Too many nerfs patch after patch

Derra

Xvorg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

For me part of this showed when i learned that their current design goal was to adapt the other classes to the warden design philosophy of 1 tank/heal/DD classtree.

Funny thing, what's the DD skill tree in a NB? Siph? No, that's the healing tree. Shadow? No, that's the Tank tree. Assa? Only one dmg skill besides ulti and a buff that procs. And a gap closer.

ZoS has no clue... we know each class and how they work, saddle they are too busy hearing pod cast of thei own ideas instead of paying attention to us.

Take a look at sorc.

Best dps abilities come from daedric summoning or stormcalling.
Tanking abilities come from? Deadric summoning.
Heals? Daedric summoning.

Asardes

5 Julianos 5/4 IA or Moondancer w Maelstrom Backbar 1 Kena/Iceheart or 2 Ilambris/Grothdarr/Skoria, always destro, destro, mostly lightning.
5 Hunding/NMG/TFS/WM/VO/Sunderflame, always Maelstrom Backbar, always 2 daggers front bar
Heavy attack after each ability

Much diversity, very variation, such builds!

amasuriel

Yeah agree on all points. For every step forward is 2 back.

The recent changes to some weapon / armor traits was great, making sharpened not the only game in town was good.

The coming retrait mechanism is great.

A stated intention of basically giving all classes the exact same toolkit, and doing it badly (for example templar which is useless in PvE DPS and overpowered in PvP), and continuing to confuse pvp and pve problems (like the most recent block ticks being .25 instead of .5) is so frustrating.

I just came back after a summer break, and the game seems much quieter than before Morrowind despite all the new content. Maybe it's just my groups, but even Craglorn there seems to be a lot less people running trial groups etc. The odd normal nHof farm mostly.

It's always frustrating because ESO can be a lot of fun, I've gotten a lot out of it, and it's problems in the late game are of it's own doing. I hope they decide to drop this "every class the same" nonsense.

Ladislao

Asardes wrote: »

5 Julianos 5/4 IA or Moondancer w Maelstrom Backbar 1 Kena/Iceheart or 2 Ilambris/Grothdarr/Skoria, always destro, destro, mostly lightning.
5 Hunding/NMG/TFS/WM/VO/Sunderflame, always Maelstrom Backbar, always 2 daggers front bar
Heavy attack after each ability

Much diversity, very variation, such builds!

No offense but I think you did not understand the essence of the topic at all. Just like you do not know the question you are talking about.

Asardes

Ladislao wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

5 Julianos 5/4 IA or Moondancer w Maelstrom Backbar 1 Kena/Iceheart or 2 Ilambris/Grothdarr/Skoria, always destro, destro, mostly lightning.
5 Hunding/NMG/TFS/WM/VO/Sunderflame, always Maelstrom Backbar, always 2 daggers front bar
Heavy attack after each ability

Much diversity, very variation, such builds!

No offense but I think you did not understand the essence of the topic at all. Just like you do not know the question you are talking about.

I do understand very well. The BiS sets are almost the same for every class. Also stamina classes use pretty much the same skills, with 1-2 class flavored ones. The nerfs and class homogenization have killed both gear and skill set diversity in both PvP and PvE.

Autumnhart

My class got off easy this patch, and isn't yet being homogenized. Perhaps because people who choose to play NB want to be nightblades, not nb-templars or nb-sorcs, and the sorcs aren't complaining they can't be us - but maybe we are just lucky so far idk.

Still I agree with the OP. I don't like what has been done to templars, and don't want other classes sent down that road. I don't like class-signature skills being screwed up for no good reason. Was crystal blast depressed that nobody liked it best? Was defensive rune getting too smug? There are so many things that need to be fixed, and instead the devs go with this nonsense. Their strategy escapes me; I often wonder if they have one.

Fuxo

ZOS should revert all the changes to skills with disorient (changed to unblockable stun) and reimplement disorient into status effect that is not removed by damaging the target, but has a duration. All those skills had their use and it's gone now.

kojou

redspecter23 wrote: »

I have to agree. A new patch should be filled with exciting new features, content and tweaks. As it is now, I dread new updates because the only thing on my mind is wondering what nerfs I'll have to deal with. I get that some nerfs are necessary for balance but this is just getting out of hand. Don't make your players hate new updates. That's not good business.

This update was particularly disappointing for me. The Asylum weapons are mostly junk for PvE (except for the 2 ranged magicka DDs per raid that will use the staff) which is ironic considering we have to do "End Game" PvE to get the weapons. I will try to get in a group to run the trial and get achievements and all that, but I was hoping it would be much more appealing than it is currently.

My poor magicka DK is still reliant on "Off Balance" for any decent DPS and will get pushed out by any Stamina build in a raid since they do more DPS and don't consume "Off Balance" as much with their rotations. Unfortunately Magicka Templars are in the same boat...

I learned that sticking with the class that is in the "dog house" is an exercise in masochism and I might as well switch classes to one of the more effective ones (it may be several months and multiple patch cycles before they address an under-performing class). On the bright side I am finally getting around to using my Stamplar this patch.

I really hope they will take your feedback and it will influence the direction the game is going a little bit.

Xvorg

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

I have to agree. A new patch should be filled with exciting new features, content and tweaks. As it is now, I dread new updates because the only thing on my mind is wondering what nerfs I'll have to deal with. I get that some nerfs are necessary for balance but this is just getting out of hand. Don't make your players hate new updates. That's not good business.

This update was particularly disappointing for me. The Asylum weapons are mostly junk for PvE (except for the 2 ranged magicka DDs per raid that will use the staff) which is ironic considering we have to do "End Game" PvE to get the weapons. I will try to get in a group to run the trial and get achievements and all that, but I was hoping it would be much more appealing than it is currently.

My poor magicka DK is still reliant on "Off Balance" for any decent DPS and will get pushed out by any Stamina build in a raid since they do more DPS and don't consume "Off Balance" as much with their rotations. Unfortunately Magicka Templars are in the same boat...

I learned that sticking with the class that is in the "dog house" is an exercise in masochism and I might as well switch classes to one of the more effective ones (it may be several months and multiple patch cycles before they address an under-performing class). On the bright side I am finally getting around to using my Stamplar this patch.

I really hope they will take your feedback and it will influence the direction the game is going a little bit.

Another funny thing, it takes 120 cps into attro to get a decent off balance trigger that's better done by stam players, Considering you must put 75 into thaum (stam constelation) to get exploiter, DKs need 195 just to have a reliable burst... and that leaves you with like 20 cps to be put into the apprentice tree (where are located most of the magicka dmg bonus).

A well rounded stam build wearing Truth armor gets much better results and loses no points into the magicka constelation.

Balance?

Nebthet78

NBrookus wrote: »

The nerfs will continue as a long as there is an open-ended buff each patch in the form of CP. Totally agree with Joy though -- nerfing class identity leads to a boring game. The reverse-physcology buffs this patch in particular.

If they would bring soft and hard caps back to the game, CP wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue as it would become redundant to put more points into something you are not going to get anything out of. CP should have been used in a way to work around the weaknesses in your characters and eventually make up for their shortcomings, but because things have been designed the way they have, requiring DPS checks, etc. Every one goes for mass power and then people whine and complain about it in PVP land because they hate losing to others and everything gets nerfed.

I'm still convinced they are trying to ruin their own game so they can go work on their new MMO and leave ESO on autopilot as much as possible.

As for end game players, many are leaving. Many are sick of this nerfing crap and are not liking the direction of this game is going. Many are just biding their time here until something better or at least newer is released.
And if ZOS thinks that it's okay, because there are many new accounts being sold, so new players coming in.. I have to wonder just how many of those are bot accounts.

I agree with you OP... You cannot keep nerfing things. You can't keep taking away a players progress. It's obvious, especially after the Heavy Armor nerf that you have no clue what you are doing and only do things for the short term and not the long term of this game. Wrath passive was given to compensate for the blocking nerf... now Wrath passive is being taken away with no replacement. Did you think we were going to forget about that??

Over 10 years ago I told Sears Canada employees they would be out of a job by 2020... I'm seeing the same mistrakes happening with ESO as a game with it's developers as I saw Sears Canada making as a retailer with the same arrogance of not listening to the knowledgable customers about what is happening and how it can be fixed.

dpencil1

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Wrobel
The OP by Joy and many of the responses in this thread represent thoughtful and articulate feedback regarding the state of ESO and it's current direction in terms of combat balance. If you want to foster a healthier relationship between the dev team and the player base, you need to:
1. Acknowledge that the concerns cited here are something you are aware of.
2. Respond with convincing arguments as to why these concerns are unfounded, or own up to these issues and provide some insight as to how you intend to correct them (hint: asking for and taking ideas from the community is a perfectly good response).

The goodwill of the community could literally be restored immediately if there was a genuine sense of collaboration and transparency with regard to combat balance. Dev notes in the patch notes are a plus. Dev posts like those Wrobel did in each official thread are a plus. But neither of these actually respond to what thoughtful community members are saying. We are being talked at, not talked with. There is no follow-up, no dialogue, and therefore no sense that the community is having any meaningful impact on the decision-making process.

elfantasmo

dpencil1 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Wrobel
The OP by Joy and many of the responses in this thread represent thoughtful and articulate feedback regarding the state of ESO and it's current direction in terms of combat balance. If you want to foster a healthier relationship between the dev team and the player base, you need to:
1. Acknowledge that the concerns cited here are something you are aware of.
2. Respond with convincing arguments as to why these concerns are unfounded, or own up to these issues and provide some insight as to how you intend to correct them (hint: asking for and taking ideas from the community is a perfectly good response).

The goodwill of the community could literally be restored immediately if there was a genuine sense of collaboration and transparency with regard to combat balance. Dev notes in the patch notes are a plus. Dev posts like those Wrobel did in each official thread are a plus. But neither of these actually respond to what thoughtful community members are saying. We are being talked at, not talked with. There is no follow-up, no dialogue, and therefore no sense that the community is having any meaningful impact on the decision-making process.

This will never happen, sad as it is.

Aionna

I agree with everything mentioned in this post.

The game is beautiful and the quests engaging and clockwork city will be the same. Yet with every patch things become more more depressing when it comes to classes , itemization and game mechanics .

I wish they did an eso live and give some details about what they are planning to do with classes .

ak_pvp

I don't mind nerfs, hell the base morrowind patch was one of the better changes with sustain nerfs. I mind blanket nerfs done for the sake of "balance." (Inane homogenization and failure to tackle an issues.) That end up killing entire specs.

AverageJo3Gam3r

Sorcs haven't been nerfed since the game was released. They get one small nerf and the forums go haywire. Remember the last time this happened when they proposed changes to velicous curse and it ended up getting a huge buff? The sorc whine game is strong.

Don't worry sorcs. You'll join the legions of DKs and Templars that have been through this before. You'll adapt and be fine.

ForsakenSin

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Sorcs haven't been nerfed since the game was released. They get one small nerf and the forums go haywire. Remember the last time this happened when they proposed changes to velicous curse and it ended up getting a huge buff? The sorc whine game is strong.

Don't worry sorcs. You'll join the legions of DKs and Templars that have been through this before. You'll adapt and be fine.

umm i dont know how long you have been playing a game for... but sorcs have been nerferd allot of times due to pvp .. yes maybe not as much as other classes but for you to say "Sorcs haven't been nerfed since the game was released" clearly shows me

Alaztor91

IIRC ZOS said a while ago that content releases for the game would follow a pattern:

- 1 ''Chapter'' update, 1 QoL update, 1 Story DLC and 1 Dungeon DLC per year.

This year those would be Homestead(QoL), Morrowind(Chapter),Horns of the Reach(Dungeon DLC) and Clockwork City(Story DLC)

My GUESS is that for the next QoL update they will make some drastic class changes involving class homogenization with the whole 1 heal, 1 tank, 1 dps skill line they mentioned a while ago and that they are slowly starting to change skills/morphs to fit that goal(the agony rework for the siphoning ''heal tree'' for example).

Mureel

Aedaryl wrote: »

Well, ZoS make a lot of nerfs, and most of them are needed. If you take the meta in EU it's zerg of 40% templar, with 30% Dk, 10% sorc, 15% NB and 5% warden.

Every one is tanky and have it's poket healer, in zerg NB are just destro machine and sorc Negate one. Even if you take small group, it's 80% of the time tanky player runing togever.

ZoS nerfed wrath, locked shuffle, and it's good things.

The weird point is like you said, about class skills : nobody asked for a fear nerf, a petrify nerf, or a frag nerf.

ZoS is trying making other morph/skills more appealing, that's why they nerfed fear, for make the other better, petrify is nerfed for make stone fist valuable and frag is nerf for make rune cage more appealing.

But well, ZoS should stop nerf class abilities for make other underused better. Buff the bad morph/skill, don't nerf the good one.

But the worst class nerf is the crystal frag one. As a sorc you need to delete your utility skill for slotting rune cage.

Crystal frag was used as the stun of the curse/frag/fury combo, and was used for some nice combo like heavy attack + frag + fury, or as an emergency stun, for going from the defensive to offensive mode.

You need to slot rune cage for making the job of the old crystal frag. You also lost a 1s - meaning 1 foce pulse in your rotation, since the stun is not in your damage anymore.

Some people think it's a buff because rune cage is undodgeable and unblocable, but streak is already undogeable and rune cage was already unblocable.

He's not talking about PVP and 'wah they can one shot me I wanna one shot them too!' He's talking about how the classes are just so bland and boring now compared to launch. PVE and PVP.

Mureel

@Joy_Division Hey- I've said this but much less detailed over the years on my other acct (Islyn) and I agree 100%. Well said.

Aedaryl

Mureel wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Well, ZoS make a lot of nerfs, and most of them are needed. If you take the meta in EU it's zerg of 40% templar, with 30% Dk, 10% sorc, 15% NB and 5% warden.

Every one is tanky and have it's poket healer, in zerg NB are just destro machine and sorc Negate one. Even if you take small group, it's 80% of the time tanky player runing togever.

ZoS nerfed wrath, locked shuffle, and it's good things.

The weird point is like you said, about class skills : nobody asked for a fear nerf, a petrify nerf, or a frag nerf.

ZoS is trying making other morph/skills more appealing, that's why they nerfed fear, for make the other better, petrify is nerfed for make stone fist valuable and frag is nerf for make rune cage more appealing.

But well, ZoS should stop nerf class abilities for make other underused better. Buff the bad morph/skill, don't nerf the good one.

But the worst class nerf is the crystal frag one. As a sorc you need to delete your utility skill for slotting rune cage.

Crystal frag was used as the stun of the curse/frag/fury combo, and was used for some nice combo like heavy attack + frag + fury, or as an emergency stun, for going from the defensive to offensive mode.

You need to slot rune cage for making the job of the old crystal frag. You also lost a 1s - meaning 1 foce pulse in your rotation, since the stun is not in your damage anymore.

Some people think it's a buff because rune cage is undodgeable and unblocable, but streak is already undogeable and rune cage was already unblocable.

He's not talking about PVP and 'wah they can one shot me I wanna one shot them too!' He's talking about how the classes are just so bland and boring now compared to launch. PVE and PVP.

All Class nerf are PvP oriented, that's why he is talking about PvP, also, if pvp is for you a one shot game, you should log on and learn what's PvP.

JWillCHS

Alaztor91 wrote: »

IIRC ZOS said a while ago that content releases for the game would follow a pattern:

- 1 ''Chapter'' update, 1 QoL update, 1 Story DLC and 1 Dungeon DLC per year.

This year those would be Homestead(QoL), Morrowind(Chapter),Horns of the Reach(Dungeon DLC) and Clockwork City(Story DLC)

My GUESS is that for the next QoL update they will make some drastic class changes involving class homogenization with the whole 1 heal, 1 tank, 1 dps skill line they mentioned a while ago and that they are slowly starting to change skills/morphs to fit that goal(the agony rework for the siphoning ''heal tree'' for example).

I find it nearly impossible to make this game "balanced" or to satisfy people considering the amount of options available to customize how you play. Every skill can be morphed into two separate abilities, there's a ridiculous amount armor sets with no class limits, outside of class skills anything else can be used by other players with varying success, then there's the champion point system, mundus stones, enchantments, and traits.

Don't get me wrong. I love theorycrafting in this game. But if I was a developer working at ZoS, especially when it comes to working on balancing skills, I would have quit a long time ago. This game will become more balanced when you not only have class skill trees dedicated to specific roles, but also when players are forced to choose only one of 3 skill lines to use at any given time. Doesn't that sound lovely.

Like.....things really need to change. But I know when they do I'll be gone. I love BGs especially because it is no-CP. To balance that with CP PvP is extra time and money. And ZoS has invested time and money into a system that a majority favors. I know if both options were available it would take longer to enter no-CP matches because our PvP community is not only small but shrinking.

This is not a traditional MMORPG. That's why we like it. But !@#$%, its nearly impossible to fix things without making some serious changes that people will disagree with.

But this is just how I feel...

Last night I tried Pirate Skeleton, Soulshine, and Wizard's Riposte in BGs on my Templar. I could tank, heal, and do damage? GTFO! >)

Like...that should not be a thing in my opinion...

Subversus

JWillCHS wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

IIRC ZOS said a while ago that content releases for the game would follow a pattern:

- 1 ''Chapter'' update, 1 QoL update, 1 Story DLC and 1 Dungeon DLC per year.

This year those would be Homestead(QoL), Morrowind(Chapter),Horns of the Reach(Dungeon DLC) and Clockwork City(Story DLC)

My GUESS is that for the next QoL update they will make some drastic class changes involving class homogenization with the whole 1 heal, 1 tank, 1 dps skill line they mentioned a while ago and that they are slowly starting to change skills/morphs to fit that goal(the agony rework for the siphoning ''heal tree'' for example).

I find it nearly impossible to make this game "balanced" or to satisfy people considering the amount of options available to customize how you play. Every skills can be morphed into two separate abilities, there's a ridiculous amount armor sets with no class limits, outside of class skills anything else can be used by other players with varying success, then there's the champion point system, mundus stones, enchantments, and traits.

Don't get me wrong. I love theorycrafting in this game. But if I was a developer working at ZoS, especially when it comes to working on balancing skills, I would have quit a long time ago. This game will become more balanced when you not only have class skill trees dedicated to specific roles, but also when players are forced to choose only one of 3 skill lines to use at any given time. Doesn't that sound lovely.

Like.....things really need to change. But I know when they do I'll be gone. I love BGs especially because it is no-CP. But to balance that with CP PvP is extra time and money. And ZoS has invested time and money into a system that a majority favors. I know if both options were available it would take longer to enter no-CP matches because our PvP community is not only small but shrinking.

This is not a traditional MMORPG. That's why we like it. But !@#$%, its nearly impossible to fix without making some serious changes that people will disagree with.

But this just how I feel...

Funny that you say that... the game was relatively fine when we didn't have cp and still had soft caps, a few minor changes to certain OP abilities and/or mechanics and it would've been great.

Xvorg

Anyone remembers why they took away softcaps?

CyrusArya

Xvorg wrote: »

Anyone remembers why they took away softcaps?

Cus soft caps are lame and resulted in homogenous game play. They limit builds and play styles.

If I wanna build 5000 damage at the cost of sustain I should be allowed to do so, instead of being artificially capped.

Nebthet78

CyrusArya wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Anyone remembers why they took away softcaps?

Cus soft caps are lame and resulted in homogenous game play. They limit builds and play styles.

If I wanna build 5000 damage at the cost of sustain I should be allowed to do so, instead of being artificially capped.

And yet, they are homogenizing the game as it is to make all classes the same and thus limiting play styles and gear used and forcing end game players into cookie cutter builds and dumbing down the game.

I would have preferred the soft caps over what we have now and where we are heading next.

Derra

Nebthet78 wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Anyone remembers why they took away softcaps?

Cus soft caps are lame and resulted in homogenous game play. They limit builds and play styles.

If I wanna build 5000 damage at the cost of sustain I should be allowed to do so, instead of being artificially capped.

And yet, they are homogenizing the game as it is to make all classes the same and thus limiting play styles and gear used and forcing end game players into cookie cutter builds and dumbing down the game.

I would have preferred the soft caps over what we have now and where we are heading next.

I don´t even feel that much of a difference between 1.5 and what we have now. Everyone was 1h shield tanky af back then and now everyone is 1h + shield tanky af again.

Admittedly there is a tiny bit more variency currently than what 1.5 had - but i´m sure zos will gut that too :P

JWillCHS

Subversus wrote: »

Funny that you say that... the game was relatively fine when we didn't have cp and still had soft caps, a few minor changes to certain OP abilities and/or mechanics and it would've been great.

I agree that the game was more manageable prior to CP and the soft caps. But there is still a lot to balance around. When you make a change it shouldn't be crippling. Templar is my main, and every patch I have to completely change the way I play for better or worse. It also help me understand the game more.

Kilandros

CyrusArya wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Anyone remembers why they took away softcaps?

Cus soft caps are lame and resulted in homogenous game play. They limit builds and play styles.

If I wanna build 5000 damage at the cost of sustain I should be allowed to do so, instead of being artificially capped.

Softcaps actually granted the most build diversity this game ever had because builds would utilize both stamina and magicka abilities. A lot of people like to forget (or just weren't here pre 1.6) but pretty much every build relied heavily on magicka and stamina instead of just solely one resource. The biggest diversity restriction back then wasn't softcaps--it was that there weren't any stamina-based class morphs.

Minno

Kilandros wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Anyone remembers why they took away softcaps?

Cus soft caps are lame and resulted in homogenous game play. They limit builds and play styles.

If I wanna build 5000 damage at the cost of sustain I should be allowed to do so, instead of being artificially capped.

Softcaps actually granted the most build diversity this game ever had because builds would utilize both stamina and magicka abilities. A lot of people like to forget (or just weren't here pre 1.6) but pretty much every build relied heavily on magicka and stamina instead of just solely one resource. The biggest diversity restriction back then wasn't softcaps--it was that there weren't any stamina-based class morphs.

I can agree, though i was a terrible dual weld magplar trying to use mostly DW skills and all my stats were split back then .

Subversus

Minno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Anyone remembers why they took away softcaps?

Cus soft caps are lame and resulted in homogenous game play. They limit builds and play styles.

If I wanna build 5000 damage at the cost of sustain I should be allowed to do so, instead of being artificially capped.

Softcaps actually granted the most build diversity this game ever had because builds would utilize both stamina and magicka abilities. A lot of people like to forget (or just weren't here pre 1.6) but pretty much every build relied heavily on magicka and stamina instead of just solely one resource. The biggest diversity restriction back then wasn't softcaps--it was that there weren't any stamina-based class morphs.

I can agree, though i was a terrible dual weld magplar trying to use mostly DW skills and all my stats were split back then .

I was a dual wield khajiit "stamblade" using mostly mag abilities... later deleted and rerolled to high elf cause it wasn't working out hahahaha (and high elves are hawt!)