Twins are overkill (vet maw)

Trashkan

Trials used to be fun now it's like synchronized swimming with a dps test. No matter how good you are as a gamer you will only be as good as your weakest link and if someone screws up or is out of position the dominos come falling down.

Dps checks are stupid when only 3 builds can complete your test. Fix it and 99% of eso will no longer be scared to run trials again. Leave the leaderboards for the elite trial guilds.

After spending 500 hours in maw without beating the twins is when I say enough. Our group has the dance down so well but without high dps it actually gets harder because ads start to pile up.


Here's my argument the Twins fight is very mechanic heavy and to even get these mechanics down it takes time i mean alot of time with a completely new group. Most groups who can perform the dps test don't have to deal with 4 ads or at least don't have to kill them. They can just chain away from group while you burn the last 5%. So these groups who are really good actually have it easier because more dps equals less ad waves and less ads in general. So you get a group with a little less dps. They suffer because damage is lower, ads are harder to kill and you cram more down there throat.

It kinda reminds me of the credit industry. You know the more you have the lower your interest rate is and the easier payments are. Typically people with more dps get lower interest rates. Lmao

Horowonnoe

Trashkan wrote: »

Trials used to be fun now it's like synchronized swimming with a dps test. No matter how good you are as a gamer you will only be as good as your weakest link and if someone screws up or is out of position the dominos come falling down.

Dps checks are stupid when only 3 builds can complete your test. Fix it and 99% of eso will no longer be scared to run trials again. Leave the leaderboards for the elite trial guilds.

After spending 500 hours in maw without beating the twins is when I say enough. Our group has the dance down so well but without high dps it actually gets harder because ads start to pile up.


Here's my argument the Twins fight is very mechanic heavy and to even get these mechanics down it takes time i mean alot of time with a completely new group. Most groups who can perform the dps test don't have to deal with 4 ads or at least don't have to kill them. They can just chain away from group while you burn the last 5%. So these groups who are really good actually have it easier because more dps equals less ad waves and less ads in general. So you get a group with a little less dps. They suffer because damage is lower, ads are harder to kill and you cram more down there throat.

It kinda reminds me of the credit industry. You know the more you have the lower your interest rate is and the easier payments are. Typically people with more dps get lower interest rates. Lmao

Well i mean, there are always normal trials.

Asardes

Reminds me about the story with the fox and the grapes.

Trashkan

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Trials used to be fun now it's like synchronized swimming with a dps test. No matter how good you are as a gamer you will only be as good as your weakest link and if someone screws up or is out of position the dominos come falling down.

Dps checks are stupid when only 3 builds can complete your test. Fix it and 99% of eso will no longer be scared to run trials again. Leave the leaderboards for the elite trial guilds.

After spending 500 hours in maw without beating the twins is when I say enough. Our group has the dance down so well but without high dps it actually gets harder because ads start to pile up.


Here's my argument the Twins fight is very mechanic heavy and to even get these mechanics down it takes time i mean alot of time with a completely new group. Most groups who can perform the dps test don't have to deal with 4 ads or at least don't have to kill them. They can just chain away from group while you burn the last 5%. So these groups who are really good actually have it easier because more dps equals less ad waves and less ads in general. So you get a group with a little less dps. They suffer because damage is lower, ads are harder to kill and you cram more down there throat.

It kinda reminds me of the credit industry. You know the more you have the lower your interest rate is and the easier payments are. Typically people with more dps get lower interest rates. Lmao

Well i mean, there are always normal trials.

Lmao you mean 3 man with my buds na I'm over that.

VaranisArano

Groups with higher DPS will always find content to be easier.

I mean, I look at some of the PUGs I tank for in normal dungeons. Many of them don't have the DPS to burn through the bosses, so they have to learn the mechanics. My friend group I tank for does have the DPS, and so we burn through the dungeons.

Look at Vet City of Ash II. That dungeon requires a certain level of DPS. My friend group and I didn't have enough DPS to make it easy, so we faced a long hard slog to the final boss, wiping repeatedly until we figured out how to maximize our DPS on certain targets. A group with higher DPS wouldn't have half as much trouble.

But the question here is how should ZOS balance their content. Should they balance it for the DPS who do 10-15kDPS, or the new players who do less? Should they balance it for the players that do 15-25k DPS or the players who do 40K+ DPS? This game contains all those players.

The reason ZOS keeps moving things in a direction of "raiding the floor, lowering the ceiling" is because they have to have content for all players, from the new guys who have no clue what a rotation is to the players dissatisfied when they only get 35k DPS. In an environment like that, of course Vet Trials are hard!

Horowonnoe

Trashkan wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Trials used to be fun now it's like synchronized swimming with a dps test. No matter how good you are as a gamer you will only be as good as your weakest link and if someone screws up or is out of position the dominos come falling down.

Dps checks are stupid when only 3 builds can complete your test. Fix it and 99% of eso will no longer be scared to run trials again. Leave the leaderboards for the elite trial guilds.

After spending 500 hours in maw without beating the twins is when I say enough. Our group has the dance down so well but without high dps it actually gets harder because ads start to pile up.


Here's my argument the Twins fight is very mechanic heavy and to even get these mechanics down it takes time i mean alot of time with a completely new group. Most groups who can perform the dps test don't have to deal with 4 ads or at least don't have to kill them. They can just chain away from group while you burn the last 5%. So these groups who are really good actually have it easier because more dps equals less ad waves and less ads in general. So you get a group with a little less dps. They suffer because damage is lower, ads are harder to kill and you cram more down there throat.

It kinda reminds me of the credit industry. You know the more you have the lower your interest rate is and the easier payments are. Typically people with more dps get lower interest rates. Lmao

Well i mean, there are always normal trials.

Lmao you mean 3 man with my buds na I'm over that.

If you can 3man normal trials with your buds, i find it hard to believe you can't clear vMoL twins in 500 hours of playtime. That's a LOT of twins right there O_o

iam117

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Trials used to be fun now it's like synchronized swimming with a dps test. No matter how good you are as a gamer you will only be as good as your weakest link and if someone screws up or is out of position the dominos come falling down.

Dps checks are stupid when only 3 builds can complete your test. Fix it and 99% of eso will no longer be scared to run trials again. Leave the leaderboards for the elite trial guilds.

After spending 500 hours in maw without beating the twins is when I say enough. Our group has the dance down so well but without high dps it actually gets harder because ads start to pile up.


Here's my argument the Twins fight is very mechanic heavy and to even get these mechanics down it takes time i mean alot of time with a completely new group. Most groups who can perform the dps test don't have to deal with 4 ads or at least don't have to kill them. They can just chain away from group while you burn the last 5%. So these groups who are really good actually have it easier because more dps equals less ad waves and less ads in general. So you get a group with a little less dps. They suffer because damage is lower, ads are harder to kill and you cram more down there throat.

It kinda reminds me of the credit industry. You know the more you have the lower your interest rate is and the easier payments are. Typically people with more dps get lower interest rates. Lmao

Well i mean, there are always normal trials.

Lmao you mean 3 man with my buds na I'm over that.

If you can 3man normal trials with your buds, i find it hard to believe you can't clear vMoL twins in 500 hours of playtime. That's a LOT of twins right there O_o

especially if you have the mechanics down that well

Beardimus

I don't like trials for this reason, makes it dull.

Trashkan

iam117 wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Trials used to be fun now it's like synchronized swimming with a dps test. No matter how good you are as a gamer you will only be as good as your weakest link and if someone screws up or is out of position the dominos come falling down.

Dps checks are stupid when only 3 builds can complete your test. Fix it and 99% of eso will no longer be scared to run trials again. Leave the leaderboards for the elite trial guilds.

After spending 500 hours in maw without beating the twins is when I say enough. Our group has the dance down so well but without high dps it actually gets harder because ads start to pile up.


Here's my argument the Twins fight is very mechanic heavy and to even get these mechanics down it takes time i mean alot of time with a completely new group. Most groups who can perform the dps test don't have to deal with 4 ads or at least don't have to kill them. They can just chain away from group while you burn the last 5%. So these groups who are really good actually have it easier because more dps equals less ad waves and less ads in general. So you get a group with a little less dps. They suffer because damage is lower, ads are harder to kill and you cram more down there throat.

It kinda reminds me of the credit industry. You know the more you have the lower your interest rate is and the easier payments are. Typically people with more dps get lower interest rates. Lmao

Well i mean, there are always normal trials.

Lmao you mean 3 man with my buds na I'm over that.

If you can 3man normal trials with your buds, i find it hard to believe you can't clear vMoL twins in 500 hours of playtime. That's a LOT of twins right there O_o

especially if you have the mechanics down that well

Ya have them down to the T. But if new members want to join then what??? Then the next time more new members? Then what?

Putting on good sets does not make you good. So hitting 35k dps does not make you good either. It's called you put on a meta build and did an easy heavy attack rotation. Trust me I'm a prime example. I only tank trials I lead the trials and every blue moon I get to dps. So I have maybe dps 20 vet trials tops. I went and leveled up a stam dk and over night I was the hardest hitting member in our group. Rolling 45k on the warrior. On the other hand you have my 2 dps buds who have ran dps for my tank for 3 years. With the latest update there sorcs builds were trashed and now I double there dps. Like wtf?


So you tell me I'm more skilled at a dps role then them? NO I am not it's called meta build with unlimited sustain. So these dps test are stupid when you consider the sustain nerf with T1. If they make trials harder and and limit the number of builds that are effective in end game pve? The real test is mechanics not wearing the right set of armor. Don't get me wrong you need somewhat of a build to compete. But mechanics are everything and I would like to see that incorporated more than just dps test.

iam117

Trashkan wrote: »

iam117 wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Trials used to be fun now it's like synchronized swimming with a dps test. No matter how good you are as a gamer you will only be as good as your weakest link and if someone screws up or is out of position the dominos come falling down.

Dps checks are stupid when only 3 builds can complete your test. Fix it and 99% of eso will no longer be scared to run trials again. Leave the leaderboards for the elite trial guilds.

After spending 500 hours in maw without beating the twins is when I say enough. Our group has the dance down so well but without high dps it actually gets harder because ads start to pile up.


Here's my argument the Twins fight is very mechanic heavy and to even get these mechanics down it takes time i mean alot of time with a completely new group. Most groups who can perform the dps test don't have to deal with 4 ads or at least don't have to kill them. They can just chain away from group while you burn the last 5%. So these groups who are really good actually have it easier because more dps equals less ad waves and less ads in general. So you get a group with a little less dps. They suffer because damage is lower, ads are harder to kill and you cram more down there throat.

It kinda reminds me of the credit industry. You know the more you have the lower your interest rate is and the easier payments are. Typically people with more dps get lower interest rates. Lmao

Well i mean, there are always normal trials.

Lmao you mean 3 man with my buds na I'm over that.

If you can 3man normal trials with your buds, i find it hard to believe you can't clear vMoL twins in 500 hours of playtime. That's a LOT of twins right there O_o

especially if you have the mechanics down that well

Ya have them down to the T. But if new members want to join then what??? Then the next time more new members? Then what?

Putting on good sets does not make you good. So hitting 35k dps does not make you good either. It's called you put on a meta build and did an easy heavy attack rotation. Trust me I'm a prime example. I only tank trials I lead the trials and every blue moon I get to dps. So I have maybe dps 20 vet trials tops. I went and leveled up a stam dk and over night I was the hardest hitting member in our group. Rolling 45k on the warrior. On the other hand you have my 2 dps buds who have ran dps for my tank for 3 years. With the latest update there sorcs builds were trashed and now I double there dps. Like wtf?


So you tell me I'm more skilled at a dps role then them? NO I am not it's called meta build with unlimited sustain. So these dps test are stupid when you consider the sustain nerf with T1. If they make trials harder and and limit the number of builds that are effective in end game pve? The real test is mechanics not wearing the right set of armor. Don't get me wrong you need somewhat of a build to compete. But mechanics are everything and I would like to see that incorporated more than just dps test.

its sounds more like keeping a consistent group is the issue, and if thats the case then its not the mechanics that are the issue. Retraining people over and over is. And while it makes teh mechanics a pain, it also should be noted that it should take work to complete it, ergo those new people need to work to learn it and earn it. sucks for the rest of the group that has already put in the time, but it wouldnt be fun if the first time you came in you just blew through it. maybe work on getting a more consistent group? you could also try to have tanks/dps/heals slot deep breath, not really sure tbh. i know that the first time i cleared it it we put tons of hours into the twins fight, with the same group. it was a brand new guild, and none of us were the "absolute top" able to take down and dps check at the time. consistency was key. the nights we had the same people went well, add in a couple subs and it tanked.

Trashkan

My point is why? Why so hard? Why would I ever want to learn another trial ever again? Used to be fun when progression was a thing. It is at a stand still and it's the only content left in the game left for me. Drives me nuts. I have built 2 additional toons basically for VMAW just for a completion but never get to use them because tbh no one in my group wants to bring another tank. Do you blame them? I guess I'm just ranting but honestly never been so mad at a game in my life. I think it's time to take a break. 1 more run for me. I'll give it my all.

Horowonnoe

Trashkan wrote: »

My point is why? Why so hard? Why would I ever want to learn another trial ever again? Used to be fun when progression was a thing. It is at a stand still and it's the only content left in the game left for me. Drives me nuts. I have built 2 additional toons basically for VMAW just for a completion but never get to use them because tbh no one in my group wants to bring another tank. Do you blame them? I guess I'm just ranting but honestly never been so mad at a game in my life. I think it's time to take a break. 1 more run for me. I'll give it my all.

As Liv3 said, your issue is not having a consistent group, not the difficulty of trials.
It seems the people you run with are what is causing your discontent. Have you tried running with different groups?
If you are a good tank, those are certainly in demand. Once someone finds out you tank, and tank well, you won't be able to fight off those trials invitations.

Are you on NA? Maybe join another trials guild?

Horowonnoe

Trashkan wrote: »

My point is why? Why so hard? Why would I ever want to learn another trial ever again? Used to be fun when progression was a thing. It is at a stand still and it's the only content left in the game left for me. Drives me nuts. I have built 2 additional toons basically for VMAW just for a completion but never get to use them because tbh no one in my group wants to bring another tank. Do you blame them? I guess I'm just ranting but honestly never been so mad at a game in my life. I think it's time to take a break. 1 more run for me. I'll give it my all.

And FYI progression is still a thing in guilds that have constant roster

iam117

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

My point is why? Why so hard? Why would I ever want to learn another trial ever again? Used to be fun when progression was a thing. It is at a stand still and it's the only content left in the game left for me. Drives me nuts. I have built 2 additional toons basically for VMAW just for a completion but never get to use them because tbh no one in my group wants to bring another tank. Do you blame them? I guess I'm just ranting but honestly never been so mad at a game in my life. I think it's time to take a break. 1 more run for me. I'll give it my all.

As Liv3 said, your issue is not having a consistent group, not the difficulty of trials.
It seems the people you run with are what is causing your discontent. Have you tried running with different groups?
If you are a good tank, those are certainly in demand. Once someone finds out you tank, and tank well, you won't be able to fight off those trials invitations.

Are you on NA? Maybe join another trials guild?

this. good tanks are always in short supply.

Trashkan

Really I don't have the time to run in more than one trial guild we run twice a week 3 hours a run. Plus the guild that I run with is loyal and have been with for three years running trials. We used to be the guild that was top 10 leaderboards all the time when trials were a thing. But sadly many members have come and gone.

That's another thing why should i have to join another guild? The members who have stuck around for the longhaul should have completed this by now they have put the time the effort in to it. This game makes people elitist and destroy your moral compass with the way you have to tell people no sorry you only pull 23k dps you are no good to us anymore step your game up and come back. Or no sorry you don't have a sorc or a mdk goodbye. The members that stay loyal will always have a spot in my raids.

Horowonnoe

Trashkan wrote: »

Really I don't have the time to run in more than one trial guild we run twice a week 3 hours a run. Plus the guild that I run with is loyal and have been with for three years running trials. We used to be the guild that was top 10 leaderboards all the time when trials were a thing. But sadly many members have come and gone.

That's another thing why should i have to join another guild? The members who have stuck around for the longhaul should have completed this by now they have put the time the effort in to it. This game makes people elitist and destroy your moral compass with the way you have to tell people no sorry you only pull 23k dps you are no good to us anymore step your game up and come back. Or no sorry you don't have a sorc or a mdk goodbye. The members that stay loyal will always have a spot in my raids.

Well in that case, i don't know what you are complaining about or if there is even help for you in your situation. Seems like you are complaining for the sake of venting and don't really want to improve your situation.

At this point, these are your options:

• Accept your team as is, accept that you are not going to get top leaderboard spots with your group pulling 200k (example number). Have fun. Have a drink and don't worry about leaderboards or clearing.
• Train your team. Ask them to improve. Set benchmarks and requirements for the roles. Pull your hair out as they don't improve and stagnate. Continue on. Complain on forums. Do nothing.
• Recruit better people and make them do DPS tests. Kick people who don't meet the criteria of their role and are not improving or refuse to improve.
• Leave the guild and join a new, better guild that better matches your goals in the game and has similar minded people that want to push scores and clear content.
• Uninstall and go play PUBG, BDO of whatever the FOTD MMO is. Don't forget to give away your gold and items if you choose this options.

Hope this helps.

Larsay

Should have stayed in CAE, we clear every week... couple times a night when we feel feisty .

Drummerx04

Trashkan wrote: »

Really I don't have the time to run in more than one trial guild we run twice a week 3 hours a run. Plus the guild that I run with is loyal and have been with for three years running trials. We used to be the guild that was top 10 leaderboards all the time when trials were a thing. But sadly many members have come and gone.

That's another thing why should i have to join another guild? The members who have stuck around for the longhaul should have completed this by now they have put the time the effort in to it. This game makes people elitist and destroy your moral compass with the way you have to tell people no sorry you only pull 23k dps you are no good to us anymore step your game up and come back. Or no sorry you don't have a sorc or a mdk goodbye. The members that stay loyal will always have a spot in my raids.

Trials are a funny thing. It's a bit much to say that EVERY member of your team has to perform at ultra peak efficiency, but you do need enough of your members to be efficient. No dps should be as low as 23k with all the adds that you can AoE. Just use good chain positioning of the Adds and a destro ult here and there to burn them when needed.

My group doesn't have HUGE dps, but we can usually clear out the twins without too much trouble (as in by the time the 3 add phase comes around the bosses are well into execute range)

As others have said, it's about having a consistent group. It's truly amazing how much of a difference 2 different dps can make, but at the same time you have to crack down at some point. If they aren't pulling the numbers, you need to find out why. Often it's a matter of failing to stay alive.

code65536

Trashkan wrote: »

Really I don't have the time to run in more than one trial guild we run twice a week 3 hours a run. Plus the guild that I run with is loyal and have been with for three years running trials. We used to be the guild that was top 10 leaderboards all the time when trials were a thing. But sadly many members have come and gone.

That's another thing why should i have to join another guild? The members who have stuck around for the longhaul should have completed this by now they have put the time the effort in to it. This game makes people elitist and destroy your moral compass with the way you have to tell people no sorry you only pull 23k dps you are no good to us anymore step your game up and come back. Or no sorry you don't have a sorc or a mdk goodbye. The members that stay loyal will always have a spot in my raids.

You don't have to go kick anyone. If someone is pulling bad DPS, find out why. Sit them in front of a target dummy, and see what they're doing wrong. Bad choice of rotation? Missed weaves? Bad execution of rotation? Etc. If they are "loyal", then they'd want to put in the effort to help the team, and low DPS is a problem that can be fixed with effort and troubleshooting.

But for the twins fight in particular, yes, it is a very poorly-designed fight. I first started working on the twins last spring, right after Maw was released. We got past the first boss very quickly (we had killed it on the PTS), and then we were stuck on twins for the entire patch. And it wasn't just us. There was only one guild on PC/NA (the top competitive guild on the server) that managed to kill twins during the Thieves Guild patch, and I know at least a couple of guilds that fell apart because of the twins frustration. We tried all sorts of ***, like loading the group with 4 or 5 mDKs, but in the end, once the 4 add phase started, everything fell apart.

We became the third guild on PC/NA to clear vMoL. That happened around the end of June or start of July. And vMoL was released in early March. So it took us months (and despite taking months, we were still the third on the server to do it), and the vast majority of that time was spent on twins--once we got to Rakkhat, it only took us a couple of weeks to get him down.

What eventually fixed it for us was higher DPS, partially enabled by the balance changes and power creep that the next patch enabled (as a point of reference, when Hodor got the world first vMoL speedrun, the best multi-target--not even single-target--DPS that they had on Rakkhat was about 32K, and now you'd see 60K). These days, the twins fight is "easy", in part because we refined our strats (doing a center burn on both bosses, not pulling the bosses too far apart, etc.) but in large part because DPS is miles ahead of where it used to be. But take away that power creep, and twins will quickly devolve back to the wipefest nightmare that it was. Not many people remember what vMoL was like when it was released, before the power creep. So twins is just fine, it's an easy fight, and you just have to git gud, etc. But really, it isn't--it's just that the flaws of the fight have been papered over by higher DPS and our complaints last year about the fight being cancerous are but a distant memory.

Asardes

Content in this game has a certain content order inherent to it:
Normal Dungeons
Veteran Dungeons
Normal Craglorn Trials
Veteran Dungeons IC
Veteran Dungeons SotH & HotR HM
Veteran Maelstrom & Craglorn Trials w/o HM & nMoL & nHoF
Veteran Craglorn Trials HM
Veteran MoL & HoF w/o HM
Veterna MoL & HoF HM

You should master one content difficulty level before moving to the next. If you are able to beat al Craglorn trials on HM then it's time to move to vMoL. At least that's how I see it.

Trashkan

code65536 wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Really I don't have the time to run in more than one trial guild we run twice a week 3 hours a run. Plus the guild that I run with is loyal and have been with for three years running trials. We used to be the guild that was top 10 leaderboards all the time when trials were a thing. But sadly many members have come and gone.

That's another thing why should i have to join another guild? The members who have stuck around for the longhaul should have completed this by now they have put the time the effort in to it. This game makes people elitist and destroy your moral compass with the way you have to tell people no sorry you only pull 23k dps you are no good to us anymore step your game up and come back. Or no sorry you don't have a sorc or a mdk goodbye. The members that stay loyal will always have a spot in my raids.

You don't have to go kick anyone. If someone is pulling bad DPS, find out why. Sit them in front of a target dummy, and see what they're doing wrong. Bad choice of rotation? Missed weaves? Bad execution of rotation? Etc. If they are "loyal", then they'd want to put in the effort to help the team, and low DPS is a problem that can be fixed with effort and troubleshooting.

But for the twins fight in particular, yes, it is a very poorly-designed fight. I first started working on the twins last spring, right after Maw was released. We got past the first boss very quickly (we had killed it on the PTS), and then we were stuck on twins for the entire patch. And it wasn't just us. There was only one guild on PC/NA (the top competitive guild on the server) that managed to kill twins during the Thieves Guild patch, and I know at least a couple of guilds that fell apart because of the twins frustration. We tried all sorts of ***, like loading the group with 4 or 5 mDKs, but in the end, once the 4 add phase started, everything fell apart.

We became the third guild on PC/NA to clear vMoL. That happened at the end of June or start of July. And vMoL was released in March. So it took us months (and despite taking months, we were still the third on the server to do it), and the vast majority of that time was spent on twins--once we got to Rakkhat, it only took us a couple of weeks to get him down.

What eventually fixed it for us was higher DPS, partially enabled by the balance changes and power creep that the next patch enabled (as a point of reference, when Hodor got the world first vMoL speedrun, the best multi-target--not even single-target--DPS that they had on Rakkhat was about 32K, and now you'd see 60K). These days, the twins fight is "easy", in part because we refined our strats (doing a center burn on both bosses, not pulling the bosses too far apart, etc.) but in large part because DPS is miles ahead of where it used to be. But take away that power creep, and twins will quickly devolve back to the wipefest nightmare that it was. Not many people remember what vMoL was like when it was released, before the power creep. So twins is just fine, it's an easy fight, and you just have to git gud, etc. But really, it isn't--it's just that the flaws of the fight have been papered over by higher DPS and our complaints last year about the fight being cancerous are but a distant memory.

My point exactly. You were one of the first to clear now it is super easy for you to clear. So the 95% player base in this game that really struggle with dps suffers. We had this fight cleared and were progressing great. Both bosses under 5% then T1 hit with its sustain nerf. It was almost like we had to learn it all over again. If Zos decides too go this direction not very many players will stick around. Even the good players leave because you raised the ceiling so high that finding just the right group is next to impossible sometimes. Leaving you with little to no player base left to run these trials. Trust me we are already there i used to grab pug groups and smash on hard modes. Why? Because we had more dedidcated players addicted to running trials and players that worked builds. Now it's just dead.

Trashkan

Asardes wrote: »

Content in this game has a certain content order inherent to it:
Normal Dungeons
Veteran Dungeons
Normal Craglorn Trials
Veteran Dungeons IC
Veteran Dungeons SotH & HotR HM
Veteran Maelstrom & Craglorn Trials w/o HM & nMoL & nHoF
Veteran Craglorn Trials HM
Veteran MoL & HoF w/o HM
Veterna MoL & HoF HM

You should master one content difficulty level before moving to the next. If you are able to beat al Craglorn trials on HM then it's time to move to vMoL. At least that's how I see it.

Beat all craglorn hm trials 2 years ago. Beat Vdsa when I was V14 and cleared vet maelstrom with all 3 toons. 500k score on 2 mag dks.

Trashkan

Larsay wrote: »

Should have stayed in CAE, we clear every week... couple times a night when we feel feisty .

I was happy to join your guild on the side until you told me that it's not a first come first serve if someone with a better parse shows up your out. This is the type of guild I avoid so it is what it is and that's why trials 2 years ago was in much greater demand.

Asardes

Trashkan wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Content in this game has a certain content order inherent to it:
Normal Dungeons
Veteran Dungeons
Normal Craglorn Trials
Veteran Dungeons IC
Veteran Dungeons SotH & HotR HM
Veteran Maelstrom & Craglorn Trials w/o HM & nMoL & nHoF
Veteran Craglorn Trials HM
Veteran MoL & HoF w/o HM
Veterna MoL & HoF HM

You should master one content difficulty level before moving to the next. If you are able to beat al Craglorn trials on HM then it's time to move to vMoL. At least that's how I see it.

Beat all craglorn hm trials 2 years ago. Beat Vdsa when I was V14 and cleared vet maelstrom with all 3 toons. 500k score on 2 mag dks.

2 years ago the Craglorn trials were VR14 while the players, all craftable and some of the dropped gear had already been upgraded to VR16/CP160. The Craglorn trials only got upgraded to CP160/VR16 last year: vSO in June, and the other 3 in October I think. They are much tougher now. vMoL took so much to master in march-june 2016 because people were used to the VR14 Craglorn trials and the jump from those was quite big. If you can beat vHRC and vAA HM consistently now (vSO is not noticeably harder with HM on) then vMoL will only take a bit more practice.

code65536

Trashkan wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Really I don't have the time to run in more than one trial guild we run twice a week 3 hours a run. Plus the guild that I run with is loyal and have been with for three years running trials. We used to be the guild that was top 10 leaderboards all the time when trials were a thing. But sadly many members have come and gone.

That's another thing why should i have to join another guild? The members who have stuck around for the longhaul should have completed this by now they have put the time the effort in to it. This game makes people elitist and destroy your moral compass with the way you have to tell people no sorry you only pull 23k dps you are no good to us anymore step your game up and come back. Or no sorry you don't have a sorc or a mdk goodbye. The members that stay loyal will always have a spot in my raids.

You don't have to go kick anyone. If someone is pulling bad DPS, find out why. Sit them in front of a target dummy, and see what they're doing wrong. Bad choice of rotation? Missed weaves? Bad execution of rotation? Etc. If they are "loyal", then they'd want to put in the effort to help the team, and low DPS is a problem that can be fixed with effort and troubleshooting.

But for the twins fight in particular, yes, it is a very poorly-designed fight. I first started working on the twins last spring, right after Maw was released. We got past the first boss very quickly (we had killed it on the PTS), and then we were stuck on twins for the entire patch. And it wasn't just us. There was only one guild on PC/NA (the top competitive guild on the server) that managed to kill twins during the Thieves Guild patch, and I know at least a couple of guilds that fell apart because of the twins frustration. We tried all sorts of ***, like loading the group with 4 or 5 mDKs, but in the end, once the 4 add phase started, everything fell apart.

We became the third guild on PC/NA to clear vMoL. That happened at the end of June or start of July. And vMoL was released in March. So it took us months (and despite taking months, we were still the third on the server to do it), and the vast majority of that time was spent on twins--once we got to Rakkhat, it only took us a couple of weeks to get him down.

What eventually fixed it for us was higher DPS, partially enabled by the balance changes and power creep that the next patch enabled (as a point of reference, when Hodor got the world first vMoL speedrun, the best multi-target--not even single-target--DPS that they had on Rakkhat was about 32K, and now you'd see 60K). These days, the twins fight is "easy", in part because we refined our strats (doing a center burn on both bosses, not pulling the bosses too far apart, etc.) but in large part because DPS is miles ahead of where it used to be. But take away that power creep, and twins will quickly devolve back to the wipefest nightmare that it was. Not many people remember what vMoL was like when it was released, before the power creep. So twins is just fine, it's an easy fight, and you just have to git gud, etc. But really, it isn't--it's just that the flaws of the fight have been papered over by higher DPS and our complaints last year about the fight being cancerous are but a distant memory.

My point exactly. You were one of the first to clear now it is super easy for you to clear. So the 95% player base in this game that really struggle with dps suffers. We had this fight cleared and were progressing great. Both bosses under 5% then T1 hit with its sustain nerf. It was almost like we had to learn it all over again. If Zos decides too go this direction not very many players will stick around. Even the good players leave because you raised the ceiling so high that finding just the right group is next to impossible sometimes. Leaving you with little to no player base left to run these trials. Trust me we are already there i used to grab pug groups and smash on hard modes. Why? Because we had more dedidcated players addicted to running trials and players that worked builds. Now it's just dead.

But you don't need to be elite in order to do DPS that's higher than what we were doing back in Spring 2016. When vMoL launched, the level of DPS needed to clear twins reliably was out of reach for most groups, but that is not the case any more.

When we were doing twins originally, total group DPS on that fight was well under 240K on the twins (Combat Metrics didn't exist back then, so I'm just estimating here). By the end of Homestead, we were looking at around 320K (though this is with an entirely different group of players since over a year had passed), and during Morrowind's launch week (so before we had a chance to adapt to Morrowind), it was 280K. Yes, Morrowind was a nerf initially and it's taken the community months and a shift to stam to get DPS back to pre-Morrowind levels, but even week-1 Morrowind DPS was stronger than Thieves Guild DPS.

Sit people down in front of dummies and troubleshoot DPS with them. Again, you don't need to be elite to do more than what groups were pulling in early 2016.

(I do agree that Morrowind was a piece of *** in the balance department, but that's another matter.)

Trashkan wrote: »

Beat all craglorn hm trials 2 years ago.

Back when the entire AA HM trial was a 7 minute fight that everyone could waltz through with PUGs? When the first boss would die before you could even do a full rotation? Yea, that doesn't count. The rescaled vAA HM (not non-HM) is actually quite tough and is as much of a DPS check (if not more) than twins.

Trashkan

Asardes wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Content in this game has a certain content order inherent to it:
Normal Dungeons
Veteran Dungeons
Normal Craglorn Trials
Veteran Dungeons IC
Veteran Dungeons SotH & HotR HM
Veteran Maelstrom & Craglorn Trials w/o HM & nMoL & nHoF
Veteran Craglorn Trials HM
Veteran MoL & HoF w/o HM
Veterna MoL & HoF HM

You should master one content difficulty level before moving to the next. If you are able to beat al Craglorn trials on HM then it's time to move to vMoL. At least that's how I see it.

Beat all craglorn hm trials 2 years ago. Beat Vdsa when I was V14 and cleared vet maelstrom with all 3 toons. 500k score on 2 mag dks.

2 years ago the Craglorn trials were VR14 while the players, all craftable and some of the dropped gear had already been upgraded to VR16/CP160. The Craglorn trials only got upgraded to CP160/VR16 last year: vSO in June, and the other 3 in October I think. They are much tougher now. vMoL took so much to master in march-june 2016 because people were used to the VR14 Craglorn trials and the jump from those was quite big. If you can beat vHRC and vAA HM consistently now (vSO is not noticeably harder with HM on) then vMoL will only take a bit more practice.

Trials are not tougher now they are now as hard as they used to be. S.o was like maw back the day so once again I was v14 when I beat all HM trials. Mantikora use to be the twins and no one could complete well a couple groups could. As for A.A and Hel Re they have always been a walk in the park.

Trashkan

code65536 wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Really I don't have the time to run in more than one trial guild we run twice a week 3 hours a run. Plus the guild that I run with is loyal and have been with for three years running trials. We used to be the guild that was top 10 leaderboards all the time when trials were a thing. But sadly many members have come and gone.

That's another thing why should i have to join another guild? The members who have stuck around for the longhaul should have completed this by now they have put the time the effort in to it. This game makes people elitist and destroy your moral compass with the way you have to tell people no sorry you only pull 23k dps you are no good to us anymore step your game up and come back. Or no sorry you don't have a sorc or a mdk goodbye. The members that stay loyal will always have a spot in my raids.

You don't have to go kick anyone. If someone is pulling bad DPS, find out why. Sit them in front of a target dummy, and see what they're doing wrong. Bad choice of rotation? Missed weaves? Bad execution of rotation? Etc. If they are "loyal", then they'd want to put in the effort to help the team, and low DPS is a problem that can be fixed with effort and troubleshooting.

But for the twins fight in particular, yes, it is a very poorly-designed fight. I first started working on the twins last spring, right after Maw was released. We got past the first boss very quickly (we had killed it on the PTS), and then we were stuck on twins for the entire patch. And it wasn't just us. There was only one guild on PC/NA (the top competitive guild on the server) that managed to kill twins during the Thieves Guild patch, and I know at least a couple of guilds that fell apart because of the twins frustration. We tried all sorts of ***, like loading the group with 4 or 5 mDKs, but in the end, once the 4 add phase started, everything fell apart.

We became the third guild on PC/NA to clear vMoL. That happened at the end of June or start of July. And vMoL was released in March. So it took us months (and despite taking months, we were still the third on the server to do it), and the vast majority of that time was spent on twins--once we got to Rakkhat, it only took us a couple of weeks to get him down.

What eventually fixed it for us was higher DPS, partially enabled by the balance changes and power creep that the next patch enabled (as a point of reference, when Hodor got the world first vMoL speedrun, the best multi-target--not even single-target--DPS that they had on Rakkhat was about 32K, and now you'd see 60K). These days, the twins fight is "easy", in part because we refined our strats (doing a center burn on both bosses, not pulling the bosses too far apart, etc.) but in large part because DPS is miles ahead of where it used to be. But take away that power creep, and twins will quickly devolve back to the wipefest nightmare that it was. Not many people remember what vMoL was like when it was released, before the power creep. So twins is just fine, it's an easy fight, and you just have to git gud, etc. But really, it isn't--it's just that the flaws of the fight have been papered over by higher DPS and our complaints last year about the fight being cancerous are but a distant memory.

My point exactly. You were one of the first to clear now it is super easy for you to clear. So the 95% player base in this game that really struggle with dps suffers. We had this fight cleared and were progressing great. Both bosses under 5% then T1 hit with its sustain nerf. It was almost like we had to learn it all over again. If Zos decides too go this direction not very many players will stick around. Even the good players leave because you raised the ceiling so high that finding just the right group is next to impossible sometimes. Leaving you with little to no player base left to run these trials. Trust me we are already there i used to grab pug groups and smash on hard modes. Why? Because we had more dedidcated players addicted to running trials and players that worked builds. Now it's just dead.

But you don't need to be elite in order to do DPS that's higher than what we were doing back in Spring 2016. When vMoL launched, the level of DPS needed to clear twins reliably was out of reach for most groups, but that is not the case any more.

When we were doing twins originally, total group DPS on that fight was well under 240K on the twins (Combat Metrics didn't exist back then, so I'm just estimating here). By the end of Homestead, we were looking at around 320K (though this is with an entirely different group of players since over a year had passed), and during Morrowind's launch week (so before we had a chance to adapt to Morrowind), it was 280K. Yes, Morrowind was a nerf initially and it's taken the community months and a shift to stam to get DPS back to pre-Morrowind levels, but even week-1 Morrowind DPS was stronger than Thieves Guild DPS.

Sit people down in front of dummies and troubleshoot DPS with them. Again, you don't need to be elite to do more than what groups were pulling in early 2016.

(I do agree that Morrowind was a piece of *** in the balance department, but that's another matter.)

Trashkan wrote: »

Beat all craglorn hm trials 2 years ago.

Back when the entire AA HM trial was a 7 minute fight that everyone could waltz through with PUGs? When the first boss would die before you could even do a full rotation? Yea, that doesn't count. The rescaled vAA HM (not non-HM) is actually quite tough and is as much of a DPS check (if not more) than twins.

Once again when trials 1st launched they were easily comparible same with Vdsa. Bit when they upgraded everyone's gear and added cp is when it got easy. We beat all Hm trials before cp and before v16 I believe we beat A.A and Hel Ra when v12 was the cap. See why should i have to argue this 2 almost 3 years of trials and our group can't complete after a year. This is when I say enough. Peace out eso Total war Arena has me now.

Larsay

Trashkan wrote: »

Larsay wrote: »

Should have stayed in CAE, we clear every week... couple times a night when we feel feisty .

I was happy to join your guild on the side until you told me that it's not a first come first serve if someone with a better parse shows up your out. This is the type of guild I avoid so it is what it is and that's why trials 2 years ago was in much greater demand.

That was taken out of context. Yes on any give night of trials we take like any group takes the best suited for the spot. It matters if it is a DPS check being missed, a tank that just cant seem to take a hit or a healer that lags behind. These things can cause a group to come to a screeching halt. I am sorry this makes for such a vile guild. Especially when our DPS benchmark is only 25k which is quite low. When I tell people they will be benched for a higher DPS its because they are failing the minimum benchmark. No more no less.

But much like was mentioned earlier in this thread by Code, and like we told you as well. If a person is not making the numbers, struggling in content etc we pull them aside and try and find out where the problem lies.

You ultimately never opted to do anything with us, or allow us to help you. You just got pissy that you would have to adapt potentially and left. clarified even more by your initial post and your response to mine.

This is why many trial groups fail in my experience. Failure to adapt to the content. They just feel their builds work. What they are doing is fine. Our strategy is perfect etc etc. Its not the game, or the content. Its the game.

Truthfully I find Lunar Twins easy. I remember when it first lunched. I also remember when Nightfighters got their first clear as well as some time after Fear is Failure. Our little guild was one of the much later guilds to clear and start clearing.

It was quite a few man hours, lots of burned out and at time angry players...

I just recently helped three extremely low DPS individuals and a weak healer get the vMoL skin. This fight can be handled without high DPS, or any of the things complained about. On this evening because of this we had 4 waves for 4 adds on each side drop....

But, we locked the adds down... knocked them out and got the bosses HP down evenly.

I don't know what your groups problem is, I have zero clue. vMoL is in a good spot right now. Far far easier than release. But crying about it wont do any good. And basically asking ZoS to nerf or easy mode things is silly. The game is easy enough as it is.

Adapt, grow and learn... and accept that some on your team my lack the skill, build or ability they need to get the content down, yourself included.

Larsay

I might add that there are plenty of guilds and people who are more than willing to help. But you have to be willing to take this help. You can not slap it down or away.

I get new tanks, healers and DPS all the time that just don't understand how to do their role properly in Trials, especially vMoL. and if the player is willing, we like many other guilds clearing the content invest our time and our energy in helping these members.

But, while we can all lead the horse to water the horse has to learn to drink for itself.

Players who don't drink die of thirst. Horses who don't drink and go lame we put down.

Horowonnoe

@Larsay on point

Trashkan

Lol failure to adapt you mean adopt an alcast meta build and hit 60k on every boss fight in vdsa ya I tried it ya it was easy and no i am not gonna force everyone to narrow a build down like eso has done. Like I said I'm a pro tank never claimed to be a good dps but now I am apparently because I hit 35k dps parses and can hit 50k on most boss fights with a raid. Might as well use c.e