Twins are overkill (vet maw)

Trashkan

People don't need help as much as you think and you don't need to sound like such elitist jerks because you adopted a meta build from alcasthq.com it was easy and you all know it, but just cause my mdk only hit 25k didn't make him weak. I tanked vet dsa with him for f sake. He was a situational dps built for VMAW with unlimited sustain for inhale and chains.

Asardes

It's not enough to copy builds from various streamers, you need to understand how they work and adapt them to your needs. That's how you build. The rest is just rotation practice, regardless of class or role. Knowing the mechanics and playing in a coordinated way it's something entirely different. If you think you are a very good player, that can parse 50K, then most likely not being able to beat vMoL is not your fault - having more than 3 adds at each boss is a DPS failure. Probably the rest are weak so the solution is just find other people to run. There are plenty of people who can beat vMoL on all platforms, and plenty of guided online those who want to progress can follow. If people are able to complete it on a regular basis, even on farm mode, it's not a design fault.

Zaldan

500 hours of twins, my mind is so going the wrong direction

Trashkan

Asardes wrote: »

It's not enough to copy builds from various streamers, you need to understand how they work and adapt them to your needs. That's how you build. The rest is just rotation practice, regardless of class or role. Knowing the mechanics and playing in a coordinated way it's something entirely different. If you think you are a very good player, that can parse 50K, then most likely not being able to beat vMoL is not your fault - having more than 3 adds at each boss is a DPS failure. Probably the rest are weak so the solution is just find other people to run. There are plenty of people who can beat vMoL on all platforms, and plenty of guided online those who want to progress can follow. If people are able to complete it on a regular basis, even on farm mode, it's not a design fault.

So my point of this whole topic was to discuss this whole mechanic on if you hit this many ads your dps is too low. Why not just lower the bar a hair and make 3 ads the max? Then groups that know the fight but have to bring in new players on a regular basis wouldn't have to suffer 500 hours and let me be honest it's probably 400 hours or since the damn dungeon dropped for 6 hours a week. If your group suck you will never split and kill 3 ads. I know our group is good because I have watched us wreck 4 ads and keep the rythem many times bit we get hit with another 4 ad wave and are just simply stat burnt. We get to the twins with very few deaths and under 30 min every time as well.


We want to work on halls but our group will not give up on maw, and every time we bring some ringers they try and take over raid leader and act like we have never been there it's ffffing annoying our group is like kick him hes annoying it's hilarious. So long story short we should have halls beat sometime in the year 2020.

Mureel

Trashkan wrote: »

Larsay wrote: »

Should have stayed in CAE, we clear every week... couple times a night when we feel feisty .

I was happy to join your guild on the side until you told me that it's not a first come first serve if someone with a better parse shows up your out. This is the type of guild I avoid so it is what it is and that's why trials 2 years ago was in much greater demand.

Yeah this. lol. Like I will never have 40k DPS or mostly not even 35k on a skeleton- I get 30k to 32k on my sorc, more like 28-29k on my Magblade. I'm not making a whole new char just to DPS when I main a healer. I just won't go to raid if there's not a healer spot. *shrugs* GL HF - done every trial in game anyway incl VHOF, only Speed and HM left on VHOF and that's it. - but I don't give a damn about it anymore really.

It's why I went back to NA just to do other stuff in game, instead of being asked always to DPS and then ZOMG why don't you have 35k! *because really I D G A F re DPS* is why - I am doing this as a favour for you, not the other way around.

Trials are a waste of time and gold - I am over it. I might go back EU and do the new one when it drops and after that - out. (I don't do them on NA RN because my healer does not have SPC/mending here and only 315 cp)

The_Lex

I don't like vet trials for no other reason than the simple fact that many fights are a buggy, laggy mess on consoles. If I die, I want it to be because I legitimately screwed up, and not because I couldn't see an attack/attacker or because of input lag.

Asardes

30K DPS sef buffed - which usually translates to about 40K in group - is the bare minimum for doing HM Craglorn trials and vMoL/vHoF. If DDs can't pull that much they will be a brake on your group, especially if they don't understand the mechanics. Same goes with tanks that don't debuff and stack adds properly and healers who can't buff and keep people alive. People should know their limits and work to overcome them before venturing in harder content. Revising your gear, CP, rotation and practicing does help. If people don't work on the basics and expect to be carried 500 hours at the Twins is the result.

code65536

Trashkan wrote: »

Why not just lower the bar a hair and make 3 ads the max?

On one hand, this change would have zero effect on the groups that clear vMoL reliably, since those groups never see the 4-add phase anyway. Clearing with HM, clearing with as much vitality remaining as possible, and clearing in as little time as possible are more important, anyway. This would make the trial a bit more accessible and maybe entice more people to participate in the raiding community.

On the other hand, this isn't spring of 2016. These days, the amount of DPS needed to avoid the 4-add phase is pretty accessible given the current levels of power. Skipping that phase is something most groups can--and should--be able to do. And I say "should" here because a lot of subsequent content is balanced around that level of DPS--the level of DPS needed to avoid 4 adds on twins is also the level of DPS that you need if you want to clear the rescaled vAA HM or if you want to beat the enragement timer in the rescaled vHRC HM. And when you do go into vHoF, you'll find that there are a number of DPS races there. This isn't something that exclusive to some elite club--this is something that most can attain. You just have to want it enough to do what it takes.

I wouldn't be opposed to them changing the add cap from 4 to 3. After all, the fact that the adds are capped at 4 and 5-add phases don't exist means that ZOS probably didn't intend it to be a DPS check (though that's what it ended up being) and they probably intended 4-add phases to be manageable (though that's usually not the case), so if their intent is for twins to not be a DPS race and for the add-phases to be capped at a manageable number, then 3 would probably make more sense than 4. After all, ZOS also intended for people to kill Rakkhat using more than 2 lunar cycles (why else would killing him within 2 cycles even be an achievement?), so they don't exactly have a good track record of matching their intent with reality. In any case, twins isn't the only fight out there that will give you problems if you have low DPS--you're treating just one of several symptoms of low DPS, not the actual problem of low DPS.

Trashkan

We go from 1 ad 1 ads 2 ads 2 ads 4 ads 4 ads. You guys all beat it on 2 ads? We dont even hit three when dps is good we go straight to 4 around 35%.

Asardes

People were clearing it with 3 adds almost one and a half years ago. Group DPS would have been probably mediocre by today's standards. In the mean time we had many sets introduced and scaled to CP160, we had 150-200 CP added, also those CP were made more front loaded so spreading them in more stars will give you more power than it gave back then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQJ_UEywqeA

Trashkan

But sustain wasnt an issue either quit using this comparison.

Asardes

Trashkan wrote: »

But sustain wasnt an issue either quit using this comparison.

Sustain is not an issue today if you have good group support and you had altered your rotations to account for the increased cost of skills and lower recovery. It's been almost 5 months since Morrowind. With all the sustain changes those people are clearing it with 2 adds instead of 3. Any class can weave 1-2 heavy attacks in the rotation and do much more damage than people were doing back then. It's a L2P issue.

Trashkan

Lol or l2 use meta build its that easy. If you guys can't see the difference then we are all lost and this game is doomed. Lol ya I should learn to play on a toon who has over 200 days played on. You make no sense with your l2p elitist a hole attitude.

Trashkan

Wait I got it next trial is just gonna be a test dummy with a timer next to it. Have fun lmao this game sometimes.

code65536

Trashkan wrote: »

Lol or l2 use meta build its that easy. If you guys can't see the difference then we are all lost and this game is doomed. Lol ya I should learn to play on a toon who has over 200 days played on. You make no sense with your l2p elitist a hole attitude.

Or, um... learn to adapt?

Combat at launch was very different than what combat was like when I started playing in 2015, which in turn is very different than what combat was like in Homestead, which in turn is very different than combat after Morrowind.

If you never "learned" the new way of doing things after a major combat system change, you would've been left out in the cold years ago.

You could argue that it's not very fun to have to relearn new ways to play the game every year or so when they shake the system up, and I would agree that Morrowind's changes in particular are pretty poorly thought-out. But if you didn't want to relearn how to play, then why haven't you quit the previous times things got turned upside down?

Trashkan

I'm done arguing with 5 people that smash through maw. These are very biais opinions from narrow minded raid groups. That don't let 99% of the player base in there raids. Z.o.s if you can't see this then your loss.

Qbiken

Aside from knowing the mechanics in the twin-fights, the fight is more or less a dps race. The fact that there´s such a huge difference between the classes makes trials a little:

Go meta or go home (for me this is discouraging to do trials). Want to play magplar DD or magDK??? Sorry, but any stamina class will outparse you by 5-10k singletarget dps. Want to go range DD?? You better use magblade or magsorcs...

And don´t get me started on warden......

I´m not in favour of lowering the difficulty of vMoL, just want more diversity when it comes to endgame PvE. Sure if you´re a guildleader for a top-raiding guild you can bring whatever the *** you want because it´s your raiding guild, but most people who want to join a good guild will either have to go full meta or leave it....I´m not against a competitive environment, I think it´s healthy to have some competition, but you´ll know when there´s to much competitiveness

code65536

Trashkan wrote: »

I'm done arguing with 5 people that smash through maw. These are very biais opinions from narrow minded raid groups. That don't let 99% of the player base in there raids. Z.o.s if you can't see this then your loss.

You're the only one who's arguing. We tell you that what you need is higher DPS. You refuse to listen. We tell you that higher DPS is pretty accessible, thanks to all the power creep. You refuse to listen. We tell you that Morrowind sucks, but you can adapt to the changes and come out ahead of where you were before Morrowind. You refuse to listen.

All you want to do is play the victim card. For what purpose? To gain sympathy? You're not doing a very good job of it with the way you lash out at everyone. You don't want to adapt? Okay, fine. A lot of people (including people who "smash through Maw") felt the same way and quit after Morrowind. If that's how you feel, then quit. But why lash out at the people who stayed and adapted? Are they somehow holding you back? Taking away your enjoyment? Or are they just an inconvenient reminder of your stubbornness?

Sure, cap the adds on twins to 3. I think there's merit to a change like that, as I've already stated earlier. But it won't change that with low DPS, you'll have trouble with a lot of other fights, not just twins.

Trashkan

Because you come at 99% of the player base with a l2p attitude. Sympathy?? Lash out at Everyone? 5 people that tell me to l2p and our dps isn't good ebough and you say I'm lashing out.

Asardes

You're the only one lashing. BTW, don't use lash in trials, since it eats away the off-balance

code65536

Qbiken wrote: »

Aside from knowing the mechanics in the twin-fights, the fight is more or less a dps race. The fact that there´s such a huge difference between the classes makes trials a little:

Go meta or go home (for me this is discouraging to do trials). Want to play magplar DD or magDK??? Sorry, but any stamina class will outparse you by 5-10k singletarget dps. Want to go range DD?? You better use magblade or magsorcs...

And don´t get me started on warden......

I´m not in favour of lowering the difficulty of vMoL, just want more diversity when it comes to endgame PvE. Sure if you´re a guildleader for a top-raiding guild you can bring whatever the *** you want because it´s your raiding guild, but most people who want to join a good guild will either have to go full meta or leave it....I´m not against a competitive environment, I think it´s healthy to have some competition, but you´ll know when there´s to much competitiveness

ZOS had never really balanced classes. In One Tamriel and Homestead, it was magicka-or-go-home. A lot of people who mained stamina shelved their stamina toons. Some rolled magicka toons. Some respeced. Some had even quit. After Morrowind, stamina is all the rage. Those who had shelved their stamina mains were digging them out of the closet and dusting them off. And those who mained magplars and magDKs were now the ones to either quit or shelve their mains. That said, you don't need to go meta to clear content. The world-first vHoF clear was done without any stamina DPS, because magicka was what people were used to, and the range and shields of magicka was helpful as people got used to the fights.

I took my group into vHoF with the exact composition we had when we were in Homestead. It wasn't until after we had gotten our vHoF HM clear--yes, with a magplar and magdk in the group--that we started to change the group composition towards something more meta. And I didn't ask them to do it, either. People voluntarily switched to stronger builds/classes because they had already gotten their clear, so the only thing left to do was to clear again faster and better.

kylewwefan

Hey man, it sucks to have to exclude some players from your raid. I totally get that. It also sucks to wipe on content because you brought in some friends that are only pulling 5k Damage or even less... I know, because I’ve been teaching them skill rotations which is odd because I’m not very good either. But everyone gets better with some help.

Some fight it. You know, they want their character to feel like it’s “theirs” but is not working out so good. I know I did. Everyone wants their toons to be the best, so they cave a little. Reaching that higher Level takes work though.

It feels like “WORK” which sucks. I actually like being able to run around spamming one skill and wrecking everything in this game. Sadly this is not what vet content is about.

FakeFox

I would not consider the twins a DPS test. Sure technically it get's harder the longer you take, but the DPS required to kill them with 3-4 adds is really not high. You should be able to easily do it with 30k per DD, which is honestly not much. Every class should be able to achieve that.
This statement has somewhat of a bad taste, but this is simply about "getting good". It's not about playing absolute meta, having good hardware, using macros or whatever else people often claim. It is simply about investing time and research to master your build. Copying builds from some youtuber does not get you anywhere, you have to understand the game mechanics your self and train them. If someone can't reach 30k DPS singletarget, it's not the metas fault, it's his own.

Trashkan

3 ads we never even see 3 it goes straight to 4 from 2 so your telling me we have to do 56mill boss dps in 4 rotations which is roughly 30k single target per toon not including ads?

Asardes

Someone was mentioning the fact Templar is "dead" this patch. It's far from it, you just have to think a bit outside the box:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM0KS6p4N24

Trashkan

Here we go again. And what % of the player base can do that? Maybe 1%?

FakeFox

Trashkan wrote: »

3 ads we never even see 3 it goes straight to 4 from 2 so your telling me we have to do 56mill boss dps in 4 rotations which is roughly 30k single target per toon not including ads?

Yes. That's exactly what I said. However you can squeeze one more rotation out of that, as you don't have to kill the adds in the last round.

Asardes

Trashkan wrote: »

Here we go again. And what % of the player base can do that? Maybe 1%?

Everyone can do it. If they practice. If they don't they will not be able to. It's not hard to setup a practice dummy and fine tune your rotation. The gear in the video is not very hard to obtain: you can just farm vAA (20-25 minutes runs) for gold jewels - after 10 runs people will end up vendoring gold VO and IA jewels to NPCs - or nAA for body pieces from those sets. Also pretty much everyone and their grandma can craft Julianos, Hunding, NMG. As for monster sets, veteran dungeons are easy, and there's even more reason to farm them post patch to re-trait your weapons. Stop complaining and start improving, there's literally 0 excuse. I practiced the rotation on my Stamina DK last night and I was able to climb from barely 30K to almost 34K. That's an hour of practice. It's not hard.

Danksta

I'm pretty confused by the OP. On one had he seems to want his vMOL clear pretty badly since he's spent 500 hours in there, but on the other he refuses to conform to the meta and challenge his guild mates to get better.

Trashkan

FakeFox wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

3 ads we never even see 3 it goes straight to 4 from 2 so your telling me we have to do 56mill boss dps in 4 rotations which is roughly 30k single target per toon not including ads?

Yes. That's exactly what I said. However you can squeeze one more rotation out of that, as you don't have to kill the adds in the last round.

This is where I call bs. Finding 8 dps that can do this is very very hard it's harder than the fight. The dance is easy this is harder than the load screen boss. So you guys saying this is easy is a very biais opinion and I know you guys can't see it that's why it's called a biais opinion.


But I can see it on both sides. I have a tank with every set golded out glyphed out maxed out. I have tanked every stinking fight in the game but vhof boss 3 and 4 and maw final. I can tell you every mechanic of every boss and can give you exact count down when they will happen. I have a dps who can out damage every player that runs with us including pick up players that have all beaten maw. We can do Vdsa in under an hour getting close to 45 min. So I can see both sides of the argument.


It's just unrealistic for this game to succeed with such high expectations from average players.