The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭silky_soft wrote: »Can miat make a addon to counter shields or perma block?
Can ZOS make an addon to counter Miat?
Actually, that's brilliant.
If their problem is that they can't fix the API because it'd affect some PvE addons that utilize same functions, then they could just allow a function through API that makes it so no one can access your combat information and get your cast timers visible.
And this is their excuse no?
They don't talk to us, so who knows.
It might be.2 -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭... and the more relevant question should be, how is this addon good for the game? How is taking away a primary attack from a pvp player good for the game?
How the hell is that a player's responsibility? If that ire was directed at ZOS, I'd actually agree.
But its not. You expect everyone to design addons how YOU want them to. You expect everyone to use addons YOU approve of. How far does it go? Do you call people out for using cheap tactics in PVP? For zerging? Do you call people out for using OP builds/specs?
Get over yourself. You don't get to decide who gets to use what. You only get to decide what you get to use. If you choose not to use something and lose because of it, that's only yourself to blame.
You read, and assume far too much from a simple question.
.1v1 Win/Loss Record in PvP.
1 Wins - 392 Losses (guy was AFK)2 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
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Of course they can fix the Api Lol. They just choose not to.silky_soft wrote: »Can miat make a addon to counter shields or perma block?
Can ZOS make an addon to counter Miat?
Actually, that's brilliant.
If their problem is that they can't fix the API because it'd affect some PvE addons that utilize same functions, then they could just allow a function through API that makes it so no one can access your combat information and get your cast timers visible.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
Goshua✭✭✭✭
Of course they can fix the Api Lol. They just choose not to.silky_soft wrote: »Can miat make a addon to counter shields or perma block?
Can ZOS make an addon to counter Miat?
Actually, that's brilliant.
If their problem is that they can't fix the API because it'd affect some PvE addons that utilize same functions, then they could just allow a function through API that makes it so no one can access your combat information and get your cast timers visible.
You sure? lol1 -
Morgul667✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »@Morgul667
For thread moderators, this is yet another thread that needs to be moderated. It's what they're paid to do. If it gets out of hand part of their job is to shut this thread down. For the moderators, they give their position that if people keep going out of line, they will pull the plug, even if there has been good discourse, because not everyone could keep their cool.
While they are under the ZoS banner, they are not Game Designers, whose job it would be to put forward a stance about your given concern.
That would be fine if this was not something about cheating.
Coming here and saying nothing just make things worst for players. While the moderator can come and do his job, ZOS should provide solution and not hide behind their moderation team.2 -
Shardan4968✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_GinaBruno posted something yesterday in other thread, I wonder If she noticed this one with over 10k views...PC/EU0 -
Riejael✭✭✭✭✭In response to the ones directing ire at the Forum mods:
Damn did I ever call that lol.
Anyhoo.. back to topic.This is a shame that ZOS feels it is OK to intervene on such a thread and give no position.
Miat add-on (and others) are acting unfairly to gain an advantage over other PVP players: this is cheating ! Look it up if you need but stop the cheaters (ZOS, not you directly) and shut the whole thing down already.
This is not OK to come and pretend this is yet just another simple thread that needs to be moderated. We need a solution from ZOS.
I said earlier in the thread and in the first thread about this addon before Morrowind many months ago, that if they say nothing its because they decided to do nothing. I mean there was a patch cycle right before Morrowind where they said they would 'look into it' and 'make any changes' that 'they deemed necessary'.
IIRC there was some changes to the API's but not much. And despite the numerous threads on the subject they have decided to take no action. No action against anyone using the addon, creators of the addon, nor the API itself to combat or limit the effectiveness of the addon.
So the Mods have looked over this thread. They've taken action within the thread against those who have broken the rules. Apparently using and posting the addon is not against the rules. Deductive reasoning is what it is and all.
So the question is. Why ask for more answers when you've apparently gotten the answer? Is it because its not clear yet or you simply don't like the one given? Asking this of everyone, not just the one I quoted. Honest question too.
You all don't need to answer. Simply consider this. If it is the latter. Perhaps you all would be better served letting the issue drop. Keep playing as you have, adapt if you can, and if its not suitable to you for whatever personal, ethical, or moral issue you have with it. Then take the appropriate steps to deal with the situation.1 -
Perhaps if you all spent more time just playing the game than whining like spoilt schoolgirls on these forums, you’d have a better time in Tamriel.
People having varying opinions on tactics isn't "whining like spoilt schoolgirls". If you're really an adult like you claim, then you know that many sports and games change over the years, and people have always discussed it.
Maybe you should stop trying to puff yourself up at the expense of others. Grandstanding doesn't actually add anything to your point.Edited by central_scrutinizer on October 20, 2017 6:02AM3 -
Avnr✭✭✭crystal farg alert
do i have time for reflect?
yes - cheat
no - all good
now replace crystal frag for any income skill alert2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This is a shame that ZOS feels it is OK to intervene on such a thread and give no position.
Miat add-on (and others) are acting unfairly to gain an advantage over other PVP players: this is cheating ! Look it up if you need but stop the cheaters (ZOS, not you directly) and shut the whole thing down already.
This is not OK to come and pretend this is yet just another simple thread that needs to be moderated. We need a solution from ZOS.
I said earlier in the thread and in the first thread about this addon before Morrowind many months ago, that if they say nothing its because they decided to do nothing. I mean there was a patch cycle right before Morrowind where they said they would 'look into it' and 'make any changes' that 'they deemed necessary'.
IIRC there was some changes to the API's but not much. And despite the numerous threads on the subject they have decided to take no action. No action against anyone using the addon, creators of the addon, nor the API itself to combat or limit the effectiveness of the addon.
So the Mods have looked over this thread. They've taken action within the thread against those who have broken the rules. Apparently using and posting the addon is not against the rules. Deductive reasoning is what it is and all.
So the question is. Why ask for more answers when you've apparently gotten the answer? Is it because its not clear yet or you simply don't like the one given? Asking this of everyone, not just the one I quoted. Honest question too.
Again, you associate past inaction with future action when there's no correlation.
The last real answer we had on the topic says that the API should not function as it currently does:Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.
This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?
Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.
In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change
So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?
Thank you,
PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. CheersZOS_ChipHilseberg
I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.
Now what's the matter? Don't like what it says?You all don't need to answer. Simply consider this. If it is the latter. Perhaps you all would be better served letting the issue drop. Keep playing as you have, adapt if you can, and if its not suitable to you for whatever personal, ethical, or moral issue you have with it. Then take the appropriate steps to deal with the situation.
You know people are never going to let this issue drop. I'm not.
So why waste time telling people what they should do?
That only causes useless friction, just like this 3rd party plugin dictating people how they're allowed to play the game (or not play the game).Edited by DDuke on October 20, 2017 8:39AM5 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.
In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?
Can't a ganker using a wardrobe addon choose to change gear to match his opponent before a gank (ie slot sheildbreaker just before engaging a magsorc). So does that addon then give a direct advantage to the person/playstyle using it?
What about those that provide very big and obvious info close to the middle of your screen on 'key' buffs (as opposed to them being hidden amongst the multitude of other buffs).. like getting a big popup saying 'frag procced', or a nice big cooldown bar for rally to tell you when to use it to get the biggest effect, or stuff telling you when 7th legion has procced so you know when to burst etc.. Basically an addon telling you when to act (a bit like miats, no?)
Or even those non-combat addons.. those that give an advantage in trading. knowing price to buy/sell at and being able to find ridiculously low-priced items at far-flung guild vendors.. does that not make those who are actively using these, actively trading and in a large trading guild richer than those who aren't? "But that doesn't hurt anyone", I hear you say... well, it does - because as the 'market movers' all get richer, prices for desirable stuff goes up and up - cos (enough)people can afford it. Well I can't. I can't afford nice stuff because trading addons have resulted in prices pushing up so much.
And please don't reply with 'that one isn't cheating, that one is, that one isn't'.. That's not the point. The point is that is that the community cannot decide whether an addon is cheating or not because everyone will have different views and all we will see are those disagreements(arguments) coming out on the forums.
The only people who CAN decide are ZoS.
So if there are a number of addons (I'm sure there are a lot more) which give the user(and their preferred playstyle) an advantage over a non user, then should all addons be banned? Should they all be viewed as OK? or should the Devs be commenting on each?
Now are they realistically going to institute some kind of vetting process for addons? How would they control that? how can they stop unwanted addons? How can they even be aware of all addons since they can be made and used privately?
Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!
Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'
Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.
The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART
Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...
Edited by Biro123 on October 20, 2017 8:42AMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.3 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just stopping by to see that @DDuke is still going strong on this one and another 500 pages thread about this..,Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.3 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
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Ya I'm sure. Why couldn't they.
Of course they can fix the Api Lol. They just choose not to.silky_soft wrote: »Can miat make a addon to counter shields or perma block?
Can ZOS make an addon to counter Miat?
Actually, that's brilliant.
If their problem is that they can't fix the API because it'd affect some PvE addons that utilize same functions, then they could just allow a function through API that makes it so no one can access your combat information and get your cast timers visible.
You sure? lolWhen the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Just stopping by to see that @DDuke is still going strong on this one and another 500 pages thread about this..,
Yep. Whaddya know, some people still care about the game.
After all, I don't have another MMO to play until alpha 1 of Ashes.Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.
I wrote a response to your post, perhaps you missed it before the thread was closed.In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?
No, they dont. Trust me when I say that the list of addons that negatively affect other people by making their entire playstyles and what they enjoy in game unplayable isn't long.Can't a ganker using a wardrobe addon choose to change gear to match his opponent before a gank (ie slot sheildbreaker just before engaging a magsorc). So does that addon then give a direct advantage to the person/playstyle using it?
This is one of the few that fits the criteria, though the negative effect it has on the game and other people isn't even nearly as big.
Still, should you feel strong enough about it to create a thread I'd back you up because it does provide an advantage.
I actually just downloaded a functioning gear swapping addon that changes the gear instantly & reliably (not like Wykkyd's Outfitter which often bugged out & left you with incomplete sets etc). Gonna create macros for Shieldbreaker etc.
There hasn't been any communication from ZOS indicating that this wouldn't be API functioning as intended though, but they did "fix" Alchemist because of these gearswapping addons.What about those that provide very big and obvious info close to the middle of your screen on 'key' buffs (as opposed to them being hidden amongst the multitude of other buffs).. like getting a big popup saying 'frag procced', or a nice big cooldown bar for rally to tell you when to use it to get the biggest effect, or stuff telling you when 7th legion has procced so you know when to burst etc.. Basically an addon telling you when to act (a bit like miats, no?)
No, because these functions are also available via the game UI (just presented differently with addons). As in: they don't provide any information you wouldn't already have.
Some people even find the base game UI easier to interpret than what some addon does.
Not that good players would even need to look at buff durations because after playing for hundreds/thousands of hours they become rhythm.
Also, there's been no comment from ZOS that the API wouldn't function as intended here. Which is common sense, given that these UI mods exist in pretty much every MMORPG out there and are the industry standard.Or even those non-combat addons.. those that give an advantage in trading. knowing price to buy/sell at and being able to find ridiculously low-priced items at far-flung guild vendors.. does that not make those who are actively using these, actively trading and in a large trading guild richer than those who aren't? "But that doesn't hurt anyone", I hear you say... well, it does - because as the 'market movers' all get richer, prices for desirable stuff goes up and up - cos (enough)people can afford it. Well I can't. I can't afford nice stuff because trading addons have resulted in prices pushing up so much.
What advantage over others do you have thanks to these addons? It's a quality of life addon - if you don't use it then you can look prices up at tamrieltradecentre dot com.
What you purchase and at what price is your decision.
Again, nothing from ZOS about this not functioning as intended.
Here's a tip on how to get easy 500k+/week: do writs daily on 10 chars. I'm approaching 10M gold and honestly don't know what to do with it.And please don't reply with 'that one isn't cheating, that one is, that one isn't'.. That's not the point. The point is that is that the community cannot decide whether an addon is cheating or not because everyone will have different views and all we will see are those disagreements(arguments) coming out on the forums.
The only people who CAN decide are ZoS.
Yes, agreed. And as per the latest reply on the subject, what addons like Miat's do isn't intended by ZOS (you can read the quote above). Also common sense would tell you that.So if there are a number of addons (I'm sure there are a lot more) which give the user(and their preferred playstyle) an advantage over a non user, then should all addons be banned? Should they all be viewed as OK? or should the Devs be commenting on each?
Well, apparently almost half the player base would rather disable all addons in PvP than suffer from Miat's:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376334/would-you-like-add-ons-disabled-for-pvp/p1
Which is a shame, because there are a lot of awesome non-abusive addons out there - just one bad apple ruining the whole batch and poisoning peoples' opinions regarding addons.
I don't expect the devs to comment on every addon, just the ones that cause problems, especially when they've stated those shouldn't work as they currently do as per API.Now are they realistically going to institute some kind of vetting process for addons? How would they control that? how can they stop unwanted addons? How can they even be aware of all addons since they can be made and used privately?
There is no vetting for addons themselves (though that could be a solution as well), but there vetting for the functions allowed through the API which addons use.
It's just a matter of getting rid of functions that cause problems, or alternatively like I mentioned above providing functions that allow you to counter other functions (i.e. an addon that prevents other people from getting your cast timers).Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!
They'll have to sooner or later - I'd just prefer it's sooner, before the game dies off because of ones like Miat's.Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'
Well, I hate repeating myself but Sharpened Maces, Double Mundus etc... all were possible, all were "allowed". But were they "ok"? No, I wouldn't use that word. An exploit is an exploit - they need to get fixed before they do too much harm.Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.
The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART
Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...
Amen to that.1 -
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.
In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?
Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!
Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'
Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.
The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART
Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...
Many of your points about addons are fair and well worth discussing.Miats, though, is a bit different because it is clearly directed against ONE playstyle and ONE type of builds. If you play the same build/class as the creator of the addon, then youre fine, because the creator wanted it like that. He even said it himself in several previous posts, he DID NOT LIKE PARTICULAR PLAYSTYLES, and so decided to make them unplayable. Basically ALL bow builds are useless against a player using Miats. Think about it; ALL skills within one weapon class USELESS....Stealth builds are USELESS against a player using Miats. Thats a whole player class, with probably hundreds of hours and loads of gold spent into, useless. One man decides this. Not the developers. One man. He doesnt like being hit by ranged attacks, he said. One man. Not Zeni....
Last time I played ESO, Cyrodiil, there was this guy in my group who told me, after our keep was taken; "Lol, I see this NB preparing for a HA in a corner next to my corps. Even before said NB releases his attack, the target releases his sield, drops his healthbuff and dodges twice popping up next shield..." <
THIS is DESTROYING OBLITERATING RUINING *** UP or however you wanna pronounce it a class. Remove NB and stealth, or do something about it Zeni (but you didnt give a *** for years so why now. I bet you devs use Miats as well)
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Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.
In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?
Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!
Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'
Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.
The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART
Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...
Many of your points about addons are fair and well worth discussing.Miats, though, is a bit different because it is clearly directed against ONE playstyle and ONE type of builds. If you play the same build/class as the creator of the addon, then youre fine, because the creator wanted it like that. He even said it himself in several previous posts, he DID NOT LIKE PARTICULAR PLAYSTYLES, and so decided to make them unplayable. Basically ALL bow builds are useless against a player using Miats. Think about it; ALL skills within one weapon class USELESS....Stealth builds are USELESS against a player using Miats. Thats a whole player class, with probably hundreds of hours and loads of gold spent into, useless. One man decides this. Not the developers. One man. He doesnt like being hit by ranged attacks, he said. One man. Not Zeni....
Last time I played ESO, Cyrodiil, there was this guy in my group who told me, after our keep was taken; "Lol, I see this NB preparing for a HA in a corner next to my corps. Even before said NB releases his attack, the target releases his sield, drops his healthbuff and dodges twice popping up next shield..." <
THIS is DESTROYING OBLITERATING RUINING *** UP or however you wanna pronounce it a class. Remove NB and stealth, or do something about it Zeni (but you didnt give a *** for years so why now. I bet you devs use Miats as well)
This person gets it.1 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.
In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?
Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!
Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'
Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.
The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART
Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...
Many of your points about addons are fair and well worth discussing.Miats, though, is a bit different because it is clearly directed against ONE playstyle and ONE type of builds. If you play the same build/class as the creator of the addon, then youre fine, because the creator wanted it like that. He even said it himself in several previous posts, he DID NOT LIKE PARTICULAR PLAYSTYLES, and so decided to make them unplayable. Basically ALL bow builds are useless against a player using Miats. Think about it; ALL skills within one weapon class USELESS....Stealth builds are USELESS against a player using Miats. Thats a whole player class, with probably hundreds of hours and loads of gold spent into, useless. One man decides this. Not the developers. One man. He doesnt like being hit by ranged attacks, he said. One man. Not Zeni....
Last time I played ESO, Cyrodiil, there was this guy in my group who told me, after our keep was taken; "Lol, I see this NB preparing for a HA in a corner next to my corps. Even before said NB releases his attack, the target releases his sield, drops his healthbuff and dodges twice popping up next shield..." <
THIS is DESTROYING OBLITERATING RUINING *** UP or however you wanna pronounce it a class. Remove NB and stealth, or do something about it Zeni (but you didnt give a *** for years so why now. I bet you devs use Miats as well)
I both agree and disagree.. I mean there is a spectrum for addons in terms of how mauch of a gameplay advantage they give - and everyone who has a view on it will be at a different place in that spectrum. Agreed, Miats is quite far off to one end of said spectrum - there are probably other 'private' addons that are there too.
But its a bit arbitrary for a player to jump in at their spot on that spectrum and shout out 'everything to the left of here is cheating, everything to the right is ok'..
I'm not convinced on your view of the impact of Miat's to certain playstyles/classes.. I main a DW magsorc - with double-barred frags (for more procs) - making it almost a spammable. Aside from frags, and the execute, the only other non-ulti offensive ability on my bars is curse which can only be used every 4 seconds. No light or heavy attacks... so basically frags is my main damage ability - which miats royally screws up. I'm not a stealth ganker.
Also, I've noticed that there are people who can still gank me despite using miats.. I suspect they have figured out exactly what it does and doesn't alert to in advance.. I mean most ganks, I think start with either snipe or Ambush - which miats gives enough warning on. But some lately have started differently and been very successful.
Not sure if its to do with charging a heavy attack while looking away from the intended target and opening with that and incap (for the stun) or surprise attack then incap.. not really sure - but there is a way and it seems related to starting in melee range.
But regardless - my point isn't around discussing other addons individually - its around the wider question of addons as a whole and their impact as a whole - and whether its even feasible to discuss every addon individually?Edited by Biro123 on October 20, 2017 9:48AMMinalan owes me a beer.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.
In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?
Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!
Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'
Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.
The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART
Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...
Many of your points about addons are fair and well worth discussing.Miats, though, is a bit different because it is clearly directed against ONE playstyle and ONE type of builds. If you play the same build/class as the creator of the addon, then youre fine, because the creator wanted it like that. He even said it himself in several previous posts, he DID NOT LIKE PARTICULAR PLAYSTYLES, and so decided to make them unplayable. Basically ALL bow builds are useless against a player using Miats. Think about it; ALL skills within one weapon class USELESS....Stealth builds are USELESS against a player using Miats. Thats a whole player class, with probably hundreds of hours and loads of gold spent into, useless. One man decides this. Not the developers. One man. He doesnt like being hit by ranged attacks, he said. One man. Not Zeni....
Last time I played ESO, Cyrodiil, there was this guy in my group who told me, after our keep was taken; "Lol, I see this NB preparing for a HA in a corner next to my corps. Even before said NB releases his attack, the target releases his sield, drops his healthbuff and dodges twice popping up next shield..." <
THIS is DESTROYING OBLITERATING RUINING *** UP or however you wanna pronounce it a class. Remove NB and stealth, or do something about it Zeni (but you didnt give a *** for years so why now. I bet you devs use Miats as well)
I both agree and disagree.. I mean there is a spectrum for addons in terms of how mauch of a gameplay advantage they give - and everyone who has a view on it will be at a different place in that spectrum. Agreed, Miats is quite far off to one end of said spectrum - there are probably other 'private' addons that are there too.
But its a bit arbitrary for a player to jump in at their spot on that spectrum and shout out 'everything to the left of here is cheating, everything to the right is ok'..
I'm not convinced on your view of the impact of Miat's to certain playstyles/classes.. I main a DW magsorc - with double-barred frags (for more procs) - making it almost a spammable. Aside from frags, and the execute, the only other non-ulti offensive ability on my bars is curse which can only be used every 4 seconds. No light or heavy attacks... so basically frags is my main damage ability - which miats royally screws up. I'm not a stealth ganker.
No, you're barely affected by it as your frags are instant cast most of the time when used. If you want to compare your play experience to a Flare magplar or a bow build, try using Crystal Blast morph instead and see how it goes.
Side note: you know, if they buffed the damage of Crystal Blast to Dark Flare levels there could be some really cool sorc burst builds comboing them with overload light attacks (as you can land both at the same time I believe). Just a thought.Also, I've noticed that there are people who can still gank me despite using miats.. I suspect they have figured out exactly what it does and doesn't alert to in advance.. I mean most ganks, I think start with either snipe or Ambush - which miats gives enough warning on. But some lately have started differently and been very successful.
There is no viable gank build outside melee, which is why there has been no Bow focused builds (streams, videos, anything) since 2015.Not sure if its to do with charging a heavy attack while looking away from the intended target and opening with that and incap (for the stun) or surprise attack then incap.. not really sure - but there is a way and it seems related to starting in melee range.
Yep, melee (which are the strongest stealth builds) isn't affected by Miat's - notifications are not shown for melee heavy attacks from sneak (only ability cast timers/travel times are shown). It only screws up bow & other ranged builds.But regardless - my point isn't around discussing other addons individually - its around the wider question of addons as a whole and their impact as a whole - and whether its even feasible to discuss every addon individually?
Addressed this above.Edited by DDuke on October 20, 2017 9:58AM3 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭
It's funny you say this when nbs, in all it's forms, are currently hands down the strongest class. By quite a lot.killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »
THIS is DESTROYING OBLITERATING RUINING *** UP or however you wanna pronounce it a class. Remove NB and stealth, or do something about it Zeni (but you didnt give a *** for years so why now. I bet you devs use Miats as well)Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.
In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?
Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!
Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'
Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.
The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART
Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...
When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
No, you're barely affected by it as your frags are instant cast most of the time when used. If you want to compare your play experience to a Flare magplar or a bow build, try using Crystal Blast morph instead and see how it goes.
Side note: you know, if they buffed the damage of Crystal Blast to Dark Flare levels there could be some really cool sorc burst builds comboing them with overload light attacks (as you can land both at the same time I believe). Just a thought.
Barely affected? You're wrong. Go play DW magsorc first please. Yes, they are mostly instant - but the travel-time means plenty of time for a miats user to dodge. (and yes, I often intentionally time them to hit 'off-curse' to try to get those who see the curse, count to 3 then dodge).
I agree that it impacts cast-times more.. but you're wrong to say barely affected.
Never used the blast morph - but I'm pretty sure it won't land at the same time as overload. Overload is weird. It doesn't work like a light attack as it takes up a full skill cooldown - so you can't weave it.
Assuming blast has the same travel time as frags, it is impossible to land them both together. You could stun with a frag and then hit with an overload light attack while he's breaking free (assuming the frag hits...) or time a curse with it - but that's about it..
Minalan owes me a beer.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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No, you're barely affected by it as your frags are instant cast most of the time when used. If you want to compare your play experience to a Flare magplar or a bow build, try using Crystal Blast morph instead and see how it goes.
Side note: you know, if they buffed the damage of Crystal Blast to Dark Flare levels there could be some really cool sorc burst builds comboing them with overload light attacks (as you can land both at the same time I believe). Just a thought.
Barely affected? You're wrong. Go play DW magsorc first please. Yes, they are mostly instant - but the travel-time means plenty of time for a miats user to dodge. (and yes, I often intentionally time them to hit 'off-curse' to try to get those who see the curse, count to 3 then dodge).
I agree that it impacts cast-times more.. but you're wrong to say barely affected.
Sorry, wrong choice of words. I meant barely in comparison to builds using cast time abilities.Never used the blast morph - but I'm pretty sure it won't land at the same time as overload. Overload is weird. It doesn't work like a light attack as it takes up a full skill cooldown - so you can't weave it.
Assuming blast has the same travel time as frags, it is impossible to land them both together. You could stun with a frag and then hit with an overload light attack while he's breaking free (assuming the frag hits...) or time a curse with it - but that's about it..
Just tested that on Live, you can land them at the same time if you hardcast frags (as you circumvent the global cooldown that way).
You can almost land two overload light attacks at the same time as Frags/Blast if you move forward while throwing them out, as the 2nd light attack will have a shorter travel time.
The only problem besides Miat's is that Crystal Blast (or hardcast Frags) don't really do the kind of damage other cast time abilities deal.
I think they should buff the Blast morph to Dark Flare levels (or close to atleast), as you can't instant cast it.Edited by DDuke on October 20, 2017 10:49AM0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yeah, I know about the moving forward thing:-) Maybe I should try that with a major expedition source...?
honestly never tried it with hardcasting frags - will give it a go - its good to know this stuff, but I suspect the better overload combo is gonna be wrath/curse/empower, rune-prison, overload (but I'd need to test that more too). Its a proper glass-cannon setup that though. it crumbles while under pressure while on the overload bar.
I honestly think the rune-prison change and some of the more recent undodgeables have come as a result of Miat's ie. I kind of suspect that ZoS may actually be balancing with Miat's in mind.Minalan owes me a beer.
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randomkeyhits✭✭✭✭✭@Yiko
Unfortunately this discussion is being forced into a stall.
One 'side' claims something is cheating and spends their time demonizing other 'side' for defending of cheating. On pure moral grounds.
The other 'side' strongly considers that not a cheating and thus rationalize this point. Obviously if that other 'side' agreed that the addon was cheating it would stop defending its existence.
That's why there is zero moral disagreement. Both 'sides' agree that cheating has to be prevented. This is not the point of the conflict, since there exists full agreement on cheating.
The point is whether it's valid to label the addon as 'cheating' or not.
And until the first 'side' (the one that fights so hard against their illusionary 'cheating apologets') will see that the others are totally on their side - there won't be any productive discussion.
This state of things is quite unfortunate, but by now i don't see a way to reconcile the 'sides'. it's always hard to fight against prejudice, because people from that 'side' believe the other people are evil (stupid, bad, egoistic) and thus aren't capable of discussion.
tl;dr One group of people waste their time to justify that the addon has nothing to do with cheating, while the other group of people waste their time justifying that cheating has to be punished. This is a conversation of a deaf person with a blind one.
finally caught up on one of my favourite popcorn threads and this kinda stuck in my mind.
The problem is not this add-on per se but any add-ons at all in PvP.
For PvE pretty much anything that is a convenience is a good things.
The problem with PvP competitive add-ons is that once they exist then unless everyone has downloaded all the same add-ons you cannot have a level playing field. You should not have to go outside the delivered game to seek a fair and balanced PvP experience.
You cannot successfully balance sets because the presupposed conditions for those sets effectiveness may be skewed. Clever Alchemist comes to mind because of the gear hot swap add-ons. The developers cannot predict the innovative ways the players might apply the API and shouldn't have to even consider taking them into account when balancing gear.
Having said all that, some of the things created with the api really should be in the base game ( so available for consoles too ).
Personally I don't agree with what the add-on does because of the fairness thing I mention above but the reality is that this is all on or with the Dev team. I don't know about them but I'd hate my game to have the reputation of needing third party stuff simply to keep up.
EU PS40 -
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
It's funny you say this when nbs, in all it's forms, are currently hands down the strongest class. By quite a lot.killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »
THIS is DESTROYING OBLITERATING RUINING *** UP or however you wanna pronounce it a class. Remove NB and stealth, or do something about it Zeni (but you didnt give a *** for years so why now. I bet you devs use Miats as well)Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.
In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?
Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!
Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'
Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.
The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART
Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...
I think its time to clear up a bit what I meant; ranged stealth attacks. Not melee. Because mr. Miats wanted it that way. He hates ranged attacks from stealth and has on several occations explained his intentions was to eliminate it.Melee attacks, on the other hand, now THOSE are FINE, because he LIKES that playstyle....think about that for a second...Eliminate ranged attacks threat to himself. Thats kind of scary. One man nullifies Zenis intentions when they made class and ability mechanics. scissor/paper/stone. He decided scissior was op, cause hes paper, so solution; remove scissor from the game.
And NB's in all forms hands own the strongest class? You sound like stone to me tbh. Most nerf threads arent about NB's but HA and unkillable damage dealers. But that is a sidetopic. This is about one person and how he changed the meta of an MMOrpg pvp. I dont think theres been anyone ever managing to pull that off, without hacks and ***, but he did it, and Zeni doesnt understand it because they cant give a *** about pvp anyway, never did, never will. If he tried to pull this off in lets say GW2, old WAR or any game where pvp/wvw has its place, he would be kicked out of the game forever. Imagine this guy in GW2 "-I dont like stealth attacks so I will make an addon which effectively stops it/makes it obsolete...".Now theres been a lot of hefty topics in gw2 about that (stealth attacks, but believe me, this will NEVER happen there, without using illegal means to obtain that advantage. THis shows how much of a joke pvp in Cyrodiil is. Cyrodiil (and the laughable BG's) is the red haired stephson of this game, and the developers just dont get whats happening and why this is a problemEdited by killimandrosb16_ESO on October 20, 2017 11:27AM2 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »
It's funny you say this when nbs, in all it's forms, are currently hands down the strongest class. By quite a lot.killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »
THIS is DESTROYING OBLITERATING RUINING *** UP or however you wanna pronounce it a class. Remove NB and stealth, or do something about it Zeni (but you didnt give a *** for years so why now. I bet you devs use Miats as well)Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.
In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?
Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!
Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'
Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.
The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART
Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...
I think its time to clear up a bit what I meant; ranged stealth attacks. Not melee. Because mr. Miats wanted it that way. He hates ranged attacks from stealth and has on several occations explained his intentions was to eliminate it.Melee attacks, on the other hand, now THOSE are FINE, because he LIKES that playstyle....think about that for a second...Eliminate ranged attacks threat to himself. Thats kind of scary. One man nullifies Zenis intentions when they made class and ability mechanics. scissor/paper/stone. He decided scissior was op, cause hes paper, so solution; remove scissor from the game.
Lol. It’s starting to strike me that this Miat individual is like a fictional character named Zamasu. Zamasu did not like the way that humans were, so he went on ahead and decided to himself that he would eliminate any and all potential threats to him via annihilating the human race. Dude did this in multiple universes, after deciding it upon himself that humans do not deserve the right to exist. Completing ignoring the fact that it was Zen-oh who had created these universes. And ultimately has the last word on what does and does not exist in all planes of space and time. Plus everything in between.
Now let’s draw our connections, shall me? Miat doesn’t like ranged attacks or gankers. They decide 1 day that they will completely nullify ranged builds that are stealth oriented. Why? Because they simply don’t feel that the given play style deserves to exist anymore. So, he alone decides he will change PvP forever with his add-on, and does. Lol. Completely ignoring the fact it is not up to him whether or not a certain play style should be relative. But ZOS.
Hmm... I wonder now if and when Miat gets taken away (as it probably will), we will see a new type of add-on that completely renders another build and play style useless. Lol. Like a Miat’s 2.0. If so, can whoever is designing it name it “Zamasu’s Add-On”? That would be pretty dope.2 -
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »
It's funny you say this when nbs, in all it's forms, are currently hands down the strongest class. By quite a lot.killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »
THIS is DESTROYING OBLITERATING RUINING *** UP or however you wanna pronounce it a class. Remove NB and stealth, or do something about it Zeni (but you didnt give a *** for years so why now. I bet you devs use Miats as well)Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.
In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?
Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!
Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'
Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.
The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART
Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...
I think its time to clear up a bit what I meant; ranged stealth attacks. Not melee. Because mr. Miats wanted it that way. He hates ranged attacks from stealth and has on several occations explained his intentions was to eliminate it.Melee attacks, on the other hand, now THOSE are FINE, because he LIKES that playstyle....think about that for a second...Eliminate ranged attacks threat to himself. Thats kind of scary. One man nullifies Zenis intentions when they made class and ability mechanics. scissor/paper/stone. He decided scissior was op, cause hes paper, so solution; remove scissor from the game.
Lol. It’s starting to strike me that this Miat individual is like a fictional character named Zamasu. Zamasu did not like the way that humans were, so he went on ahead and decided to himself that he would eliminate any and all potential threats to him via annihilating the human race. Dude did this in multiple universes, after deciding it upon himself that humans do not deserve the right to exist. Completing ignoring the fact that it was Zen-oh who had created these universes. And ultimately has the last word on what does and does not exist in all planes of space and time. Plus everything in between.
Now let’s draw our connections, shall me? Miat doesn’t like ranged attacks or gankers. They decide 1 day that they will completely nullify ranged builds that are stealth oriented. Why? Because they simply don’t feel that the given play style deserves to exist anymore. So, he alone decides he will change PvP forever with his add-on, and does. Lol. Completely ignoring the fact it is not up to him whether or not a certain play style should be relative. But ZOS.
Hmm... I wonder now if and when Miat gets taken away (as it probably will), we will see a new type of add-on that completely renders another build and play style useless. Lol. Like a Miat’s 2.0. If so, can whoever is designing it name it “Zamasu’s Add-On”? That would be pretty dope.
You should go back in time reading up on how he defends himself. How he calmly and logically tries to convince the rest why ranged attacks should not be allowed within the game, and how he, the great and mighty one, did what Zenimax could not do due to their incompetence. He even demads reward and praise for his balance changes...He has a huge god complex, he believes he is innfailable and he believes he is entitled to dictate the way pvp should be according to his own rules. If he tried something like this in real life (maybe he has, for all I know), it would be something like this; I want a burger, burgers cost money, I dont have money, so I make money obsolete. From now on all must use sea shells as currency, as I live on a beach and it makes me rich..."3 -
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
Im dont entirely agree about no addons. The problem is apparently or actually quite obviously, addons in THIS game can be abused to a high degree. Addons I would not mind, are things like, autoqueue, scores and points, damage meters and healing meters, nemesis addons, addons showing bufftimers and dot timers and addons which marks the crown. Most if not all of these are already available (bar the statistic addons, which are entirely for personal use/amuse) and those addons simply make more convenient placing of numbers already being there for you. Miats shows you numbers who SHOULDNT be there for you to see until you are affected by it.Edited by killimandrosb16_ESO on October 20, 2017 11:39AM1
This discussion has been closed.