ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

Jayman1000

thedude33 wrote: »

Doesn't mean ZoS likes the idea of Miats, just that they don't have the resources to deal with it.

If this issue, after so long time, is SO hard for ZOS to fix as you seem to indicate it is... Im afraid the future look very bleak for ZOS and us as players. If they really are so incompetent then anything they attempt to do will be a major insurmountable obstacle. Seriously, of course this has nothing to do with resources, ZOS isn't incompetent.

agegarton

laced wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

This thread defines the term “first world problems”. I’m sick and tired of these “cheater” posts.

I have been playing this game since the beta. I have logged more online hours than I’m prepared to post (you know..... in case my wife sees it), but I’m pretty clear that I have logged more hours than the vast majority of players. I have completed every single quest several times across about 16 alts and four accounts, spent huge amounts of time in PVP in Cyrodiil and in the Imperial City and Sewers, and I farm mats and resources for some pretty major trade.

I can safely say that not once - not one single time - have I been bothered by a bot, a Zerg, an add on user, a gold seller, or any so-called “cheat”. That’s not to say I haven’t seen all of the above, but as a grown-up I know when to say “it’s a game” and just move on. Experience not ruined.

Perhaps if you all spent more time just playing the game than whining like spoilt schoolgirls on these forums, you’d have a better time in Tamriel.

Pretty sure the people content with cheating are the problem, not the people hoping for a product they pay for to function without being cheated by outside add ons.

Funny, I’m pretty sure the problem is the holier-than-thou forum crusader who believes he speaks for the entire gaming community.

My point was, and still is, that there’s no need to get your knickers in a twist over what you deem to be cheating. Take this add-on for example. It’s pretty clear that it is NOT cheating. It’s a legitimate API call. ZOS has confirmed same. So what you mean is, you don’t like it. So, you’re a bit cross because you don’t like it, and you’re cross with me because I don’t give a rats backside that you don’t like it....? Ok.

Samadhi

DDuke wrote: »

...
It gives you opponents' cast timers even when you can't see them (not part of the base game/design intent obviously) and pretty much ruins any build utilizing cast time abilities.

Jayman1000 wrote: »

....
If we could take the thought a bit further though: consider that invisible archer player in the video you linked. How can he become invisible from such close distance and then vanish in a cloud of smoke? I mean what is the explanation that he is invisible? Is he casting an invisible spell on himself? Clearly from that range it would be impossible to completely conceal yourself as to become 100% invisible. But that is exactly what is showed in the video (I don't like that either btw). That could be perceived as cheating too, but it isn't because it's part of the game, it's intentional.

jaws343

eso_nya wrote: »

From december 2016.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/308947/miats-pvp-alerts/p4

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon was brought to our attention earlier in the week, and we’ve been running some internal tests on it to gauge functionality and impact. We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result. Here’s an explanation of how it works, and what it does and doesn’t do:

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon is built upon actions done by players that the combat log records. This includes sprinting, casting an ability, weapon swapping, drinking a potion, stealthing, etc. If a player executes any of those actions, basic messages are sent to the server and clients. This mod hooks into those notifications and filters them to give information about who is in the area. That info is then turned into either a KOS list determined by the player, a stealthier list, or simply an incremental value of players in the area (all are a rough estimation.)

The KOS list, specifically, is simply another layer on top of the above options, where the addon looks for specific players that you can choose to add to a list. When those players perform an action within your existing area of detection, you will be notified that they are in the area. You are not provided info on exactly where they are. Here are a few specific examples:

• If someone is in your existing area of detection and they fully enter stealth, the addon will notify you of the name of the player character that successfully went fully “hidden.”
• If someone is already stealthed and you’re traveling near then, or enter the area they were initially already stealthed in, you will not be notified of that player.
• If someone uses a Nightblade ability that results in them vanishing, they will not trigger the addon’s alert unless they enter the real “hidden” state (i.e. the eye on the HUD is closed).

Lastly this addon adds a kill spam list which shows you when someone has died in your existing area of detection, and to what ability. When you first get these messages, it simply says “Someone has died to Dark Flare.” When you start to get more information on the players around you, it adds that player name to the Saved Variables file for PVPAlerts.lua, then starts to add that information into your UI while playing.

Note that in all the above examples, you are not notified of exactly where the player is. This addon does not add a little blip to your map or compass, and does not give you an overlay that points out specifically where players are. This addon is not radar, a Doppler, or any other means of giving away another player’s exact position.

We want to thank everyone for sharing your concerns with us about this addon.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Are we allowed to use this addon until you decide upon a judgement?

At this time, we will not be taking action on accounts using this addon.

Anyone else find this statement from ZOS ridiculous? If someone is in your area of detection but you have not actually seen them with your own eyes, then you should have no indication that another player is in the area. It shouldn't matter if they are following behind you or standing right in front of you uncloaked. No visual by the player, no notification. And as far as I know, the game cannot tell if your eyes have seen a player or not.

I really hope mods never come to the Xbox. The mental gymnastics being used to justify these types of add-ons are embarrassing.

Cherryblossom

it's using the API, so it's not cheating.

Is it a massive advantage over other players, No, we have very few one on one fights, it's all zergs, so yes you may get alerted to one Crystal frag that you may block or roll from, but you will still get hit by the spear, snipe, crushing shock it hasn't told you about.

Lets face it one to one, you will see the crystal frag or snipe coming so arguably you don't need it.

Derra

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

thedude33 wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

The accent is perfect for this guy all things considered

I love it.

He sounds exactly how I imagined.

@Malic @thedude33 could you elaborate further what you mean by that?

Like a sad, lonely being that cannot be honest even in a video game, so he cheats.

There are "lonely being that cheats in videogame" accents? That´s new to me

Are you triggered because you sound similar

Why do i sound triggered to you?

I´m just trying to get the hillbilly logic that associates certain character traits/behavior and accent or tone of voice or anything else that a person has hardly any influence on.
"Oh you hear that? English is clearly not his first language - he must be a person of dubious morale."

http://i.imgur.com/9evGLOY.gif

"HurrDurr I'm not triggered"
"HurrDurr let me call you a hillbilly"
"HurrDurr muh engrish is fine"

Yeah.

Where did i call you hillbilly? Care to point that out to me?
Where did i say i´m not triggered? I just asked why you perceive me as triggered.

Jayman1000

jaws343 wrote: »

I really hope mods never come to the Xbox.

Don't worry, that'll never happen. On the flip side I really hope purely console mechanics and concepts never comes to the PC. Oh wait that already happened.

tplink3r1

It's not cheating by definition, either you like it or not.

DDuke

tplink3r1 wrote: »

It's not cheating by definition, either you like it or not.

Video game exploits
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about exploited glitches in video games. For the video game, see Exploit (video game).

This article possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations. Statements consisting only of original research should be removed. (December 2014) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]

You can even throw the highlighted portion away in this particular case, as addons like Miat's are 3rd party plugins and not part of the base game.

LegendaryMage

Why are we still talking about this crap add-on? ZOS has proved that they don't care about leveling out the playing field for everyone, and so crutch players come along with crutch add-ons under the excuse that it's ok because it's in the game, nothing unexpected there. The most common excuse anyone could give.

The only excuse that is (in my opinion) even more golden than that one, is when perma banned players come back on new accounts and when asked why they got banned, they reply with the most idiotic egoistic excuse ever, how they were too good and too many people reported them.

tplink3r1

DDuke wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

It's not cheating by definition, either you like it or not.

Video game exploits
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about exploited glitches in video games. For the video game, see Exploit (video game).

This article possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations. Statements consisting only of original research should be removed. (December 2014) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]

"in a manner not intended by the game's designers."
Thanks for proving my point.

That definition is still very off though, and that's expected coming from Wikipedia. Cheating has always been characterized by violation of game rules.

DDuke

tplink3r1 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

It's not cheating by definition, either you like it or not.

Video game exploits
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about exploited glitches in video games. For the video game, see Exploit (video game).

This article possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations. Statements consisting only of original research should be removed. (December 2014) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]

"in a manner not intended by the game's designers."
Thanks for proving my point.

Please provide your source that developers' intention is/was that players are able to see unseen opponents' cast timers.

The last official word providing any clue of their intention for addons/API was this:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

Also, surely if their intention was that no one should be able to use cast time abilities in PvP, they'd not only stop creating/improving cast time abilities, but also reflect this design philosophy on consoles (where no addons exist).

Derra

LegendaryMage wrote: »

The only excuse that is (in my opinion) even more golden than that one, is when perma banned players come back on new accounts and when asked why they got banned, they reply with the most idiotic egoistic excuse ever, how they were too good and too many people reported them.

That happened before.

Not that i think it would happen nowadays. But it did happen. ZOS at that time also admitted it did happen. So we can´t really be too sure.

LegendaryMage

Derra wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

The only excuse that is (in my opinion) even more golden than that one, is when perma banned players come back on new accounts and when asked why they got banned, they reply with the most idiotic egoistic excuse ever, how they were too good and too many people reported them.

That happened before.

Not that i think it would happen nowadays. But it did happen. ZOS at that time also admitted it did happen. So we can´t really be too sure.

Give me one example, I don't know of anyone who got banned for being reported too many times, but know a few good exploiters and cheaters who came back and provided this excuse. I also know that I was personally reported many times by groups of players and I'm still there, no issues at all.

Jayman1000

jaws343 wrote: »

• If someone is in your existing area of detection and they fully enter stealth, the addon will notify you of the name of the player character that successfully went fully “hidden.”
• If someone is already stealthed and you’re traveling near then, or enter the area they were initially already stealthed in, you will not be notified of that player.
• If someone uses a Nightblade ability that results in them vanishing, they will not trigger the addon’s alert unless they enter the real “hidden” state (i.e. the eye on the HUD is closed).

Anyone else find this statement from ZOS ridiculous? If someone is in your area of detection but you have not actually seen them with your own eyes, then you should have no indication that another player is in the area. It shouldn't matter if they are following behind you or standing right in front of you uncloaked. No visual by the player, no notification. And as far as I know, the game cannot tell if your eyes have seen a player or not.

But "If someone is already stealthed and you’re traveling near then, or enter the area they were initially already stealthed in, you will not be notified of that player.". Miats addon won't notify you in this instance will it?

It's quite obvious from the ZOS post that they do not feel the addon is cheating or exploiting. We may agree or not, but the fact remains: it's not cheating and it's not exploiting. There's no doubt that ZOS could have made the API changes to stop it if they wanted to, but they haven't.

Apache_Kid

Blows my mind that ZoS continues to allow this to be used by players. It is at times like these that I am actually glad i play on Xbox for once. I would never go in to PvP if i played on PC because of this. The definition of cheese. I wonder how many of the posters in here defending this add-on also use it? I cannot otherwise imagine advocating for the continued existence of this add-on.

Publius_Scipio

I admire your will for the fight DDuke. But the reality is (no matter the definition or what anyone thinks) if ZOS allows it in their game then it is not cheating and we must accept that if we want to play. I don't like the addon. Unless I missed it I haven't seen anyone argue that it doesn't provide the player with advantages over someone who isn't using it. It is what it is.

Edit: I do agree with what Legendary Mage said in a thread in the PTS forums about this topic.

Derra

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

The only excuse that is (in my opinion) even more golden than that one, is when perma banned players come back on new accounts and when asked why they got banned, they reply with the most idiotic egoistic excuse ever, how they were too good and too many people reported them.

That happened before.

Not that i think it would happen nowadays. But it did happen. ZOS at that time also admitted it did happen. So we can´t really be too sure.

Give me one example, I don't know of anyone who got banned for being reported too many times, but know a few good exploiters and cheaters who came back and provided this excuse. I also know that I was personally reported many times by groups of players and I'm still there, no issues at all.

Ezareth got banned and unbanned bc he got reportet for streaking too much - because neither players nor devs understood how dark conversion worked with a really small stamina pool back in the days when it was % based.
He posted his convos with ingame support in a vid or on the forums - can´t remember which.

DDuke

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I admire your will for the fight DDuke. But the reality is (no matter the definition or what anyone thinks) if ZOS allows it in their game then it is not cheating and we must accept that if we want to play. I don't like the addon. Unless I missed it I haven't seen anyone argue that it doesn't provide the player with advantages over someone who isn't using it. It is what it is.

Edit: I do agree with what Legendary Mage said in a thread in the PTS forums about this topic.

Well, until ZOS comes up with a statement that this is intended behaviour by the game's API, I will consider it cheating whether ZOS allows it or not (after all, they "allowed" people to use Sharpened Maces when they were bugged, same with Double Mundus, teleporting into enemy keeps etc).

Whether it's exploiting or cheating (or if those are the same thing) is a matter of its own, there's even a whole wikipedia article discussing the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits

Some key quotes from the article:

Whether an exploit is considered a cheat, or all exploits are cheats, is a matter of widespread debate that varies between genres, games, and other factors. The distinction is important as it decides how the developers and community responds to the issue and to the players who exploit the issue. On the one hand exploits can be considered illegitimate cheats that the developers should address and exploiters should be banned, while on the other hand exploits can be considered simply part of the game.

Arguments in favor of the cheating view involve the spirit of the game and the potentially damaging effects of the exploit on the game's community.[3][4] While the rules or game code may not explicitly disallow a specific exploit, it may be seen that using that exploit goes against the spirit of the game.[3] The potential damage of an exploit on a game has been described by a World of Warcraft community manager as "devastating".[4]

In defense of these behaviors are arguments that the rules of the game allow it and that players might not know they are behaving against the designer's intention.[5][6] So-called exploits, in this view, are not cheats because they do not change the game in any way and therefore could be accessible to all players if they know how to do it.[2] The players who use such techniques may consider them fair for use in the game in cases when they are not explicitly disallowed in the Terms of Service or other such rules governing participation.

Publius_Scipio

DDuke wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I admire your will for the fight DDuke. But the reality is (no matter the definition or what anyone thinks) if ZOS allows it in their game then it is not cheating and we must accept that if we want to play. I don't like the addon. Unless I missed it I haven't seen anyone argue that it doesn't provide the player with advantages over someone who isn't using it. It is what it is.

Edit: I do agree with what Legendary Mage said in a thread in the PTS forums about this topic.

Well, until ZOS comes up with a statement that this is intended behaviour by the game's API, I will consider it cheating whether ZOS allows it or not (after all, they "allowed" people to use Sharpened Maces when they were bugged, same with Double Mundus, teleporting into enemy keeps etc).

Whether it's exploiting or cheating (or if those are the same thing) is a matter of its own, there's even a whole wikipedia article discussing the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits

Some key quotes from the article:

Whether an exploit is considered a cheat, or all exploits are cheats, is a matter of widespread debate that varies between genres, games, and other factors. The distinction is important as it decides how the developers and community responds to the issue and to the players who exploit the issue. On the one hand exploits can be considered illegitimate cheats that the developers should address and exploiters should be banned, while on the other hand exploits can be considered simply part of the game.

Arguments in favor of the cheating view involve the spirit of the game and the potentially damaging effects of the exploit on the game's community.[3][4] While the rules or game code may not explicitly disallow a specific exploit, it may be seen that using that exploit goes against the spirit of the game.[3] The potential damage of an exploit on a game has been described by a World of Warcraft community manager as "devastating".[4]

In defense of these behaviors are arguments that the rules of the game allow it and that players might not know they are behaving against the designer's intention.[5][6] So-called exploits, in this view, are not cheats because they do not change the game in any way and therefore could be accessible to all players if they know how to do it.[2] The players who use such techniques may consider them fair for use in the game in cases when they are not explicitly disallowed in the Terms of Service or other such rules governing participation.

I understand what you are saying. What I am saying (and unfortunately so) is that ZOS has publicly stated that they are aware of the Miat addon and are currently allowing it. No one is going to get disciplined for using it. In ESO, ZOS says the addon isn't breaking any of their rules. As much as that is disappointing.

Cpt_Teemo

aliyavana wrote: »

how do you justify creating an addon to counter a playstyle that is part of the game mechanics because its "not fun to play against"

So you really want to sit through all 14 characters on one account doing writs and looking through each one individually to craft?

DDuke

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I admire your will for the fight DDuke. But the reality is (no matter the definition or what anyone thinks) if ZOS allows it in their game then it is not cheating and we must accept that if we want to play. I don't like the addon. Unless I missed it I haven't seen anyone argue that it doesn't provide the player with advantages over someone who isn't using it. It is what it is.

Edit: I do agree with what Legendary Mage said in a thread in the PTS forums about this topic.

Well, until ZOS comes up with a statement that this is intended behaviour by the game's API, I will consider it cheating whether ZOS allows it or not (after all, they "allowed" people to use Sharpened Maces when they were bugged, same with Double Mundus, teleporting into enemy keeps etc).

Whether it's exploiting or cheating (or if those are the same thing) is a matter of its own, there's even a whole wikipedia article discussing the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits

Some key quotes from the article:

Whether an exploit is considered a cheat, or all exploits are cheats, is a matter of widespread debate that varies between genres, games, and other factors. The distinction is important as it decides how the developers and community responds to the issue and to the players who exploit the issue. On the one hand exploits can be considered illegitimate cheats that the developers should address and exploiters should be banned, while on the other hand exploits can be considered simply part of the game.

Arguments in favor of the cheating view involve the spirit of the game and the potentially damaging effects of the exploit on the game's community.[3][4] While the rules or game code may not explicitly disallow a specific exploit, it may be seen that using that exploit goes against the spirit of the game.[3] The potential damage of an exploit on a game has been described by a World of Warcraft community manager as "devastating".[4]

In defense of these behaviors are arguments that the rules of the game allow it and that players might not know they are behaving against the designer's intention.[5][6] So-called exploits, in this view, are not cheats because they do not change the game in any way and therefore could be accessible to all players if they know how to do it.[2] The players who use such techniques may consider them fair for use in the game in cases when they are not explicitly disallowed in the Terms of Service or other such rules governing participation.

I understand what you are saying. What I am saying (and unfortunately so) is that ZOS has publicly stated that they are aware of the Miat addon and are currently allowing it. No one is going to get disciplined for using it. In ESO, ZOS says the addon isn't breaking any of their rules. As much as that is disappointing.

They said that in December 2016 and did not even mention cast timers shown for stealthed opponents (I'm not sure the addon even had that function back then).

This is the post from December 2016:

Hi everyone,

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon was brought to our attention earlier in the week, and we’ve been running some internal tests on it to gauge functionality and impact. We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result. Here’s an explanation of how it works, and what it does and doesn’t do:

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon is built upon actions done by players that the combat log records. This includes sprinting, casting an ability, weapon swapping, drinking a potion, stealthing, etc. If a player executes any of those actions, basic messages are sent to the server and clients. This mod hooks into those notifications and filters them to give information about who is in the area. That info is then turned into either a KOS list determined by the player, a stealthier list, or simply an incremental value of players in the area (all are a rough estimation.)

The KOS list, specifically, is simply another layer on top of the above options, where the addon looks for specific players that you can choose to add to a list. When those players perform an action within your existing area of detection, you will be notified that they are in the area. You are not provided info on exactly where they are. Here are a few specific examples:
If someone is in your existing area of detection and they fully enter stealth, the addon will notify you of the name of the player character that successfully went fully “hidden.”
If someone is already stealthed and you’re traveling near then, or enter the area they were initially already stealthed in, you will not be notified of that player.
If someone uses a Nightblade ability that results in them vanishing, they will not trigger the addon’s alert unless they enter the real “hidden” state (i.e. the eye on the HUD is closed).

Lastly this addon adds a kill spam list which shows you when someone has died in your existing area of detection, and to what ability. When you first get these messages, it simply says “Someone has died to Dark Flare.” When you start to get more information on the players around you, it adds that player name to the Saved Variables file for PVPAlerts.lua, then starts to add that information into your UI while playing.

Note that in all the above examples, you are not notified of exactly where the player is. This addon does not add a little blip to your map or compass, and does not give you an overlay that points out specifically where players are. This addon is not radar, a Doppler, or any other means of giving away another player’s exact position.

We want to thank everyone for sharing your concerns with us about this addon.

Zero mentions whatsoever about cast timers for attacks from unseen opponents.

The most recent post we've had on the other hand (January 2017) implies that no attack from an opponent you cant see should get a notification:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

Publius_Scipio

DDuke wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I admire your will for the fight DDuke. But the reality is (no matter the definition or what anyone thinks) if ZOS allows it in their game then it is not cheating and we must accept that if we want to play. I don't like the addon. Unless I missed it I haven't seen anyone argue that it doesn't provide the player with advantages over someone who isn't using it. It is what it is.

Edit: I do agree with what Legendary Mage said in a thread in the PTS forums about this topic.

Well, until ZOS comes up with a statement that this is intended behaviour by the game's API, I will consider it cheating whether ZOS allows it or not (after all, they "allowed" people to use Sharpened Maces when they were bugged, same with Double Mundus, teleporting into enemy keeps etc).

Whether it's exploiting or cheating (or if those are the same thing) is a matter of its own, there's even a whole wikipedia article discussing the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits

Some key quotes from the article:

Whether an exploit is considered a cheat, or all exploits are cheats, is a matter of widespread debate that varies between genres, games, and other factors. The distinction is important as it decides how the developers and community responds to the issue and to the players who exploit the issue. On the one hand exploits can be considered illegitimate cheats that the developers should address and exploiters should be banned, while on the other hand exploits can be considered simply part of the game.

Arguments in favor of the cheating view involve the spirit of the game and the potentially damaging effects of the exploit on the game's community.[3][4] While the rules or game code may not explicitly disallow a specific exploit, it may be seen that using that exploit goes against the spirit of the game.[3] The potential damage of an exploit on a game has been described by a World of Warcraft community manager as "devastating".[4]

In defense of these behaviors are arguments that the rules of the game allow it and that players might not know they are behaving against the designer's intention.[5][6] So-called exploits, in this view, are not cheats because they do not change the game in any way and therefore could be accessible to all players if they know how to do it.[2] The players who use such techniques may consider them fair for use in the game in cases when they are not explicitly disallowed in the Terms of Service or other such rules governing participation.

I understand what you are saying. What I am saying (and unfortunately so) is that ZOS has publicly stated that they are aware of the Miat addon and are currently allowing it. No one is going to get disciplined for using it. In ESO, ZOS says the addon isn't breaking any of their rules. As much as that is disappointing.

They said that in December 2016 and did not even mention cast timers shown for stealthed opponents (I'm not sure the addon even had that function back then).

This is the post from December 2016:

Hi everyone,

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon was brought to our attention earlier in the week, and we’ve been running some internal tests on it to gauge functionality and impact. We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result. Here’s an explanation of how it works, and what it does and doesn’t do:

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon is built upon actions done by players that the combat log records. This includes sprinting, casting an ability, weapon swapping, drinking a potion, stealthing, etc. If a player executes any of those actions, basic messages are sent to the server and clients. This mod hooks into those notifications and filters them to give information about who is in the area. That info is then turned into either a KOS list determined by the player, a stealthier list, or simply an incremental value of players in the area (all are a rough estimation.)

The KOS list, specifically, is simply another layer on top of the above options, where the addon looks for specific players that you can choose to add to a list. When those players perform an action within your existing area of detection, you will be notified that they are in the area. You are not provided info on exactly where they are. Here are a few specific examples:
If someone is in your existing area of detection and they fully enter stealth, the addon will notify you of the name of the player character that successfully went fully “hidden.”
If someone is already stealthed and you’re traveling near then, or enter the area they were initially already stealthed in, you will not be notified of that player.
If someone uses a Nightblade ability that results in them vanishing, they will not trigger the addon’s alert unless they enter the real “hidden” state (i.e. the eye on the HUD is closed).

Lastly this addon adds a kill spam list which shows you when someone has died in your existing area of detection, and to what ability. When you first get these messages, it simply says “Someone has died to Dark Flare.” When you start to get more information on the players around you, it adds that player name to the Saved Variables file for PVPAlerts.lua, then starts to add that information into your UI while playing.

Note that in all the above examples, you are not notified of exactly where the player is. This addon does not add a little blip to your map or compass, and does not give you an overlay that points out specifically where players are. This addon is not radar, a Doppler, or any other means of giving away another player’s exact position.

We want to thank everyone for sharing your concerns with us about this addon.

Zero mentions whatsoever about cast timers for attacks from unseen opponents.

The most recent post we've had on the other hand implies that no attacks from an opponent you cant see should get a notification:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

Unless I am mistaken I believe that the addon has everything now that it always has had. ZOS only took away from it a few functions. As far as ZOS's responses go, we are all aware that ZOS is very particular with what they comment on and when they comment. ZOS is also very aware that for a very long time players have asked for more consistent dialogue between players and developers since game launch probably.

Jayman1000

DDuke wrote: »

Whether it's exploiting or cheating (or if those are the same thing) is a matter of its own, there's even a whole wikipedia article discussing the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits

"In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] ". But is what Miats addon does actually unintended though?

Note this bit in that same article, which I find very relevant to this discussion: "Positive opinion of the exploit can lead to the designers embracing it as emergent gameplay, such as when skiing in the Tribes series of games gained developer support. The now-standard practice of rocket jumping originated in a similar way, by exploiting game mechanics not foreseen by the developers. Otherwise the developers may try to fix the underlying problem or discourage use of the exploit if the issue cannot be clearly addressed by technical means.". The issue we are talking about can definately be addressed by technical means. The functions allowing Miat to function as it does is created and made public by ZOS themselves. And they haven't changed that, even when it's been happening for a long time. They even responded directly to a thread about Miats addon and made comments about how they had investigated how the addon worked. Yet STILL they do not make any changes to the API that prevent it.... You cannot in good faith keep calling this an exploit unless you bring forth some argument that clearly shows that it is against the developers design intend.

tplink3r1

DDuke wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

tplink3r1 wrote: »

It's not cheating by definition, either you like it or not.

Video game exploits
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about exploited glitches in video games. For the video game, see Exploit (video game).

This article possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations. Statements consisting only of original research should be removed. (December 2014) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] Exploits have been classified as a form of cheating; however, the precise determination of what is or is not considered an exploit can be controversial. This debate stems from a number of factors but typically involves the argument that the issues are part of the game and require no changes or external programs to take advantage of them.[2]

"in a manner not intended by the game's designers."
Thanks for proving my point.

Please provide your source that developers' intention is/was that players are able to see unseen opponents' cast timers.

The last official word providing any clue of their intention for addons/API was this:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

Also, surely if their intention was that no one should be able to use cast time abilities in PvP, they'd not only stop creating/improving cast time abilities, but also reflect this design philosophy on consoles (where no addons exist).

No. I made my negative claim and showed how it doesn't meet the definition, now the onus is on you.

Biro123

The way I see it - it used to use ZoS's public API's to do X,Y,Z.

Zos looked at the addon specifically, decided they didn't like some of it so restricted their API's so it can only do X,Y

Surely that means Zos are ok with the X,Y part?

DDuke

Jayman1000 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Whether it's exploiting or cheating (or if those are the same thing) is a matter of its own, there's even a whole wikipedia article discussing the controversy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits

"In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1] ". But is what Miats addon does actually unintended though?

Note this bit in that same article, which I find very relevant to this discussion: "Positive opinion of the exploit can lead to the designers embracing it as emergent gameplay, such as when skiing in the Tribes series of games gained developer support. The now-standard practice of rocket jumping originated in a similar way, by exploiting game mechanics not foreseen by the developers. Otherwise the developers may try to fix the underlying problem or discourage use of the exploit if the issue cannot be clearly addressed by technical means.". The issue we are talking about can definately be addressed by technical means. The functions allowing Miat to function as it does is created and made public by ZOS themselves. And they haven't changed that, even when it's been happening for a long time. They even responded directly to a thread about Miats addon and made comments about how they had investigated how the addon worked. Yet STILL they do not make any changes to the API that prevent it.... You cannot in good faith keep calling this an exploit unless you bring forth some argument that clearly shows that it is against the developers design intend.

There's several good arguments for that, the first would be the last official word from ZOS on the subject:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

2nd argument would be the omittance of any mention for these cast timers shown for unseen (invisible/out of FoV) players on the earlier reply in 2016, which leads me to believe they weren't even aware of them. Also, In the 2016 post Jessica writes:

This addon is not radar

, which is exactly what this addon is (shows incoming projectiles not just when they're in the air, but before that even happens) - which further reinforces my belief that they simply missed this... "feature" in their QA back in December 2016.

Third, the lack of this... "feature" on consoles as it isn't even made by ZOS. Something so impactful on gameplay would be part of the base game if it was intended and it'd be consistent across platforms so that the game doesn't have to be balanced separately on consoles & PC.

Next: ZOS keeps trying to improve their cast time abilities & keeps creating sets designed for using them (e.g. Asylum Bow). If their intent was to make cast time abilities useless, they wouldn't waste development time on trying to improve them while leaving the main cause of their uselessness untouched.

And lastly: common sense. No sane developer would leave something this detrimental to the game in intentionally. It'd be like claiming that Double Mundus was an intended game mechanic, or that Sharpened Maces were intentionally removing 20% mitigation from target instead of (target's mitigation-20%).

Shardan4968

I just found this beautiful definition from legit source called wikipedia:

Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier or harder. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers), or created by third-party software (a game trainer) or hardware (a cheat cartridge).

I don't know how about you, but this reminds about this addon. I didn't find any definition which includes something about developers allowing players to cheat, tho.

Ashtaris

There is a distinction that needs to be made here. Can Miat use the API to create an add-on that allows players to gain an advantage in PVP? Yes, he can. It's part of the API and until ZOS changes certain sections of it to prevent that, himself and others can create add-on's that will give that PVP advantage. The other question is SHOULD Miat be putting out this add-on? Considering the amount of turmoil and hate it's creating in the PVP community, he might want to consider burying this one

Jade1986

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Miat's addon is NOT cheating. ZOS is the league here, ZOS are the refs, ZOS sets the rules. If Miat's addon is allowed with ZOS's blessing, then it can in no way be cheating. Those that are calling it cheating are misunderstanding.

I don't like Miat's addon. Not because I think it's cheating but because I believe it gives the player using it an advantage over one that isn't using it. I don't believe 3rd party addons/programs should give players advantages (especially in PvP). I just don't see how using it can be considered not being given an advantage. First, all addons are created for some benefit, some advantage to using it. No one uses addons that hinder their play or take away from the game. Miat's (specifically for the purpose of PvP) gives the player a crystal clear cue of an incoming projectile even before the projectile (poison injection, crystal frag, etc) has been fired off. The addon really diminishes the need for awareness in certain (but not few) situations. A player not using the addon must rely on a greater amount of awareness. Also, there was a time when Miat's addon was alerting the player using it of enemies in stealth around him/her, without their knowledge that they were known to be in the area.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is just mine.

Edit: I definitely think ZOS seriously needs to revisit all the API and make some decisions. I always say this when in these threads but I will say it again. Way back when, back when Mr. Paul Sage (Tamriel still remembers you old friend!) called for all API to be closed off to players.... He understood, he knew what would/could happen down the road. I think that says a lot about the whole topic of addons and whatever else may be out there.

Except, it was not allowed with their blessing, so......

ZOS has publicly allowed Miat's addon as "ok". You cannot have disciplinary action levied upon you for using it. I don't like the addon, I have said that many times. But the truth is for now ZOS has allowed it.

They never said that, not once. And like I have said, and others have pointed out, they recently said they are looking into it again, so clearly they are not ok with it.