploiters in the past. (But not bots - bots get nuked on the first offense.) We're taking a stance to crack down harder, especially when the exploit is as deliberate and severe as this one was.

This statement last time is crystal clear, and I fully expect the same punishments and actions to be taken this time.

If this isn’t handled, myself, and many others are finally calling it and quitting.

I personally contacted @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert & @ZOS_Finn almost 2 weeks ago with detailed information about this issue, but I was pretty much ignored.
And now it’s escalated (like I said) and might become the next vMoL epidemic and unstoppable if you don’t take action asap.

StackonClown

The original set of bans at the start of this thread occurred since a number of self-proclaimed Yotube princesses were crying crocodile tears and magically this thread appeared ?!

Where are those people now making the same complaints?? Oh thats right, they dont care any more LOL and seems Zenny doesnt either.

if this is indeed occurring, as it likely is due to the number of threads that have sprung up, I would expect bans AND A THREAD ANNOUNCING THE BANS just like this one.

Or does Zenny only make these types of threads if so called 'personalities' of the game with 'world first brat' videos complain??
That was my point earlier in this thread and alarmingly it seems I made a reasonable deduction

StackonClown

StackonClown wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Recently, a small number of players discovered a way to kill Saint Olms + 2 (Hard mode in Veteran Asylum Sanctorium) from safely outside his room where he could not attack them. This is not only unintended and an exploit, but it cheapens the time and work put in by players who have legitimately beat this fight and earn a very difficult achievement and reward. As a result, we have permanently banned all players – 34 accounts in all – who used the exploit to complete the kill and earn the special achievement and skin in this way. We will not be considering overturns for these account bans. They are permanent and final.

We are working on a fix for this exploit, but we will not be able to deploy it until Monday at the earliest. We will be watching things closely over the weekend. After we deploy the fix on Monday, we will do another audit of kills for this fight. Be warned: we will permanently ban any additional players who use the exploit over the weekend.

Hi @ZOS_JessicaFolsom - great job!

Wasnt even aware of this exploit and probably 99.9% of the player base wasnt but great to see you were able to respond to whoever reported this so swiftly and unequivocally. and now you will be 'watching over the weekend' - wow! Can you please watch out for other cheating so closely also?. Now the people that got the skin through the normal way can wear it happily!

Considering some of the gleeful updates in this thread, it seems there are a small number of small players who are now delighting in your actions, so bravo.

Anyways... Since you have shown great transparency in naming a precise number of accounts that were banned for this so far, 34 can you:

>>Please provide a similar update for Cheat Engine?<<

How many players are being banned for using Cheat Engine?
I sincerely hope its more than zero, can you please give us a precise number for 2017?

I dare say more players care about Cheat Engine detection and banning than the above skin exploit, but I could be wrong.

Looking forward to a really detailed update about overall cheating and not just specific examples like this skin (need to look it up when i get around to it - Skins are meh for me, sry)

Also, there is an overall cheating thread that has been open for 17 months with no input from @ZOS for a really long time . Any reason why that thread is being essentially ignored but such dramatic urgency is being placed on things like this skin?

Hi Zenny - any update on the above ?

ed7878

I think there are tons of other ways to look at this. My two cents. No need for a reply.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Recently, a small number of players discovered a way to kill Saint Olms + 2 (Hard mode in Veteran Asylum Sanctorium) from safely outside his room where he could not attack them. This is not only unintended and an exploit, but it cheapens the time and work put in by players who have legitimately beat this fight and earn a very difficult achievement and reward.

If your point is that deliberate use of an exploit devalues the achievement of other player who've done it the right way, I could only agree with this if there was no way for devs to revoke the associated rewards.

However, if you can't revoke rewards, that just strikes me as a second flaw in game design - the first being the exploit existing at all, and the second being a lack of dev control over user accounts. This ought to reduce the severity of the penalty because they're significant problems in game design that the devs created and that only the devs can fix, and they have in turn led to problems in customer service. So there's some allotment of responsibility there purely for ZOS.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

As a result, we have permanently banned all players – 34 accounts in all – who used the exploit to complete the kill and earn the special achievement and skin in this way. We will not be considering overturns for these account bans. They are permanent and final.

I think this is overkill because of the nature of an MMO; it's is a combination of a game (entertainment, leisure, even trite) and almost invariably a huge time and money sink (at the pleasure of ZOS because that's where the money is, which makes sense and is a good thing). Unfortunately, this makes a permanent account ban analogous to insisting that someone make additional 50-dollar payments on their car for a year because you caught them cheating at Monopoly. I have no idea how you'd address that, but it makes sense. So there's a solid argument by analogy there to be biased against permanent account bans for a lot of offenses, I reckon.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We are working on a fix for this exploit, but we will not be able to deploy it until Monday at the earliest. We will be watching things closely over the weekend. After we deploy the fix on Monday, we will do another audit of kills for this fight. Be warned: we will permanently ban any additional players who use the exploit over the weekend.

This last part, now that I'm reading it again, makes me not want to even write this post because I'm concerned about making the wrong person angry and getting a suspension or even banned. I looked over the user agreement and I don't think anything I've written here violates that, however.

If perma bans for using exploits are necessary because exploits are a serious threat to your business and your bottom line, that's a perfectly legitimate point and anybody who doesn't get it probably doesn't have to pay their own bills. Otherwise, this whole thing makes me wrinkle my nose. I've played since beta and it's the first time I've really disagreed with where y'all are coming from in terms of customer service. I think you all are great and always super cool and positive in live streams so I was really surprised at this.

DoctorESO

ed7878 wrote: »

I think there are tons of other ways to look at this. My two cents. No need for a reply.

When you write a message to ZOS, there's no need to put "no need for a reply." They know that and follow that!

VaranisArano

Just a reminder, there's been an official comment here, May 21st: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5153949#Comment_5153949

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We've been keeping a close eye on the chatter surrounding the Veteran Asylum Sanctorium exploit. We did have a fix go out for this in today's PC patch, and it will be fixed in the Update 18 patch for console in a couple weeks. Unfortunately due to the type of fix this is, the scheduling we have for certification, plus a number of other factors, this cannot be hotfixed. In the meantime, we are generating logs of everyone who may be taking advantage of this exploit, and we do plan to action those accounts accordingly.

Remember, if you come across what appears to be an exploit, please stop doing what you're doing and reach out to a staff member with details.

ed7878

VaranisArano wrote: »

Just a reminder, there's been an official comment here, May 21st: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5153949#Comment_5153949

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We've been keeping a close eye on the chatter surrounding the Veteran Asylum Sanctorium exploit. We did have a fix go out for this in today's PC patch, and it will be fixed in the Update 18 patch for console in a couple weeks. Unfortunately due to the type of fix this is, the scheduling we have for certification, plus a number of other factors, this cannot be hotfixed. In the meantime, we are generating logs of everyone who may be taking advantage of this exploit, and we do plan to action those accounts accordingly.

Remember, if you come across what appears to be an exploit, please stop doing what you're doing and reach out to a staff member with details.

Thanks for that. I'm really shaking my head at this whole thing.

ed7878

DoctorESO wrote: »

ed7878 wrote: »

I think there are tons of other ways to look at this. My two cents. No need for a reply.

When you write a message to ZOS, there's no need to put "no need for a reply." They know that and follow that!

Ohhhh SCHNAPP!

For what it's worth, I've gotten my fair share of autoreplies but I've also always felt like devs are really engaged on forums, especially compared to other games.