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Crystal Frags nerf?! No stun

  • PathwayM
    PathwayM
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    I main a magicka sorc, and this might trigger some people, but I don't think this change matters that much in the grand scheme of things. The cc from frags was already unreliable because we all know that there are often times when frags just throws a hissy fit and refuses to proc. This has often lead to many sorcs using other sources for primary stuns (streak/ dawnbreaker) that are reliable to cc the opponent before dumping a frag in their face. This is actually now even easier with the addition of rune prison.

    Personally, if the stun was a knockback instead it probably would have been more useful. But meh I am doubtful losing the cc on frags will be game-breaking for good magicka sorcs in the long run.

    It's also worth noting that 2/5 classes have skills that absorb frags and ignore the cc from it, one-handed + shield ulti shuts it down entirely, and most people know how to block... so... : /
    Edited by PathwayM on October 2, 2017 8:20PM
  • lucky_Sage
    lucky_Sage
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    Maulkin wrote: »
    lucky_Sage wrote: »
    Maulkin wrote: »
    lucky_Sage wrote: »
    Maulkin wrote: »
    lucky_Sage wrote: »
    I got a legit question how often does frags even cc in pvp.i play a dw magdk so my block isn't up the whole fight but I almost never got stunned by frags they either cc me with streak or some else does it for them. frag cc may stun me ounce every 15 sorcs and it normal done by that random hard casting frag sorc that I don't pay attention to.

    when I was playing my sorc I never relied on frag cc I used streak.

    Many uses really.

    You can CC players from further away than Streak which means you can help a friend who is trouble by CCing their attacker or stopping someone getting to a scroll/relic/chaosball etc.

    Also defensively, if I'm being chased and frags proc I can turn around, throw the frag and keep traveling away from my attacker rather than towards him.

    Finally Streak has an increasing cost so if I've already used Streak and it was blocked I can use the Frags instead for CC and not have to wait for the Streak cool down to expire.

    so for you its not dodged by shuffle or block most of the time

    Sometimes it is, most of the times not. If it was always dodged or blocked no-one would run the skill, would they?

    well I can see how its a nerf but its not as bad as petrify into melee range

    I don't disagree with that, but they are both stupid changes imo.

    Wrobel: "I buffed Crystal Blast so it's more of a dilemma which to pick. Oh, so you still say blast is crap? I'll nerf Frags then"

    later on...

    Wrobel: "I buffed Petrify so it doesn't break on damage. Oh so people complain it's too strong now? Okay, I'll nerf it and make it worse than it was before I touched it"

    Whenever he looks at skills, this man [snip] them up. How he is still in charge of combat and abilities is beyond me.
    I agree maybe give both frag morphs a proc but would need testing
    but he nerfed petrify because we where complaining that that stone first was to weak and needed a rework of spell so there isn't a weak petrify basically

    I don't want any class or spell to be nerfed to crap to make other seem strong.
    biggest problem with sorc is that they can out sustain a dk and has more burst mobility and execute but dk the sustain class has worst sustain

    [Edited to remove profanity masking]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on November 5, 2017 8:56PM
    DC PC NA
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    AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
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  • xiZeroPointix
    xiZeroPointix
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    Its not happening as of yet. Read new patch notes
  • DeHei
    DeHei
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    HoloYoitsu wrote: »
    DeHei wrote: »
    You sorcs will also have enough CC and damage! So why this change is a big problem for you. Its not a nerf from a class to ground...
    This is just 1 nerf for a class, where the majority of player show, that they cant handle just 1 nerf! Shame on you guys. Maybe you should player weaker classes to know, that sorcs have abilities for nearly every situation. Just learn to play with it!
    Can't handle one nerf? That's a pretty specious line to tout in a game where every class and pretty much every gameplay mechanic has been nerfed multiple times. Even if we look just at Frags, it was already nerfed in Morrowind.

    I can play that game to:
    Fossilize nerf: "You DKs will also have enough CC and damage! So why this change is a big problem for you."
    Shards nerf: "You Templars will also have enough CC and damage! So why this change is a big problem for you."

    Hm that's weird, even though I just said that those changes are still dumb, how can that be?

    nope. The difference is, that templar dont have unblockable hard CC and just 2 options for a single target stun. Nothing else. One stun is on meleerange and the other has a short duration.
    Templar dont have an escape or other things to compare nearly no CC... Same for DKs, they have no gapcloser, an escape and no finisher... Sorcs hall all these thinks in classskills and really no bad ones..

    I can understand, that every sorc think about this change: "that sux.."
    Nobody like nerfs for there mainclass. But sorcs have a lot of options for hard CC and so i cant understand this words:" Sorcs are nerfed to ground"
    Its simply not true. My statement just was for this guys and not for all other, who are just angry about! So relax ;)
    Edited by DeHei on October 3, 2017 8:41AM
    DeHei - EP Magicka Templar Allrounder
    De Hei(Youtube)
  • Zedrian
    Zedrian
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    I don't care for the Crystal Frags CC change, but I hope they will up its damage or reduce the cost of magicka even more, or better even provide some kind of Magicka sustain/return like the change they just made for the Executioner Passive on Nightblades. Frags return health and not magicka which is useless in PvE.

    And I will NOT use Crystal Blast because it is a slow channel skill that would make an even slower pace rotation in combination with a heavy attack build...
  • krathos
    krathos
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    You do realize sorcs just got an instant cast, no travel time, 28m, unblockable, undodgeable, stun, right? This is going to be far mor useful than the frag cc.
    Flapjack Palmdale
    <ANIMOSITY>

    Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight
  • DeHei
    DeHei
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    CyrusArya wrote: »
    krathos wrote: »
    You do realize sorcs just got an instant cast, no travel time, 28m, unblockable, undodgeable, stun, right? This is going to be far mor useful than the frag cc.

    I don't think it will be, because of of the fact that it requires you to sacrifice a skill slot whereas before you did not. Sorc is already tight on bar space. Furthermore, the real value of frag is being able to deliver a stun with the burst and then follow up with 1 cooldown of damage. Its kind of essential on a class with no damage over time effects or class spammable. Sorc relies entirely on lining up the burst to secure kills.

    Either way I think the class will be fine and I'm sure decent sorcs will adapt. But this change is being downplayed far too much by people who don't understand sorc too well. Its a major nerf to the skill.

    Then maybe use just 2 or 1 shield instead of 3... Other classes have same problems ;)
    DeHei - EP Magicka Templar Allrounder
    De Hei(Youtube)
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    DeHei wrote: »
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    krathos wrote: »
    You do realize sorcs just got an instant cast, no travel time, 28m, unblockable, undodgeable, stun, right? This is going to be far mor useful than the frag cc.

    I don't think it will be, because of of the fact that it requires you to sacrifice a skill slot whereas before you did not. Sorc is already tight on bar space. Furthermore, the real value of frag is being able to deliver a stun with the burst and then follow up with 1 cooldown of damage. Its kind of essential on a class with no damage over time effects or class spammable. Sorc relies entirely on lining up the burst to secure kills.

    Either way I think the class will be fine and I'm sure decent sorcs will adapt. But this change is being downplayed far too much by people who don't understand sorc too well. Its a major nerf to the skill.

    Then maybe use just 2 or 1 shield instead of 3... Other classes have same problems ;)

    You do realise that the skill is very similar now right. And yet sorcs still dont use it.

    Other classes also have more defensive mechanics to utilize. Sorcs dont. Shields are your defense. Even the only burst heal in sorc toolkit relies on shields to stay alive. Im all up for removing shieldstacking. But you'd also have to remove the cost increase of streak and reduce the cost of mines.

    Funny thing is that no sorc asked for rune cage buff, and they still wouldnt use it after it got buffed apart from some niche duel situations and those that would use it in open world would still pick the defensive morph. So all that rage about it was prety much for nothing. Well gz, keep defending frag nerf now but dont complain when u get rune caged.
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Maulkin wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    @HoloYoitsu dizzying swing can be cancelled by moving through the player or far enough away from them. Dizzying swing is not instant and it is just as easily dodgeable as frags. I don’t give a crap about dizzying swing, frags in general hits harder and is far more annoying to deal with.

    Not to mention someone using dizzying swing usually doesn't have a curse and a wrath running on you that will finish you off as soon as the swing connects.

    No, but he very likely has a Dragon Leap and an Executioner that will do very much the same.

    So what, you’re saying that normal sorc skills should have the burst potential of the stam DK ultimate and that’s ok? This right here is why sorcs are in fact too powerful and don’t even realize it. If you’re ok equating your normal skills with the ultimiates of other classes something is very wrong. Leap is one of the stronger single target ults too. Having to make sure your ult is up for your burst is not the same as lining up a few skills.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    Maulkin wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Vapirko wrote: »
    @HoloYoitsu dizzying swing can be cancelled by moving through the player or far enough away from them. Dizzying swing is not instant and it is just as easily dodgeable as frags. I don’t give a crap about dizzying swing, frags in general hits harder and is far more annoying to deal with.

    Not to mention someone using dizzying swing usually doesn't have a curse and a wrath running on you that will finish you off as soon as the swing connects.

    No, but he very likely has a Dragon Leap and an Executioner that will do very much the same.

    So what, you’re saying that normal sorc skills should have the burst potential of the stam DK ultimate and that’s ok? This right here is why sorcs are in fact too powerful and don’t even realize it. If you’re ok equating your normal skills with the ultimiates of other classes something is very wrong. Leap is one of the stronger single target ults too. Having to make sure your ult is up for your burst is not the same as lining up a few skills.

    Assassins will hits even harder. I actually think it hits harder than any ult in the game with the exception of the bear. But those are not "normal" skills. You need to proc them and they have a lot of counters. And it is quite normal for a class that is designed around burst to have such a high burst potential. It is how the class is designed after all. They have burst, they lack sustained dmg. Whats so wrong with that?
  • HoloYoitsu
    HoloYoitsu
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    krathos wrote: »
    You do realize sorcs just got an instant cast, no travel time, 28m, unblockable, undodgeable, stun, right? This is going to be far mor useful than the frag cc.
    Rune cage does have a slight "travel time" between when it's cast and when the CC actually happens. You're thinking it's as instantaneous as Fossilize, which is fair enough because the tootips are mirrored - it just doesn't function as seamlessly in game though.

    And as far as 'just got', not really; it's been like that for years ever since the cast time was removed. It's just that now it will actually be functional in groups rather than just 1v1.
    Cyrodiil (the PvP map) is open-world and supports up to 2000 players in it at the same time. ESO’s client is designed to be able to handle (on the recommended spec) 200 players on screen at the same time.
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
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    I agree that magicka sorcs need to be tuned down slightly, but not on the offensive end. Their burst is in a good place on live right now. Anything I can burst down on my sorc I can burst down just as quickly on my stamblade. Against a target dummy, it is a lot easier to set up Msorc burst than on a stamblade. On the other hand, it is a lot easier to predict and therefore counter sorc burst than it is to counter stamblade burst. See how one burst is strong in the aspect that the other is weak in? Ya thats called balanced diversity. (I am only comparing burst here to iterate that sorc burst is not the issue)

    Taking the stun away from Frags affects sorc's burst the most, out of all their other strenghts affected by this change.

    What sorcs are really too strong in right now is shield stacking. Sorc defence is what should be targeted first, not its offence. We all know shields are getting a nerf hammer so it makes no sense to nerf frags before the necessary nerfs go in.

    Is this change game breaking?
    No. But it is a nuisance, especially for solo/small scale sorcs.

    On a side note. ZoS is killing solo/small scale play. Not everybody enjoys spamming heals while stacked on Crown OK.

    If this change does go through, which I hope it doesn't, streaks cost increase should be taken off as many will rely on streak as their cc, forcing Magicka sorcs into mid-range combat. This would mean that mobility and their ability to reposition becomes their new strength over ranged burst.

    ---Oh and for all those sorc haters happy frag got nerfed simply because its a sorc nerf---

    Food for thought:
    Would you rather have sorc cc tied to a telegraphed, slow moving dodgeable/blockable projectile or have it tied to an undodgeable/unblockable instantaneous ranged cc that perfectly sets up their burst?

    Because thats what this nerf is, the "balance" for Rune Prison becoming sorc primary CC. Pick your poison 7 pc divine medium night blades. Pick your poison.
  • GrigorijMalahevich
    GrigorijMalahevich
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    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I agree that magicka sorcs need to be tuned down slightly, but not on the offensive end. Their burst is in a good place on live right now. Anything I can burst down on my sorc I can burst down just as quickly on my stamblade. Against a target dummy, it is a lot easier to set up Msorc burst than on a stamblade. On the other hand, it is a lot easier to predict and therefore counter sorc burst than it is to counter stamblade burst. See how one burst is strong in the aspect that the other is weak in? Ya thats called balanced diversity. (I am only comparing burst here to iterate that sorc burst is not the issue)

    Taking the stun away from Frags affects sorc's burst the most, out of all their other strenghts affected by this change.

    What sorcs are really too strong in right now is shield stacking. Sorc defence is what should be targeted first, not its offence. We all know shields are getting a nerf hammer so it makes no sense to nerf frags before the necessary nerfs go in.

    Is this change game breaking?
    No. But it is a nuisance, especially for solo/small scale sorcs.

    On a side note. ZoS is killing solo/small scale play. Not everybody enjoys spamming heals while stacked on Crown OK.

    If this change does go through, which I hope it doesn't, streaks cost increase should be taken off as many will rely on streak as their cc, forcing Magicka sorcs into mid-range combat. This would mean that mobility and their ability to reposition becomes their new strength over ranged burst.

    ---Oh and for all those sorc haters happy frag got nerfed simply because its a sorc nerf---

    Food for thought:
    Would you rather have sorc cc tied to a telegraphed, slow moving dodgeable/blockable projectile or have it tied to an undodgeable/unblockable instantaneous ranged cc that perfectly sets up their burst?

    Because thats what this nerf is, the "balance" for Rune Prison becoming sorc primary CC. Pick your poison 7 pc divine medium night blades. Pick your poison.

    Yes, +1 for to you brother.

    The only problem for solo pvp - defensive rune is a must for solo play, otherwise you get ganked by everything...

    Now for solo play to properly burst, one needs to take rune prison and sacrifice massively defence which, as you pointed out, is bad for small scale...

    Some people pointed out - that now you can spam proced frags left, right and center, but most players when engaging magsorc in melee range - pay close attention to that proc. Now, nobody will be _that_ afraid to engage sorcs...

    Streak must be fixed and cost increase reworked to compensate...

    I don't use mines as they feel OP against melee, but without frag CC there is no other option... I don't see myself running rune cage - that is just silly.
    PC/EU 800 CP.
    PvP MagSorc.
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  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    IAVITNI wrote: »

    Food for thought:
    Would you rather have sorc cc tied to a telegraphed, slow moving dodgeable/blockable projectile or have it tied to an undodgeable/unblockable instantaneous ranged cc that perfectly sets up their burst?

    Because thats what this nerf is, the "balance" for Rune Prison becoming sorc primary CC. Pick your poison 7 pc divine medium night blades. Pick your poison.

    Double DoT poison. Duh, dummy.

    5k0uzbabgued.png
    EU | PC | AD
  • DeHei
    DeHei
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    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I agree that magicka sorcs need to be tuned down slightly, but not on the offensive end. Their burst is in a good place on live right now. Anything I can burst down on my sorc I can burst down just as quickly on my stamblade. Against a target dummy, it is a lot easier to set up Msorc burst than on a stamblade. On the other hand, it is a lot easier to predict and therefore counter sorc burst than it is to counter stamblade burst. See how one burst is strong in the aspect that the other is weak in? Ya thats called balanced diversity. (I am only comparing burst here to iterate that sorc burst is not the issue)

    Taking the stun away from Frags affects sorc's burst the most, out of all their other strenghts affected by this change.

    What sorcs are really too strong in right now is shield stacking. Sorc defence is what should be targeted first, not its offence. We all know shields are getting a nerf hammer so it makes no sense to nerf frags before the necessary nerfs go in.

    Is this change game breaking?
    No. But it is a nuisance, especially for solo/small scale sorcs.

    On a side note. ZoS is killing solo/small scale play. Not everybody enjoys spamming heals while stacked on Crown OK.

    If this change does go through, which I hope it doesn't, streaks cost increase should be taken off as many will rely on streak as their cc, forcing Magicka sorcs into mid-range combat. This would mean that mobility and their ability to reposition becomes their new strength over ranged burst.

    ---Oh and for all those sorc haters happy frag got nerfed simply because its a sorc nerf---

    Food for thought:
    Would you rather have sorc cc tied to a telegraphed, slow moving dodgeable/blockable projectile or have it tied to an undodgeable/unblockable instantaneous ranged cc that perfectly sets up their burst?

    Because thats what this nerf is, the "balance" for Rune Prison becoming sorc primary CC. Pick your poison 7 pc divine medium night blades. Pick your poison.

    Yeah right just this 2 classes can bring there burst very efficient... Warden can use a very good combination too, but that class isnt balanced like sorcs or nightblades.. so all other have trouble to make a good burstcombo in PvP.
    Reasons for that are for example the better classskills for these classes. For example compare this finisher from sorcs with everything else, for example with templar. Sorcs can cast them instant and switch directly to other skills. templar need to stay some while they channel there finisher. Templar need to wait for right moment to bring this skill and they cant do anything else then. Sorcs just need to make pressure and when the target is low, its a granted kill. Wtf?
    Nightblades can make more pressure then every other class, true.
    But offensiv these 2 classes work better in PvP then every other.. so why not give that a balance? I would like for a buff for the other 3 classes, but they would just nerfed more and more... nobody is hoping for that anymore..

    btw. shields and all other defensive abilities are allready really expensive, a nerf of defense wouldnt be a great nerf. You need to bring your opponent under pressure to win a fight. When sorcs and nightblades wouldnt have these great offensiv rotations, they would need to use more defensive abilities to stay alive, because other could make more pressure to them!
    Offensive > Defensive!!!!
    DeHei - EP Magicka Templar Allrounder
    De Hei(Youtube)
  • krathos
    krathos
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    CyrusArya wrote: »
    krathos wrote: »
    You do realize sorcs just got an instant cast, no travel time, 28m, unblockable, undodgeable, stun, right? This is going to be far mor useful than the frag cc.

    I don't think it will be, because of of the fact that it requires you to sacrifice a skill slot whereas before you did not. Sorc is already tight on bar space. Furthermore, the real value of frag is being able to deliver a stun with the burst and then follow up with 1 cooldown of damage. Its kind of essential on a class with no damage over time effects or class spammable. Sorc relies entirely on lining up the burst to secure kills.

    Either way I think the class will be fine and I'm sure decent sorcs will adapt. But this change is being downplayed far too much by people who don't understand sorc too well. Its a major nerf to the skill.

    @CyrusArya i should clarify. i think the change to frags is dumb. i think sorc is mostly fine where it's at now and i don't even play it except very, very rarely so i'm not calling for nerfs. i'm just saying the new changes to rune prison are pretty good. i wish they'd remove that change, give magdk back their 15m range on their own version, and give frags back its stun. figured the new sorc petrify would be good for lining up a burst on rolling/blocking targets since it drops that instantly. i know when i'm fighting a sorc and i see the hands glow the first thing i do is either CC you if youre off cooldown or block. So i don't feel i get hit by frags full damage very often.

    just silly decisions all around.
    Edited by krathos on October 4, 2017 4:19PM
    Flapjack Palmdale
    <ANIMOSITY>

    Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    DeHei wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I agree that magicka sorcs need to be tuned down slightly, but not on the offensive end. Their burst is in a good place on live right now. Anything I can burst down on my sorc I can burst down just as quickly on my stamblade. Against a target dummy, it is a lot easier to set up Msorc burst than on a stamblade. On the other hand, it is a lot easier to predict and therefore counter sorc burst than it is to counter stamblade burst. See how one burst is strong in the aspect that the other is weak in? Ya thats called balanced diversity. (I am only comparing burst here to iterate that sorc burst is not the issue)

    Taking the stun away from Frags affects sorc's burst the most, out of all their other strenghts affected by this change.

    What sorcs are really too strong in right now is shield stacking. Sorc defence is what should be targeted first, not its offence. We all know shields are getting a nerf hammer so it makes no sense to nerf frags before the necessary nerfs go in.

    Is this change game breaking?
    No. But it is a nuisance, especially for solo/small scale sorcs.

    On a side note. ZoS is killing solo/small scale play. Not everybody enjoys spamming heals while stacked on Crown OK.

    If this change does go through, which I hope it doesn't, streaks cost increase should be taken off as many will rely on streak as their cc, forcing Magicka sorcs into mid-range combat. This would mean that mobility and their ability to reposition becomes their new strength over ranged burst.

    ---Oh and for all those sorc haters happy frag got nerfed simply because its a sorc nerf---

    Food for thought:
    Would you rather have sorc cc tied to a telegraphed, slow moving dodgeable/blockable projectile or have it tied to an undodgeable/unblockable instantaneous ranged cc that perfectly sets up their burst?

    Because thats what this nerf is, the "balance" for Rune Prison becoming sorc primary CC. Pick your poison 7 pc divine medium night blades. Pick your poison.

    Yeah right just this 2 classes can bring there burst very efficient... Warden can use a very good combination too, but that class isnt balanced like sorcs or nightblades.. so all other have trouble to make a good burstcombo in PvP.
    Reasons for that are for example the better classskills for these classes. For example compare this finisher from sorcs with everything else, for example with templar. Sorcs can cast them instant and switch directly to other skills. templar need to stay some while they channel there finisher. Templar need to wait for right moment to bring this skill and they cant do anything else then. Sorcs just need to make pressure and when the target is low, its a granted kill. Wtf?
    Nightblades can make more pressure then every other class, true.
    But offensiv these 2 classes work better in PvP then every other.. so why not give that a balance? I would like for a buff for the other 3 classes, but they would just nerfed more and more... nobody is hoping for that anymore..

    btw. shields and all other defensive abilities are allready really expensive, a nerf of defense wouldnt be a great nerf. You need to bring your opponent under pressure to win a fight. When sorcs and nightblades wouldnt have these great offensiv rotations, they would need to use more defensive abilities to stay alive, because other could make more pressure to them!
    Offensive > Defensive!!!!

    But the point isnt to make all classes the same. A sorc has more burst because they lack sustained dmg. Other classes doenst have that burst because they have more sustained dmg.

    And if u get hit by a jesus beam with less than 20% hp ull probably die in one tick.
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
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    DeHei wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I agree that magicka sorcs need to be tuned down slightly, but not on the offensive end. Their burst is in a good place on live right now. Anything I can burst down on my sorc I can burst down just as quickly on my stamblade. Against a target dummy, it is a lot easier to set up Msorc burst than on a stamblade. On the other hand, it is a lot easier to predict and therefore counter sorc burst than it is to counter stamblade burst. See how one burst is strong in the aspect that the other is weak in? Ya thats called balanced diversity. (I am only comparing burst here to iterate that sorc burst is not the issue)

    Taking the stun away from Frags affects sorc's burst the most, out of all their other strenghts affected by this change.

    What sorcs are really too strong in right now is shield stacking. Sorc defence is what should be targeted first, not its offence. We all know shields are getting a nerf hammer so it makes no sense to nerf frags before the necessary nerfs go in.

    Is this change game breaking?
    No. But it is a nuisance, especially for solo/small scale sorcs.

    On a side note. ZoS is killing solo/small scale play. Not everybody enjoys spamming heals while stacked on Crown OK.

    If this change does go through, which I hope it doesn't, streaks cost increase should be taken off as many will rely on streak as their cc, forcing Magicka sorcs into mid-range combat. This would mean that mobility and their ability to reposition becomes their new strength over ranged burst.

    ---Oh and for all those sorc haters happy frag got nerfed simply because its a sorc nerf---

    Food for thought:
    Would you rather have sorc cc tied to a telegraphed, slow moving dodgeable/blockable projectile or have it tied to an undodgeable/unblockable instantaneous ranged cc that perfectly sets up their burst?

    Because thats what this nerf is, the "balance" for Rune Prison becoming sorc primary CC. Pick your poison 7 pc divine medium night blades. Pick your poison.

    Yeah right just this 2 classes can bring there burst very efficient... Warden can use a very good combination too, but that class isnt balanced like sorcs or nightblades.. so all other have trouble to make a good burstcombo in PvP.
    Reasons for that are for example the better classskills for these classes. For example compare this finisher from sorcs with everything else, for example with templar. Sorcs can cast them instant and switch directly to other skills. templar need to stay some while they channel there finisher. Templar need to wait for right moment to bring this skill and they cant do anything else then. Sorcs just need to make pressure and when the target is low, its a granted kill. Wtf?
    Nightblades can make more pressure then every other class, true.
    But offensiv these 2 classes work better in PvP then every other.. so why not give that a balance? I would like for a buff for the other 3 classes, but they would just nerfed more and more... nobody is hoping for that anymore..

    btw. shields and all other defensive abilities are allready really expensive, a nerf of defense wouldnt be a great nerf. You need to bring your opponent under pressure to win a fight. When sorcs and nightblades wouldnt have these great offensiv rotations, they would need to use more defensive abilities to stay alive, because other could make more pressure to them!
    Offensive > Defensive!!!!

    These two classes are meant to be burst classes though. So it makes sense that their burst is the most efficient because that is their entire toolkit. They are the most offensive, but they also get punished the hardest for having their defences down. If you catch a mag sorc with their shields down or a stamblade gets locked down, their pretty much dead against a player of the same skill level. That's just the flavour of the class.

    And while I advocate for a nerf to shield stacking either by removing it entirely or nerfing Harness Magicka, I expect these nerfs to come with some kind of kick back. For instance, if they remove stacking Hardened and Harness completely, I expect individual shields to gain somewhere around a 10% increase in base strength (35k-40k magicka should net you a 10k-12k shield) and an increase to 8 seconds duration. If they nerf only Harness, I'd expect an increase to the base strength of shields and a decrease in the ability scaling/Bastion. So in reality, I want ZoS to balance shield stacking, not nerf it.

    One can dream I suppose.
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maulkin wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »

    Food for thought:
    Would you rather have sorc cc tied to a telegraphed, slow moving dodgeable/blockable projectile or have it tied to an undodgeable/unblockable instantaneous ranged cc that perfectly sets up their burst?

    Because thats what this nerf is, the "balance" for Rune Prison becoming sorc primary CC. Pick your poison 7 pc divine medium night blades. Pick your poison.

    Double DoT poison. Duh, dummy.

    5k0uzbabgued.png


    LOL

    while I have you at your alchemy station, could you make me some GitGud pots? Because the answer to my questions was so obvious I can't deny that I'm a dummy :wink:
  • DeHei
    DeHei
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DeHei wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I agree that magicka sorcs need to be tuned down slightly, but not on the offensive end. Their burst is in a good place on live right now. Anything I can burst down on my sorc I can burst down just as quickly on my stamblade. Against a target dummy, it is a lot easier to set up Msorc burst than on a stamblade. On the other hand, it is a lot easier to predict and therefore counter sorc burst than it is to counter stamblade burst. See how one burst is strong in the aspect that the other is weak in? Ya thats called balanced diversity. (I am only comparing burst here to iterate that sorc burst is not the issue)

    Taking the stun away from Frags affects sorc's burst the most, out of all their other strenghts affected by this change.

    What sorcs are really too strong in right now is shield stacking. Sorc defence is what should be targeted first, not its offence. We all know shields are getting a nerf hammer so it makes no sense to nerf frags before the necessary nerfs go in.

    Is this change game breaking?
    No. But it is a nuisance, especially for solo/small scale sorcs.

    On a side note. ZoS is killing solo/small scale play. Not everybody enjoys spamming heals while stacked on Crown OK.

    If this change does go through, which I hope it doesn't, streaks cost increase should be taken off as many will rely on streak as their cc, forcing Magicka sorcs into mid-range combat. This would mean that mobility and their ability to reposition becomes their new strength over ranged burst.

    ---Oh and for all those sorc haters happy frag got nerfed simply because its a sorc nerf---

    Food for thought:
    Would you rather have sorc cc tied to a telegraphed, slow moving dodgeable/blockable projectile or have it tied to an undodgeable/unblockable instantaneous ranged cc that perfectly sets up their burst?

    Because thats what this nerf is, the "balance" for Rune Prison becoming sorc primary CC. Pick your poison 7 pc divine medium night blades. Pick your poison.

    Yeah right just this 2 classes can bring there burst very efficient... Warden can use a very good combination too, but that class isnt balanced like sorcs or nightblades.. so all other have trouble to make a good burstcombo in PvP.
    Reasons for that are for example the better classskills for these classes. For example compare this finisher from sorcs with everything else, for example with templar. Sorcs can cast them instant and switch directly to other skills. templar need to stay some while they channel there finisher. Templar need to wait for right moment to bring this skill and they cant do anything else then. Sorcs just need to make pressure and when the target is low, its a granted kill. Wtf?
    Nightblades can make more pressure then every other class, true.
    But offensiv these 2 classes work better in PvP then every other.. so why not give that a balance? I would like for a buff for the other 3 classes, but they would just nerfed more and more... nobody is hoping for that anymore..

    btw. shields and all other defensive abilities are allready really expensive, a nerf of defense wouldnt be a great nerf. You need to bring your opponent under pressure to win a fight. When sorcs and nightblades wouldnt have these great offensiv rotations, they would need to use more defensive abilities to stay alive, because other could make more pressure to them!
    Offensive > Defensive!!!!

    These two classes are meant to be burst classes though. So it makes sense that their burst is the most efficient because that is their entire toolkit. They are the most offensive, but they also get punished the hardest for having their defences down. If you catch a mag sorc with their shields down or a stamblade gets locked down, their pretty much dead against a player of the same skill level. That's just the flavour of the class.

    And while I advocate for a nerf to shield stacking either by removing it entirely or nerfing Harness Magicka, I expect these nerfs to come with some kind of kick back. For instance, if they remove stacking Hardened and Harness completely, I expect individual shields to gain somewhere around a 10% increase in base strength (35k-40k magicka should net you a 10k-12k shield) and an increase to 8 seconds duration. If they nerf only Harness, I'd expect an increase to the base strength of shields and a decrease in the ability scaling/Bastion. So in reality, I want ZoS to balance shield stacking, not nerf it.

    One can dream I suppose.

    That comparison dont work mate. Most Templar and DKs dont have shields, escapes or other stuff. They just have there healthpoints. Why do you think most of them play heavy armorbuilds with permablock?
    Good DKs and Templar have good healskills, but they work only, when some healthpoints are away... Its much more difficult to bring a sorc down against shields + healthpoints or a nightblade with cloak, what easily breaks good damage rotations.

    They have good offensive and better defensive options in my opinion.. I could play a nightblade or sorc too, but i dont want to go the easier way. I allways choose the minirity and never metastuff. A slightly buff or a change for good options too for the minortity classes i would prefer more then nerfs of a superior class..
    DeHei - EP Magicka Templar Allrounder
    De Hei(Youtube)
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    DeHei wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    DeHei wrote: »
    IAVITNI wrote: »
    I agree that magicka sorcs need to be tuned down slightly, but not on the offensive end. Their burst is in a good place on live right now. Anything I can burst down on my sorc I can burst down just as quickly on my stamblade. Against a target dummy, it is a lot easier to set up Msorc burst than on a stamblade. On the other hand, it is a lot easier to predict and therefore counter sorc burst than it is to counter stamblade burst. See how one burst is strong in the aspect that the other is weak in? Ya thats called balanced diversity. (I am only comparing burst here to iterate that sorc burst is not the issue)

    Taking the stun away from Frags affects sorc's burst the most, out of all their other strenghts affected by this change.

    What sorcs are really too strong in right now is shield stacking. Sorc defence is what should be targeted first, not its offence. We all know shields are getting a nerf hammer so it makes no sense to nerf frags before the necessary nerfs go in.

    Is this change game breaking?
    No. But it is a nuisance, especially for solo/small scale sorcs.

    On a side note. ZoS is killing solo/small scale play. Not everybody enjoys spamming heals while stacked on Crown OK.

    If this change does go through, which I hope it doesn't, streaks cost increase should be taken off as many will rely on streak as their cc, forcing Magicka sorcs into mid-range combat. This would mean that mobility and their ability to reposition becomes their new strength over ranged burst.

    ---Oh and for all those sorc haters happy frag got nerfed simply because its a sorc nerf---

    Food for thought:
    Would you rather have sorc cc tied to a telegraphed, slow moving dodgeable/blockable projectile or have it tied to an undodgeable/unblockable instantaneous ranged cc that perfectly sets up their burst?

    Because thats what this nerf is, the "balance" for Rune Prison becoming sorc primary CC. Pick your poison 7 pc divine medium night blades. Pick your poison.

    Yeah right just this 2 classes can bring there burst very efficient... Warden can use a very good combination too, but that class isnt balanced like sorcs or nightblades.. so all other have trouble to make a good burstcombo in PvP.
    Reasons for that are for example the better classskills for these classes. For example compare this finisher from sorcs with everything else, for example with templar. Sorcs can cast them instant and switch directly to other skills. templar need to stay some while they channel there finisher. Templar need to wait for right moment to bring this skill and they cant do anything else then. Sorcs just need to make pressure and when the target is low, its a granted kill. Wtf?
    Nightblades can make more pressure then every other class, true.
    But offensiv these 2 classes work better in PvP then every other.. so why not give that a balance? I would like for a buff for the other 3 classes, but they would just nerfed more and more... nobody is hoping for that anymore..

    btw. shields and all other defensive abilities are allready really expensive, a nerf of defense wouldnt be a great nerf. You need to bring your opponent under pressure to win a fight. When sorcs and nightblades wouldnt have these great offensiv rotations, they would need to use more defensive abilities to stay alive, because other could make more pressure to them!
    Offensive > Defensive!!!!

    These two classes are meant to be burst classes though. So it makes sense that their burst is the most efficient because that is their entire toolkit. They are the most offensive, but they also get punished the hardest for having their defences down. If you catch a mag sorc with their shields down or a stamblade gets locked down, their pretty much dead against a player of the same skill level. That's just the flavour of the class.

    And while I advocate for a nerf to shield stacking either by removing it entirely or nerfing Harness Magicka, I expect these nerfs to come with some kind of kick back. For instance, if they remove stacking Hardened and Harness completely, I expect individual shields to gain somewhere around a 10% increase in base strength (35k-40k magicka should net you a 10k-12k shield) and an increase to 8 seconds duration. If they nerf only Harness, I'd expect an increase to the base strength of shields and a decrease in the ability scaling/Bastion. So in reality, I want ZoS to balance shield stacking, not nerf it.

    One can dream I suppose.

    That comparison dont work mate. Most Templar and DKs dont have shields, escapes or other stuff. They just have there healthpoints. Why do you think most of them play heavy armorbuilds with permablock?
    Good DKs and Templar have good healskills, but they work only, when some healthpoints are away... Its much more difficult to bring a sorc down against shields + healthpoints or a nightblade with cloak, what easily breaks good damage rotations.

    They have good offensive and better defensive options in my opinion.. I could play a nightblade or sorc too, but i dont want to go the easier way. I allways choose the minirity and never metastuff. A slightly buff or a change for good options too for the minortity classes i would prefer more then nerfs of a superior class..

    Taking down a sorc or NB is harder than taking down a permablocking DK or Templar with insane healing capabilities? You cant possibly be serious now. It is harder for you specifically because you chose to play a build that is negated by mobile classes .

    But by all means play a sorc and then come back and tell us how easily you can take down a tanky 30k hp DK/Templar and how hard it is to burst down a NBs/sorc. You'd be surprised how easily things change.
  • templesus
    templesus
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    This thread should just be closed. To many people (mainly sorcs, although not only) looking at different viewpoints and proposing examples and discussions with far too much bias. I read earlier a comparison of mag sorc and stam nb burst to further ones argument, are you really comparing the 2nd highest burst class with the highest? Why not compare mag sorc burst with stam sorc? Or all classes for that matter? It’s just pure bias and it neglects any form of intelligent discussion that can be had.
  • WreckfulAbandon
    WreckfulAbandon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    templesus wrote: »
    This thread should just be closed. To many people (mainly sorcs, although not only) looking at different viewpoints and proposing examples and discussions with far too much bias. I read earlier a comparison of mag sorc and stam nb burst to further ones argument, are you really comparing the 2nd highest burst class with the highest? Why not compare mag sorc burst with stam sorc? Or all classes for that matter? It’s just pure bias and it neglects any form of intelligent discussion that can be had.

    Yeah, that totally makes sense if you are biased towards wanting to nerf sorcs.

    "Don't balance sorc burst vs good burst classes?!?"

    What would you rather balance them towards? Magicka DK? Pure bias indeed.
    PC NA

    All my comments are regarding PvP
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    ✭✭
    templesus wrote: »
    This thread should just be closed. To many people (mainly sorcs, although not only) looking at different viewpoints and proposing examples and discussions with far too much bias. I read earlier a comparison of mag sorc and stam nb burst to further ones argument, are you really comparing the 2nd highest burst class with the highest? Why not compare mag sorc burst with stam sorc? Or all classes for that matter? It’s just pure bias and it neglects any form of intelligent discussion that can be had.

    What neglects any form of intelligent discussion is comparing a class literally designed around burst with other classes designed around sustained dmg and complain why they dont have equal burst dmg but conveniently leave the sustained dmg part out of the equation.

    What also neglects any form of intelligent discussion is complaining about a cc on a class that would probably not even use it and at the same time advocate for a nerf to another cc no one complained about which would inevitably lead to the use of the cc you complain about.

    And you want to talk about bias? Joke is on you.
  • templesus
    templesus
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    ✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    This thread should just be closed. To many people (mainly sorcs, although not only) looking at different viewpoints and proposing examples and discussions with far too much bias. I read earlier a comparison of mag sorc and stam nb burst to further ones argument, are you really comparing the 2nd highest burst class with the highest? Why not compare mag sorc burst with stam sorc? Or all classes for that matter? It’s just pure bias and it neglects any form of intelligent discussion that can be had.

    What neglects any form of intelligent discussion is comparing a class literally designed around burst with other classes designed around sustained dmg and complain why they dont have equal burst dmg but conveniently leave the sustained dmg part out of the equation.

    What also neglects any form of intelligent discussion is complaining about a cc on a class that would probably not even use it and at the same time advocate for a nerf to another cc no one complained about which would inevitably lead to the use of the cc you complain about.

    And you want to talk about bias? Joke is on you.

    Not sure how the joke is on me I never said any of that...stam sorc is not sustained damage it is burst as well...the comparison I made was legitimate. Bias is not good. Let it go.
  • templesus
    templesus
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    ✭✭
    templesus wrote: »
    This thread should just be closed. To many people (mainly sorcs, although not only) looking at different viewpoints and proposing examples and discussions with far too much bias. I read earlier a comparison of mag sorc and stam nb burst to further ones argument, are you really comparing the 2nd highest burst class with the highest? Why not compare mag sorc burst with stam sorc? Or all classes for that matter? It’s just pure bias and it neglects any form of intelligent discussion that can be had.

    Yeah, that totally makes sense if you are biased towards wanting to nerf sorcs.

    "Don't balance sorc burst vs good burst classes?!?"

    What would you rather balance them towards? Magicka DK? Pure bias indeed.

    It wasn’t about balancing the burst, it was the way the person represented the information in order to further ones own argument, it was clear bias. Go read it. My mag sorc is my second character I play it as much as my main, I have no bias towards nerfing not not nerfing mag sorc. In my opinion the class overperforms in certain aspects, curse should be toned down(undodgeable unblockable damage is a no no) and they have to many defensive abilities in their arsenal compared to the other magicka classes.
    Edited by templesus on October 5, 2017 8:21PM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    ✭✭
    templesus wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    This thread should just be closed. To many people (mainly sorcs, although not only) looking at different viewpoints and proposing examples and discussions with far too much bias. I read earlier a comparison of mag sorc and stam nb burst to further ones argument, are you really comparing the 2nd highest burst class with the highest? Why not compare mag sorc burst with stam sorc? Or all classes for that matter? It’s just pure bias and it neglects any form of intelligent discussion that can be had.

    What neglects any form of intelligent discussion is comparing a class literally designed around burst with other classes designed around sustained dmg and complain why they dont have equal burst dmg but conveniently leave the sustained dmg part out of the equation.

    What also neglects any form of intelligent discussion is complaining about a cc on a class that would probably not even use it and at the same time advocate for a nerf to another cc no one complained about which would inevitably lead to the use of the cc you complain about.

    And you want to talk about bias? Joke is on you.

    Not sure how the joke is on me I never said any of that...stam sorc is not sustained damage it is burst as well...the comparison I made was legitimate. Bias is not good. Let it go.

    You talk about biased sorcs yet you conveniently leave everyone else that said those things i mentioned out of the discussion.

    You didnt just say stam sorcs. You said all classes. But you do realise that stam sorcs also have a lot of sustained dmg right? So why do you only compare burst dmg? Because its the only part that suits ur argument?

    Funny thing about stam sorc tho is that those biased sorcs has been literally advocating for crystal blast to be changed into a stam morph for years now. Biased you said? Yeah, indeed bias isnt good. You should let it go too.
  • templesus
    templesus
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    ✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    This thread should just be closed. To many people (mainly sorcs, although not only) looking at different viewpoints and proposing examples and discussions with far too much bias. I read earlier a comparison of mag sorc and stam nb burst to further ones argument, are you really comparing the 2nd highest burst class with the highest? Why not compare mag sorc burst with stam sorc? Or all classes for that matter? It’s just pure bias and it neglects any form of intelligent discussion that can be had.

    What neglects any form of intelligent discussion is comparing a class literally designed around burst with other classes designed around sustained dmg and complain why they dont have equal burst dmg but conveniently leave the sustained dmg part out of the equation.

    What also neglects any form of intelligent discussion is complaining about a cc on a class that would probably not even use it and at the same time advocate for a nerf to another cc no one complained about which would inevitably lead to the use of the cc you complain about.

    And you want to talk about bias? Joke is on you.

    Not sure how the joke is on me I never said any of that...stam sorc is not sustained damage it is burst as well...the comparison I made was legitimate. Bias is not good. Let it go.

    You talk about biased sorcs yet you conveniently leave everyone else that said those things i mentioned out of the discussion.

    You didnt just say stam sorcs. You said all classes. But you do realise that stam sorcs also have a lot of sustained dmg right? So why do you only compare burst dmg? Because its the only part that suits ur argument?

    Funny thing about stam sorc tho is that those biased sorcs has been literally advocating for crystal blast to be changed into a stam morph for years now. Biased you said? Yeah, indeed bias isnt good. You should let it go too.

    At this point I’m completely lost as too what you are talking about. It seems you are trying to make a point about my argument I never actually made rather referred to in in my original claim. Not sure what your angle is but I definitely said it wasn’t just sorcs being biased in my original comment. Go back and read. Then correct your logical fallacies.


    Edit: I am not interested in the argument of burst, just questioned why only the top 2 burst classes were compared, and pointed out bias is the cause as one can easily make vague comparisons b/w a magicka and stamina class who needs ult for its burst. As to stam sorc having sustained damage, a common 2h/bow stam sorc spamming dizzy swing does not whatsoever.
    Edited by templesus on October 5, 2017 9:29PM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    templesus wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    templesus wrote: »
    This thread should just be closed. To many people (mainly sorcs, although not only) looking at different viewpoints and proposing examples and discussions with far too much bias. I read earlier a comparison of mag sorc and stam nb burst to further ones argument, are you really comparing the 2nd highest burst class with the highest? Why not compare mag sorc burst with stam sorc? Or all classes for that matter? It’s just pure bias and it neglects any form of intelligent discussion that can be had.

    What neglects any form of intelligent discussion is comparing a class literally designed around burst with other classes designed around sustained dmg and complain why they dont have equal burst dmg but conveniently leave the sustained dmg part out of the equation.

    What also neglects any form of intelligent discussion is complaining about a cc on a class that would probably not even use it and at the same time advocate for a nerf to another cc no one complained about which would inevitably lead to the use of the cc you complain about.

    And you want to talk about bias? Joke is on you.

    Not sure how the joke is on me I never said any of that...stam sorc is not sustained damage it is burst as well...the comparison I made was legitimate. Bias is not good. Let it go.

    You talk about biased sorcs yet you conveniently leave everyone else that said those things i mentioned out of the discussion.

    You didnt just say stam sorcs. You said all classes. But you do realise that stam sorcs also have a lot of sustained dmg right? So why do you only compare burst dmg? Because its the only part that suits ur argument?

    Funny thing about stam sorc tho is that those biased sorcs has been literally advocating for crystal blast to be changed into a stam morph for years now. Biased you said? Yeah, indeed bias isnt good. You should let it go too.

    At this point I’m completely lost as too what you are talking about. It seems you are trying to make a point about my argument I never actually made rather referred to in in my original claim. Not sure what your angle is but I definitely said it wasn’t just sorcs being biased in my original comment. Go back and read. Then correct your logical fallacies.


    Edit: I am not interested in the argument of burst, just questioned why only the top 2 burst classes were compared, and pointed out bias is the cause as one can easily make vague comparisons b/w a magicka and stamina class who needs ult for its burst. As to stam sorc having sustained damage, a common 2h/bow stam sorc spamming dizzy swing does not whatsoever.

    Only the two top burst classes were compared because those are the only classes designed around burst dmg (well wardens can also have comparable burst but whatever). Whats the point of comparing the burst of other classes with the burst of sorcs?

    A 2h/bow still has more sustained dmg than a sorc. And playing a 2h/bow build is kinda your choice. You chose not to have sustained dmg. A mag sorc doesnt exactly have much of a choice (well unless you choose pets but thats still not much of a choice). Its the class that is designed around burst timed abilities. You are shoehorned into that playstyle. Even the defense of the class is pushing you into those windows of timed burst cause u constantly have to refresh ur shields if u dont want to get one shoted.

    I am the one who is lost as to what you are talking about. What is ur point when you ask why not compare the burst of all classes. What would be the point? And how does not comparing the burst of all classes makes someone biased? Its literally the exact opposite. Comparing the burst of other classes to sorcs and complain why its not on par is what make people biased because they conveniently completely ignore the part of sustained dmg.
    Edited by pieratsos on October 5, 2017 11:15PM
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