kyle.wilson wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno
With the outrage over an API that pretty much allows cheating, I am surprised that @ZOS_BrianWheeler, @ZOS_RichLambert, and @ZOS_Wrobel haven't had any comments on the forum for a while
I'm basing this off the dev tracker.
Wrobel's last post was Sept 29
Rich Lambert's was Aug 14
and
Brain Wheeler's was Aug 18
That's not engagement by any stretch of the imagination.
@ZOS_MattFiror last active Feb 27.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »At the risk of replying to a pretty rude post, our combat developers are not engineers - these are two different teams. What you're suggesting is essentially what we already do. What is it that you're unhappy with, exactly?I've always wondered if this game would be better off if ZOS' combat/class/skill design team was NOT also a development team.
The combat devs seem to be mostly competent coders, but they are pretty awful game designers. Wouldn't it be better to have two smallish teams that work closely together, one to code / implement new features / fix bugs, and another team to PLAY THE FREAKING GAME / brainstorm about class design / make balance decisions / counterplay / character mechanics?
I think the team is fine. Yes maybe they could respond faster or more in-depth especially with how they envision some changes. But overall they are reacting to comments we make.
WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »I think the team is fine. Yes maybe they could respond faster or more in-depth especially with how they envision some changes. But overall they are reacting to comments we make.
Without a doubt, the most apologist post to date. I wish I didn't have to account for months of my time (Feb, Aug, really?!) to the taxpayers (consumers) that paid my salary. Your standards are ridiculously lax.
Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Dorrino
You of all should realize the time it takes to respond to threads, as you yourself reply to the majority of concerns voiced against your addon (as shortsighted as some of those complaints may be).
Avran_Sylt wrote: »Imagine that you as well had to respond to tenfold as many posts (and this is being frugal) that all pertain to your 9-5 job, but each post a different aspect. Do you respond to each and every thread?
Avran_Sylt wrote: »Now that the community knows that they will get Dev responses, do they create more threads with their "game-changing" ideas, with the expectation that they get to have discourse with the development team? I can assure you, that they will (as I am guilty of that myself), even if the ideas may be considered ludicrous from your point of view. Which creates a never ending cycle of more and more community input.
Avran_Sylt wrote: »If the devs cannot handle the amount of input from the community, and they "apparently" begin to slow down responses, does the community complain? Yes, yes they will.
Avran_Sylt wrote: »Will the average forum user understand when the devs say they don't have the resources to do such a thing as responding to every thread? No! The devs are made of Money! they can hire more people! They can't be working all that hard! Personal attacks, etc...
Avran_Sylt wrote: »So now every time they comment to the public, while there are some people who are grateful, there are others who are just overall toxins, eating away at any desire to communicate with the forums outside of just observing.
Avran_Sylt wrote: »Of course, that's just speculation. Could be that there is a NDA on most employees that's now just being enforced to prevent any stakeholders losing money from a loose-jawed dev that may say there is a problem with something. And now all outgoing communications have to be vetted, and its just a waste of time putting out any status update posts. Who knows.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »...we look at the big picture to see what needs to be done for the betterment of the game as a whole and how something will affect all aspects (PvE, PvP, dungeons, Trials, etc).
You know what would be good for the game?
If pvp worked during primetime.
You´d have 10 times the pvp playerbase if pvp wasn´t a freaking lagfest when you try to play it between 7 to 11pm on EU PC.
I´ll put it quite simple: Everyone i´ve played with in my guild since release. Literally everyone. Everyone of those people quit your game because it does not work during primetime in pvp.
Not because of anything else. Only because it does not work.
Over the past 3 years you have not been able to get your game to work during primetime.
How you can come here and have the audacity to tell people you´re doing anything for the betterment of the game in pvp is beyond me and i find that statement infuriating and straightup insulting (i know you´re not to blame for the state of affairs in general - i´m only blaming you for making the statement that there is anything done for the betterment of pvp - simply because it´s a lie).
Your game does not even work unless you play it in the morning.
Seriously
I know you're frustrated, but remember the statement I made earlier was in regards to ability changes and not performance. Now that said, we do have several performance improvements coming in Update 16 (Monday for PC) that will help improve the frame rate and loading screens - this includes Cyrodiil.
kyle.wilson wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno
With the outrage over an API that pretty much allows cheating, I am surprised that ZOS_BrianWheeler, ZOS_RichLambert, and ZOS_Wrobel haven't had any comments on the forum for a while
I'm basing this off the dev tracker.
Wrobel's last post was Sept 29
Rich Lambert's was Aug 14
and
Brain Wheeler's was Aug 18
That's not engagement by any stretch of the imagination.
ZOS_MattFiror last active Feb 27.
Matt's head boss. If he doesn't come to comment, means they are on top of things. Trust me you don't want the boss making comments when he should be delegating.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »...we look at the big picture to see what needs to be done for the betterment of the game as a whole and how something will affect all aspects (PvE, PvP, dungeons, Trials, etc).
You know what would be good for the game?
If pvp worked during primetime.
You´d have 10 times the pvp playerbase if pvp wasn´t a freaking lagfest when you try to play it between 7 to 11pm on EU PC.
I´ll put it quite simple: Everyone i´ve played with in my guild since release. Literally everyone. Everyone of those people quit your game because it does not work during primetime in pvp.
Not because of anything else. Only because it does not work.
Over the past 3 years you have not been able to get your game to work during primetime.
How you can come here and have the audacity to tell people you´re doing anything for the betterment of the game in pvp is beyond me and i find that statement infuriating and straightup insulting (i know you´re not to blame for the state of affairs in general - i´m only blaming you for making the statement that there is anything done for the betterment of pvp - simply because it´s a lie).
Your game does not even work unless you play it in the morning.
Seriously
I know you're frustrated, but remember the statement I made earlier was in regards to ability changes and not performance. Now that said, we do have several performance improvements coming in Update 16 (Monday for PC) that will help improve the frame rate and loading screens - this includes Cyrodiil.
DoonerSeraph wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »ZoS does listen to our feedback. That doesn't mean that if ZoS chooses not to implement your feedback, they ignored it.
Taking your frustrations out on Gina over issues she has zero control over is a pretty crappy thing to do.
Sure, CMs have no impact over any decision made by ZOS's dev team. But there were threads (especially your very good threads on templar issues) that were only met with dead silence. Is that fair? You were as constructive as a non-employee of ZOS could be, yet your feedback was completely ignored. I do understand that not implementing everything that is said here does not mean that they dont listwn, but if they dont even answer well made threads that are almost an essay about problems that need fixing and things that are out of balance, what kind of thread you expect to be read? It would be much better if they at least posted something at all like "Points A, B and C we agree and are looking to fix then, we are meeting problems at B and C because of F and G causes. We dont agree with your vision on X and Y because of Z". They always talk about some vision they have for the game.I wonder what vision is it? We dont know, that makes people feel that dont listen to the playerbase at all, and they dont have a vision for the future of the game aside from reskinning mounts for Crown Crates.
I'm sorry but thats just how I (and I think others) feel about it.
EDIT: Also the "Z" symbol on the threads is somewhat frustrating, I personally dont care about a forum moderator announcing that they removed some post or corrected another, that "Z" mark on the thread should be reserved only for CMs and devs, so we could see actual answers there.
WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »I think the team is fine. Yes maybe they could respond faster or more in-depth especially with how they envision some changes. But overall they are reacting to comments we make.
Without a doubt, the most apologist post to date. I wish I didn't have to account for months of my time (Feb, Aug, really?!) to the taxpayers (consumers) that paid my salary. Your standards are ridiculously lax.
Young gamer privilege. I remember a time when the game you played was the game you got and you had closer to no input on it's output.
But then again, what do I know, I just play here.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
Joy_Division wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »ZoS does listen to our feedback. That doesn't mean that if ZoS chooses not to implement your feedback, they ignored it.
Taking your frustrations out on Gina over issues she has zero control over is a pretty crappy thing to do.
Sure, CMs have no impact over any decision made by ZOS's dev team. But there were threads (especially your very good threads on templar issues) that were only met with dead silence. Is that fair? You were as constructive as a non-employee of ZOS could be, yet your feedback was completely ignored. I do understand that not implementing everything that is said here does not mean that they dont listwn, but if they dont even answer well made threads that are almost an essay about problems that need fixing and things that are out of balance, what kind of thread you expect to be read? It would be much better if they at least posted something at all like "Points A, B and C we agree and are looking to fix then, we are meeting problems at B and C because of F and G causes. We dont agree with your vision on X and Y because of Z". They always talk about some vision they have for the game.I wonder what vision is it? We dont know, that makes people feel that dont listen to the playerbase at all, and they dont have a vision for the future of the game aside from reskinning mounts for Crown Crates.
I'm sorry but thats just how I (and I think others) feel about it.
EDIT: Also the "Z" symbol on the threads is somewhat frustrating, I personally dont care about a forum moderator announcing that they removed some post or corrected another, that "Z" mark on the thread should be reserved only for CMs and devs, so we could see actual answers there.
I absolutely agree with you in that it's super frustrating to write something you feel is thoughtful and compelling and just have silence. At the least it would be incredibly helpful just to get a /lurk or something.
That being said, I'm not going to go ballistic on Gina because of my frustrations with the game's developers and the higher-ups who make the (questionable) decisions.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »This isn't correct. The developers do come on the forums almost daily, and they do read the feedback threads we create when we're active on the PTS; we've said this many times in the past. Also, Jess and I (as the Community Managers) frequently bring threads to the attention of devs to make sure they've seen it, and many times, they already have. The moderators are responsible for removing posts that break our forum rules.OP, the developers dont come here man. The community managers watch the forums like hawks, but mostly just to remove child *** and off-color jokes.
Granted if everyone followed your suggestion the devs -might- come here, but getting everyone to do that would be like herding cats... cats on skooma.
The actual paid moderators could do it, start a community thread about this or that popular grievance, people would flock to it. That would probably take considerably more time and effort though than what they're currently paid to do. It would also take a much more proactive rather than laissez faire company policy.At the risk of replying to a pretty rude post, our combat developers are not engineers - these are two different teams. What you're suggesting is essentially what we already do. What is it that you're unhappy with, exactly?I've always wondered if this game would be better off if ZOS' combat/class/skill design team was NOT also a development team.
The combat devs seem to be mostly competent coders, but they are pretty awful game designers. Wouldn't it be better to have two smallish teams that work closely together, one to code / implement new features / fix bugs, and another team to PLAY THE FREAKING GAME / brainstorm about class design / make balance decisions / counterplay / character mechanics?That's the thing - it's almost impossible to make a change that every player will agree with. Our job is to make changes that are best for the overall game. It may not always be popular with everyone, such as nerfing a specific ability, but we look at the big picture to see what needs to be done for the betterment of the game as a whole and how something will affect all aspects (PvE, PvP, dungeons, Trials, etc).The thing is getting the community to agree on anything is almost impossible, other than "nerfs are bad, don't take my toys away"
kyle.wilson wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno
With the outrage over an API that pretty much allows cheating, I am surprised that @ZOS_BrianWheeler, @ZOS_RichLambert, and @ZOS_Wrobel haven't had any comments on the forum for a while
I'm basing this off the dev tracker.
Wrobel's last post was Sept 29
Rich Lambert's was Aug 14
and
Brain Wheeler's was Aug 18
That's not engagement by any stretch of the imagination.
@ZOS_MattFiror last active Feb 27.
The modern gaming industry, on the other hand, treats their players more like addicts than customers
I believe that a more conrete "road ahead" every 3 months for example from the devs would help tremendously. I mean a more concrete explanation what is being implemented and which direction is the game going to take.
rfennell_ESO wrote: »kyle.wilson wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno
With the outrage over an API that pretty much allows cheating, I am surprised that @ZOS_BrianWheeler, @ZOS_RichLambert, and @ZOS_Wrobel haven't had any comments on the forum for a while
I'm basing this off the dev tracker.
Wrobel's last post was Sept 29
Rich Lambert's was Aug 14
and
Brain Wheeler's was Aug 18
That's not engagement by any stretch of the imagination.
@ZOS_MattFiror last active Feb 27.
Yeah and they were probably met with the typical "fire @Wrobel" responses.
I might not have noticed (totally possible), but when I played wow even Ghostcrawler didn't get the type of hate and calls for FIRE HIM bs that Wrobel and Wheeler have gotten here. If I was them I certainly wouldn't engage either...
I'm pretty sure these guys have seen the crap that Ghostcrawler from wow went through... blame and insinuation of culpability over things totally unrelated to their actual function. All the "know it all" streamers (who actually know very little) that have ranted and raved, particularly about Wrobel and Wheeler have likely made it so these forums are to be avoided.
Seen a few "DAOC" referral types lately, Obviously the prism of time passed yields an image of forgetfulness. DAOC, like any other pvp game in existence had some issues with OP abilities that lingered a long time (Hello AOE stuns and massive crippling lag at relic keep fights).
Anti_Virus wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno
First I would like to thank you for your input communication from the devs is super important to me personally.
Now I want to say something that frustrates me with the devs:
What is your vision for the DragonKnight class?
A while back although I don't remember the thread I vividly recall your response to someone who requested that DKs get a class execute you said that the class shouldn't get one because its already a strong tank or something to that wording.
The magicka variant is in a weird spot abilities costing magicka synergies best with a staff but the melee range of these high damage abilities forces you in melee range which is not what you want to be in with a staff. So you run with One hand and Shield and that has no synergy with the magicka DK, the passives and ability benefit the stam version 10x more than the magic version not to mention sustaining with this weapon is bad on mDK since it restores stamina not magicka.
Conversely stam DK is in a stranger spot because of the lack of class abilities two poison dots and a poison ultimate, No class spammables forces the stam DK into weapon skill lines and at that only two for damage purposes Dual Wield and Two Hander or just a tank, the lack of a class based heal effective for stam dk etc.
So again what is your vision for the DK? Do you want the class to be a tank? If so why nerf block builds? You guys stated that you want all class skill lines to follow the warden class example if so how are you going to approach it? Will Dks get more damage abilites or improvements to more existing ones?The Warden class abilites put the DK ones to shame, like Shimmering shield vs Scales in which shimmering shield not only has a significantly lower cost than scales but returns magicka AND generates ultimate, warden Ice ultimate vs DK Standard etc.
lordrichter wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno
First I would like to thank you for your input communication from the devs is super important to me personally.
Now I want to say something that frustrates me with the devs:
What is your vision for the DragonKnight class?
A while back although I don't remember the thread I vividly recall your response to someone who requested that DKs get a class execute you said that the class shouldn't get one because its already a strong tank or something to that wording.
The magicka variant is in a weird spot abilities costing magicka synergies best with a staff but the melee range of these high damage abilities forces you in melee range which is not what you want to be in with a staff. So you run with One hand and Shield and that has no synergy with the magicka DK, the passives and ability benefit the stam version 10x more than the magic version not to mention sustaining with this weapon is bad on mDK since it restores stamina not magicka.
Conversely stam DK is in a stranger spot because of the lack of class abilities two poison dots and a poison ultimate, No class spammables forces the stam DK into weapon skill lines and at that only two for damage purposes Dual Wield and Two Hander or just a tank, the lack of a class based heal effective for stam dk etc.
So again what is your vision for the DK? Do you want the class to be a tank? If so why nerf block builds? You guys stated that you want all class skill lines to follow the warden class example if so how are you going to approach it? Will Dks get more damage abilites or improvements to more existing ones?The Warden class abilites put the DK ones to shame, like Shimmering shield vs Scales in which shimmering shield not only has a significantly lower cost than scales but returns magicka AND generates ultimate, warden Ice ultimate vs DK Standard etc.
I, too, wish they would just publish the class design goals and parameters so that we could understand what they are doing.
With classes and races, information like this tends to get different camps butting heads. Since it is not really possible for all classes, and all races, to be optimal in all roles, this information is not going to greeted with open arms by everyone. If there is an assigned, or preferred, role, certain people will insist that is the only combination that should be used with that role. There will be people doing a role in a class and race combination that is not intended to be a primary role, and they will not be happy, even if they are doing just fine in the role.
In the end, if they published this, it would just become a list of constraints for players to follow.
I don't expect they will ever do it.
Anti_Virus wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno
First I would like to thank you for your input communication from the devs is super important to me personally.
Now I want to say something that frustrates me with the devs:
What is your vision for the DragonKnight class?
A while back although I don't remember the thread I vividly recall your response to someone who requested that DKs get a class execute you said that the class shouldn't get one because its already a strong tank or something to that wording.
The magicka variant is in a weird spot abilities costing magicka synergies best with a staff but the melee range of these high damage abilities forces you in melee range which is not what you want to be in with a staff. So you run with One hand and Shield and that has no synergy with the magicka DK, the passives and ability benefit the stam version 10x more than the magic version not to mention sustaining with this weapon is bad on mDK since it restores stamina not magicka.
Conversely stam DK is in a stranger spot because of the lack of class abilities two poison dots and a poison ultimate, No class spammables forces the stam DK into weapon skill lines and at that only two for damage purposes Dual Wield and Two Hander or just a tank, the lack of a class based heal effective for stam dk etc.
So again what is your vision for the DK? Do you want the class to be a tank? If so why nerf block builds? You guys stated that you want all class skill lines to follow the warden class example if so how are you going to approach it? Will Dks get more damage abilites or improvements to more existing ones?The Warden class abilites put the DK ones to shame, like Shimmering shield vs Scales in which shimmering shield not only has a significantly lower cost than scales but returns magicka AND generates ultimate, warden Ice ultimate vs DK Standard etc.
Anti_Virus wrote: »@ZOS_GinaBruno
First I would like to thank you for your input communication from the devs is super important to me personally.
Now I want to say something that frustrates me with the devs:
What is your vision for the DragonKnight class?
A while back although I don't remember the thread I vividly recall your response to someone who requested that DKs get a class execute you said that the class shouldn't get one because its already a strong tank or something to that wording.
The magicka variant is in a weird spot abilities costing magicka synergies best with a staff but the melee range of these high damage abilities forces you in melee range which is not what you want to be in with a staff. So you run with One hand and Shield and that has no synergy with the magicka DK, the passives and ability benefit the stam version 10x more than the magic version not to mention sustaining with this weapon is bad on mDK since it restores stamina not magicka.
Conversely stam DK is in a stranger spot because of the lack of class abilities two poison dots and a poison ultimate, No class spammables forces the stam DK into weapon skill lines and at that only two for damage purposes Dual Wield and Two Hander or just a tank, the lack of a class based heal effective for stam dk etc.
So again what is your vision for the DK? Do you want the class to be a tank? If so why nerf block builds? You guys stated that you want all class skill lines to follow the warden class example if so how are you going to approach it? Will Dks get more damage abilites or improvements to more existing ones?The Warden class abilites put the DK ones to shame, like Shimmering shield vs Scales in which shimmering shield not only has a significantly lower cost than scales but returns magicka AND generates ultimate, warden Ice ultimate vs DK Standard etc.
You don't how dk work at all.
First, saying melee range is not what you want with a staff is false. You can play melee with staff and nothing forbidden you to use it, there is also half of the skills that are melee skills : wall of element, pulsar and eyes of the storm.
If magicka dk don't use dampen magicka and healing ward as defense, like sorc or nb, it's because S&B synergise very well with magicka DK. Battle roar with helping hands give you stamina back, and Iron skin give you more block mitigation. Also, having too pieces as weapon make you able to have 5/5/2 set up. The synergy is here, and morrowing buffed the magicka DK ability to perma block.
For stam DK, it's not the only stamina class without a spammable and a heal (hello stam sorc). Also, you forget S&B as a good damage weapon skill line, have you already try the light attack/heroic slash/bash combo with some reverbating bash for stun and debuff heal ? It's powerfull and synergise well with stam dk. In fact, like every other stamina build, stam DK need to have 2h for rally, then he have the choice to use the defensive weapon, or one of the 2 offensive left.
If you think a S&B dk + 2h is necessery a tank build, then you should try it as a tanky DPS set up.
If you want to know what's ZoS vision, just look at the class and realise DK is a melee class build for tankiness and melee damage.