ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

wenchmore420b14_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

From december 2016.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/308947/miats-pvp-alerts/p4

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon was brought to our attention earlier in the week, and we’ve been running some internal tests on it to gauge functionality and impact. We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result. Here’s an explanation of how it works, and what it does and doesn’t do:

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon is built upon actions done by players that the combat log records. This includes sprinting, casting an ability, weapon swapping, drinking a potion, stealthing, etc. If a player executes any of those actions, basic messages are sent to the server and clients. This mod hooks into those notifications and filters them to give information about who is in the area. That info is then turned into either a KOS list determined by the player, a stealthier list, or simply an incremental value of players in the area (all are a rough estimation.)

The KOS list, specifically, is simply another layer on top of the above options, where the addon looks for specific players that you can choose to add to a list. When those players perform an action within your existing area of detection, you will be notified that they are in the area. You are not provided info on exactly where they are. Here are a few specific examples:

• If someone is in your existing area of detection and they fully enter stealth, the addon will notify you of the name of the player character that successfully went fully “hidden.”
• If someone is already stealthed and you’re traveling near then, or enter the area they were initially already stealthed in, you will not be notified of that player.
• If someone uses a Nightblade ability that results in them vanishing, they will not trigger the addon’s alert unless they enter the real “hidden” state (i.e. the eye on the HUD is closed).

Lastly this addon adds a kill spam list which shows you when someone has died in your existing area of detection, and to what ability. When you first get these messages, it simply says “Someone has died to Dark Flare.” When you start to get more information on the players around you, it adds that player name to the Saved Variables file for PVPAlerts.lua, then starts to add that information into your UI while playing.

Note that in all the above examples, you are not notified of exactly where the player is. This addon does not add a little blip to your map or compass, and does not give you an overlay that points out specifically where players are. This addon is not radar, a Doppler, or any other means of giving away another player’s exact position.

We want to thank everyone for sharing your concerns with us about this addon.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Are we allowed to use this addon until you decide upon a judgement?

At this time, we will not be taking action on accounts using this addon.

That's from December and the post doesn't even mention the addon showing unseen opponents' cast timers. Based on that, it is likely ZOS wasn't even aware of those (or the addon didn't provide them back in December 2016).

Here's a post (and context) from January this year from the ZOS person in charge of the game's API/addons:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

http://www.esoui.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6745

So we have responses from Dec 2016 & Jan 2017.
Here is from last week... Oct 10, 2017.... YES they are still looking at it!!!! PS... I still vote it is cheating...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, just letting you know that we have seen and read this thread, and have brought it to the team's attention.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4557011#Comment_4557011

Publius_Scipio

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The arguments made in the thread can always be interpreted differently than their explanations...

I agree the addon isn't cheating. However it's obviously not something ZOS intended which makes it exploitative.

The problem with many of the arguments is they pose a scenario that people will tend to agree with because it's myopic in scope, and it's made so intentionally. So while true, it's also a lie.

The idea that it was created to "not be ganked (by basement dwelling opportunists!)" is true and also a lie. Sure, you can argue it eliminates a certain play style that players that have evolved their gameplay into a very particular mold are vulnerable to. Thing is, the addon is certainly used on all ranged projectiles in combat... not just ranged projectiles from stealth. As a dodge rolly stamblade the author wasn't really getting ganked, as any nightblade that has the common sense of having cloak on a bar (bonus points for riding a mount with that bar active!) isn't quite "gankable". So the addon serves another purpose entirely and is used for that purpose. It's to prevent them from being ranged, which is the builds weakness.

Anyone that pvp's and "has never EVER (EVAR!) seen cheating has narrowed their definition of cheating to "what's possible in game without memory hacking the client isn't cheating". Anyone that hasn't seen the rash of critical charge macro slice builds that apply their damage on the charge at range, dawnbreaker at short range (with the ticks totally unavoidable even if you move or evaded them) and macrosliced reverse slices/executioners that hit at range and when you are in the middle of a dodge roll is blind. It's not cheating if it's your exploitative way of "gaming" the system.

Here is the insidious part of the whole thing... The exploited charge (applying damage at range) isn't avoidable by reaction or miat's as it's being exploited to apply it's damage in an unavoidable way. The moves being paired with that "noble and skillful" play style that involves pressing a couple buttons are also not going to be telegraphed with miats (even if they were, it wouldn't matter).

So you have a play style that benefits from the telegraphed warnings that has found a niche where the telegraphed warning won't help their opponent.

It's not really the addon that's the issue imo. It's mostly exploited charge builds that macroslice and their desire to be invulnerable while doing it. The only thing the two have in common (past being used in conjunction) is ZOS seems oblivious to them both.

Interesting. I won't sit here and pretend to know what Miat thinks, but your post made me chuckle. Made me chuckle because I have fought Miat open world and readily accepted his 5 out of 5 duel challenge. In both situations he relies on range and uses his bow to constantly peck at you with arrows, then he ambushes in, fear, incap strike, dead. If you don't happen to die he just rinses and repeats.

Edit: What I am saying is that he plays a lot at range for offense.

Jayman1000

DDuke wrote: »

So you can somehow see opponents cast timers as part of the normal gameplay? Even when you can't see opponents animations (i.e. they're stealthed/out of your camera angle)?
What the API permits this addon to do (by a flaw/bug in the design) is absolutely beyond "normal gameplay", this should be obvious.

Hey I don't like it either. I don't think it should be possible. But that doesn't make it an exploit or cheat. ZOS are allowing this information in their API, they haven't taken it out, thus an addon can retrieve the information and display it to the player. While I will admit that there is always a small risk that ZOS is not fully aware of this situation, I highly highly doubt it. All things considered it seems more than likely that ZOS is aware and allowing it, thus: within normal gameplay, not beyond intended design.

DDuke

Jayman1000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So you can somehow see opponents cast timers as part of the normal gameplay? Even when you can't see opponents animations (i.e. they're stealthed/out of your camera angle)?
What the API permits this addon to do (by a flaw/bug in the design) is absolutely beyond "normal gameplay", this should be obvious.

Hey I don't like it either. I don't think it should be possible. But that doesn't make it an exploit or cheat. ZOS are allowing this information in their API, they haven't taken it out, thus an addon can retrieve the information and display it to the player. While I will admit that there is always a small risk that ZOS is not fully aware of this situation, I highly highly doubt it. All things considered it seems more than likely that ZOS is aware and allowing it, thus: within normal gameplay, not beyond intended design.

Oh, they are aware of it now:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, just letting you know that we have seen and read this thread, and have brought it to the team's attention.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4557011#Comment_4557011


But I still don't follow the logic of "something is possible/allowed, hence it can't be a cheat/exploit".

Sharpened Maces, Double Mundus, teleporting into enemy keeps - all of these were allowed & in game for months, in some cases years before they got fixed. And yes, I'm quite sure ZOS was aware of them.

Still, all of those were considered exploits by the player base pretty much the moment they became known. In a certain way, Miat's is much more of a cheat/exploit than those exploits ever were due to it requiring a 3rd party plugin.

How they intend things to turn out is not always what happens in practice, that's how bugs & flaws are born (not just in game, but also in the API & its code) and them taking a long time to fix those doesn't make them intended game design (not by any stretch of imagination).


The only thing that something being "allowed" means is that you're unlikely to get banned for it, which has been the case for pretty much every exploit in this game (except item duping, which I know got some people banned as it had a huge effect on the game).

KingMagaw

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Hey I don't like it either. I don't think it should be possible. But that doesn't make it an exploit or cheat. ZOS are allowing this information in their API, they haven't taken it out, thus an addon can retrieve the information and display it to the player. While I will admit that there is always a small risk that ZOS is not fully aware of this situation, I highly highly doubt it. All things considered it seems more than likely that ZOS is aware and allowing it, thus: within normal gameplay, not beyond intended design.

I will add that Miatts addon was working and providing a lot more information before players complained and ZOS changed there API the first time. The first time your argument was made and ZOS changed API restricting how much was available for addons to use.

My hopes is that they will do so again.


Additionally, not everyone starts with this addon. How many new players have entered into Cyrodill and been at a DISTINCT disadvantage, this should not be so if anyone cares about a level playing field for all.

Maikon

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

TheMaster wrote: »

I don’t use this add-on because I don’t really do PVP, but if ZOS has not gone on the record and declared this to be cheating, then it’s not a cheating. Doesn’t matter how people personally feel about it.

@TheMaster
You should PvP more often and you'll know how much of an advantage the addon offers the user.
I've fought a lot of the addon users (friends and foe alike) and they said Miat's help a lot with the visual & graphical cues so sometimes it's too much and they're relatively vet players too.

And no, I'm not complaining. Just saying that based on my experience, it does offer an edge over players who don't use it.

Yea, it does give an advantage, and you do sound like you're complaining, which is ironic since you have a quote saying "There is no clean fight in a war". Cyro is war, it shouldn't be "fair".

Cyro shouldn't be fair? So you are suggesting that it's ok to use actual cheats in PvP? It's just a game and it should be fair u know? He uses quote from real world.

It's not a cheat, and anyone who says it is hasn't come across someone using actual cheats.

Miat's is a joke compared to 3 other private add-ons. If you think his is cheating, then those 3 are straight up hacking, yet they all use the API that's available.

You don't decide what is and what isan't cheating, ZOS does. They've looked at it and made changes to the API, and they've said it isan't cheating. And the only reason they're looking into it again is because they're tired of all your crying.

Tavore1138

FWIW - Not going to delve into whether it is cheating or not, but I have less respect for players who use this than I do for those that play 'clean' and I will not use it myself.

Maikon

KingMagaw wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Hey I don't like it either. I don't think it should be possible. But that doesn't make it an exploit or cheat. ZOS are allowing this information in their API, they haven't taken it out, thus an addon can retrieve the information and display it to the player. While I will admit that there is always a small risk that ZOS is not fully aware of this situation, I highly highly doubt it. All things considered it seems more than likely that ZOS is aware and allowing it, thus: within normal gameplay, not beyond intended design.

I will add that Miatts addon was working and providing a lot more information before players complained and ZOS changed there API the first time. The first time your argument was made and ZOS changed API restricting how much was available for addons to use.

My hopes is that they will do so again.


Additionally, not everyone starts with this addon. How many new players have entered into Cyrodill and been at a DISTINCT disadvantage, this should not be so if anyone cares about a level playing field for all.

A level playing field? There should be no such thing and there will be no such thing as long as macros and cheat engine exist, so complaining about something that is allowed vs something that isant, is just plain ignorant.

geonsocal

sadly i use this meme way too often here on the forums...

Jayman1000

DDuke wrote: »

But I still don't follow the logic of "something is possible/allowed, hence it can't be a cheat/exploit".

I think there is a huge difference between possible and allowed. If something is possible it's not necessarily an exploit, though it could be. But if something is allowed it is not an exploit, which was my point in my reply to you. I agree that if ZOS was not aware of this (as per your Gina quote) then yeah, in that light it might be an exploit. Im just simply amazed if this, the date of 10th of October, is the first day they realize what this addon can do.

Shardan4968

Maikon wrote: »

Shardan4968 wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

TheMaster wrote: »

I don’t use this add-on because I don’t really do PVP, but if ZOS has not gone on the record and declared this to be cheating, then it’s not a cheating. Doesn’t matter how people personally feel about it.

@TheMaster
You should PvP more often and you'll know how much of an advantage the addon offers the user.
I've fought a lot of the addon users (friends and foe alike) and they said Miat's help a lot with the visual & graphical cues so sometimes it's too much and they're relatively vet players too.

And no, I'm not complaining. Just saying that based on my experience, it does offer an edge over players who don't use it.

Yea, it does give an advantage, and you do sound like you're complaining, which is ironic since you have a quote saying "There is no clean fight in a war". Cyro is war, it shouldn't be "fair".

Cyro shouldn't be fair? So you are suggesting that it's ok to use actual cheats in PvP? It's just a game and it should be fair u know? He uses quote from real world.

It's not a cheat, and anyone who says it is hasn't come across someone using actual cheats.

Miat's is a joke compared to 3 other private add-ons. If you think his is cheating, then those 3 are straight up hacking, yet they all use the API that's available.

You don't decide what is and what isan't cheating, ZOS does. They've looked at it and made changes to the API, and they've said it isan't cheating. And the only reason they're looking into it again is because they're tired of all your crying.

I wasn't talking about Miat's addon at that moment, but about your ridiculous logic, when you said that Cyro is a war and shouldn't be fair. And it's impressive that you know exactly what ZOS thinks about our discussion, well done!

Maikon

Jayman1000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

But I still don't follow the logic of "something is possible/allowed, hence it can't be a cheat/exploit".

I think there is a huge difference between possible and allowed. If something is possible it's not necessarily an exploit, though it could be. But if something is allowed it is not an exploit, which was my point in my reply to you. I agree that if ZOS was not aware of this (as per your Gina quote) then yeah, in that light it might be an exploit. Im just simply amazed if this, the date of 10th of October, is the first day they realize what this addon can do.

First time they've know about it? LOL, they fully tested miat's add-on way back when people started crying about it and made the changes they found appropriate. People are just trying to make up false narratives because they just don't like the add-on.

DDuke

Maikon wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

But I still don't follow the logic of "something is possible/allowed, hence it can't be a cheat/exploit".

I think there is a huge difference between possible and allowed. If something is possible it's not necessarily an exploit, though it could be. But if something is allowed it is not an exploit, which was my point in my reply to you. I agree that if ZOS was not aware of this (as per your Gina quote) then yeah, in that light it might be an exploit. Im just simply amazed if this, the date of 10th of October, is the first day they realize what this addon can do.

First time they've know about it? LOL, they fully tested miat's add-on way back when people started crying about it and made the changes they found appropriate. People are just trying to make up false narratives because they just don't like the add-on.

Really, they fully tested it? I didn't know you had such inside information. Maybe you can tell us some other details about those tests?

I just find it odd they in their post omitted entirely the addon showing cast timers for ability casts you can't even see - sounds like an important bit you'd want to atleast mention after fully testing something.

Especially when they later come up with a statement saying such things shouldn't happen:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

Curious, very curious.


You know, there are ways of dealing with ranged builds with cast time abilities that doesn't involve cheating.

KingMagaw

Maikon wrote: »

KingMagaw wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Hey I don't like it either. I don't think it should be possible. But that doesn't make it an exploit or cheat. ZOS are allowing this information in their API, they haven't taken it out, thus an addon can retrieve the information and display it to the player. While I will admit that there is always a small risk that ZOS is not fully aware of this situation, I highly highly doubt it. All things considered it seems more than likely that ZOS is aware and allowing it, thus: within normal gameplay, not beyond intended design.

I will add that Miatts addon was working and providing a lot more information before players complained and ZOS changed there API the first time. The first time your argument was made and ZOS changed API restricting how much was available for addons to use.

My hopes is that they will do so again.


Additionally, not everyone starts with this addon. How many new players have entered into Cyrodill and been at a DISTINCT disadvantage, this should not be so if anyone cares about a level playing field for all.

A level playing field? There should be no such thing and there will be no such thing as long as macros and cheat engine exist, so complaining about something that is allowed vs something that isant, is just plain ignorant.

You must be new?. I have been very vocal on each of these subjects on the point ZOS has banned me from forums but recently let me back on, so yes i advocate that all these aspects should be looked at. I am actively discussing all the points you listed lol

Thanks for your input though

LegendaryMage

What's interesting is that people who are like 'it's in the game so it's alright' are definitely not concerned with balance of any kind.

To me an exploit is an exploit is an exploit etc etc.

I could care less if ZOS comes out tomorrow and says 'cheat engine is allowed, multiple munduses are allowed, miat's crutchlerts is allowed, whatever else is allowed' I would still call it out for what it is, either an exploit or an unfair advantage, better known as a 'crutch'. I like to call this add-on a crutch. Until the questionable features are done away with, this is a crutch. It's been a crutch before, it's a crutch now, and it's going to stay a crutch tomorrow if left unchanged.

In this case it's tricky to 'technically' call something a cheat if it's allowed in the game, but I want to see anyone argue that this is balanced and should stay. I really want to hear those arguments, and they better be out of this world to convince me that it's totally fine.

And you know what, even if you don't want to call something an exploit, a cheat, a whatever - let's just agree that it's wrong and it shouldn't be in the game and not waste a single minute debating whether something is an exploit or not, but rather debating whether something should BE in the game or NOT.

We are wasting time arguing with people who are supportive of it, we are wasting time arguing with players who are working on it, we need to explain to Wheeler and Lambert that this is really messed up, and the good old PVP that we used to have is morphing into something that old-timers such as myself are really getting tired of.

(I'm actually just getting ready to checkout my copy of Battlefield 1, I'll still be playing ESO but there's no way that I'll ever play it as much as I did before if things don't move in the right direction).

Skoomah

The fact that MIAT isn't banned yet goes to show ZOS doesn't take cheats and exploits seriously. Cyrodiil experience is garbage. Lag, exploits, cheats, Zerg fest. The other day I saw a guy flying across the field like Superman. Everyone in my group was like "WTF was that?". Ban these hackers completely. I was rudely minded why I don't go to cyrodiil anymore. Such a shame because this game is fun but ZOS keeps letting this bull crap persist.

I'm always seeking quality encounters. Fights that take skill and back and forth like a chess match. But these hackers take the fun out of it. We're always left wondering, was the person cheating? I'm sure someone can't pull off 4 skills in 1 second? Why is this person's health barely budging? How is this person animation canceling while jumping? How the heck did that person just fly across the screen? I didnt see the heal go off how is this persons health not moving? Why can't I finish off this person past the last 2% hp? How is this person moving so freaking fast?

FLuFFyxMuFFiN

I don't really PvP therefore I don't care.

Ackwalan

Miat had kept this add-on private for a while. What kind of add-on do you think he is using now?

Shardan4968

Ackwalan wrote: »

Miat had kept this add-on private for a while. What kind of add-on do you think he is using now?

Wallhack?

vamp_emily

I don't think this addon is cheating, however it is giving players an unfair advantage. I have heard a few comments in zone chat saying something like "5 enemy near Ray - miat". So I'm assuming players are using this addon to scout out threats.

zeni just needs to update their api to prevent some of the information addon creators have access to. I personally think Zeni should test and approve addons before they go public.

Skoomah

You should care, ZOS balances the game with pvp and pve at the same time. They are balancing the game more off the math and statistics and data more than actually sitting around and playing it. These hackers are skewing the numbers and ZOS changes the game around flawed data.

Mitrenga

What's next, aimbot?

Shardan4968

vamp_emily wrote: »

I don't think this addon is cheating, however it is giving players an unfair advantage. I have heard a few comments in zone chat saying something like "5 enemy near Ray - miat". So I'm assuming players are using this addon to scout out threats.

zeni just needs to update their api to prevent some of the information addon creators have access to. I personally think Zeni should test and approve addons before they go public.

Unfair advantage = cheating

And I think that ZOS should approve not only public addons. You should send your addon to Zeni and after few weeks of testing they should tell you If you are allowed to use it or not, then we would at least know their clear state about Miat's Addon, but they don't want to be responsible for any addon so we have this mess here.

Nyladreas

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Hmmmm, did not watch it, did not remotely care too, I completely agree with @DDuke and many others in the essence in that PvP Alerts is basically a hack, and it is really pathetic that so many players, some of which I know, use it and think it is ok.

And for all the wannabe hackers who think this crutch crap is ok and tries to flame me, good luck with that, right and wrong, this garbage is wrong, end of story.

L2P properly with those of us who fight with honour in PvP or duelling or BG, or gtfo.

There is no honour in 21st century.

Also, all is fair in love and war.

Also, don't see a reason why you shouldn't adapt and get the addon yourself. If everyone has it noone will complain. Not to mention that...

If you're damn good without them, you'll be a god with them.

geonsocal

Mitrenga wrote: »

What's next, aimbot?

geonsocal

DoShazarr wrote: »

Also, don't see a reason why you shouldn't adapt and get the addon yourself. If everyone has it noone will complain. Not to mention that...

DDuke

DoShazarr wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Hmmmm, did not watch it, did not remotely care too, I completely agree with @DDuke and many others in the essence in that PvP Alerts is basically a hack, and it is really pathetic that so many players, some of which I know, use it and think it is ok.

And for all the wannabe hackers who think this crutch crap is ok and tries to flame me, good luck with that, right and wrong, this garbage is wrong, end of story.

L2P properly with those of us who fight with honour in PvP or duelling or BG, or gtfo.

There is no honour in 21st century.

Also, all is fair in love and war.

Also, don't see a reason why you shouldn't adapt and get the addon yourself. If everyone has it noone will complain. Not to mention that...

If you're damn good without them, you'll be a god with them.

If only it were that simple. I do actually use it with my current melee build (which is barely, if at all negatively affected by other people having the addon).

However, I already decided I would rather quit this game than spend another patch playing practically the same melee build I've been playing for past 2 years.


And what do you know, in next patch ZOS is making changes that makes bow viable again - except that this 3rd party cheat still exists.


The problem isn't entirely that people using this addon have an advantage - the problem is that this addon and other private ones doing the same thing are making entire playstyles unviable, pigeonholing people into playing the current meta builds that aren't negatively affected by it.

rfennell_ESO

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The arguments made in the thread can always be interpreted differently than their explanations...

I agree the addon isn't cheating. However it's obviously not something ZOS intended which makes it exploitative.

The problem with many of the arguments is they pose a scenario that people will tend to agree with because it's myopic in scope, and it's made so intentionally. So while true, it's also a lie.

The idea that it was created to "not be ganked (by basement dwelling opportunists!)" is true and also a lie. Sure, you can argue it eliminates a certain play style that players that have evolved their gameplay into a very particular mold are vulnerable to. Thing is, the addon is certainly used on all ranged projectiles in combat... not just ranged projectiles from stealth. As a dodge rolly stamblade the author wasn't really getting ganked, as any nightblade that has the common sense of having cloak on a bar (bonus points for riding a mount with that bar active!) isn't quite "gankable". So the addon serves another purpose entirely and is used for that purpose. It's to prevent them from being ranged, which is the builds weakness.

Anyone that pvp's and "has never EVER (EVAR!) seen cheating has narrowed their definition of cheating to "what's possible in game without memory hacking the client isn't cheating". Anyone that hasn't seen the rash of critical charge macro slice builds that apply their damage on the charge at range, dawnbreaker at short range (with the ticks totally unavoidable even if you move or evaded them) and macrosliced reverse slices/executioners that hit at range and when you are in the middle of a dodge roll is blind. It's not cheating if it's your exploitative way of "gaming" the system.

Here is the insidious part of the whole thing... The exploited charge (applying damage at range) isn't avoidable by reaction or miat's as it's being exploited to apply it's damage in an unavoidable way. The moves being paired with that "noble and skillful" play style that involves pressing a couple buttons are also not going to be telegraphed with miats (even if they were, it wouldn't matter).

So you have a play style that benefits from the telegraphed warnings that has found a niche where the telegraphed warning won't help their opponent.

It's not really the addon that's the issue imo. It's mostly exploited charge builds that macroslice and their desire to be invulnerable while doing it. The only thing the two have in common (past being used in conjunction) is ZOS seems oblivious to them both.

Interesting. I won't sit here and pretend to know what Miat thinks, but your post made me chuckle. Made me chuckle because I have fought Miat open world and readily accepted his 5 out of 5 duel challenge. In both situations he relies on range and uses his bow to constantly peck at you with arrows, then he ambushes in, fear, incap strike, dead. If you don't happen to die he just rinses and repeats.

Edit: What I am saying is that he plays a lot at range for offense.

I've never seen miat in game and as a primarily AD player I tend not to notice what much of my own alliance does. I'm sure he doesn't use any ranged attacks with a cast time though... The addon is only somewhat helpful at alerts for instant cast ranged abilities.

What I have seen is the plethora of Charge builds that all seem to be using the addon that do what I described.

It's easy to tell because the addon shows the start of the cast of any ranged ability with a cast time and that can easily be block cancelled to see who is using it or if you already know it's a user to make the monkey start dodge rolling on command. I always say "dodge monkey dodge" before I block cast on them, it's somewhat ridiculous to be able to predict what someone is going to do when you are in stealth and haven't actually attacked them yet.

jaws343

DoShazarr wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Hmmmm, did not watch it, did not remotely care too, I completely agree with @DDuke and many others in the essence in that PvP Alerts is basically a hack, and it is really pathetic that so many players, some of which I know, use it and think it is ok.

And for all the wannabe hackers who think this crutch crap is ok and tries to flame me, good luck with that, right and wrong, this garbage is wrong, end of story.

L2P properly with those of us who fight with honour in PvP or duelling or BG, or gtfo.

There is no honour in 21st century.

Also, all is fair in love and war.

Also, don't see a reason why you shouldn't adapt and get the addon yourself. If everyone has it noone will complain. Not to mention that...

If you're damn good without them, you'll be a god with them.

People fail to realize the impact of add-ons that provide unfair advantages effect far more than the PC community. ZOS balances skills and game mechanics around the results of people running add-ons and those effects are pushed to console players who do not (and should not) have these crutches to lean on.

The change to Clever Alchemist's ability outside of combat is a recent example. ZOS changed their based game code rather than restricting the ability of a third party resource because reasons. This change is being pushed out to console users who do not even have the ability to exploit the gear mechanics (in the same way) if they wanted to. If anyone thinks that is an OK solution, I don't know what more can even be said here.

FloppyTouch

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

How about honorable face to face fighting?

I don't use stealth at all on my magDK because I like to face my opponents in honorable fights without any stealth shiet. This way I don't care if my opponent uses the addon or not because it gives him no advantage over me at all.

Face your opponents with pride and honor. The addon will not bother you then.

To add, everybody should make their opinion on the addon.
I am magDK with no addon and I fight a player with the addon. He has no advantage over me at all because I don't cowardly start from stealth. So I can't call him cheater for anything because in this case the addon doesn't do anything useful for the user.
So it's not cheating IMO, but that's just my opinion.

A true mdk