ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

Derra

laced wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Miat's addon is NOT cheating. ZOS is the league here, ZOS are the refs, ZOS sets the rules. If Miat's addon is allowed with ZOS's blessing, then it can in no way be cheating. Those that are calling it cheating are misunderstanding.

I don't like Miat's addon. Not because I think it's cheating but because I believe it gives the player using it an advantage over one that isn't using it. I don't believe 3rd party addons/programs should give players advantages (especially in PvP). I just don't see how using it can be considered not being given an advantage. First, all addons are created for some benefit, some advantage to using it. No one uses addons that hinder their play or take away from the game. Miat's (specifically for the purpose of PvP) gives the player a crystal clear cue of an incoming projectile even before the projectile (poison injection, crystal frag, etc) has been fired off. The addon really diminishes the need for awareness in certain (but not few) situations. A player not using the addon must rely on a greater amount of awareness. Also, there was a time when Miat's addon was alerting the player using it of enemies in stealth around him/her, without their knowledge that they were known to be in the area.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is just mine.

Edit: I definitely think ZOS seriously needs to revisit all the API and make some decisions. I always say this when in these threads but I will say it again. Way back when, back when Mr. Paul Sage (Tamriel still remembers you old friend!) called for all API to be closed off to players.... He understood, he knew what would/could happen down the road. I think that says a lot about the whole topic of addons and whatever else may be out there.

Except, it was not allowed with their blessing, so......

ZOS has publicly allowed Miat's addon as "ok". You cannot have disciplinary action levied upon you for using it. I don't like the addon, I have said that many times. But the truth is for now ZOS has allowed it.

They never said that, not once. And like I have said, and others have pointed out, they recently said they are looking into it again, so clearly they are not ok with it.

Guilty until proven innocent - the foundation of human society.

Ulfgarde

Jayman1000 wrote: »

You cannot in good faith keep calling this an exploit unless you bring forth some argument that clearly shows that it is against the developers design intend.

This is absolutely key to the argument; we cannot tell what ZOS takes a stance on. They have time and time again failed to show their interest in the subject, giving unclear and vague answers and having sparse interactions with the community. This is where the controversy starts because we don't know what they want to do.

They say that they may restrict the API for it, but when you consider it's been 10 months since the addon's release, how do we know if they're still working on it? They've given no indication as of late of this. When you realize that there's been no public statement about bans or how this addon is clearly an exploit, we have no way to tell. We can merely infer that, because they are taking so long to take action, they either are "okay" with it or don't have it high enough on their priority list. That's just an example of how an argument can be formed from this. There are so many ways you can draw conclusions from this situation.

Constructing legitimate inferences about what ZOS is going to do or doing about this is what everyone is arguing about right now. By reflecting on this and, consequentially, taking in what we know about ZOS, we can only guess. Nothing is set in stone unless we get an absolute, clarified response, which we aren't even certain will happen at this stage.

The only thing we can hinge on is communication. Until that, we can bicker on and on about if it's exploit, cheat, etc.

Biro123

Ulfgarde wrote: »

The key to understanding why rocket jumps and bunny hopping became the norm was because id Software TOLD them it was okay.

Showing your age

Jade1986

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Miat's addon is NOT cheating. ZOS is the league here, ZOS are the refs, ZOS sets the rules. If Miat's addon is allowed with ZOS's blessing, then it can in no way be cheating. Those that are calling it cheating are misunderstanding.

I don't like Miat's addon. Not because I think it's cheating but because I believe it gives the player using it an advantage over one that isn't using it. I don't believe 3rd party addons/programs should give players advantages (especially in PvP). I just don't see how using it can be considered not being given an advantage. First, all addons are created for some benefit, some advantage to using it. No one uses addons that hinder their play or take away from the game. Miat's (specifically for the purpose of PvP) gives the player a crystal clear cue of an incoming projectile even before the projectile (poison injection, crystal frag, etc) has been fired off. The addon really diminishes the need for awareness in certain (but not few) situations. A player not using the addon must rely on a greater amount of awareness. Also, there was a time when Miat's addon was alerting the player using it of enemies in stealth around him/her, without their knowledge that they were known to be in the area.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is just mine.

Edit: I definitely think ZOS seriously needs to revisit all the API and make some decisions. I always say this when in these threads but I will say it again. Way back when, back when Mr. Paul Sage (Tamriel still remembers you old friend!) called for all API to be closed off to players.... He understood, he knew what would/could happen down the road. I think that says a lot about the whole topic of addons and whatever else may be out there.

Except, it was not allowed with their blessing, so......

ZOS has publicly allowed Miat's addon as "ok". You cannot have disciplinary action levied upon you for using it. I don't like the addon, I have said that many times. But the truth is for now ZOS has allowed it.

They never said that, not once. And like I have said, and others have pointed out, they recently said they are looking into it again, so clearly they are not ok with it.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

How do you sleep at night?

Likely well.

It's not cheating, or it'd be disallowed. Get over it, cry baby.

The above comment is an official statement. If you disagree with it, find another game if it bothers you so much.

At this time, is what was said, and more recently they have said they are looking into it again, so stop posting out of date information.

I didn't post it. I directed people to it. Get your facts straight. Stop posting misinformation please.

And I guarentee, they're looking at it not because they feel it is cheating, but to appease the screeching PVP minority.

People will whine about the truth. People will screech about 'it's actually cheating'. They should be disreguarded. ZOS will choose how to run things in it's house. You do not like it? Pull monitary support from the game. Those are your options. They were your options when sustain was nerfed, when a thousand other things are nerfed, and then when something is not changing. You can opt out, at any time.

The minority, right. If you check any forums, any social media, and ask in cyro chat, almost everyone is against it, so please, the only minority are people who think nullifying a playstyle is ok.

agegarton wrote: »

laced wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

This thread defines the term “first world problems”. I’m sick and tired of these “cheater” posts.

I have been playing this game since the beta. I have logged more online hours than I’m prepared to post (you know..... in case my wife sees it), but I’m pretty clear that I have logged more hours than the vast majority of players. I have completed every single quest several times across about 16 alts and four accounts, spent huge amounts of time in PVP in Cyrodiil and in the Imperial City and Sewers, and I farm mats and resources for some pretty major trade.

I can safely say that not once - not one single time - have I been bothered by a bot, a Zerg, an add on user, a gold seller, or any so-called “cheat”. That’s not to say I haven’t seen all of the above, but as a grown-up I know when to say “it’s a game” and just move on. Experience not ruined.

Perhaps if you all spent more time just playing the game than whining like spoilt schoolgirls on these forums, you’d have a better time in Tamriel.

Pretty sure the people content with cheating are the problem, not the people hoping for a product they pay for to function without being cheated by outside add ons.

Funny, I’m pretty sure the problem is the holier-than-thou forum crusader who believes he speaks for the entire gaming community.

My point was, and still is, that there’s no need to get your knickers in a twist over what you deem to be cheating. Take this add-on for example. It’s pretty clear that it is NOT cheating. It’s a legitimate API call. ZOS has confirmed same. So what you mean is, you don’t like it. So, you’re a bit cross because you don’t like it, and you’re cross with me because I don’t give a rats backside that you don’t like it....? Ok.

Funny, apparently you hve ignored all polls done so far that came out heavily against the add on and add ons like it. But I know, this is the minority, everything that is against the add on is the minority. xD. And its she bucko.

Cherryblossom wrote: »

it's using the API, so it's not cheating.

Is it a massive advantage over other players, No, we have very few one on one fights, it's all zergs, so yes you may get alerted to one Crystal frag that you may block or roll from, but you will still get hit by the spear, snipe, crushing shock it hasn't told you about.

Lets face it one to one, you will see the crystal frag or snipe coming so arguably you don't need it.

Other add ons that utilized were deemed cheating by ZoS in the past too, just because they are silent does not mean they condone it.

Biro123 wrote: »

The way I see it - it used to use ZoS's public API's to do X,Y,Z.

Zos looked at the addon specifically, decided they didn't like some of it so restricted their API's so it can only do X,Y

Surely that means Zos are ok with the X,Y part?

Silence does not = acceptance. Especially since they recently said they are looking into it again. Stop quoting what they said in 2016, when this year they said they are looking into it again because clearly enough people are upset.

Ulfgarde

Biro123 wrote: »

Ulfgarde wrote: »

The key to understanding why rocket jumps and bunny hopping became the norm was because id Software TOLD them it was okay.

Showing your age

Lol I'll just quietly remove that part.

Biro123

laced wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The way I see it - it used to use ZoS's public API's to do X,Y,Z.

Zos looked at the addon specifically, decided they didn't like some of it so restricted their API's so it can only do X,Y

Surely that means Zos are ok with the X,Y part?

Silence does not = acceptance. Especially since they recently said they are looking into it again. Stop quoting what they said in 2016, when this year they said they are looking into it again because clearly enough people are upset.

Its the only thing we can quote..

If a law was made in 1823, but they are 'looking into whether to change it', that 1823 law still stands until that review has completed AND implements a change (if it decides to).

So yes, it is VERY acceptable to quote the 2016 official response. Its a damn sight better than quoting a bunch of unofficial opinions from players with an axe to grind.
If they come out with another official statement tomorrow that decides that using the addon IS cheating - then I will stop using it and happily call anybody who continues to use it a cheater. But until that happens, using the addon is simply NOT cheating.

Again - the definition is determined by Zos - not by you or me. I will abide by what Zos says in the matter - not what you say (unless of course you both end up saying the same thing - but that isn't the case at the moment)

DDuke

Ulfgarde wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

You cannot in good faith keep calling this an exploit unless you bring forth some argument that clearly shows that it is against the developers design intend.

This is absolutely key to the argument; we cannot tell what ZOS takes a stance on. They have time and time again failed to show their interest in the subject, giving unclear and vague answers and having sparse interactions with the community. This is where the controversy starts because we don't know what they want to do.

They say that they may restrict the API for it, but when you consider it's been 10 months since the addon's release, how do we know if they're still working on it? They've given no indication as of late of this. When you realize that there's been no public statement about bans or how this addon is clearly an exploit, we have no way to tell. We can merely infer that, because they are taking so long to take action, they either are "okay" with it or don't have it high enough on their priority list. That's just an example of how an argument can be formed from this. There are so many ways you can draw conclusions from this situation.

Constructing legitimate inferences about what ZOS is going to do or doing about this is what everyone is arguing about right now. By reflecting on this and, consequentially, taking in what we know about ZOS, we can only guess. Nothing is set in stone unless we get an absolute, clarified response, which we aren't even certain will happen at this stage.

The only thing we can hinge on is communication. Until that, we can bicker on and on about if it's exploit, cheat, etc.

While in theory you're correct, unlike for ZOS it did not take the player base months to not only decide but also communicate that Sharpened Maces & Double Mundus were exploits and should be fixed asap.

In fact, most people categorized those things as exploits the moment they saw them (long before ZOS addressed those issues). What's different here?

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Ulfgarde wrote: »

Miat's is basically a fault of ESO's API, simple as that. Is it outright cheating? No, the circumstances of cheating don't apply. Cheating implies 3rd party programs, where factors are changed to a person's fitting. The purpose of Miat's - to make CCs and stealth easier to counter - is what makes it so frustrating that it gives such an advantage compared to not having it.

If we were to make generalizations, we could say that most high damage or effective CCs are telegraphed. Sure, many of them aren't, but for sake of argument, they were. When you're fighting in any PvP situation, the thing you want to avoid is high damage followed by CC. Why? A good player will utilize CCs for a setup, often to combo them down with some array of attacks. Now, since most CCs have cooldowns in like every MMO, this means, in ESO, where we have no cooldowns on CC, except for CC immunity, avoiding CC for the sake of defense becomes much more valuable. This is precisely why Miat's is such a problem. Because it gives too much of an advantage for people to roll dodge and block when the addon telling them, rather than using the environment, visual and auditory cues, and, most importantly, timing to determine this. It's taking gamesense - an acquired set of skills you develop from experience that influence factors like positioning, timing, etc. - and safely vending them to new players with little to no acquired experience.

Again, it's not cheating, but it's simply a feature permitted by ZOS, which completely undermines good players from having an implicit advantage over bad players.

A lot of people are attacking Miat simply for developing the addon. The fact that he developed it isn't a problem; the fact that ZOS continues to allow it and not restrict the API from these issues is a problem. He even mentions this in the stream, but I'm quite sure a lot of people find it easier to rush to conclusions than do so.

pretty much this.

Miat created this addon because he wanted to farm new players in peace and wanted a notification when anyone was in the area that was strong enough to kill him so he could just cloak away and find a new place to kill new, low cp, and inexperienced players.

His perma dodge eternal hunt build is very hard to hit but squishy if you can get him from stealth. So he patched a weakness in his playstyle with an addon that changed the balance of the game. I should be impressed if this wasn't the most over-the-top tryhard thing i've ever seen in a video game. But as the quote text above says, no blame really should goes to Miat. What he is doing is perfectly legitimate. Zos is allowing this. They deserve 100% of the blame if this addon is determined to be bad for the game.

DDuke

Biro123 wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The way I see it - it used to use ZoS's public API's to do X,Y,Z.

Zos looked at the addon specifically, decided they didn't like some of it so restricted their API's so it can only do X,Y

Surely that means Zos are ok with the X,Y part?

Silence does not = acceptance. Especially since they recently said they are looking into it again. Stop quoting what they said in 2016, when this year they said they are looking into it again because clearly enough people are upset.

Its the only thing we can quote..

If a law was made in 1823, but they are 'looking into whether to change it', that 1823 law still stands until that review has completed AND implements a change (if it decides to).

So yes, it is VERY acceptable to quote the 2016 official response. Its a damn sight better than quoting a bunch of unofficial opinions from players with an axe to grind.
If they come out with another official statement tomorrow that decides that using the addon IS cheating - then I will stop using it and happily call anybody who does use it a cheater. But until that happens, using the addon is simply NOT cheating.

It's not the "only thing we can quote", there's a more recent post (January 2017) that says no attacks from players you can't see should get a notification:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

http://www.esoui.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6745


Why do people keep ignoring the elephant in the room?

Biro123

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Ulfgarde wrote: »

Miat's is basically a fault of ESO's API, simple as that. Is it outright cheating? No, the circumstances of cheating don't apply. Cheating implies 3rd party programs, where factors are changed to a person's fitting. The purpose of Miat's - to make CCs and stealth easier to counter - is what makes it so frustrating that it gives such an advantage compared to not having it.

If we were to make generalizations, we could say that most high damage or effective CCs are telegraphed. Sure, many of them aren't, but for sake of argument, they were. When you're fighting in any PvP situation, the thing you want to avoid is high damage followed by CC. Why? A good player will utilize CCs for a setup, often to combo them down with some array of attacks. Now, since most CCs have cooldowns in like every MMO, this means, in ESO, where we have no cooldowns on CC, except for CC immunity, avoiding CC for the sake of defense becomes much more valuable. This is precisely why Miat's is such a problem. Because it gives too much of an advantage for people to roll dodge and block when the addon telling them, rather than using the environment, visual and auditory cues, and, most importantly, timing to determine this. It's taking gamesense - an acquired set of skills you develop from experience that influence factors like positioning, timing, etc. - and safely vending them to new players with little to no acquired experience.

Again, it's not cheating, but it's simply a feature permitted by ZOS, which completely undermines good players from having an implicit advantage over bad players.

A lot of people are attacking Miat simply for developing the addon. The fact that he developed it isn't a problem; the fact that ZOS continues to allow it and not restrict the API from these issues is a problem. He even mentions this in the stream, but I'm quite sure a lot of people find it easier to rush to conclusions than do so.

pretty much this.

Miat created this addon because he wanted to farm new players in peace and wanted a notification when anyone was in the area that was strong enough to kill him so he could just cloak away and find a new place to kill new, low cp, and inexperienced players.

His perma dodge eternal hunt build is very hard to hit but squishy if you can get him from stealth. So he patched a weakness in his playstyle with an addon that changed the balance of the game. I should be impressed if this wasn't the most over-the-top tryhard thing i've ever seen in a video game. But as the quote text above says, no blame really should goes to Miat. What he is doing is perfectly legitimate. Zos is allowing this. They deserve 100% of the blame if this addon is determined to be bad for the game.

Its a bit like that old saying on free speech.. 'I may not agree with what you are saying, but will defend your right to say it'

I don't agree with what the mod achieves - but I defend that he had the right to create it based on the API's that ZOS provide.

ssewallb14_ESO

He sounds like Sribes' impression of Alcast.

Publius_Scipio

Some of you don’t believe that since ZOS didn’t gut the addon back when they looked at it, they were allowing it. Now you say they are looking into it again. That’s great, but they haven’t stopped the addon at the moment of this writing. ZOS is allowing its use, until they say otherwise. What’s so hard to grasp?

DDuke

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Some of you don’t believe that since ZOS didn’t gut the addon back when they looked at it, they were allowing it. Now you say they are looking into it again. That’s great, but they haven’t stopped the addon at the moment of this writing. ZOS is allowing its use, until they say otherwise. What’s so hard to grasp?

Nothing with that wording, but when people start saying that it's intended (not "allowed") how the API functions... well, that's just not supported by any facts out there.

Whether abusing something that is "allowed" by the developers (but very likely not intended, just like Sharpened Maces & Double Mundus exploits) constitutes as cheating or exploiting is another matter and I can understand if that divides opinions.

Samadhi

laced wrote: »

...

Cherryblossom wrote: »

it's using the API, so it's not cheating.

Is it a massive advantage over other players, No, we have very few one on one fights, it's all zergs, so yes you may get alerted to one Crystal frag that you may block or roll from, but you will still get hit by the spear, snipe, crushing shock it hasn't told you about.

Lets face it one to one, you will see the crystal frag or snipe coming so arguably you don't need it.

Other add ons that utilized were deemed cheating by ZoS in the past too, just because they are silent does not mean they condone it.
...

As mentioned earlier in this thread,
The Terms of Service dictate they do not even have to be timely in dealing with such matters

Game Mods
...
ZeniMax may, but is not required under this Agreement to, validate, test, evaluate or pre-screen Game Mods.
...
EXCEPT AS PROHIBITED BY APPLICABLE LAW AND SUBJECT TO THE STATUTORY OBLIGATIONS (AS DEFINED IN SECTION 1), ZENIMAX RESERVES THE RIGHT (BUT HAS NO OBLIGATION EXCEPT AS REQUIRED BY LAW) TO OFFER, MAKE AVAILABLE, REVIEW, REMOVE, BLOCK, EDIT, MOVE OR DISABLE GAME MODS FOR ANY REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE, AND HAS NO LIABILITY OF ANY KIND WITH RESPECT TO GAME MODS, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION WHEN ZENIMAX DETERMINES THAT A GAME MOD VIOLATES THESE TERMS OF SERVICE, THE EDITOR EULA. THE DECISION TO REMOVE A GAME MOD AT ANY TIME IS IN ZENIMAX'S SOLE AND FINAL DISCRETION.

TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, ZENIMAX DOES NOT ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY FOR GAME MODS OR FOR THE REMOVAL OF ANY GAME MODS FOR ANY FAILURE TO OR DELAY IN REMOVING, ANY GAME MOD.

they can 'delay' removal of access to such features as long as they see fit
and are not required to give any notification as to what their intention is prior to enacting it
people claiming 'it's cheating' or 'it's not cheating' are equally in error
the playerbase has no say in whether or not it is cheating, the only thing that can be done is to notify ZOS of imbalances or issues created by addons

aside from definition as cheating
it can be recognized as an exploit tho
as it makes available information that is entirely unavailable otherwise
by relying on a coding issue (that is to say, that for the sake of convenience in calculating hits a player is given a sort of invisible debuff
so the server recognizes and can handle whether the attack is successfully executed)

there are no gameplay mechanics that make information available about incoming hits
aside from visual and audio telegraphs
but the addon exploits a flaw in the information reporting to make available information that is not available through regular gameplay
ie: the addon circumvents the need for the utilization of gameplay mechanics designed to counter stealth
instead allowing players to use such skill and/or potion slots for other purposes

it is kind of like having a 6th dedicated skill slot for radiant magelight
there is nothing in the 'rules' of the game saying you cannot do so
there is simply nothing in the 'rules' of the normal flow of gameplay that would facilitate you doing so in the first place

Publius_Scipio

DDuke wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Some of you don’t believe that since ZOS didn’t gut the addon back when they looked at it, they were allowing it. Now you say they are looking into it again. That’s great, but they haven’t stopped the addon at the moment of this writing. ZOS is allowing its use, until they say otherwise. What’s so hard to grasp?

Nothing with that wording, but when people start saying that it's intended (not "allowed") how the API functions... well, that's just not supported by any facts out there.

Whether abusing something that is "allowed" by the developers (but very likely not intended, just like Sharpened Maces & Double Mundus exploits) constitutes as cheating or exploiting is another matter and I can understand if that divides opinions.

I never said I agree with Miat’s personal reasoning on the matter or any of the addon’s proponents. All I am stating is that ZOS through action (or inaction as some think) has allowed and is currently allowing the addon in the game. It is not cheating at this time.

Maikon

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

TheMaster wrote: »

I don’t use this add-on because I don’t really do PVP, but if ZOS has not gone on the record and declared this to be cheating, then it’s not a cheating. Doesn’t matter how people personally feel about it.

@TheMaster
You should PvP more often and you'll know how much of an advantage the addon offers the user.
I've fought a lot of the addon users (friends and foe alike) and they said Miat's help a lot with the visual & graphical cues so sometimes it's too much and they're relatively vet players too.

And no, I'm not complaining. Just saying that based on my experience, it does offer an edge over players who don't use it.

Yea, it does give an advantage, and you do sound like you're complaining, which is ironic since you have a quote saying "There is no clean fight in a war". Cyro is war, it shouldn't be "fair".

Maikon

Huyen wrote: »

Doesnt matter if Miat thinks its not cheating, if ZoS decides its cheating, its cheating. Simple as that. And most of the people do consider it cheating as well.

Don't know where you've been looking for your information, but ZOS decided that it wasn't cheating, several times. Which is why it's still allowed.

Minnesinger

Most seem to have forgotteh Miat made this addon public when there could be several private addons that do the exactly same or even more. His idea was to make it shareable so those running similar addons wouldn´t have the edge. This has also caused a lot of controvery letting people discuss something most wouldn´t be aware of. Leave the guy be!

DDuke

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Some of you don’t believe that since ZOS didn’t gut the addon back when they looked at it, they were allowing it. Now you say they are looking into it again. That’s great, but they haven’t stopped the addon at the moment of this writing. ZOS is allowing its use, until they say otherwise. What’s so hard to grasp?

Nothing with that wording, but when people start saying that it's intended (not "allowed") how the API functions... well, that's just not supported by any facts out there.

Whether abusing something that is "allowed" by the developers (but very likely not intended, just like Sharpened Maces & Double Mundus exploits) constitutes as cheating or exploiting is another matter and I can understand if that divides opinions.

I never said I agree with Miat’s personal reasoning on the matter or any of the addon’s proponents. All I am stating is that ZOS through action (or inaction as some think) has allowed and is currently allowing the addon in the game.

Yes, obviously. If they didn't allow it, it wouldn't be a thing at the moment.

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

It is not cheating at this time.

This is where I have a different opinion.

Abusing a flaw/bug (and this is where "intention" starts to matter) in a game's code is what pretty much every exploit is about. Whether they're allowed or not don't change what they are.

Unless you think using Sharpened Maces or Double Mundus wasn't exploiting/cheating


Full disclosure: I used both exploits back in the days, but only because they were allowed and most players did the same. They were still exploits/cheating though, same as Miat's (which I also currently use).

Shardan4968

Maikon wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

TheMaster wrote: »

I don’t use this add-on because I don’t really do PVP, but if ZOS has not gone on the record and declared this to be cheating, then it’s not a cheating. Doesn’t matter how people personally feel about it.

@TheMaster
You should PvP more often and you'll know how much of an advantage the addon offers the user.
I've fought a lot of the addon users (friends and foe alike) and they said Miat's help a lot with the visual & graphical cues so sometimes it's too much and they're relatively vet players too.

And no, I'm not complaining. Just saying that based on my experience, it does offer an edge over players who don't use it.

Yea, it does give an advantage, and you do sound like you're complaining, which is ironic since you have a quote saying "There is no clean fight in a war". Cyro is war, it shouldn't be "fair".

Cyro shouldn't be fair? So you are suggesting that it's ok to use actual cheats in PvP? It's just a game and it should be fair u know? He uses quote from real world.

DDuke

Minnesinger wrote: »

Most seem to have forgotteh Miat made this addon public when there could be several private addons that do the exactly same or even more. His idea was to make it shareable so those running similar addons wouldn´t have the edge. This has also caused a lot of controvery letting people discuss something most wouldn´t be aware of. Leave the guy be!

You really think he had some noble intentions when making the addon?

Originally Posted by MagiczneTornado
Nice addon, too bad hordes of angry carebears are already grabbing pitchforks "omgz cheatz addon tells stealth, delete it".

Great and creative addon, hope ZOS wont give in to mob mentality

I head how players community kills off its own addon community.

Old 12/16/16, 06:14 PM dorrino
AddOn Author - Click to view AddOns

Forum posts: 47
File comments: 144
Uploads: 8
Thanks. Yep, it's obvious there will be complaints. My stance is the addon balances stealth before Zos decides to

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=1545&so=DESC&page=9#comments

I'm sorry if I don't have any sympathy for the person, especially when he decides to inject himself into almost every discussion regarding these API functions to defend their existence and starts derailing threads by insulting other players & spouting narcissistic nonsense about being the "best stamblade na".

Some reading material:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374249/zenimax-restrict-your-api#latest

WildWilbur

Just LOL

LadyLavina

elijafire wrote: »

Doesn't matter if it is cheating or not. If you play PvP it is absolutely necessary to use macros and addons in order to have an even playing field.

Macros no, add ons yes to a degree.

Also regardless of what those defending Miat would say, the fact is the guy made an add-on that semi-neuters stealth (albeit less-so in it's current incarnation) and removes the element of surprise in some situations. It would be extremely difficult to deny that.

I'm sure there are people that love that because they're in-your-face fighters that give 0 [snip] about sneaking, but it's also ridiculous. If you dont like dealing with stealthy ganky sons-of-[snip], play something else. His add-on isn't and has never been cheating in my opinion, since what it has done in the past was allowed by the developers. I just think it's effort that could have been better spent elsewhere, if you're that unhappy with stealth.

Suppose you hate your neighbor with a burning passion. Everything they do just irritates you to no end. Some people love your neighbor, but you just absolutely despise them. They make your life and the lives of a bunch of your friends miserable. They're not doing anything against the rules however, so the homeowners association does nothing about it. The PvP alerts add on to me, is like dedicating your entire self to playing passive aggressive games with said neighbor in order to TRY to make them move, when it would just be easier to move yourself.

This whole thing is the opinion of someone who has played both stealth and in-your-face characters in pvp. Many many hours on both types of play.

rfennell_ESO

The arguments made in the thread can always be interpreted differently than their explanations...

I agree the addon isn't cheating. However it's obviously not something ZOS intended which makes it exploitative.

The problem with many of the arguments is they pose a scenario that people will tend to agree with because it's myopic in scope, and it's made so intentionally. So while true, it's also a lie.

The idea that it was created to "not be ganked (by basement dwelling opportunists!)" is true and also a lie. Sure, you can argue it eliminates a certain play style that players that have evolved their gameplay into a very particular mold are vulnerable to. Thing is, the addon is certainly used on all ranged projectiles in combat... not just ranged projectiles from stealth. As a dodge rolly stamblade the author wasn't really getting ganked, as any nightblade that has the common sense of having cloak on a bar (bonus points for riding a mount with that bar active!) isn't quite "gankable". So the addon serves another purpose entirely and is used for that purpose. It's to prevent them from being ranged, which is the builds weakness.

Anyone that pvp's and "has never EVER (EVAR!) seen cheating has narrowed their definition of cheating to "what's possible in game without memory hacking the client isn't cheating". Anyone that hasn't seen the rash of critical charge macro slice builds that apply their damage on the charge at range, dawnbreaker at short range (with the ticks totally unavoidable even if you move or evaded them) and macrosliced reverse slices/executioners that hit at range and when you are in the middle of a dodge roll is blind. It's not cheating if it's your exploitative way of "gaming" the system.

Here is the insidious part of the whole thing... The exploited charge (applying damage at range) isn't avoidable by reaction or miat's as it's being exploited to apply it's damage in an unavoidable way. The moves being paired with that "noble and skillful" play style that involves pressing a couple buttons are also not going to be telegraphed with miats (even if they were, it wouldn't matter).

So you have a play style that benefits from the telegraphed warnings that has found a niche where the telegraphed warning won't help their opponent.

It's not really the addon that's the issue imo. It's mostly exploited charge builds that macroslice and their desire to be invulnerable while doing it. The only thing the two have in common (past being used in conjunction) is ZOS seems oblivious to them both.

Minnesinger

DDuke wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Some of you don’t believe that since ZOS didn’t gut the addon back when they looked at it, they were allowing it. Now you say they are looking into it again. That’s great, but they haven’t stopped the addon at the moment of this writing. ZOS is allowing its use, until they say otherwise. What’s so hard to grasp?

Nothing with that wording, but when people start saying that it's intended (not "allowed") how the API functions... well, that's just not supported by any facts out there.

Whether abusing something that is "allowed" by the developers (but very likely not intended, just like Sharpened Maces & Double Mundus exploits) constitutes as cheating or exploiting is another matter and I can understand if that divides opinions.

I never said I agree with Miat’s personal reasoning on the matter or any of the addon’s proponents. All I am stating is that ZOS through action (or inaction as some think) has allowed and is currently allowing the addon in the game.

Yes, obviously. If they didn't allow it, it wouldn't be a thing at the moment.

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

It is not cheating at this time.

This is where I have a different opinion.

Abusing a flaw/bug (and this is where "intention" starts to matter) in a game's code is what pretty much every exploit is about. Whether they're allowed or not don't change what they are.

Unless you think using Sharpened Maces or Double Mundus wasn't exploiting/cheating


Full disclosure: I used both exploits back in the days, but only because they were allowed and most players did the same. They were still exploits/cheating though, same as Miat's (which I also currently use).

You seem have different opinion but that doesn´t change the fact this was made public whereas he could have kept it private or share it with his friends. Yes he understood that this is in the grey area but lets not hate the messenger. There are multiple addons that doesn´t necessary be as easy to get and can do the same. Miat´s addon is actually very smart addon but don´t be fool and think this is the only one.

DDuke

Minnesinger wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Some of you don’t believe that since ZOS didn’t gut the addon back when they looked at it, they were allowing it. Now you say they are looking into it again. That’s great, but they haven’t stopped the addon at the moment of this writing. ZOS is allowing its use, until they say otherwise. What’s so hard to grasp?

Nothing with that wording, but when people start saying that it's intended (not "allowed") how the API functions... well, that's just not supported by any facts out there.

Whether abusing something that is "allowed" by the developers (but very likely not intended, just like Sharpened Maces & Double Mundus exploits) constitutes as cheating or exploiting is another matter and I can understand if that divides opinions.

I never said I agree with Miat’s personal reasoning on the matter or any of the addon’s proponents. All I am stating is that ZOS through action (or inaction as some think) has allowed and is currently allowing the addon in the game.

Yes, obviously. If they didn't allow it, it wouldn't be a thing at the moment.

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

It is not cheating at this time.

This is where I have a different opinion.

Abusing a flaw/bug (and this is where "intention" starts to matter) in a game's code is what pretty much every exploit is about. Whether they're allowed or not don't change what they are.

Unless you think using Sharpened Maces or Double Mundus wasn't exploiting/cheating


Full disclosure: I used both exploits back in the days, but only because they were allowed and most players did the same. They were still exploits/cheating though, same as Miat's (which I also currently use).

You seem have different opinion but that doesn´t change the fact this was made public whereas he could have kept it private or share it with his friends. Yes he understood that this is in the grey area but lets not hate the messenger. There are multiple addons that doesn´t necessary be as easy to get and can do the same. Miat´s addon is actually very smart addon but don´t be fool and think this is the only one.

Of course it's not the only addon (there are private ones doing the same thing/possibly more) and I actually had a very neutral image of Miat. Before he started talking.

The mental gymnastics he's capable of defending how the API permits these types addons (and even going as far as saying his addon makes the game better) are something else.

Here's an example:

Dorrino wrote:

pieratsos wrote:

Situational awareness, positioning and paying attention are part of player skill. The addon takes away that. Again, its that simple.

Mistakes not getting punished is the reason why PVP is so bad. You can correct your mistakes. You made a mistake and you took the hit, cc or whatever but you are still alive. You react and get urself back in the fight. Thats also player skill and thats how you correct mistakes. Not by an addon telling you the mistake you did so you can react as if it never happened.

And i would insist that if an addon correct mistakes on the verge of human perception we need more and better addons like this, because there're some limits to perception you can't overcome.

It stops being 'ill use an addon instead of learning' and instead becomes 'i'll use an addon to perceive something i wouldn't be able to perceive otherwise due to limitations of the default ui'.

It's not about being bad. It's about being better.

LadyLavina

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The arguments made in the thread can always be interpreted differently than their explanations...

I agree the addon isn't cheating. However it's obviously not something ZOS intended which makes it exploitative.

I can definitely agree with that, and wish that I had put such a line in my reply to the thread lol

Jayman1000

Shardan4968 wrote: »

I just found this beautiful definition from legit source called wikipedia:

Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier or harder. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers), or created by third-party software (a game trainer) or hardware (a cheat cartridge).

I don't know how about you, but this reminds about this addon. I didn't find any definition which includes something about developers allowing players to cheat, tho.

Beyond normal gameplay is the key words here. ZOS has intentionally allowed addons to do limited customization of the UI through making some of the API available. This is the part where ZOS has standardized the methods to which you can make addons (i.e. it is not non-standard). Making use of this API is NOT "beyond normal gameplay" (not in the sense the term is used in your quote) but judging from your comment you seem to think that it is. Like it or not, but addons making use of the available API is within the definition of normal gameplay. If it weren't ANY addon would, by this definition, be a cheat simply because they were an addon. Which is of course a ridiculously narrowminded notion when addons are not only tolerated but encouraged.

DDuke

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

I just found this beautiful definition from legit source called wikipedia:

Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier or harder. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers), or created by third-party software (a game trainer) or hardware (a cheat cartridge).

I don't know how about you, but this reminds about this addon. I didn't find any definition which includes something about developers allowing players to cheat, tho.

Beyond normal gameplay is the key words here. ZOS has intentionally allowed addons to do limited customization of the UI through making some of the API available. Making use of this API is NOT "beyond normal gameplay" but judging from your comment you seem to think that it is. Like it or not, but addons making use of the available API is within the definition of normal gameplay. If it weren't ANY addon would, by this definition, be a cheat simply because they were an addon. Which is of course a ridiculously narrowminded notion.

So you can somehow see opponents cast timers as part of the normal gameplay? Even when you can't see opponents animations (i.e. they're stealthed/out of your camera angle)?

What the API permits this addon to do (by a flaw/bug in the design) is absolutely beyond "normal gameplay", this should be obvious.


Sure, certain other addons (i.e. Itemization Browser etc) provide functions not available via "normal gameplay", but they also don't provide any advantages/disadvantages that'd make them exploitative.

Except for the recent example of gear swapping addons being used with Alchemist set to proc Alchemist buff & then instantly swap to different gear. This was actually fixed by ZOS.

Shardan4968

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

I just found this beautiful definition from legit source called wikipedia:

Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier or harder. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers), or created by third-party software (a game trainer) or hardware (a cheat cartridge).

I don't know how about you, but this reminds about this addon. I didn't find any definition which includes something about developers allowing players to cheat, tho.

Beyond normal gameplay is the key words here. ZOS has intentionally allowed addons to do limited customization of the UI through making some of the API available. This is the part where ZOS has standardized the methods to which you can make addons (i.e. it is not non-standard). Making use of this API is NOT "beyond normal gameplay" (not in the sense the term is used in your quote) but judging from your comment you seem to think that it is. Like it or not, but addons making use of the available API is within the definition of normal gameplay. If it weren't ANY addon would, by this definition, be a cheat simply because they were an addon. Which is of course a ridiculously narrowminded notion when addons are not only tolerated but encouraged.

Well, addon which gives you advantages over players who don't use it is cheat in my narrowed mind. In my narrowed mind ZOS is allowing players to cheat, by doing nothing to restrict this addon. I'm just a simple man.