Too many nerfs patch after patch

Joy_Division

I understand even the most diligent and dedicated are going to struggle trying to balance so many systems at once (CP, no CP, PvE, PvP, etc. And people are not going to be happy no matter what because many issues are irreconcilable. Tis a thankless job.

And nothing I say here is meant to diminish the good intentions ZoS has. There were some correct adjustments made to armor and ultimates. Also I think Zenimax does a good job at making the single-player experience in the new zones interesting and engaging.

That being said, please Zenimax, stop nerfing class skills and taking away their distinctiveness. It takes away much of the anticipation for your updates.

I’ve been playing fantasy roleplaying games ever since Advanced Dungeons and Dragons was in its heyday. All the good ones have all shared a common theme: they offered the players interesting and distinctive tools that stimulated their brains to come up with strategies to overcome challenges the Game-Master presented us. The spells and powers we use need to be powerful, impactful, and distinguishing. That is what makes these games intellectually stimulating, that is what makes for meaningful strategy and counter-play, that is what makes these games addicting.

Zenimax, consider what our classes could do at Launch and compare that to what they can’t do now. How can that be desirable or enhancing the experience with our characters? And yet this unsettling trend continues as each class is getting a signature ability nerfed: Sorcerers (crystal fragments), Dragonknights (petrify), Templars (purify), and Nightblades (mass hysteria). We need interesting and powerful abilities because that is what creates strategy, play and counterplay. All the constant nerfs is turning chess into checkers.

It’s mind-boggling why some of these nerfs are even implemented. 95% of sorcerers have been using the Crystal Fragments morph since Launch because the Crystal Blast morph is too expensive, too dangerous, does less damage, and quite frankly isn’t very good. Instead of making Blast interesting, fun, and dynamic, Zenimax has instead opted to nerf Crystal Fragments to constrain us to pick the option we never wanted to use in the first place. That is a terrible process. Frags has been used for over three years. It’s fine. While powerful, it is can be countered via dodge, block, reflect, etc., and is precisely the sort of ability that all classes need to make the game stimulating to play. This nerf is neither making the choice between the morph compelling nor improving the game. It is just embittering the people who have invested their time and money into playing a sorcerer.

And why are these nerfs at coming at us even though game-breaking issues aren’t addressed? Since Morrowind was released, Warden DPS has been terrible. Not just a little below the other classes, but terrible. It’s still terrible. As a templar player, I appreciate the work done to try and make Eclipse better, but my priorities are way higher: Templar DPS is still intolerably low because months ago the way percent bonuses lessened the damage to skills like Puncturing Sweeps and Radiant Destruction. Nobody wants to play a gimped class. And we certainly don’t want to have to eat a nerf to a signature ability while nothing is done about the terrible DPS. It’s a total reversal of priorities: it’s nerf them before we fix them.

Finally, I am concerned about the continued simplification and homogenization of gameplay. Nightblades, Dragonknights, and Sorcerers will all have a stun that ignores block and dodge-roll. Need someone stunned? Just press a button – your class will have one (sorry templars, not you) – and there pretty much isn’t anything your opponent can do about it. That’s not very interesting and does not make classes play very differently. The range nerf to the Petrify just to make the unchanged Stonefist skill more appealing was not needed. An automatic max range stun is certainly something sorcerers don’t need. On Live, sorcerers got to do a little work or rely on a little luck to successfully land Crystal Fragments (and are rewarded with a stun). Next update, it’s unavoidable stun and then come the Frags or worse Meteor. As if sorcerer builds were cookie-cutter enough, now they are all going to so the exact same thing: Curse – Rune Prison – Frags/Meteor – Endless Fury. That is boring, formulaic gameplay.

Please stop with the nerfs and consider reverting them. The classes we play have had much of their charm and uniqueness taken away by nerfs. That charm and uniqueness is what made me want to keep playing ESO in the first place. With every patch since the Champion System has been introduced, our characters have become a little more boring and disappointing to play. You have done a good job improving the content of Elder Scrolls Online, now please stop the nerfs to so we have fun and exciting gameplay to match that improvement.

reiverx

Totally agree. What a watered down mess of a game it's turning into. A wasted opportunity.

But, I think we're all getting nerf/lag fatigue to the point where saying anything is a waste of time.

Trashs1

im agreeing in all points with you


just one question, where does nb have a undodge/blockable stun?!

Azurya

But that is the only job they do at ZOS

NERF ALL and creating LOADING SCREENS, LAGS, ROLL BACKS and so on,
and some content to play, BUT that gets a nerf too the next downgrade they produce!

Banish the wicked!

Derra

@Joy_Division personally i think is 1:1 replicating buisness model and patching policy of bioware in regards to sw:tor (and somewhat what blizzard did in wow).

The game has already been turned into a somewhat acceptable crownstore cashcow. What´s next will be making the game absolutely onedimensional to the point where there are not more realistic choices for skills or gear but instead every class will come with a destinct setup y you´ll want to wear to fill role x.

For me part of this showed when i learned that their current design goal was to adapt the other classes to the warden design philosophy of 1 tank/heal/DD classtree.

Aedaryl

Well, ZoS make a lot of nerfs, and most of them are needed. If you take the meta in EU it's zerg of 40% templar, with 30% Dk, 10% sorc, 15% NB and 5% warden.

Every one is tanky and have it's poket healer, in zerg NB are just destro machine and sorc Negate one. Even if you take small group, it's 80% of the time tanky player runing togever.

ZoS nerfed wrath, locked shuffle, and it's good things.

The weird point is like you said, about class skills : nobody asked for a fear nerf, a petrify nerf, or a frag nerf.

ZoS is trying making other morph/skills more appealing, that's why they nerfed fear, for make the other better, petrify is nerfed for make stone fist valuable and frag is nerf for make rune cage more appealing.

But well, ZoS should stop nerf class abilities for make other underused better. Buff the bad morph/skill, don't nerf the good one.

But the worst class nerf is the crystal frag one. As a sorc you need to delete your utility skill for slotting rune cage.

Crystal frag was used as the stun of the curse/frag/fury combo, and was used for some nice combo like heavy attack + frag + fury, or as an emergency stun, for going from the defensive to offensive mode.

You need to slot rune cage for making the job of the old crystal frag. You also lost a 1s - meaning 1 foce pulse in your rotation, since the stun is not in your damage anymore.

Some people think it's a buff because rune cage is undodgeable and unblocable, but streak is already undogeable and rune cage was already unblocable.

Zer0oo

Trashs1 wrote: »

im agreeing in all points with you


just one question, where does nb have a undodge/blockable stun?!

Fear the original unblock able stun.

Trashs1

Zer0oo wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

im agreeing in all points with you


just one question, where does nb have a undodge/blockable stun?!

Fear the original unblock able stun.

what is harshly nerfed this time

Arciris

Thank you so much @Joy_Division for taking the time to summarize my feelings in a very well worded post.

I am a patient person and I can take a nerf to game mechanics without much fuss but... not to class skills and passives.
Nerfs to class skills or even reworks of popular choices always trigger me as I always see them as an arrow to the knee
No matter if it is to a class that I barely play, I feel like it removes the identity of the game.
Every way the game works should serve that game identity and not the other way around.
An example: ultimate generation.
At launch, the way ulti gen worked favored greatly one class over the others - the way ulti gen was reworked to bring balance to the game without touching the class that was most favored by that system was a great move and, in my modest opinion, the perfect example on how balance needs to be worked on: around the classes (not with), preserving their identity.
I can accept numbers tweaking but changing the way a class skill works is just disheartening.

Also please remember the game is not just about combat. There are a number of other activities that we can do in game that can also be affected - negatively - by combat balance, taking a lot of the fun of those activities.
Example: movement speed cap.
Going fast is fun but if it brings imbalance in BG's why not make those relics, flag, etc, impossible to carry when sprinting, sneaking or teleporting instead of nerfing our speed/teleports? That way innocent travelers and explorers (or thieves and murderers) could still enjoy high speed in their RP activities.
This could also be applied to scrolls in Cyro and maybe sorcerers can have their old streak back? (after making sure gap closers are working properly please).

Oh well, already wrote too much, thanks for reading if you had the patience

Edit for typos

Malic

Nothing is going to change, its been this way for years.

The same team handling the content. Its like going to restaurant you dislike the food, then you go back a week later. You still dislike the food, at some point you have to conclude that the chef isnt up to your standard.

If you continue to go back to that restaurant with the same chef and you expect a different outcome, you are the problem.

Thats the case here at ESO, if this were a new thing I would agree. It isnt this has been going on for years now, its your fault for expecting something different.

Asardes

ZoS be like: "You main it? We'll maim it!"

Derra

Malic wrote: »

Nothing is going to change, its been this way for years.

The same team handling the content. Its like going to restaurant you dislike the food, then you go back a week later. You still dislike the food, at some point you have to conclude that the chef isnt up to your standard.

If you continue to go back to that restaurant with the same chef and you expect a different outcome, you are the problem.

Thats the case here at ESO, if this were a new thing I would agree. It isnt this has been going on for years now, its your fault for expecting something different.

It isn´t quite the same.

By your example you´d first get good food and then for some reason the chef begins to alter perfectly fine recipes for dubious reasons.
So while the atmosphere of the restaurant gets improved the quality of food served decreases every time (and it started out quite good) - which is what joy´s critizising if i don´t completely misunderstand.

Minno

Aedaryl wrote: »

Well, ZoS make a lot of nerfs, and most of them are needed. If you take the meta in EU it's zerg of 40% templar, with 30% Dk, 10% sorc, 15% NB and 5% warden.

Every one is tanky and have it's poket healer, in zerg NB are just destro machine and sorc Negate one. Even if you take small group, it's 80% of the time tanky player runing togever.

ZoS nerfed wrath, locked shuffle, and it's good things.

The weird point is like you said, about class skills : nobody asked for a fear nerf, a petrify nerf, or a frag nerf.

ZoS is trying making other morph/skills more appealing, that's why they nerfed fear, for make the other better, petrify is nerfed for make stone fist valuable and frag is nerf for make rune cage more appealing.

But well, ZoS should stop nerf class abilities for make other underused better. Buff the bad morph/skill, don't nerf the good one.

But the worst class nerf is the crystal frag one. As a sorc you need to delete your utility skill for slotting rune cage.

Crystal frag was used as the stun of the curse/frag/fury combo, and was used for some nice combo like heavy attack + frag + fury, or as an emergency stun, for going from the defensive to offensive mode.

You need to slot rune cage for making the job of the old crystal frag. You also lost a 1s - meaning 1 foce pulse in your rotation, since the stun is not in your damage anymore.

Some people think it's a buff because rune cage is undodgeable and unblocable, but streak is already undogeable and rune cage was already unblocable.

When you think about it, we did ask for nerfs for those skills. Just inadvertently through our videos/streaming/inability to experiment with other skills and show them how terrible they are in daily playing.

So for example, Templars are saying purge is enough as is because of all the debuffs running around but other classes are saying purge is too strong. Then in our videos we are using purge to proc trans, slow enemies, purge debuffs early, get minor mending in a huge circle; it's utility is spamable and ZoS has now decided that was not the intended purpose of that spell (similar to vigor getting a similar nerf; it's a heal over time that was spamable).

Though if they want high cost and things to not be spamable, then let them make it higher cost but the benefits should justify the cost increases. So if temps purge will be just as expensive as efficient purge, it's probably fair to request our purge also reduce the DMG of the enemy standing in our circle to promote laying down the circle and letting its duration expire.

But some yolo-knight is going to stand in it and complain because zos hadn't fix the lag in cyro which directly impacts their animations.

Kilandros

I actually kinda feel bad for the balance team. It's probably just Wrobel and like two other people working with a tiny budget being told to make small changes each patch.

Liofa

ZOS is doing one thing very wrong . Nerfing instead of buffing . I believe that's why people still play WoW . Your character progress with each patch , even if you fall behind other classes , your character gets stronger . This is how game supposed to go like . Here is the most obvious example . Magicka DPS . Magicka classes were pulling 50k+ single target on every boss , now they barely hit 40k . Who likes that ? Stamina was so fun to play with light weaving and you could easily see who plays better . There was a difference between skilled players and others . Weaving , rotation , speed and accuracy was incredibly important . Now , you just hold left click and press buttons one by one . I wouldn't care if this wasn't a necessity but sadly it is . There is no way you can pull decent DPS with a light weave rotation unless your class allows you to do it , talking about Nightblades obviously . You can go to PTS right now , throw some classic gear on a Stamina character you don't even have on live server and pull decent DPS on first try . You shouldn't be able to but you can . Because it doesn't require any brains . Of course , there will be few people who truly mastered their class and use special rotations and pull higher DPS but again it is so easy to play with Heavy Attack rotation , difference will not be extreme . This is wrong .

Same thing applies to item sets . Soooo many strong sets got nerfed but almost none got a decent buff . Game is popular for the ''play however you want'' thing . It's not like that . It's nowhere close . If you want to be successful , game forces you to do something . What's the DPS difference between a 2h/Bow build and a DW/Bow build ? Absolutely crazy . What is a Stamina DPS without a Bow ? Nothing . You MUST use Bow . There is no other way . It shouldn't be like this . What happened to the sets that people laugh about ? What happened to Ashen Grip ? I wonder if devs are thinking about buffing anything that is completely useless . For gods sake just look at this crap : (5 items) When you take damage while under 30% Health, you deal 3870 Magic Damage to the attacker and heal for 3870 Health. This can effect can occur once every 30 seconds. This is a 5 piece bonus of a set called Vampire's Kiss . Who the hell would use this for what purpose ?

Another big issue is group play . Synergies mostly . Not only they are unreliable (not working at all most of the time to be exact) also useless . What happened to the Mystic Orb by tanks and Energy Orb by healers combo ? Wasn't that the perfect example of group play ? Tell me a reason for slotting Mystic Orb . ZOS made this skill only for self usage . People were popping this synergy for whole group . Now it is a competition of who is lucky enough to get the synergy , if they can use it of course . Just like synergies , most group buffs are applied to 6 people max on cast , even though trials are for 12 players . When I use Frost Cloak twice , it gives the buff to the same 6 people . I can't even buff my group properly . I can't use Igneous Weapons because it doesn't apply the buff to everyone . This skill could be a gamechanger for most DDs , letting them play with an another potion with different effects . Doesn't matter how many times you cast this skill , it will always go to the same players as long as they are in range . Same thing with Powerful Assault . What kind of support set is so based on RNG that both tanks could get 90%+ uptime and only few DDs get 10-20% at most . There have been fights where even healer gets 80% uptime on this buff but only 2 DDS could get maybe 50% , other didn't even get it . I want to use Vigor 3 times in a row and give this buff to everyone but I can't because developers are busy nerfing things that people use to get their character stronger .

There are so many more things I could sit and complain/rage about every aspect of the game . All I want you to do is this . Look at the end-game PvE community . Look at how small it is . It is getting smaller and smaller . When you see that your best known players are barely logging in the game and prefer to stream other games , you know you are doing something wrong . This is not only for PvE , also for PvP . It doesn't require anyone to be a genius to see where the game is heading . I personally love this game and am disappointed in almost every new patch .

redspecter23

I have to agree. A new patch should be filled with exciting new features, content and tweaks. As it is now, I dread new updates because the only thing on my mind is wondering what nerfs I'll have to deal with. I get that some nerfs are necessary for balance but this is just getting out of hand. Don't make your players hate new updates. That's not good business.

Azurya

@Joy_Division

Thanks for this, well formulated and to the point.

And I still have something in mind were a major dev told us something that they wanted to bring more diversity in the game..............

and now the whole base is cut to the same length and all what looks different is rooted out.

NBrookus

The nerfs will continue as a long as there is an open-ended buff each patch in the form of CP. Totally agree with Joy though -- nerfing class identity leads to a boring game. The reverse-physcology buffs this patch in particular.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Agree. Soon every class will be issued two 4 foot sticks as weapons with the exact same specs. The more players cry for nerfs the more will be removed from classes until they are all pretty much the same.

DeHei

Very good written @Joy_Division

@ZOS: You should accept, that some morphs are much better then others. When this other morphs dont will be used, it cant be the solution to nerf that morph, which is used much more... A better solution would allways be to change the useless morph to a useful and then the player can make there decision what they want to use!

When some skills will not used, then change them to better ones and dont try to ressurect a dead horse!
Another thing, we have only fast battles and need max flexible skills. Every skill with casttime or channeled abilities cant be the key for this kind of gameplay. Pls change them to instantskills or give us the possibility to run in normal speed while channel a ability! Everything else cant be successful in dynamic fights..

DHale

10 out of 10 dentist’s agree with Joy’s post.

aeowulf

NB lost literally 50% of their pvp crowd control and 100% of their pve crowd conrtol, and by crowd, I acually mean one mob...

fear is not control in pve, it could be help when soloing I guess, but in a group you are making mobs run out of ground based AE's

I am looknig forward to when ZOS hit all classes with the big ol balance hammer and separate the tank, healing and dps roles into the three skill trees. it is going to make balancing so much easier, and will hopefull stop a lot of people complaining.

Asmael

I'd like to press the "Agree" button, but I'm pretty sure ZoS will nerf it if I do.

On this: what are your bets on the next thing to nerf? I'll bet on blocking (a nerf to everyone except permablockers) and heavy armor again. With an extra (hidden) templar nerf, a DK change that is a buff if you like roleplaying and a nerf otherwise, a NB change to a core ability "because it didn't fit their vision", a change to sorcerers because "it makes that one morph that nobody will ever slot more attractive even if it still doesn't" and finally a warden sustained DPS nerf because there is no reason to make the lowest PvE DD any better.

Anyway: post on point. The game is just annoying as it is, time for a change of vision (not that I expect anything to happen).

Kilandros

Asmael wrote: »

I'd like to press the "Agree" button, but I'm pretty sure ZoS will nerf it if I do.

On this: what are your bets on the next thing to nerf? I'll bet on blocking (a nerf to everyone except permablockers) and heavy armor again. With an extra (hidden) templar nerf, a DK change that is a buff if you like roleplaying and a nerf otherwise, a NB change to a core ability "because it didn't fit their vision", a change to sorcerers because "it makes that one morph that nobody will ever slot more attractive even if it still doesn't" and finally a warden sustained DPS nerf because there is no reason to make the lowest PvE DD any better.

Anyway: post on point. The game is just annoying as it is, time for a change of vision (not that I expect anything to happen).

A change of vision would be nice but it won't happen anytime soon. This game is on low-power mode in terms of financing content that is part of the base game. You'd like to think a company with an IP like Elder Scrolls would take more pride in their product, but unfortunately that just isn't the case. If it can't be monetized behind a pay wall in ESO, it just isn't a priority.

mandricus

I just hopped in to add another insignificant opinion to the "please, stop the nerfs" choir.
i won't quote anything of the usual insightful and perfectly written post by Joy_Division.

What I would like to highlight is a message that, going through the topic, caught my attention:

redspecter23 wrote: »

A new patch should be filled with exciting new features, content and tweaks. As it is now, I dread new updates because the only thing on my mind is wondering what nerfs I'll have to deal with. I get that some nerfs are necessary for balance but this is just getting out of hand. Don't make your players hate new updates. That's not good business.

This is exactly how I feel before every patch.
Every new patch, every new DLC, should make me feel excited about what is coming in.
That is not the case. At the moment, every time there is a new patch I'm just scared. Scared of not being able to play anymore the game I liked, the class I liked, the way I liked, because of the new nerfs that every new patch brings in.
There is no excitement in that, just frustration.

Izaki

Agreed.

What's sad is that they won't care and that the patch will go through as proceeded with multiple things, especially Asylum weapons, unadressed at all. The Frags stun removal is just idiotic and the reasoning is even more idiotic (which is the same reasoning as Stonefist and Petrify). And now, they've basically taken disorients out of the game, by removing every class ability that did that and Scatter Shot was also turned into a stun. The game is being dumbed down more and more and every class looks more and more similar, espeically Stamina classes.

So ZOS, I've supported you on many things, but when you don't listen to most feedback at all, sometimes I wonder why I even play on the PTS and test things that most people won't test since they are considered useless.

scipionumatia

Thanks @Joy_Division
Spot on.

An Idea I have for some of the unused morphs would be to make morphs that preform completely different from the base skill (kinda like solar barrage).
Either that or grant X crit resist on skill cast to grant pvp morphs?

Rainraven

I agree with the OP.

When adjustments need to be made - and they do, sometimes - they should be made to gear long before they're made to class skills. Instead, every update they throw a few more sets on the pile. Some problems in PVP could be addressed by changing how AP is awarded, and some by making overarching gameplay changes (AOE caps kind of deal). That should happen before changing skills.

And the CP system just sucks. As long as that's looming over all of us and creating power imbalances they're going to keep hacking and slashing the classes to make our intrinsic abilities weaker. It needs a change. Urgently.

Have to say I'm pretty disgusted with the line of thought that some skills are underutilized, so let's make the skills people like unappealing. What. The. Hell. Is. That. You know what might be cool? Stay with me, it's a radical notion: what if all the skills were appealing! Maybe try that.

Not that it matters what I think of any of this, obviously.

Zer0oo

I really hoped they would have used this patch for improvements: e.g less heavy attack combat, synergies(make orbs great again or at least let use use them), stam vs mag balance and bug fixes
Neither of this issues got addressed, so we have to wait at least another 3 month or 6 month for them.

They did almost nothing in the first 2 weeks and after 2 weeks they made one short post with a few changes which most of them did only come in the last pts week. And they changes were something like:
to make cblast a better skill they nerfed the other morph and cblast is still useless

This patch was wasted on a few unneeded nerfs and changes that basically did remove some of the class uniqueness. There were a few good changes but most of the issues are still there. Most pts patches just feel more and more like a big nerfs to sets/skills/classes.

Xvorg

Derra wrote: »

For me part of this showed when i learned that their current design goal was to adapt the other classes to the warden design philosophy of 1 tank/heal/DD classtree.

Funny thing, what's the DD skill tree in a NB? Siph? No, that's the healing tree. Shadow? No, that's the Tank tree. Assa? Only one dmg skill besides ulti and a buff that procs. And a gap closer.

ZoS has no clue... we know each class and how they work, saddle they are too busy hearing pod cast of thei own ideas instead of paying attention to us.

SirCritical

The problem is that they won't see the negative effects of their nerf-friendly attitude until lots of players will leave. Sadly, I'd like to stay, because I love this game, so what does this mean? Lots of others should go. That's what I can't and mustn't demand, so... stalemate.