Wizards Riposte vs Combat Physician...

TheDoomsdayMonster

I have read much here on the Forums and heard a lot in game about how great Wizards Riposte is, but when I do the math (as well as compare its practical uses), it just seems to be inferior compared to Combat Physician...

Here is my case for the superiority of Combat Physician over Wizards Riposte (all the following numbers reflect that of a PvP environment):


Wizards Riposte applies a debuff to his/her attacker that reduces the attackers damage done by 15% for 15 seconds; Combat Physician potentially grants a 4100 point Damage Shield every 6 secs...

So, with the right build/loadout, I can reliably Proc the Combat Physician Damage Shield twice in the 15 sec span that Wizards Riposte has an opponent debuffed for a grand total of 8200 points of damage negated...

With Wizards Riposte, you'd have to sustain 54000 points of damage in that 15 second span just to equal the amount of damage that Combat Physician will negate in the same time span (54000 x .15 = 8100...so its not even truly equal)...

As you can see, from a standpoint of pure damage negation, Combat Physician will out perform Wizards Riposte in all but the most extreme circumstances, and those extreme circumstances will kill most players outright, so Wizards out performing Combat Physician in those situations doesn't matter....


Another reason why I think Combat Physician is superior (especially as pertains to playing a support role for your group) is its practical application compared to Wizards Riposte...

With Wizards Riposte, you must be subject to a Critical Attack from an enemy before the 15% debuff goes into effect; in other words, the player with Wizards must put his/her character in the line of fire just to benefit the team...

IMHO this is counterproductive as, ideally, you don't want the healer getting hit; you want everyone else getting hit and the healer healing those who are getting hit...

Combat Physician doesn't have this problem as you never have to be hit a single time to add support to your group, and if you keep your HoT's up, you'll consistently be giving out that 4.1k damage shield every 6 secs faithfully (which adds up to a theorectical maximum of 41000 points of damage negated per minute)...

With Wizards Riposte, a given attacker would have to Critically Attack the Healer and then deal 270,000 points of damage over the course of the next minute to the group just to equal what Combat Physician will negate in the same time span, and keep in mind that Combat Physician will negate that 41000 points of damage per minute regardless of the source of the damage (Wizards Riposte will only reduce the damage of a target that's been debuffed; keep in mind, as pertains to the above scenario, that the Wizards Riposte debuff would have to reapplied to the attacker 4 times in that 1 minute time span)...


Now one might reason that Wizards Riposte can debuff multiple attackers and ultimately negate more damage over time than Combat Physician as a result...

This is true, BUT keep in mind that the Healer would have to be Critically Attacked by each of the multiple attackers to debuff them; once again, this is counter productive and requires your Healer to basically be "jumped on" by all of the characters attacking your group (and this is pure suicide if you are facing a zerg)...

Now this just might work on a Heavy Armor wearing, constantly block-casting, Healbot (especially if there is another Healer healing the Healbot)...

But with Combat Physician, once I set up my HoT's, I am free to go on the offensive; the Healbot doesn't have this option if he/she is being Focus Fired upon...


Anyway, this is my analysis on why Combat Physician is superior to Wizards Riposte...

I look forward to any arguments that counter my line of reasoning...

Rianai

I already wrote something on that topic once, so i'll just quote myself:

Rianai wrote: »

So players have to get hit by more than 27,3k dmg in 6 seconds for Riposte to be better? If you look at multiple players, that's nothing. A single EotS castet on 5 players can deal 20k+ dmg per second (assuming 4k dmg per hit - which is quite low actually). 2 seconds and we are already at 40k+ dmg. 10 players getting hit by 2 EotS which isn't an unrealistic scenario and we are already at 80k+ dmg taken per second. In that situation, riposte can mitigate 12k dmg/s and more. Add more players, more dmg skills, more aoe and the dmg flying arround will be higher and higher - and therefore the efficiency of riposte will rise. Meanwhile CP is capped at a maximum of 4,1k per 6 seconds (683/s), which would be in my example ~5% of the mitigation that WR would provide.

Similar is true for Transmutation. It provides 20% crit dmg reduction. If we assume 50% critchance, that's roughly 10% dmg reduction (to keep math simple) for everyone arround with pretty much 100% uptime. Looking at my 10 player getting hit by 2 EotS example, that's about 8k mitigation/s. Again, any additional dmg will increase the efficiency of transmutation compared to CP. Because it scales with the number of players and dmg involved.

CP will only be better if we look at a singe player who takes sustained dmg over time. Which is pretty much irrelevant when looking at actual pvp.

TLTR;
Riposte scales with the numbers of players involved in a fight and it will be always up if the healer needs it, in case he gets ganked/focused. This doesn't apply to Combat Physician, therefore WR > CP in most actual PvP scenarios.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Rianai wrote: »

I already wrote something on that topic once, so i'll just quote myself:

show previous quotes

Rianai wrote: »

So players have to get hit by more than 27,3k dmg in 6 seconds for Riposte to be better? If you look at multiple players, that's nothing. A single EotS castet on 5 players can deal 20k+ dmg per second (assuming 4k dmg per hit - which is quite low actually). 2 seconds and we are already at 40k+ dmg. 10 players getting hit by 2 EotS which isn't an unrealistic scenario and we are already at 80k+ dmg taken per second. In that situation, riposte can mitigate 12k dmg/s and more. Add more players, more dmg skills, more aoe and the dmg flying arround will be higher and higher - and therefore the efficiency of riposte will rise. Meanwhile CP is capped at a maximum of 4,1k per 6 seconds (683/s), which would be in my example ~5% of the mitigation that WR would provide.

Similar is true for Transmutation. It provides 20% crit dmg reduction. If we assume 50% critchance, that's roughly 10% dmg reduction (to keep math simple) for everyone arround with pretty much 100% uptime. Looking at my 10 player getting hit by 2 EotS example, that's about 8k mitigation/s. Again, any additional dmg will increase the efficiency of transmutation compared to CP. Because it scales with the number of players and dmg involved.

CP will only be better if we look at a singe player who takes sustained dmg over time. Which is pretty much irrelevant when looking at actual pvp.

TLTR;
Riposte scales with the numbers of players involved in a fight and it will be always up if the healer needs it, in case he gets ganked/focused. This doesn't apply to Combat Physician, therefore WR > CP in most actual PvP scenarios.

Correction...

Wizards Riposte scales with the number of players who critically attack the healer...not the number of opponents in the fight...the distinction is very important.

Unless the Healer is getting focused upon (or is up front purposely getting hit), then the group isn't benefitting from Wizards one bit (and remember, the Healer has to take it until he is critically hit from every single attacker to properly benefit the group)...


And to touch back on what you posted before, that 27k figure assumes a single foe (NOT multiple foes) is attacking the healer and is dealing 27k damage in a 6 second span...

That is what has to occur for WR to equal Combat Physician's damage negation per 6 seconds (and the next 6 seconds Combat Physician will negate 4100 more damage, so in order for WR to keep pace as pertains to damage negation, 27k more damage must be sustained from that single attacker in the next 6 sec span)...


And having your healer intentionally take damage from EotS (until it crits no less!) is counterproductive...

But that's the sort of thing that has to happen for WR to be effective; you must take hits to benefit your team, so you gotta subject yourself to damage from as many sources as possible to get its full benefit...

Combat Physician has none of those issues; I can negate 41000 points of damage per minute without sustaining a single attack...


So I strongly disagree with you that WR will out perform Combat Physician in most actual PvP senario's...

Rianai

If you never get hit, then of course Riposte won't do anything. But that basically happens only in fights between unorganized zergs that are poking each other from range, allowing a healer to stay safe in the back. But in those situations it doesn't really matter what you run, as long your side has more players (or more siege) ... (and if your gear would matter, spc + trans would probably your best choice).

Keep in mind, that you have no contol over the CP proc, and it can and will be wasted on players, who don't need that shield. So when talking about those 41k dmg mitigation per minute without getting hit yourself, you are basically comparing a best case scenario for CP to a worst case scenario for WR.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Rianai wrote: »

If you never get hit, then of course Riposte won't do anything. But that basically happens only in fights between unorganized zergs that are poking each other from range, allowing a healer to stay safe in the back. But in those situations it doesn't really matter what you run, as long your side has more players (or more siege) ... (and if your gear would matter, spc + trans would probably your best choice).

Keep in mind, that you have no contol over the CP proc, and it can and will be wasted on players, who don't need that shield. So when talking about those 41k dmg mitigation per minute without getting hit yourself, you are basically comparing a best case scenario for CP to a worst case scenario for WR.

I'm glad you mentioned the bolded part; lets talk about that...


In order to recieve the damage shield you must:

1) Take damage from someone or something...
2) Recieve a crit heal from me...

In typical group v group fights (the size doesnt matter), if someone hits you once, they are going to hit you again, so if you get the damage shield, the odds are you needed it...



Lets talk about the idea behind the damage shield...

The idea is for it to allow you to recover from damage without taking more damage, so in that respect, if you get it...you needed it as it allows you to recover from damage more efficiently.


In short, the damage shield is rarely wasted...

Rianai

In a group vs group fight many people will take dmg. How do ensure that your shield procs on someone who is taking high dmg from lets say a bomber or sniper, instead of on someone who has some weak dot ticking on him, that would get outhealed anyway, regardless of your shield?

Taylor_MB

You are looking at Riposte in a 1v1 situation which is ridiculous. Riposte is amazing (and way better than Combat Physician) because it's a group utility set, it scales with numbers.

Wear it on a Magicka tank, effectively constant 15% damage reduction for your whole group, not even close to comparable with Combat Physician.

Also don't wear Combat Physician as a healer....

Berenhir

The only spec with any use for combat physician is a magsorc with surge.

Lexxypwns

Riposte is superior because it scales in a much more efficient manner. The only time CP out performs Riposte is against low pressure opponents. And yes, I've tested it.

Sorry, it's just math. I'm not telling you your build is bad because someone else is much more likely to run riposte than CP so you'll never overlap gear with other players

yodased

Also the shield doesn't stack it's one at a time, so you can potentially help 1 random person maybe vs reducing everyone's damage taken by 15%. C.p. isn't even a good healing set to be fair for the same reason, there is no rhyme or reason to the 1 and done random shield proc.

Waffennacht

Did you include the 50% Reduction to shields?

Combat physician will provide like a 2k shield (pretty worthless)

Riposte will reduce 15% damage against all players from the affected player.

CatchMeTrolling

Wizards is just much more flexible and has a high uptime, I honestly don't see why anyone would trade it out for a few shields that'll get easily bursted when they can potentially have a 100 percent uptime with wizards.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Rianai wrote: »

In a group vs group fight many people will take dmg. How do ensure that your shield procs on someone who is taking high dmg from lets say a bomber or sniper, instead of on someone who has some weak dot ticking on him, that would get outhealed anyway, regardless of your shield?

That will happen from time to time; I have no way of insuring it wont...

However even if the person recieving the shield isnt the optimal target, someone got it and that someone is having damage negated as a result...

Lexxypwns

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Wizards is just much more flexible and has a high uptime, I honestly don't see why anyone would trade it out for a few shields that'll get easily bursted when they can potentially have a 100 percent uptime with wizards.

The shield doesn't even prevent you from eating a massive crit and dying, since you can still register a crit and the overflow damage WILL crit the health pool, whereas the ~8-10% real mitigation most builds will see from riposte actually gives you MORE benefit the higher the incoming damage.

CP has a cap on effectiveness and its quite a bit too low to be viable in the same array of situations as riposte. In a very niche situation then CP is worth slotting but its not broad enough to justify losing the "aoe" maim.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Taylor_MB wrote: »

You are looking at Riposte in a 1v1 situation which is ridiculous. Riposte is amazing (and way better than Combat Physician) because it's a group utility set, it scales with numbers.

Wear it on a Magicka tank, effectively constant 15% damage reduction for your whole group, not even close to comparable with Combat Physician.

Also don't wear Combat Physician as a healer....

I see you havent been reading as I've done far more than look at it in just a 1v1 situation; get up to speed (ie...read whats been written here) then we can talk...

Now I will admit that I've never considered Riposte for a tank; that is an amazing idea...two thumbs up as concerns that!

I ferociously disagree with you about a healer not wearing Combat Physician; I wear it and its amazing...one of the best Defensive Light Armor sets in the game as far as I can see.

TheDoomsdayMonster

yodased wrote: »

Also the shield doesn't stack it's one at a time, so you can potentially help 1 random person maybe vs reducing everyone's damage taken by 15%. C.p. isn't even a good healing set to be fair for the same reason, there is no rhyme or reason to the 1 and done random shield proc.

Yeah...

1 person at a time every 6 seconds with 0 risk to my character (Combat Physician) vs reducing everyones damage to whoever hit me, but with the clause of having to get in the line of fire to debuff my attacker (Riposte)...

Its not as clear cut as you think...

Lexxypwns

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

show previous quotes

yodased wrote: »

Also the shield doesn't stack it's one at a time, so you can potentially help 1 random person maybe vs reducing everyone's damage taken by 15%. C.p. isn't even a good healing set to be fair for the same reason, there is no rhyme or reason to the 1 and done random shield proc.

Yeah...

1 person at a time every 6 seconds with 0 risk to my character (Combat Physician) vs reducing everyones damage to whoever hit me, but with the clause of having to get in the line of fire to debuff my attacker (Riposte)...

Its not as clear cut as you think...

You actually can slot Riposte on the off bar for MOST damage oriented magika specs as well, without compromising sustain or damage, another thing making it superior.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Waffennacht wrote: »

Did you include the 50% Reduction to shields?

Combat physician will provide like a 2k shield (pretty worthless)

Riposte will reduce 15% damage against all players from the affected player.

If you read the OP (which its clear now that you did not), you'd notice that I said "all the following numbers reflect that of a PvP environment."

So your numbers are wrong...

In a PvE environment its an 8k damage shield and in PvP its a 4k damage shield (4.1k to be exact)...

And you seem to gloss over the fundamental flaw with Riposte; your Healer has to be attacked for the group to benefit; if there are multiple attackers ALL of them must not only attack your healer, but Critically Attack him for your group to benefit...

IMHO that is fundamentally a bad idea...

TheDoomsdayMonster

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Riposte is superior because it scales in a much more efficient manner. The only time CP out performs Riposte is against low pressure opponents. And yes, I've tested it.

Sorry, it's just math. I'm not telling you your build is bad because someone else is much more likely to run riposte than CP so you'll never overlap gear with other players

I disagree with you on the scaling and efficiency...

As I stated above, even in a single attacker senario, you'd have to sustain over 27k damage every 6 seconds with Riposte just to equal what Combat Physician will negate in an equal amount of time...

Please tell me how you figure Riposte is better as a result...

Waffennacht

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

show previous quotes

Waffennacht wrote: »

Did you include the 50% Reduction to shields?

Combat physician will provide like a 2k shield (pretty worthless)

Riposte will reduce 15% damage against all players from the affected player.

If you read the OP (which its clear now that you did not), you'd notice that I said "all the following numbers reflect that of a PvP environment."

So your numbers are wrong...

In a PvE environment its an 8k damage shield and in PvP its a 4k damage shield (4.1k to be exact)...

And you seem to gloss over the fundamental flaw with Riposte; your Healer has to be attacked for the group to benefit; if there are multiple attackers ALL of them must not only attack your healer, but Critically Attack him for your group to benefit...

IMHO that is fundamentally a bad idea...

It provides an 8k shield... I thought it was 4k... My info was out of date

Edit: also, if you're a healer and not being hit, your group should win no matter what sets u run lol

TheDoomsdayMonster

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Wizards is just much more flexible and has a high uptime, I honestly don't see why anyone would trade it out for a few shields that'll get easily bursted when they can potentially have a 100 percent uptime with wizards.

Now I agree that Riposte does have a higher single application uptime, but Combat Physician refreshes faster...

As to why someone would choose Combat Physician over Riposte, read the OP; read the numbers and it'll become very clear why...

And once again, having uptime on Riposte means your healer is getting hit (and not only hit, but Critically Attacked); thats not something you should encourage just to benefit the group...

Flowersquisher

Keep in mind, your opponent is going to say "focus healer first", so as soon as you are noticed healing your team you are going to get rekt. CP in all but niche situations is not a good set to be relying on, even transmutation would be better.

Waffennacht

Flowersquisher wrote: »

Keep in mind, your opponent is going to say "focus healer first", so as soon as you are noticed healing your team you are going to get rekt. CP in all but niche situations is not a good set to be relying on, even transmutation would be better.

Agreed, if you're a healer and not being targeted, your team should win

TheDoomsdayMonster

Lexxypwns wrote: »

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CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Wizards is just much more flexible and has a high uptime, I honestly don't see why anyone would trade it out for a few shields that'll get easily bursted when they can potentially have a 100 percent uptime with wizards.

The shield doesn't even prevent you from eating a massive crit and dying, since you can still register a crit and the overflow damage WILL crit the health pool, whereas the ~8-10% real mitigation most builds will see from riposte actually gives you MORE benefit the higher the incoming damage.

CP has a cap on effectiveness and its quite a bit too low to be viable in the same array of situations as riposte. In a very niche situation then CP is worth slotting but its not broad enough to justify losing the "aoe" maim.

Wrong...

Lets do some math and test what you say about Riposte:

15% damage negation on Riposte...

100 point attack goes down to 85 (15 point damage savings)
1000 point attack goes down to 850 (150 point damage savings)
10000 point attack goes down to 8500 (1500 point damage savings)
20000 point attack goes down to 17000 (3000 point damage savings)


Now with that in mind, the Combat Physician Damage Shield will negate 4100 damage all at once; let that sink in for a moment...

The Combat Physician Damage Shield will do a better job of protecting you from a 20000 point attack than Riposte will and its not even close...


So once again, I strongly disagree with you about Combat Physician not being as viable as Riposte, and the numbers support my position on this...

CatchMeTrolling

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

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CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Wizards is just much more flexible and has a high uptime, I honestly don't see why anyone would trade it out for a few shields that'll get easily bursted when they can potentially have a 100 percent uptime with wizards.

Now I agree that Riposte does have a higher single application uptime, but Combat Physician refreshes faster...

As to why someone would choose Combat Physician over Riposte, read the OP; read the numbers and it'll become very clear why...

And once again, having uptime on Riposte means your healer is getting hit (and not only hit, but Critically Attacked); thats not something you should encourage just to benefit the group...

Here's the thing about healers in pvp, most are tanky by default so if you're in an organized group it isn't that simple to just focus the healer because you'll be protected by your group. In even scenarios the group with the healer comes out on top most of the time.

CatchMeTrolling

Lexxypwns wrote: »

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CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Wizards is just much more flexible and has a high uptime, I honestly don't see why anyone would trade it out for a few shields that'll get easily bursted when they can potentially have a 100 percent uptime with wizards.

The shield doesn't even prevent you from eating a massive crit and dying, since you can still register a crit and the overflow damage WILL crit the health pool, whereas the ~8-10% real mitigation most builds will see from riposte actually gives you MORE benefit the higher the incoming damage.

CP has a cap on effectiveness and its quite a bit too low to be viable in the same array of situations as riposte. In a very niche situation then CP is worth slotting but its not broad enough to justify losing the "aoe" maim.

Yeah I just feel like the set is too good in a multitude of scenarios and with multiple builds. You can go support, healer or dps with wizards, I for one wouldn't even consider CP as a healer.

TheDoomsdayMonster

Flowersquisher wrote: »

Keep in mind, your opponent is going to say "focus healer first", so as soon as you are noticed healing your team you are going to get rekt. CP in all but niche situations is not a good set to be relying on, even transmutation would be better.

Well we agree to disagree, and there have been many times I've been focused fired upon and survived btw...

TheDoomsdayMonster

Waffennacht wrote: »

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Flowersquisher wrote: »

Keep in mind, your opponent is going to say "focus healer first", so as soon as you are noticed healing your team you are going to get rekt. CP in all but niche situations is not a good set to be relying on, even transmutation would be better.

Agreed, if you're a healer and not being targeted, your team should win

In that senario, Combat Physician will outperform Wizards Riposte as well...

And my team will win very efficiently as the Damage Sheild will be negating 4.1k damage every 6 secs...

Flowersquisher

You are definitely hell bent on using CP, and that's great, each to there own.That said, on paper CP looks ok at best, but in reality (yes i have tried it) it is a weak set for a pvp healer. I'm not going to say WR is better, but CP IS a weak healer set. For light armor sets in PVP, transmutation, mending , sanctuary are all going to outperform a randomly place weak damage shield. But if you feel it works for you and your group is happy having you heal them with CP, go for it.

TheDoomsdayMonster

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

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Lexxypwns wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Wizards is just much more flexible and has a high uptime, I honestly don't see why anyone would trade it out for a few shields that'll get easily bursted when they can potentially have a 100 percent uptime with wizards.

The shield doesn't even prevent you from eating a massive crit and dying, since you can still register a crit and the overflow damage WILL crit the health pool, whereas the ~8-10% real mitigation most builds will see from riposte actually gives you MORE benefit the higher the incoming damage.

CP has a cap on effectiveness and its quite a bit too low to be viable in the same array of situations as riposte. In a very niche situation then CP is worth slotting but its not broad enough to justify losing the "aoe" maim.

Yeah I just feel like the set is too good in a multitude of scenarios and with multiple builds. You can go support, healer or dps with wizards, I for one wouldn't even consider CP as a healer.

You might not consider Combat Physician, but I have, and use it for all content; its much better than many of you believe...

Read the link in my signature; I do dps, support, and heal...and its all done with the Combat Physician gear set.

Flowersquisher

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

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Flowersquisher wrote: »

Keep in mind, your opponent is going to say "focus healer first", so as soon as you are noticed healing your team you are going to get rekt. CP in all but niche situations is not a good set to be relying on, even transmutation would be better.

Well we agree to disagree, and there have been many times I've been focused fired upon and survived btw...

Maybe so, but you didn't survive because of CP, lets be honest here, IF it procs on you while being focused, that shield isn't what is going to save you