Can we have any answer to the state/vision of DKs?

ak_pvp

@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno (since you have been active)

The entire core of the class has been taken away. The class that used to be able to hold its own and pressure opponents down. Despite being melee, it could hold its own, being able to pull people from anywhere, even keeps as a unique skill and a way to deal with ranged builds. Same with wings, strong but kept in check with cost. It could use ultimate as a refresher and despite no other methods of resource management, it was strong. The remaining defense, block, is continuously nerfed, with nothing given back, even though the meta tank builds strength comes from a variety of places. Then look to shields, still over performing with little sacrifice and no nerfs since 1t.

So here is a concise list of all its problems (outside of class design, its meant to be slower and DOTy)

Forced into vamp~Mist though trash is near necessary due to no other ways to desnare/move.

Wings ~ 2 common projectiles ignore it, some status effects go though, 2 limits, time and projectile. Projectile limit should be at least 4 per person, not good in multiple target fights, much worse than say cloak. Tack on snare removal+immunity and make it 4 per person and you have a balanced skill with decent counters and uptime vs cost.

Sustain ~ Ulti based sustain evens out to much worse than other classes, has been nerfed lots, and has no other sustain passives. Ironic for the outlive and slow burn class.

Survival ~ Forced into a boring block build which is being nerfed constantly, hurting run of the mill DKs a lot and the meta only mildly badly.

CCs ~ Petrify DK has dropped as one of the CC kings to a pleb. Our signature attack is now melee because its too strong, but sorcs have a copy with longer range. The morphs on it are eh too. The root morph was used for mid ranged attackers to force a 2x cc break, but now we can just talons them. And the damage/rng off balance from shattering is very underwhelming. Guess who is still not using stonefist.

CCs ~ Chains. Any reason they can't use it on certain heights, really hurts DKs usable remaining ranged counter. Or why the instant CC immunity, instead of maybe having it breakable free from?

They just aren't good anymore. I don't want a gapcloser, or expidition, or godlike damage, just the old pressure class that can deal with different scenarios without overstepping their boundaries. An AoE inferno (at least cauterize) would be nice, so would implosion, infiniwing or a purge. But I doubt we are getting it, so I ask, why is the core of DKs so hit?

Kilandros

They want DK to be a tank who holds block. As boring and one dimensional as that design is, they're clearly OK with it. See my sig.

Vynn

Good with everything except the 4 projectiles per person with reflect. Countering a literal zerg from range with one ability press every 3-6 seconds is overpowered. No one should be able to counter that many attacks from one ability press.

Same reason why the blocking calculation needs an adjustment.

Also want to add, there is a potential fix regarding the ranged abilities that don't reflect. Instead of reflecting, they should just deflect these abilities. Forces them into melee as the ability intends, isn't overpowered, increases counterplay without destroying uniqueness. Yahtzee.

Xvorg

I want to hear only one answer: Why combustion?

ak_pvp

Vynn wrote: »

Good with everything except the 4 projectiles per person with reflect. Countering a literal zerg from range with one ability press every 3-6 seconds is overpowered. No one should be able to counter that many attacks from one ability press.

Same reason why the blocking calculation needs an adjustment.

Also want to add, there is a potential fix regarding the ranged abilities that don't reflect. Instead of reflecting, they should just deflect these abilities. Forces them into melee as the ability intends, isn't overpowered, increases counterplay without destroying uniqueness. Yahtzee.

Because zergbads are skilless and need counters. It doesn't over buff vs one person, but doesn't become null in a group.

Things like cloak doesn't have a hide limit.

Malthorne

Charlie Brown is a dragon knight. The football is fossilize. Lucy is ...

RandomName123

Malthorne wrote: »

Charlie Brown is a dragon knight. The football is fossilize. Lucy is ...

A sorc.

Thogard

RandomName123 wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

Charlie Brown is a dragon knight. The football is fossilize. Lucy is ...

A sorc.

I was going to say Wrobel. I think we’re both right.

Vynn

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Good with everything except the 4 projectiles per person with reflect. Countering a literal zerg from range with one ability press every 3-6 seconds is overpowered. No one should be able to counter that many attacks from one ability press.

Same reason why the blocking calculation needs an adjustment.

Also want to add, there is a potential fix regarding the ranged abilities that don't reflect. Instead of reflecting, they should just deflect these abilities. Forces them into melee as the ability intends, isn't overpowered, increases counterplay without destroying uniqueness. Yahtzee.

Because zergbads are skilless and need counters. It doesn't over buff vs one person, but doesn't become null in a group.

Things like cloak doesn't have a hide limit.

One does not have to equal the other. Hide has many counters. Just as any playstyle should. NB are lax in other areas that compensate. Also, guess what a NB cant do while remaining hidden? Cast most abilities without revealing itself. DKs can still do everything while reflecting. You are comparing oranges to coconuts.

Anne_Firehawk

You not going to get a valuable answer. Give up, like we all did by now after dozens of ignored feedback pages.

ak_pvp

Vynn wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Good with everything except the 4 projectiles per person with reflect. Countering a literal zerg from range with one ability press every 3-6 seconds is overpowered. No one should be able to counter that many attacks from one ability press.

Same reason why the blocking calculation needs an adjustment.

Also want to add, there is a potential fix regarding the ranged abilities that don't reflect. Instead of reflecting, they should just deflect these abilities. Forces them into melee as the ability intends, isn't overpowered, increases counterplay without destroying uniqueness. Yahtzee.

Because zergbads are skilless and need counters. It doesn't over buff vs one person, but doesn't become null in a group.

Things like cloak doesn't have a hide limit.

One does not have to equal the other. Hide has many counters. Just as any playstyle should. NB are lax in other areas that compensate. Also, guess what a NB cant do while remaining hidden? Cast most abilities without revealing itself. DKs can still do everything while reflecting. You are comparing oranges to coconuts.

Maybe not, but purely from a defense standpoint, wings only does projectiles with a massive limit, cloak does non aoes and dots.

Shields have a limit and a time frame, (zos compares wings and shields) however they absorb all damage bar the unresistable ones, stop crit and status effects. Warden shield absorbs, but gives mag and a very very strong ultimate bonus.

Wings is just lacking and some solo play like one snare removal morph and a per person limit is much better without being overpowered in 1v1. The cost will remain the same and the time of 4 would be fair.

scipionumatia

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

You not going to get a valuable answer. Give up, like we all did by now after dozens of ignored feedback pages.

strongly second this^

best part of being at rock bottom is the only place to go is up

Toc de Malsvi

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Good with everything except the 4 projectiles per person with reflect. Countering a literal zerg from range with one ability press every 3-6 seconds is overpowered. No one should be able to counter that many attacks from one ability press.

Same reason why the blocking calculation needs an adjustment.

Also want to add, there is a potential fix regarding the ranged abilities that don't reflect. Instead of reflecting, they should just deflect these abilities. Forces them into melee as the ability intends, isn't overpowered, increases counterplay without destroying uniqueness. Yahtzee.

Because zergbads are skilless and need counters. It doesn't over buff vs one person, but doesn't become null in a group.

Things like cloak doesn't have a hide limit.

One does not have to equal the other. Hide has many counters. Just as any playstyle should. NB are lax in other areas that compensate. Also, guess what a NB cant do while remaining hidden? Cast most abilities without revealing itself. DKs can still do everything while reflecting. You are comparing oranges to coconuts.

Maybe not, but purely from a defense standpoint, wings only does projectiles with a massive limit, cloak does non aoes and dots.

Shields have a limit and a time frame, (zos compares wings and shields) however they absorb all damage bar the unresistable ones, stop crit and status effects. Warden shield absorbs, but gives mag and a very very strong ultimate bonus.

Wings is just lacking and some solo play like one snare removal morph and a per person limit is much better without being overpowered in 1v1. The cost will remain the same and the time of 4 would be fair.

Snare removal is a great idea.

Per person limit is not. As I detailed elsewhere, wings reactively cast to any of the major projectiles is a resource advantage. The cost of casting the skill that is reflected plus the cost of mitigating the skill that is reflected far outweighs the cost of reactively casting wings to an incoming projectile.

Per person means you can then magnify that resource advantage against an unlimited number of targets. In effect it might as well be inifite reflect.

lucky_Sage

here s my ideas for dk balance

elderdragon passive into a cost reduction passive.

making standard give a group but like minor heroism and make shifting standard into a player based aoe to make it mmore viable for pvp and both changes to it will help give dks something to bring to the group that wardens and tank sup sorcs don't do better.

give the reflective plate morph removes roots and snares instead of minor ward.this change with some sustain buffs would allow magdks not to be forced into vampire and with shuffle change help heavy armor stam dks if choose to use magicka. maybe a slit cost reduction like 200 to 300

a passive that minorly counters purge like maybe everytime a dk DoT is removed from targets gets 35 weapon and spell dmg stacking up 10 times for 6 seconds which would give the dk time to reaplay some but with thoughtful cleansing from healer or Templar wouldn't allow it to get out of hand and to strong

a stonefirst rework should happen a aoe heal like blessing of protection and it also sets enemies off balance who get hit by it. one morph can full on stun and the other can give ally a HoT. (fits in with them making everyclass has a line for each role) animation would be puching the ground and a magma shock wave in front of caster

fragmented shield should now scale off max magicka and give a HoT effect on it

ash cloud reduce cost and increase dmg to be on par with sorcs and nb ground aoe make it cast on the feet of the caster.

chains now stuns the target when its pulled to caster and empowering chains still pulls target to you not a gap closer if chains work right dks don't need one.

edit:
if chains works without bugs and stuns the target when its pulled towards you then rework petrify into a support abilty turns the lowest health ally skin into stone giving them minor protection for 10 seconds
morph one gives ally a dmg shield for x amount scales off max magicka
morph two now cost stamina and reduces cost
this change would buff stam dks aswell as healers


cinder storm morph of ash cloud now grants allies standing in it minor evasion but lowers dmg by 75% and removes snare


all of this seems to fit into dk as a class and gives them group utility that no other class has and will help dks healers which will help with zos's idea of giving every class a tank, dd and healer sup skill line.


second edit the stam morph of a reworked petrify and also always give buff to caster and 1 low health target
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

GeorgeBlack

scipionumatia wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

You not going to get a valuable answer. Give up, like we all did by now after dozens of ignored feedback pages.

strongly second this^

best part of being at rock bottom is the only place to go is up

You think you've reached rock bottom, but a couple of patches from now Zos will smash you and all the other DKs like the Hulk smashes whomever 5m through concrete ground.

Ragnarock41

Its not just mDk, stamDk is also in a very weak spot, compared to stamnb and stamden.

When the poster child of heavy armor meta is performing bad in PvP despite being in a heavy armor meta,and streamers are dropping it for stam warden,
You know the class is having some serious issues.

Compared to what warden/nb/sorc has for sustain, battle roar is in a laughable spot.

Anne_Firehawk

lucky_Sage wrote: »

here s my ideas for dk balance

elderdragon passive into a cost reduction passive.

making standard give a group but like minor heroism and make shifting standard into a player based aoe to make it mmore viable for pvp and both changes to it will help give dks something to bring to the group that wardens and tank sup sorcs don't do better.

give the reflective plate morph removes roots and snares instead of minor ward.this change with some sustain buffs would allow magdks not to be forced into vampire and with shuffle change help heavy armor stam dks if choose to use magicka. maybe a slit cost reduction like 200 to 300

a passive that minorly counters purge like maybe everytime a dk DoT is removed from targets gets 35 weapon and spell dmg stacking up 10 times for 6 seconds which would give the dk time to reaplay some but with thoughtful cleansing from healer or Templar wouldn't allow it to get out of hand and to strong

a stonefirst rework should happen a aoe heal like blessing of protection and it also sets enemies off balance who get hit by it. one morph can full on stun and the other can give ally a HoT. (fits in with them making everyclass has a line for each role) animation would be puching the ground and a magma shock wave in front of caster

fragmented shield should now scale off max magicka and give a HoT effect on it

ash cloud reduce cost and increase dmg to be on par with sorcs and nb ground aoe make it cast on the feet of the caster.

chains now stuns the target when its pulled to caster and empowering chains still pulls target to you not a gap closer if chains work right dks don't need one.

edit:
if chains works without bugs and stuns the target when its pulled towards you then rework petrify into a support abilty turns the lowest health ally skin into stone giving them minor protection for 10 seconds
morph one gives ally a dmg shield for x amount scales off max magicka
morph two now cost stamina and reduces cost
this change would buff stam dks aswell as healers


cinder storm morph of ash cloud now grants allies standing in it minor evasion but lowers dmg by 75% and removes snare


all of this seems to fit into dk as a class and gives them group utility that no other class has and will help dks healers which will help with zos's idea of giving every class a tank, dd and healer sup skill line.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

There is no point of making ideas or suggestions, look at 15+ pages of quality feedback, suggestions and ideas - all being ignored.

pieratsos

Vynn wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Good with everything except the 4 projectiles per person with reflect. Countering a literal zerg from range with one ability press every 3-6 seconds is overpowered. No one should be able to counter that many attacks from one ability press.

Same reason why the blocking calculation needs an adjustment.

Also want to add, there is a potential fix regarding the ranged abilities that don't reflect. Instead of reflecting, they should just deflect these abilities. Forces them into melee as the ability intends, isn't overpowered, increases counterplay without destroying uniqueness. Yahtzee.

Because zergbads are skilless and need counters. It doesn't over buff vs one person, but doesn't become null in a group.

Things like cloak doesn't have a hide limit.

One does not have to equal the other. Hide has many counters. Just as any playstyle should. NB are lax in other areas that compensate. Also, guess what a NB cant do while remaining hidden? Cast most abilities without revealing itself. DKs can still do everything while reflecting. You are comparing oranges to coconuts.

But reflect at its current state also has too many counters. Its called "nothing gets reflected anymore"

Vynn

pieratsos wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Good with everything except the 4 projectiles per person with reflect. Countering a literal zerg from range with one ability press every 3-6 seconds is overpowered. No one should be able to counter that many attacks from one ability press.

Same reason why the blocking calculation needs an adjustment.

Also want to add, there is a potential fix regarding the ranged abilities that don't reflect. Instead of reflecting, they should just deflect these abilities. Forces them into melee as the ability intends, isn't overpowered, increases counterplay without destroying uniqueness. Yahtzee.

Because zergbads are skilless and need counters. It doesn't over buff vs one person, but doesn't become null in a group.

Things like cloak doesn't have a hide limit.

One does not have to equal the other. Hide has many counters. Just as any playstyle should. NB are lax in other areas that compensate. Also, guess what a NB cant do while remaining hidden? Cast most abilities without revealing itself. DKs can still do everything while reflecting. You are comparing oranges to coconuts.

But reflect at its current state also has too many counters. Its called "nothing gets reflected anymore"

Which is why I stated earlier the non reflectable ranged attacks should instead be deflected. making the ability effective without being ridiculous.

pieratsos

Vynn wrote: »

Which is why I stated earlier the non reflectable ranged attacks should instead be deflected. making the ability effective without being ridiculous.

In its current form, scales with a 6s duration and everything being reflectable again is just going to make the ability beyond ridiculous in 1v1 and still useless in open world. Thats the opposite of how it should be.

Shorter duration (less than 4s) and increased projectiles is how it should work to give DKs their class uniqueness back instead of just being block dummies. If the DK can sustain it and use it effectively, then people that are stupid enough to spam overload, dark flares, snipes and frags should be punished.

SlowMetabolism

Kilandros wrote: »

They want DK to be a tank who holds block. As boring and one dimensional as that design is, they're clearly OK with it. See my sig.

All that while recently doubling the cost of block gg

Aedaryl

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Good with everything except the 4 projectiles per person with reflect. Countering a literal zerg from range with one ability press every 3-6 seconds is overpowered. No one should be able to counter that many attacks from one ability press.

Same reason why the blocking calculation needs an adjustment.

Also want to add, there is a potential fix regarding the ranged abilities that don't reflect. Instead of reflecting, they should just deflect these abilities. Forces them into melee as the ability intends, isn't overpowered, increases counterplay without destroying uniqueness. Yahtzee.

Because zergbads are skilless and need counters. It doesn't over buff vs one person, but doesn't become null in a group.

Things like cloak doesn't have a hide limit.

Can you tell me what a resto destro magicka NB can do agaisnt Wings ?

Every spells are reflectable, and it's far to be balanced. You want to buff your class, the actual meta but you don't think about other class. Balance is over all the game, not Dk only.

You say Dk is weak, but it's very good in 1v1 and can tank a lot of player and even kill the noobest one. DK is not weak, that's why 30% of cyrodil run dk.

lucky_Sage

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

here s my ideas for dk balance

elderdragon passive into a cost reduction passive.

making standard give a group but like minor heroism and make shifting standard into a player based aoe to make it mmore viable for pvp and both changes to it will help give dks something to bring to the group that wardens and tank sup sorcs don't do better.

give the reflective plate morph removes roots and snares instead of minor ward.this change with some sustain buffs would allow magdks not to be forced into vampire and with shuffle change help heavy armor stam dks if choose to use magicka. maybe a slit cost reduction like 200 to 300

a passive that minorly counters purge like maybe everytime a dk DoT is removed from targets gets 35 weapon and spell dmg stacking up 10 times for 6 seconds which would give the dk time to reaplay some but with thoughtful cleansing from healer or Templar wouldn't allow it to get out of hand and to strong

a stonefirst rework should happen a aoe heal like blessing of protection and it also sets enemies off balance who get hit by it. one morph can full on stun and the other can give ally a HoT. (fits in with them making everyclass has a line for each role) animation would be puching the ground and a magma shock wave in front of caster

fragmented shield should now scale off max magicka and give a HoT effect on it

ash cloud reduce cost and increase dmg to be on par with sorcs and nb ground aoe make it cast on the feet of the caster.

chains now stuns the target when its pulled to caster and empowering chains still pulls target to you not a gap closer if chains work right dks don't need one.

edit:
if chains works without bugs and stuns the target when its pulled towards you then rework petrify into a support abilty turns the lowest health ally skin into stone giving them minor protection for 10 seconds
morph one gives ally a dmg shield for x amount scales off max magicka
morph two now cost stamina and reduces cost
this change would buff stam dks aswell as healers


cinder storm morph of ash cloud now grants allies standing in it minor evasion but lowers dmg by 75% and removes snare


all of this seems to fit into dk as a class and gives them group utility that no other class has and will help dks healers which will help with zos's idea of giving every class a tank, dd and healer sup skill line.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

There is no point of making ideas or suggestions, look at 15+ pages of quality feedback, suggestions and ideas - all being ignored.

I know but for some reason care and I think all these changes are reasonable and fit into what a dks and give unique flavor and gives them a reason to have into group

Vesper_BR

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Good with everything except the 4 projectiles per person with reflect. Countering a literal zerg from range with one ability press every 3-6 seconds is overpowered. No one should be able to counter that many attacks from one ability press.

Same reason why the blocking calculation needs an adjustment.

Also want to add, there is a potential fix regarding the ranged abilities that don't reflect. Instead of reflecting, they should just deflect these abilities. Forces them into melee as the ability intends, isn't overpowered, increases counterplay without destroying uniqueness. Yahtzee.

Because zergbads are skilless and need counters. It doesn't over buff vs one person, but doesn't become null in a group.

Things like cloak doesn't have a hide limit.

Can you tell me what a resto destro magicka NB can do agaisnt Wings ?

Every spells are reflectable, and it's far to be balanced. You want to buff your class, the actual meta but you don't think about other class. Balance is over all the game, not Dk only.

You say Dk is weak, but it's very good in 1v1 and can tank a lot of player and even kill the noobest one. DK is not weak, that's why 30% of cyrodil run dk.

I really wanted to know from where you guys take this statatics....
BTW... Mag nb can easily beat a mag dk even with wings just because a mag dk can't sustain wings for more than seconds without runing out of magicka... I've dueled an watched countless duels and most of the time mag nb wins over dks that uses wings....

And if you're pissed about scales... I think j you should know more about Wardens... They have better reflectives measured and I don't see anyone complaining...

Vesper_BR

Just for complement:
Magdks are good in duels just because 1v1 (duels) are timeless fights usually in close quarters and non obstacles... In these conditions I agree that dks are beats, just because you're forced to kill him and to do so you stay in his range and takes all dots while he block cast your attacks... But in open cirodill we lack mobility and functionality to fight. More now with the changes that take our tool to keep enemies where we can fight and damage them (FOSSILIZE).
Without it we are nothing more than a mediocre class.

Vesper_BR

I challenge every player that says that dks are fine in cirodill to try it, and tell us your experiences with the class compared to others...

I have every class except Wardens full leveled and I can say for sure, that dks are the most unbalanced class. Stam dk are pure garbage and inferior to every other Stam class... Mag dks can't do real damage and die real quickly if not block casting, since it has no worth sloting defensive skills...

Magdk is powerfully, but far from being the best and mostly will become Inferior next patch.
The class has no the definition of its identity...

I'm just think about how zos had the courage to give our fossilize combo to sorc... Just imagine one sorc doing this combo>>>
Velocious curse > endless fury >> rune cage >> ice comet...

If u guys think it was powerfully on a dk that stays Melee... Now think about it coming from like 40 metters away so you cant do nothing and just die...
Thanks ZOS *flaps

DoonerSeraph

They would love to share with you their vision for DK, but you would hace to drop block to look at it and they dont want you to do that

ak_pvp

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Vynn wrote: »

Good with everything except the 4 projectiles per person with reflect. Countering a literal zerg from range with one ability press every 3-6 seconds is overpowered. No one should be able to counter that many attacks from one ability press.

Same reason why the blocking calculation needs an adjustment.

Also want to add, there is a potential fix regarding the ranged abilities that don't reflect. Instead of reflecting, they should just deflect these abilities. Forces them into melee as the ability intends, isn't overpowered, increases counterplay without destroying uniqueness. Yahtzee.

Because zergbads are skilless and need counters. It doesn't over buff vs one person, but doesn't become null in a group.

Things like cloak doesn't have a hide limit.

Can you tell me what a resto destro magicka NB can do agaisnt Wings ?

Every spells are reflectable, and it's far to be balanced. You want to buff your class, the actual meta but you don't think about other class. Balance is over all the game, not Dk only.

You say Dk is weak, but it's very good in 1v1 and can tank a lot of player and even kill the noobest one. DK is not weak, that's why 30% of cyrodil run dk.

Concealed or forcepulse. Fear, light attack weave to break it with minimal damage since it has a bad limit and set up will.* Wait it out because it's hard to keep up. Resto attack if desperate. Use it as buff time. Cloak and watch all DKs attacks fail or require them to aoe.

Disclaimer: I don't know if reflected light attacks count towards will.

templesus

I’ll agree Mag Dk needs buff when vamps stop taking 25% more fire damage. I don’t enjoy 5k Skoria with 10k flame leap combos on my medium armor stamplar, and definitely will enjoy fighting the class even less if the aforementioned buffs were to be implemented.
Balance the game overall, then balance the classes.

Wing

I would really like some of that snare reduction like warden.

or even a snare immunity for some time added to a skill (wings)

I don't mind not being fast, but having the freedom to apply constant pressure would be nice, instead of being kited to death by everything

lazerlaz

You should try more than the meta sword and shield dk for pvp. My friend mains a magicka light armor dual sword resto staff dps dk in PVP. Hes not squishy, he hits hard as heck even against non vamps, and has great sustain. However, his biggest attribute is (drumroll please) SKILL.

DKs are definitely NOT forced into running sword and shield and ZOS knows it. That's why y'all's tears are ignored.