Tips for a New Magblade?

Koolio

CavalryPK wrote: »

I don't know about you dudes. but yesterday I tried (lizard) 5x shield breaker 5x torug's.... and 1 chokthorn... with all recovery glyphs 5 light 1med 1heavy.. infused weapons.. each light attack every weave was hitting for 5k unmitigated dmg (2.4 from infused and 2.5k from shieldbreaker). its fun against mag sorcs and block builds.... lol.... need more ppl to test this out.

I had 1.5k spell dmg. 2.2 k mag recovery. 31k mag. and 14k stamina....

I thought I found out ultimate Magblade cancer... however other builds that did not rely on shields or block.... were much harder to fight.

I would try knight slayer instead of shield breaker just for the magic stats. Liked it on my DW Kightslayer Amberplasm.



And got a question for you.

With infused knight slayer 1h tooltip of oblivion damage is almost 2100. Yet it hits target dummy for 1647. Does your hit for the right amount?

CavalryPK

Koolio wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

I don't know about you dudes. but yesterday I tried (lizard) 5x shield breaker 5x torug's.... and 1 chokthorn... with all recovery glyphs 5 light 1med 1heavy.. infused weapons.. each light attack every weave was hitting for 5k unmitigated dmg (2.4 from infused and 2.5k from shieldbreaker). its fun against mag sorcs and block builds.... lol.... need more ppl to test this out.

I had 1.5k spell dmg. 2.2 k mag recovery. 31k mag. and 14k stamina....

I thought I found out ultimate Magblade cancer... however other builds that did not rely on shields or block.... were much harder to fight.

I would try knight slayer instead of shield breaker just for the magic stats. Liked it on my DW Kightslayer Amberplasm.



And got a question for you.

With infused knight slayer 1h tooltip of oblivion damage is almost 2100. Yet it hits target dummy for 1647. Does your hit for the right amount?

Not sure about the tooltip. will double check today... the reason I am not use knight slayer is because you have to charge up the heavy attack.. and as a destro / resto magblade... I do like ma light attacks.. every time I try a heavy attack it messes up my animations. essentially I won against a good sorc by not doing anything but light attack and healing warding.

Lexxypwns

@NightbladeMechanics did you actually just suggest fasallas or duroks? They've got arguably the worst 2-4 set bonuses of any support sets you can run. Sure you'll be tanky and give good group support but all your other stats aren't great and you lack sustain.

Furthermore, SPC in light is a ton of damage, even though you're correct that wrath partially offsets it on you. You're blatantly ignoring the penetration and crit chance from light in this whole arguement even though the penetration alone is more outright damage than you get from a 5pc.

You say that all the sustain from light isn't needed, but I say that the extra mitigation from heavy isn't needed either. For example, trans+riposte in light is far more damage than duroks+julianos even with wrath proc'ed. Heavy will have better healing, but that is partially offset by the crit chance light armor gains.

For a support focused mageblade there's simply no need to go 5 heavy, you have the tools to survive in light and will provide much more group utility with light armor sets. Sure, you may personally squeeze a better build for yourself out of heavy, but proc'ing trans or SPC(trans+spec+bloodspawn is definitely enough defense, because resto ulti) on your group members is going to make the overall team much stronger.

Koolio

CavalryPK wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

I don't know about you dudes. but yesterday I tried (lizard) 5x shield breaker 5x torug's.... and 1 chokthorn... with all recovery glyphs 5 light 1med 1heavy.. infused weapons.. each light attack every weave was hitting for 5k unmitigated dmg (2.4 from infused and 2.5k from shieldbreaker). its fun against mag sorcs and block builds.... lol.... need more ppl to test this out.

I had 1.5k spell dmg. 2.2 k mag recovery. 31k mag. and 14k stamina....

I thought I found out ultimate Magblade cancer... however other builds that did not rely on shields or block.... were much harder to fight.

I would try knight slayer instead of shield breaker just for the magic stats. Liked it on my DW Kightslayer Amberplasm.



And got a question for you.

With infused knight slayer 1h tooltip of oblivion damage is almost 2100. Yet it hits target dummy for 1647. Does your hit for the right amount?

Not sure about the tooltip. will double check today... the reason I am not use knight slayer is because you have to charge up the heavy attack.. and as a destro / resto magblade... I do like ma light attacks.. every time I try a heavy attack it messes up my animations. essentially I won against a good sorc by not doing anything but light attack and healing warding.

I can see that. The difference of Destro Resto and DW. Those animations definitely need some QOL improvements.

Rip Sorc lol.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Lexxypwns wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

@Lexxypwns what defensive sets do you recommend? Wizards riposte and transmutation?

I run trans/riposte/bloodspawn/wyrd tree(healthy jewels ghastly eye bowl)/troll king. Pick 2 of those and pair it with a damage set or run all defensive in a small group and be able to brawl, offer exceptional support, and still have big burst for priority targets.

Gossamer is decent front bar but the uptime is a bit too low for stam builds to justify dropping shuffle.

This can free up actual healers to run more sustain or spell damage or focus on their own survivability more since you easily provide support and lots of off heals

Edit: in trans/riposte/bs all tri-glyphs ghastly eye bowl drink my tooltip on assassins will is ~15k not in stealth or empowered with a 1.9 CHD modifier, that's what I mean by big damage

@Lexxypwns
Mine is 26k not in stealth, not empowered

Currently @ 55k mag, 12k stam, 2.4sd(buffed with entropy) 23.4k hp
Mag rec 1.6k(pretty low but np with seducer)
Best hits so far was a 16.6k empowered bow (vs a player) and a 20.4k shooting star

NightbladeMechanics

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics did you actually just suggest fasallas or duroks? They've got arguably the worst 2-4 set bonuses of any support sets you can run. Sure you'll be tanky and give good group support but all your other stats aren't great and you lack sustain.

Furthermore, SPC in light is a ton of damage, even though you're correct that wrath partially offsets it on you. You're blatantly ignoring the penetration and crit chance from light in this whole arguement even though the penetration alone is more outright damage than you get from a 5pc.

You say that all the sustain from light isn't needed, but I say that the extra mitigation from heavy isn't needed either. For example, trans+riposte in light is far more damage than duroks+julianos even with wrath proc'ed. Heavy will have better healing, but that is partially offset by the crit chance light armor gains.

For a support focused mageblade there's simply no need to go 5 heavy, you have the tools to survive in light and will provide much more group utility with light armor sets. Sure, you may personally squeeze a better build for yourself out of heavy, but proc'ing trans or SPC(trans+spec+bloodspawn is definitely enough defense, because resto ulti) on your group members is going to make the overall team much stronger.

Yes, I am. Have you run Fasalla's or Durok's before? I've run them in numerous builds for solo and small group play ever since Thieves Guild patch, and they're very good. Consider permanent heal debuffs like indirect damage, impairing enemies' abilities to recover from damage instead of damaging them outright, and even heavy armor Durok's + Trans + Valkyn will deliver 15k+ Assassin's Wills on target while almost halving enemy heals, making your group tankier, and tanking damage for days. Fasalla's is more situational following its nerfs, but you should try Durok's sometime when your group doesn't have a heal debuff handy. I farmed a Defending Durok's resto staff during Morrowind for a reason.

Transmutation, Riposte, and Durok's Bane (replacing Fasalla's following its nerfs) are currently the strongest utility sets, hands down. You'll notice having a defile in your group more than you'll notice the extra damage from SPC unless you're fighting a bunch of sorcs (of course you won't want to double up on debuffs either). You just don't see many people running Durok's because Wardens have Corrupting Pollen.

Keep in mind that you can use 2/3 Arcane jewelry with Durok's. You can fit that into a light armor build.

But regarding light armor passives versus heavy armor passives, both are plenty valuable. They just give you different stats for different priorities. I argue that once you have sufficient sustain, you can never have too much damage or tankiness. Which you decide to pursue is up to you and your priorities. When playing supportive roles, I look at what each armor type gives me, and I choose the longer list:

Light armor:

• magicka sustain
• crit
• pen

Heavy armor:

• max health
• bonus healing
• magicka sustain
• stamina sustain
• resistances
• a little spell damage

Using light armor is perfectly fine if you want to deal more damage, but damage is seldom my main priority when playing support mageblade roles. I'd rather survive the inevitable hard focus better, and the damage in heavy is still strong.

Edit: this is an old video wearing Fasalla's + Willpower. The build would have been better with Trans and Valkyn, and would substitute in Durok's today of course. It's not great damage, but it's still lethal. It's different but still good in different ways!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzx2p1rKLtk

Autumnhart

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I don't consider it a hard counter because when you know they're using it, you can weave light attacks closely with your proc to bypass it. Combo when you have cc immunity or tap block when you see the projectile coming back at you, and you won't get cced. DK wings and Shimmering Shield are stronger counters because they block longer windows of attacks.

It's really annoying fighting reflects with melee builds.. Your kill potential is still your projectile, but you can only pop the reflects from your back bar. Opponents can just apply their reflect whenever you switch to your front bar. lol

I consider it a hard counter if it directly nips the bud of the build. Without the burst from the bow MagNB is always fighting a up hill battle. IDK about you on PC, but on PS4 when I swap to back bar to press my happy-bow-proc button, if the button gets double tapped it cancels the proc -_- I have slippery jittery hands when I fight and it happens enough to where I can't really play bow-proc MagNB without getting depressed.

I meant that I don’t consider it a hard counter because the counterplay is so easy. Give the gitters some practice and experience, and they’ll wear off.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

One thing @NightbladeMechanics mechanics failed to mention. Light armor mageblade has the ability to mimic heavy armor mageblade by running defensive utility sets and using the superb light armor passives and innate burst to deliver lethal damage.

I'll also speak on BGs since I truly believe that's where mageblade can shine. You can load tons of utility onto mageblade and turn yourself into a resto ult battery while still putting out major burst damage and having a ranged execute. I'll often out heal dedicated healers and still put out very nice damage on a build that is tanky enough to carry relic or chaos ball for prolonged periods

It doesn't mimic it, but it gets close. As I showed in my Morrowind destro video, Riposte + Trans is stupidly tanky. My impression these days, though, is that destro mageblade does not need the penetration and crit passives to deal very high damage and does not need the cost reduction and regen passives to sustain. I've had superior results in solo and small scale play wearing heavy armor. You deal way more damage and tank harder than light armor Riposte + Trans, and you deal about the same damage and tank waaaay harder than one of those two mitigation sets + a light armor damage set. Heavy armor passives are all more impactful if you're utilizing the heals in your kit, Wrath does add up, and you get all those extra resistances. Plus Argonian is ideal for any style mageblade aside from bombing, and Argonian passives scale nicely with heavy armor max health and healing.

Melee mageblade is the opposite. You don't need heavy armor healing and resistances, and you can't really sustain cloak + concealed without light armor unless you heavy attack a ton. I hate heavy attacking in general, so...

As for BGs, yea that's a small and controlled encounter. My style of sap-tanky destro mageblade shines in any small group because it puts out so many hots while still delivering significant burst damage. I've said in the past that this style of mageblade is the single highest impact class to have one of in a group of 6 or fewer. That's my opinion, but I like to argue for it. When I did BGs, I'd often get near or pass 1 mil damage and healing without changing much in my play style or bars. The builds just put out so much damage and healing that it adds up quickly.

The problem with heavy armor mageblade is the lack of appealing group utility sets available in heavy, this shoe horns you into running troll king or bloodspawn for group utility. As great as your off heals and such are, when you can proc SPC and trans off your build it becomes exponentially stronger than a heavy armor build, imo, despite putting out less healing.

I had a list of more good heavy armor, single bar utility sets, but I’d have to log in to read it..

I'm a nightblade, I can wait patiently.

Trashs1

im also planing to do a mageblade because of the high diversity it offers and the interesting playstyle (current main are magsorc and stamblade)

it starts for me with the race:

im struggeling between:

dunmer
breton
lizzard (unlikely because ... its a lizzard...)

any sugestions?

NightbladeMechanics

Trashs1 wrote: »

im also planing to do a mageblade because of the high diversity it offers and the interesting playstyle (current main are magsorc and stamblade)

it starts for me with the race:

im struggeling between:

dunmer
breton
lizzard (unlikely because ... its a lizzard...)

any sugestions?

Lizard 100%, unless you're looking to bomb. Then high elf.

Argonian potion passive (Resourceful) gives 4620 magicka, stamina, and health every time you pop a potion.

4620 / 45s potion cooldown *2 = a little over 205 equivalent magicka and stamina regen from the passive.

205 / 9 *100 = a high elf would need to have over 2281 base magicka regen before applying its 9% regen passive in order to break even with the magicka half of this. You will never build that much regen buffed up, much less that much base regen.

This translates into needing to use fewer jewelry glyphs for sustain, or being able to use the Apprentice instead of the Atronach, or other concessions in your build. In the end, you will gain back more damage that way than you would gain from 7% additional magicka (the difference between high elf and argonian).

Lizard master race!

NightbladeMechanics

I love this class, but man I just can't get excited about PvP. lol After a couple years, it's all just blurring together. Same old thing every time I play. RIP

Trashs1

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Trashs1 wrote: »

im also planing to do a mageblade because of the high diversity it offers and the interesting playstyle (current main are magsorc and stamblade)

it starts for me with the race:

im struggeling between:

dunmer
breton
lizzard (unlikely because ... its a lizzard...)

any sugestions?

Lizard 100%, unless you're looking to bomb. Then high elf.

Argonian potion passive (Resourceful) gives 4620 magicka, stamina, and health every time you pop a potion.

4620 / 45s potion cooldown *2 = a little over 205 equivalent magicka and stamina regen from the passive.

205 / 9 *100 = a high elf would need to have over 2281 base magicka regen before applying its 9% regen passive in order to break even with the magicka half of this. You will never build that much regen buffed up, much less that much base regen.

This translates into needing to use fewer jewelry glyphs for sustain, or being able to use the Apprentice instead of the Atronach, or other concessions in your build. In the end, you will gain back more damage that way than you would gain from 7% additional magicka (the difference between high elf and argonian).

Lizard master race!

thx a lot

Takes-No-Prisoner

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I love this class, but man I just can't get excited about PvP. lol After a couple years, it's all just blurring together. Same old thing every time I play. RIP

I have 10 characters and I'm in a similar situation, guess we outta put up our PvP hats for awhile and take a nice long nap from it.

Lexxypwns

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics did you actually just suggest fasallas or duroks? They've got arguably the worst 2-4 set bonuses of any support sets you can run. Sure you'll be tanky and give good group support but all your other stats aren't great and you lack sustain.

Furthermore, SPC in light is a ton of damage, even though you're correct that wrath partially offsets it on you. You're blatantly ignoring the penetration and crit chance from light in this whole arguement even though the penetration alone is more outright damage than you get from a 5pc.

You say that all the sustain from light isn't needed, but I say that the extra mitigation from heavy isn't needed either. For example, trans+riposte in light is far more damage than duroks+julianos even with wrath proc'ed. Heavy will have better healing, but that is partially offset by the crit chance light armor gains.

For a support focused mageblade there's simply no need to go 5 heavy, you have the tools to survive in light and will provide much more group utility with light armor sets. Sure, you may personally squeeze a better build for yourself out of heavy, but proc'ing trans or SPC(trans+spec+bloodspawn is definitely enough defense, because resto ulti) on your group members is going to make the overall team much stronger.

Yes, I am. Have you run Fasalla's or Durok's before? I've run them in numerous builds for solo and small group play ever since Thieves Guild patch, and they're very good. Consider permanent heal debuffs like indirect damage, impairing enemies' abilities to recover from damage instead of damaging them outright, and even heavy armor Durok's + Trans + Valkyn will deliver 15k+ Assassin's Wills on target while almost halving enemy heals, making your group tankier, and tanking damage for days. Fasalla's is more situational following its nerfs, but you should try Durok's sometime when your group doesn't have a heal debuff handy. I farmed a Defending Durok's resto staff during Morrowind for a reason.

Transmutation, Riposte, and Durok's Bane (replacing Fasalla's following its nerfs) are currently the strongest utility sets, hands down. You'll notice having a defile in your group more than you'll notice the extra damage from SPC unless you're fighting a bunch of sorcs (of course you won't want to double up on debuffs either). You just don't see many people running Durok's because Wardens have Corrupting Pollen.

Keep in mind that you can use 2/3 Arcane jewelry with Durok's. You can fit that into a light armor build.

But regarding light armor passives versus heavy armor passives, both are plenty valuable. They just give you different stats for different priorities. I argue that once you have sufficient sustain, you can never have too much damage or tankiness. Which you decide to pursue is up to you and your priorities. When playing supportive roles, I look at what each armor type gives me, and I choose the longer list:

Light armor:

• magicka sustain
• crit
• pen

Heavy armor:

• max health
• bonus healing
• magicka sustain
• stamina sustain
• resistances
• a little spell damage

Using light armor is perfectly fine if you want to deal more damage, but damage is seldom my main priority when playing support mageblade roles. I'd rather survive the inevitable hard focus better, and the damage in heavy is still strong.

Edit: this is an old video wearing Fasalla's + Willpower. The build would have been better with Trans and Valkyn, and would substitute in Durok's today of course. It's not great damage, but it's still lethal. It's different but still good in different ways!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzx2p1rKLtk

Yeah, I've run them and they unquestionably have *** 2-4 pc and there's no real debating that. Furthermore, wearing Durok's is a wildly inefficient considering warden has spammable aoe major defile that doesn't require someone in your group to use a whole 5pc for it.

As to running skoria on mageblade for small group, just... no. Your group support is much better in Bloodspawn, not to mention bloodspawn is already objectively superior to skoria if you don't need the additional damage, and you don't if you're in light. More resto ultis and bloodspawn+major ward/resolve pushes you to ~23k resists in light.

Furthermore, I'm curious about your Green CP allotment, I'm running basically nothing into arcanist, allowing me to stack nice points into both befoul and shadow ward and still have flawless magika sustain and my stam sustain is such that I can block, dodge roll, CC break and never run out.

5 Trans/SPC/BS is unquestionably a better group setup than 5 trans/5durok's/skoria and that's without having a warden present to supply aoe major defile. As soon as you add in another source of major defile(banner, corrupting spores) then running durok's becomes less efficient and Fasalla's isn't worth wearing unless you're stacking befoul at which point you won't be able to sustain anymore in heavy armor. That's not even mentioning that you should have fasalla's on someone with aoe major defile already to make the most efficient use of the person stacking befoul.

Finally, heavy may give you "more" but its debatable how much of it you actually need and counting constitution as reliable sustain is dubious at best, sure you can sustain in heavy but that's more based on sets and mechanics than constitution bringing much value to the table, the resists are almost completely offset by being able to run a BS instead of Skoria and you'll still have more damage in light. By listing just "crit" you're not expanding on the fact that it improves your burst, pressure, and healing. Also, no heavy armor passive gives you a greater benefit than a 5pc set bonus while light armor certainly does. Then, factor in getting resource poisoned in heavy and the problems trying to sustain against competent players once resource poisons are applied and its a no brainer imo.

I'm not saying your build suggestions don't work in a vacuum, but when you take a broader view of group composition there's no reason that you should have your mageblade as your Durok's or Fasalla's platform when there are much more efficient options. What you don't have is a more efficient option to proc SPC+trans on a build that's can also focus completely on dealing damage.

CavalryPK

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics did you actually just suggest fasallas or duroks? They've got arguably the worst 2-4 set bonuses of any support sets you can run. Sure you'll be tanky and give good group support but all your other stats aren't great and you lack sustain.

Furthermore, SPC in light is a ton of damage, even though you're correct that wrath partially offsets it on you. You're blatantly ignoring the penetration and crit chance from light in this whole arguement even though the penetration alone is more outright damage than you get from a 5pc.

You say that all the sustain from light isn't needed, but I say that the extra mitigation from heavy isn't needed either. For example, trans+riposte in light is far more damage than duroks+julianos even with wrath proc'ed. Heavy will have better healing, but that is partially offset by the crit chance light armor gains.

For a support focused mageblade there's simply no need to go 5 heavy, you have the tools to survive in light and will provide much more group utility with light armor sets. Sure, you may personally squeeze a better build for yourself out of heavy, but proc'ing trans or SPC(trans+spec+bloodspawn is definitely enough defense, because resto ulti) on your group members is going to make the overall team much stronger.

Yes, I am. Have you run Fasalla's or Durok's before? I've run them in numerous builds for solo and small group play ever since Thieves Guild patch, and they're very good. Consider permanent heal debuffs like indirect damage, impairing enemies' abilities to recover from damage instead of damaging them outright, and even heavy armor Durok's + Trans + Valkyn will deliver 15k+ Assassin's Wills on target while almost halving enemy heals, making your group tankier, and tanking damage for days. Fasalla's is more situational following its nerfs, but you should try Durok's sometime when your group doesn't have a heal debuff handy. I farmed a Defending Durok's resto staff during Morrowind for a reason.

Transmutation, Riposte, and Durok's Bane (replacing Fasalla's following its nerfs) are currently the strongest utility sets, hands down. You'll notice having a defile in your group more than you'll notice the extra damage from SPC unless you're fighting a bunch of sorcs (of course you won't want to double up on debuffs either). You just don't see many people running Durok's because Wardens have Corrupting Pollen.

Keep in mind that you can use 2/3 Arcane jewelry with Durok's. You can fit that into a light armor build.

But regarding light armor passives versus heavy armor passives, both are plenty valuable. They just give you different stats for different priorities. I argue that once you have sufficient sustain, you can never have too much damage or tankiness. Which you decide to pursue is up to you and your priorities. When playing supportive roles, I look at what each armor type gives me, and I choose the longer list:

Light armor:

• magicka sustain
• crit
• pen

Heavy armor:

• max health
• bonus healing
• magicka sustain
• stamina sustain
• resistances
• a little spell damage

Using light armor is perfectly fine if you want to deal more damage, but damage is seldom my main priority when playing support mageblade roles. I'd rather survive the inevitable hard focus better, and the damage in heavy is still strong.

Edit: this is an old video wearing Fasalla's + Willpower. The build would have been better with Trans and Valkyn, and would substitute in Durok's today of course. It's not great damage, but it's still lethal. It's different but still good in different ways!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzx2p1rKLtk

2 stupid question....
1. does Durok's heal major defile stack with harvests major defile?
2. Will Befouls CP increase the major defile % from Durok's?

Trashs1

what sets are spc and bs? trans i know..^^

NBrookus

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Heavy attack + Soul Harvest ganking:

• don't worry about it. The recent heavy attack nerfs rekt it
• used to be the highest upfront single target burst from stealth in the game

I would add Soul Assault ganking. I positively stink at magblade but tried it out and had nearly 100% success with {buffs} + Heavy Attack into Flame Reach + Soul Assault. Follow up with Impale if not quite dead.

I stopped doing it because it wasn't helping at the only reason I wanted to learn to play magblade: to understand them better because they routinely tear me up.

NBrookus

CavalryPK wrote: »

2 stupid question....
1. does Durok's heal major defile stack with harvests major defile?
2. Will Befouls CP increase the major defile % from Durok's?

Major Defile is Major Defile: it doesn't stack because it's a same-named buff. You can stack Major Defile and Minor Defile though.

Trashs1 wrote: »

what sets are spc and bs? trans i know..^^

Spell Power Cure
Bloodspawn

CavalryPK

NBrookus wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

2 stupid question....
1. does Durok's heal major defile stack with harvests major defile?
2. Will Befouls CP increase the major defile % from Durok's?

Major Defile is Major Defile: it doesn't stack because it's a same-named buff. You can stack Major Defile and Minor Defile though.

Trashs1 wrote: »

what sets are spc and bs? trans i know..^^

Spell Power Cure
Bloodspawn

Thanks

Waffennacht

*waits for the influx of mag NBs*

Of course, the NBs...

I wonder how my newer build will do...

Probably gonna have to slot Shimmering always now...

Of course, my hardest match up...

bubbygink

To chime in on the heavy v. light debate, I much prefer light in no-CP BGs. In open world world, CP Cyrodiil heavy may be better, but I rarely do that anymore - I mainly just play BGs. I believe light gives better damage, sustain, and utility while it doesn't really even lack in survivability depending on how you play.

In BGs you really aren't hitting 15k bows in any setup, let alone the Durok's + Trans + Valkyn setup mentioned above. I think 11k-12k or so is the hardest non-empowered (so could get up to 13-14k empowered) bow I've hit in a BG and it would be while wearing Spinners with resto ult going and on a squishy targets. If anybody has any videos of hitting harder bows in BGs, especially in heavy I'd love to see it but I'm guessing you'd have to have a full on damage build, like a Spinners + Alch setup or something, which wouldn't allow for any sustain. In short, you can't throw down the crazy burst in no-CP like you can in CP so I find I really need the extra pen and the crit (crit chance is very low in no-CP if you wear heavy) from LA to be able to output damage.

Sustain is clearly better for me in no CP in light armor. I play Altmer and run lich so having the LA regen stacks very well for me. The reduced cost is very helpful to stop you from burning through your magicka so fast, especially with a reduced magicka pool.

As @Lexxypwns suggested, there are just simply way more useful LA utility sets and are just better sets for LA in general. War Maiden, Spinners, BSW, Necro, Overwhelming, Alteration Mastery, Lich, Riposte, Trans, SPC, Worm, etc. I think most groups would prefer a Riposte + Trans Magblade in their group or maybe a SPC + Trans than a Magblade wearing fasallas or duroks. The warden can bring the Major defile via a class skill (and the ones I play with do).

In short, if your group is mainly looking for you to do damage, light makes sense - I typically run with a magplar and mag warden that bring a ton of utility already so I just spec for damage with Skoria + Spinners + Lich, I wouldn't be doing near as much damage in heavy. On the other hand, if your group does need you to have some utility, I think light also makes sense. I've had death matches where I've done pretty close to 2 mil damage while also doing about half a mil healing while barely dying. I just don't see any way at all that can be pulled off in heavy, and I don't see how heavy would help me perform better - I really don't see any reason to run it in BGs. So I guess the tl;dr is that I suggest going light if you want to focus on BGs.

NightbladeMechanics

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics did you actually just suggest fasallas or duroks? They've got arguably the worst 2-4 set bonuses of any support sets you can run. Sure you'll be tanky and give good group support but all your other stats aren't great and you lack sustain.

Furthermore, SPC in light is a ton of damage, even though you're correct that wrath partially offsets it on you. You're blatantly ignoring the penetration and crit chance from light in this whole arguement even though the penetration alone is more outright damage than you get from a 5pc.

You say that all the sustain from light isn't needed, but I say that the extra mitigation from heavy isn't needed either. For example, trans+riposte in light is far more damage than duroks+julianos even with wrath proc'ed. Heavy will have better healing, but that is partially offset by the crit chance light armor gains.

For a support focused mageblade there's simply no need to go 5 heavy, you have the tools to survive in light and will provide much more group utility with light armor sets. Sure, you may personally squeeze a better build for yourself out of heavy, but proc'ing trans or SPC(trans+spec+bloodspawn is definitely enough defense, because resto ulti) on your group members is going to make the overall team much stronger.

Yes, I am. Have you run Fasalla's or Durok's before? I've run them in numerous builds for solo and small group play ever since Thieves Guild patch, and they're very good. Consider permanent heal debuffs like indirect damage, impairing enemies' abilities to recover from damage instead of damaging them outright, and even heavy armor Durok's + Trans + Valkyn will deliver 15k+ Assassin's Wills on target while almost halving enemy heals, making your group tankier, and tanking damage for days. Fasalla's is more situational following its nerfs, but you should try Durok's sometime when your group doesn't have a heal debuff handy. I farmed a Defending Durok's resto staff during Morrowind for a reason.

Transmutation, Riposte, and Durok's Bane (replacing Fasalla's following its nerfs) are currently the strongest utility sets, hands down. You'll notice having a defile in your group more than you'll notice the extra damage from SPC unless you're fighting a bunch of sorcs (of course you won't want to double up on debuffs either). You just don't see many people running Durok's because Wardens have Corrupting Pollen.

Keep in mind that you can use 2/3 Arcane jewelry with Durok's. You can fit that into a light armor build.

But regarding light armor passives versus heavy armor passives, both are plenty valuable. They just give you different stats for different priorities. I argue that once you have sufficient sustain, you can never have too much damage or tankiness. Which you decide to pursue is up to you and your priorities. When playing supportive roles, I look at what each armor type gives me, and I choose the longer list:

Light armor:

• magicka sustain
• crit
• pen

Heavy armor:

• max health
• bonus healing
• magicka sustain
• stamina sustain
• resistances
• a little spell damage

Using light armor is perfectly fine if you want to deal more damage, but damage is seldom my main priority when playing support mageblade roles. I'd rather survive the inevitable hard focus better, and the damage in heavy is still strong.

Edit: this is an old video wearing Fasalla's + Willpower. The build would have been better with Trans and Valkyn, and would substitute in Durok's today of course. It's not great damage, but it's still lethal. It's different but still good in different ways!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzx2p1rKLtk

Yeah, I've run them and they unquestionably have *** 2-4 pc and there's no real debating that. Furthermore, wearing Durok's is a wildly inefficient considering warden has spammable aoe major defile that doesn't require someone in your group to use a whole 5pc for it.

As to running skoria on mageblade for small group, just... no. Your group support is much better in Bloodspawn, not to mention bloodspawn is already objectively superior to skoria if you don't need the additional damage, and you don't if you're in light. More resto ultis and bloodspawn+major ward/resolve pushes you to ~23k resists in light.

Furthermore, I'm curious about your Green CP allotment, I'm running basically nothing into arcanist, allowing me to stack nice points into both befoul and shadow ward and still have flawless magika sustain and my stam sustain is such that I can block, dodge roll, CC break and never run out.

5 Trans/SPC/BS is unquestionably a better group setup than 5 trans/5durok's/skoria and that's without having a warden present to supply aoe major defile. As soon as you add in another source of major defile(banner, corrupting spores) then running durok's becomes less efficient and Fasalla's isn't worth wearing unless you're stacking befoul at which point you won't be able to sustain anymore in heavy armor. That's not even mentioning that you should have fasalla's on someone with aoe major defile already to make the most efficient use of the person stacking befoul.

Finally, heavy may give you "more" but its debatable how much of it you actually need and counting constitution as reliable sustain is dubious at best, sure you can sustain in heavy but that's more based on sets and mechanics than constitution bringing much value to the table, the resists are almost completely offset by being able to run a BS instead of Skoria and you'll still have more damage in light. By listing just "crit" you're not expanding on the fact that it improves your burst, pressure, and healing. Also, no heavy armor passive gives you a greater benefit than a 5pc set bonus while light armor certainly does. Then, factor in getting resource poisoned in heavy and the problems trying to sustain against competent players once resource poisons are applied and its a no brainer imo.

I'm not saying your build suggestions don't work in a vacuum, but when you take a broader view of group composition there's no reason that you should have your mageblade as your Durok's or Fasalla's platform when there are much more efficient options. What you don't have is a more efficient option to proc SPC+trans on a build that's can also focus completely on dealing damage.

I actually pointed out that Wardens have phased out Durok's, but do you always play with a Warden friend? I can't tell if you're arguing about theorycrafted premade small group compositions or random BGs. I wasn't talking about either originally. My original post discussed solo build archetypes. Regardless, I consider an on-demand Major Defile mandatory for group play -- more than SPC without a doubt unless you're fighting a bunch of sorcs. A Warden would be ideal, but Fasalla's or Durok's + either a damage set or a utility set have made for some powerful mageblade builds in the past. Talk to ZOS about their spammable aoe Major Defile.

I wrote in Skoria as a random example once and as an example of what I'd use when soloing in the edit. I use Troll King when I play support because I don't aspire to be a resto ult bot. I have always designed my group compositions to survive without having to ult. This means mitigation sets, mostly heavy armor, big hots, Guards, and at least one magplar most of the time. Building this way allows you to use actual offensive ults, which will be more lethal than chaining resto ults. Resto ult, snb ult, and trees are for emergency use only, or when you're greatly outnumbered and need to cover your defense while you go aggressive. I'd take a meteor or dawnbreaker or tether over a resto ulti if I can help it.

My green CP are similar. The regen stars have been underwhelming since their nerfs, and I never really felt like break free cost reduction made a difference for me. I only stack into regen when I'm using Lich (seldom) or want Windrunning (on my sorc and melee mageblade builds). Those builds have to remain mobile and don't block as much because of streak, shields, cloak, and shade, but my destro mageblade builds do. I use a lot of points into Shadow Ward and Befoul there, plus 1% in Siphoner in all of my builds in the hopes that people purge it instead of something more important.

You don't give Constitution enough credit. It's 270 regen equivalent with 5pc heavy. You argued earlier that light armor penetration is more than Spinner 5pc. Well, Constitution is more than Amber Plasm 5pc, and it doesn't shut off if you block or mist form. Argonian + Constitution + Witchmother's + Siphoning Attacks is perfectly fine magikca sustain and excessive stamina sustain for me. If I slot ele drain, then I can run tristat food too. I like mark too much though..

The amount of tankiness that you need is certainly debatable, but when I PvP, I'm always the main focus. I'm leading my groups, my guys rely on me as the backbone, and everyone knows to focus me down hard. Heavy makes worlds of difference for me when we're fighting outnumbered.

I actually have more issues against resource poisons when in light armor. It's easier to take a breather and slip in a couple heavy attacks when you have higher max health, higher resistances, higher healing received, and then the heavy attacks themselves restore more magicka as well. In light armor, I often have to cast more healing wards and defensive fears when poisoned.

I don't see why this is an argument. Heavy and light both clearly have their places in different builds, and heavy certainly has its place in builds relying on heals over time for defense.

kaithuzar

I was a big proponent of heavy since before it was cool, but even I've been rocking the 5 light destro setup these past 2 patches.
How are you heavy guys killing in this tank meta w/o spinner; I'd imagine it's a must.
IMO I don't see how magblades survive in light w/o wizard riposte. Anyways, I've swapped dampen magicka for blessing of restoration, it stacks with shadow passives to give awesome defense. Combine that with 1 pirate, 1 chudan, defending back bar, healing ward, resto ulti, I'm not dying easily.
Approx: 28.5k sp resist, 27k phys resist fully buffed in 5 light

NightbladeMechanics

@bubbygink I have hit just over 19k Assassin's Wills in BGs using Maiden + Martial Knowledge dual wield. Add 2 Kena, and it would be even higher. Major Breach + Soul Harvest + empower will do that. The damage difference between CP and non-CP is not actually that high considering your red CP partially balance against your opponents' blue CP.

kaithuzar wrote: »

I was a big proponent of heavy since before it was cool, but even I've been rocking the 5 light destro setup these past 2 patches.
How are you heavy guys killing in this tank meta w/o spinner; I'd imagine it's a must.
IMO I don't see how magblades survive in light w/o wizard riposte. Anyways, I've swapped dampen magicka for blessing of restoration, it stacks with shadow passives to give awesome defense. Combine that with 1 pirate, 1 chudan, defending back bar, healing ward, resto ulti, I'm not dying easily.
Approx: 28.5k sp resist, 27k phys resist fully buffed in 5 light

Mirage gives the same minor resistance buffs as Blessing, plus Major Evasion. Do you like Blessing for its heal? Sometimes having a small burst heal like that would be nice.

It takes a little more time to kill tankier opponents, but why is there suddenly some impression that heavy armor deals no damage? Also what is this "tank meta?" It's like every patch is a "tank meta" for some people. I've never seen players more mortal than they are right now.

To answer your question: heal debuffs, fear every 7 seconds, do your best to block or kite back their heavy attacks. No single player will kill the true tank players like Draconis and Hattori, but your standard 30k health heavy armor blocking class will die. Healing debuffs + Befoul are probably the strongest single mechanic in the game, and nightblades have the best cc in the game.

Also, most players aren't in heavy armor right now. So "killing" in general, as you put it, is really quite easy.

Edit: oh, and also don't fall into the mentality that you have to build a bunch of regen to sustain in heavy. Use your non-regen sources of sustain like Siphoning Attacks and potentially Ele Drain, and use your heavy attacks. That heavy attack passive + Tenacity make heavy armor resource management a breeze. The two heavy armor builds that I ran around with during Morrowind used no regen bonuses of any kind. For example, I tried Impreg + Willpower + Undaunted + vMA briefly. I used tristat food, Siphoning Attacks, Argonian, Ele Drain, and a heavy attack every once in a while and sustained perfectly fine in 1v3-4 scenarios.

NightbladeMechanics

NBrookus wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Heavy attack + Soul Harvest ganking:

• don't worry about it. The recent heavy attack nerfs rekt it
• used to be the highest upfront single target burst from stealth in the game

I would add Soul Assault ganking. I positively stink at magblade but tried it out and had nearly 100% success with {buffs} + Heavy Attack into Flame Reach + Soul Assault. Follow up with Impale if not quite dead.

I stopped doing it because it wasn't helping at the only reason I wanted to learn to play magblade: to understand them better because they routinely tear me up.

That's true! I forgot. Stygian + Alchemist gave me a 112k tooltip in stealth back when I was ganking last year...

I liked catching lowbies with it on their horses.

Waffennacht

I love what this thread has become, it may be focused on NBs but there's a ton of valuable info!

What would be the greatest weakness of these NBs?

Autumnhart

Waffennacht wrote: »

I love what this thread has become, it may be focused on NBs but there's a ton of valuable info!

What would be the greatest weakness of these NBs?

Skooma

Lexxypwns

bubbygink wrote: »

To chime in on the heavy v. light debate, I much prefer light in no-CP BGs. In open world world, CP Cyrodiil heavy may be better, but I rarely do that anymore - I mainly just play BGs. I believe light gives better damage, sustain, and utility while it doesn't really even lack in survivability depending on how you play.

In BGs you really aren't hitting 15k bows in any setup, let alone the Durok's + Trans + Valkyn setup mentioned above. I think 11k-12k or so is the hardest non-empowered (so could get up to 13-14k empowered) bow I've hit in a BG and it would be while wearing Spinners with resto ult going and on a squishy targets. If anybody has any videos of hitting harder bows in BGs, especially in heavy I'd love to see it but I'm guessing you'd have to have a full on damage build, like a Spinners + Alch setup or something, which wouldn't allow for any sustain. In short, you can't throw down the crazy burst in no-CP like you can in CP so I find I really need the extra pen and the crit (crit chance is very low in no-CP if you wear heavy) from LA to be able to output damage.

Sustain is clearly better for me in no CP in light armor. I play Altmer and run lich so having the LA regen stacks very well for me. The reduced cost is very helpful to stop you from burning through your magicka so fast, especially with a reduced magicka pool.

As @Lexxypwns suggested, there are just simply way more useful LA utility sets and are just better sets for LA in general. War Maiden, Spinners, BSW, Necro, Overwhelming, Alteration Mastery, Lich, Riposte, Trans, SPC, Worm, etc. I think most groups would prefer a Riposte + Trans Magblade in their group or maybe a SPC + Trans than a Magblade wearing fasallas or duroks. The warden can bring the Major defile via a class skill (and the ones I play with do).

In short, if your group is mainly looking for you to do damage, light makes sense - I typically run with a magplar and mag warden that bring a ton of utility already so I just spec for damage with Skoria + Spinners + Lich, I wouldn't be doing near as much damage in heavy. On the other hand, if your group does need you to have some utility, I think light also makes sense. I've had death matches where I've done pretty close to 2 mil damage while also doing about half a mil healing while barely dying. I just don't see any way at all that can be pulled off in heavy, and I don't see how heavy would help me perform better - I really don't see any reason to run it in BGs. So I guess the tl;dr is that I suggest going light if you want to focus on BGs.

I don't think even Kena would suggest running heavy in BGs

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics did you actually just suggest fasallas or duroks? They've got arguably the worst 2-4 set bonuses of any support sets you can run. Sure you'll be tanky and give good group support but all your other stats aren't great and you lack sustain.

Furthermore, SPC in light is a ton of damage, even though you're correct that wrath partially offsets it on you. You're blatantly ignoring the penetration and crit chance from light in this whole arguement even though the penetration alone is more outright damage than you get from a 5pc.

You say that all the sustain from light isn't needed, but I say that the extra mitigation from heavy isn't needed either. For example, trans+riposte in light is far more damage than duroks+julianos even with wrath proc'ed. Heavy will have better healing, but that is partially offset by the crit chance light armor gains.

For a support focused mageblade there's simply no need to go 5 heavy, you have the tools to survive in light and will provide much more group utility with light armor sets. Sure, you may personally squeeze a better build for yourself out of heavy, but proc'ing trans or SPC(trans+spec+bloodspawn is definitely enough defense, because resto ulti) on your group members is going to make the overall team much stronger.

Yes, I am. Have you run Fasalla's or Durok's before? I've run them in numerous builds for solo and small group play ever since Thieves Guild patch, and they're very good. Consider permanent heal debuffs like indirect damage, impairing enemies' abilities to recover from damage instead of damaging them outright, and even heavy armor Durok's + Trans + Valkyn will deliver 15k+ Assassin's Wills on target while almost halving enemy heals, making your group tankier, and tanking damage for days. Fasalla's is more situational following its nerfs, but you should try Durok's sometime when your group doesn't have a heal debuff handy. I farmed a Defending Durok's resto staff during Morrowind for a reason.

Transmutation, Riposte, and Durok's Bane (replacing Fasalla's following its nerfs) are currently the strongest utility sets, hands down. You'll notice having a defile in your group more than you'll notice the extra damage from SPC unless you're fighting a bunch of sorcs (of course you won't want to double up on debuffs either). You just don't see many people running Durok's because Wardens have Corrupting Pollen.

Keep in mind that you can use 2/3 Arcane jewelry with Durok's. You can fit that into a light armor build.

But regarding light armor passives versus heavy armor passives, both are plenty valuable. They just give you different stats for different priorities. I argue that once you have sufficient sustain, you can never have too much damage or tankiness. Which you decide to pursue is up to you and your priorities. When playing supportive roles, I look at what each armor type gives me, and I choose the longer list:

Light armor:

• magicka sustain
• crit
• pen

Heavy armor:

• max health
• bonus healing
• magicka sustain
• stamina sustain
• resistances
• a little spell damage

Using light armor is perfectly fine if you want to deal more damage, but damage is seldom my main priority when playing support mageblade roles. I'd rather survive the inevitable hard focus better, and the damage in heavy is still strong.

Edit: this is an old video wearing Fasalla's + Willpower. The build would have been better with Trans and Valkyn, and would substitute in Durok's today of course. It's not great damage, but it's still lethal. It's different but still good in different ways!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzx2p1rKLtk

Yeah, I've run them and they unquestionably have *** 2-4 pc and there's no real debating that. Furthermore, wearing Durok's is a wildly inefficient considering warden has spammable aoe major defile that doesn't require someone in your group to use a whole 5pc for it.

As to running skoria on mageblade for small group, just... no. Your group support is much better in Bloodspawn, not to mention bloodspawn is already objectively superior to skoria if you don't need the additional damage, and you don't if you're in light. More resto ultis and bloodspawn+major ward/resolve pushes you to ~23k resists in light.

Furthermore, I'm curious about your Green CP allotment, I'm running basically nothing into arcanist, allowing me to stack nice points into both befoul and shadow ward and still have flawless magika sustain and my stam sustain is such that I can block, dodge roll, CC break and never run out.

5 Trans/SPC/BS is unquestionably a better group setup than 5 trans/5durok's/skoria and that's without having a warden present to supply aoe major defile. As soon as you add in another source of major defile(banner, corrupting spores) then running durok's becomes less efficient and Fasalla's isn't worth wearing unless you're stacking befoul at which point you won't be able to sustain anymore in heavy armor. That's not even mentioning that you should have fasalla's on someone with aoe major defile already to make the most efficient use of the person stacking befoul.

Finally, heavy may give you "more" but its debatable how much of it you actually need and counting constitution as reliable sustain is dubious at best, sure you can sustain in heavy but that's more based on sets and mechanics than constitution bringing much value to the table, the resists are almost completely offset by being able to run a BS instead of Skoria and you'll still have more damage in light. By listing just "crit" you're not expanding on the fact that it improves your burst, pressure, and healing. Also, no heavy armor passive gives you a greater benefit than a 5pc set bonus while light armor certainly does. Then, factor in getting resource poisoned in heavy and the problems trying to sustain against competent players once resource poisons are applied and its a no brainer imo.

I'm not saying your build suggestions don't work in a vacuum, but when you take a broader view of group composition there's no reason that you should have your mageblade as your Durok's or Fasalla's platform when there are much more efficient options. What you don't have is a more efficient option to proc SPC+trans on a build that's can also focus completely on dealing damage.

I actually pointed out that Wardens have phased out Durok's, but do you always play with a Warden friend? I can't tell if you're arguing about theorycrafted premade small group compositions or random BGs. I wasn't talking about either originally. My original post discussed solo build archetypes. Regardless, I consider an on-demand Major Defile mandatory for group play -- more than SPC without a doubt unless you're fighting a bunch of sorcs. A Warden would be ideal, but Fasalla's or Durok's + either a damage set or a utility set have made for some powerful mageblade builds in the past. Talk to ZOS about their spammable aoe Major Defile.

I wrote in Skoria as a random example once and as an example of what I'd use when soloing in the edit. I use Troll King when I play support because I don't aspire to be a resto ult bot. I have always designed my group compositions to survive without having to ult. This means mitigation sets, mostly heavy armor, big hots, Guards, and at least one magplar most of the time. Building this way allows you to use actual offensive ults, which will be more lethal than chaining resto ults. Resto ult, snb ult, and trees are for emergency use only, or when you're greatly outnumbered and need to cover your defense while you go aggressive. I'd take a meteor or dawnbreaker or tether over a resto ulti if I can help it.

My green CP are similar. The regen stars have been underwhelming since their nerfs, and I never really felt like break free cost reduction made a difference for me. I only stack into regen when I'm using Lich (seldom) or want Windrunning (on my sorc and melee mageblade builds). Those builds have to remain mobile and don't block as much because of streak, shields, cloak, and shade, but my destro mageblade builds do. I use a lot of points into Shadow Ward and Befoul there, plus 1% in Siphoner in all of my builds in the hopes that people purge it instead of something more important.

You don't give Constitution enough credit. It's 270 regen equivalent with 5pc heavy. You argued earlier that light armor penetration is more than Spinner 5pc. Well, Constitution is more than Amber Plasm 5pc, and it doesn't shut off if you block or mist form. Argonian + Constitution + Witchmother's + Siphoning Attacks is perfectly fine magikca sustain and excessive stamina sustain for me. If I slot ele drain, then I can run tristat food too. I like mark too much though..

The amount of tankiness that you need is certainly debatable, but when I PvP, I'm always the main focus. I'm leading my groups, my guys rely on me as the backbone, and everyone knows to focus me down hard. Heavy makes worlds of difference for me when we're fighting outnumbered.

I actually have more issues against resource poisons when in light armor. It's easier to take a breather and slip in a couple heavy attacks when you have higher max health, higher resistances, higher healing received, and then the heavy attacks themselves restore more magicka as well. In light armor, I often have to cast more healing wards and defensive fears when poisoned.

I don't see why this is an argument. Heavy and light both clearly have their places in different builds, and heavy certainly has its place in builds relying on heals over time for defense.

I'm not arguing with you man, I 100% respect your opinions, if any of this came across as negative that's not my intent. I'm simply pointing out a specific type of mageblade playstyle. The reality is, as we both already stated, the class is insanely versatile. It is my view that nothing but good can come from constructive discussion about build specifics, it allows new and experienced players alike to see a different playstyle or perspective that you might not have seen otherwise.

However, I do completely stand by light armor currently outperforming heavy in virtually all circumstances. You can cherry pick passives all day but I genuinely believe the combination of sustain and damage light armor gives is too hard to replace on builds that need to get kills.

NightbladeMechanics

Lexxypwns wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

To chime in on the heavy v. light debate, I much prefer light in no-CP BGs. In open world world, CP Cyrodiil heavy may be better, but I rarely do that anymore - I mainly just play BGs. I believe light gives better damage, sustain, and utility while it doesn't really even lack in survivability depending on how you play.

In BGs you really aren't hitting 15k bows in any setup, let alone the Durok's + Trans + Valkyn setup mentioned above. I think 11k-12k or so is the hardest non-empowered (so could get up to 13-14k empowered) bow I've hit in a BG and it would be while wearing Spinners with resto ult going and on a squishy targets. If anybody has any videos of hitting harder bows in BGs, especially in heavy I'd love to see it but I'm guessing you'd have to have a full on damage build, like a Spinners + Alch setup or something, which wouldn't allow for any sustain. In short, you can't throw down the crazy burst in no-CP like you can in CP so I find I really need the extra pen and the crit (crit chance is very low in no-CP if you wear heavy) from LA to be able to output damage.

Sustain is clearly better for me in no CP in light armor. I play Altmer and run lich so having the LA regen stacks very well for me. The reduced cost is very helpful to stop you from burning through your magicka so fast, especially with a reduced magicka pool.

As @Lexxypwns suggested, there are just simply way more useful LA utility sets and are just better sets for LA in general. War Maiden, Spinners, BSW, Necro, Overwhelming, Alteration Mastery, Lich, Riposte, Trans, SPC, Worm, etc. I think most groups would prefer a Riposte + Trans Magblade in their group or maybe a SPC + Trans than a Magblade wearing fasallas or duroks. The warden can bring the Major defile via a class skill (and the ones I play with do).

In short, if your group is mainly looking for you to do damage, light makes sense - I typically run with a magplar and mag warden that bring a ton of utility already so I just spec for damage with Skoria + Spinners + Lich, I wouldn't be doing near as much damage in heavy. On the other hand, if your group does need you to have some utility, I think light also makes sense. I've had death matches where I've done pretty close to 2 mil damage while also doing about half a mil healing while barely dying. I just don't see any way at all that can be pulled off in heavy, and I don't see how heavy would help me perform better - I really don't see any reason to run it in BGs. So I guess the tl;dr is that I suggest going light if you want to focus on BGs.

I don't think even Kena would suggest running heavy in BGs

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics did you actually just suggest fasallas or duroks? They've got arguably the worst 2-4 set bonuses of any support sets you can run. Sure you'll be tanky and give good group support but all your other stats aren't great and you lack sustain.

Furthermore, SPC in light is a ton of damage, even though you're correct that wrath partially offsets it on you. You're blatantly ignoring the penetration and crit chance from light in this whole arguement even though the penetration alone is more outright damage than you get from a 5pc.

You say that all the sustain from light isn't needed, but I say that the extra mitigation from heavy isn't needed either. For example, trans+riposte in light is far more damage than duroks+julianos even with wrath proc'ed. Heavy will have better healing, but that is partially offset by the crit chance light armor gains.

For a support focused mageblade there's simply no need to go 5 heavy, you have the tools to survive in light and will provide much more group utility with light armor sets. Sure, you may personally squeeze a better build for yourself out of heavy, but proc'ing trans or SPC(trans+spec+bloodspawn is definitely enough defense, because resto ulti) on your group members is going to make the overall team much stronger.

Yes, I am. Have you run Fasalla's or Durok's before? I've run them in numerous builds for solo and small group play ever since Thieves Guild patch, and they're very good. Consider permanent heal debuffs like indirect damage, impairing enemies' abilities to recover from damage instead of damaging them outright, and even heavy armor Durok's + Trans + Valkyn will deliver 15k+ Assassin's Wills on target while almost halving enemy heals, making your group tankier, and tanking damage for days. Fasalla's is more situational following its nerfs, but you should try Durok's sometime when your group doesn't have a heal debuff handy. I farmed a Defending Durok's resto staff during Morrowind for a reason.

Transmutation, Riposte, and Durok's Bane (replacing Fasalla's following its nerfs) are currently the strongest utility sets, hands down. You'll notice having a defile in your group more than you'll notice the extra damage from SPC unless you're fighting a bunch of sorcs (of course you won't want to double up on debuffs either). You just don't see many people running Durok's because Wardens have Corrupting Pollen.

Keep in mind that you can use 2/3 Arcane jewelry with Durok's. You can fit that into a light armor build.

But regarding light armor passives versus heavy armor passives, both are plenty valuable. They just give you different stats for different priorities. I argue that once you have sufficient sustain, you can never have too much damage or tankiness. Which you decide to pursue is up to you and your priorities. When playing supportive roles, I look at what each armor type gives me, and I choose the longer list:

Light armor:

• magicka sustain
• crit
• pen

Heavy armor:

• max health
• bonus healing
• magicka sustain
• stamina sustain
• resistances
• a little spell damage

Using light armor is perfectly fine if you want to deal more damage, but damage is seldom my main priority when playing support mageblade roles. I'd rather survive the inevitable hard focus better, and the damage in heavy is still strong.

Edit: this is an old video wearing Fasalla's + Willpower. The build would have been better with Trans and Valkyn, and would substitute in Durok's today of course. It's not great damage, but it's still lethal. It's different but still good in different ways!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzx2p1rKLtk

Yeah, I've run them and they unquestionably have *** 2-4 pc and there's no real debating that. Furthermore, wearing Durok's is a wildly inefficient considering warden has spammable aoe major defile that doesn't require someone in your group to use a whole 5pc for it.

As to running skoria on mageblade for small group, just... no. Your group support is much better in Bloodspawn, not to mention bloodspawn is already objectively superior to skoria if you don't need the additional damage, and you don't if you're in light. More resto ultis and bloodspawn+major ward/resolve pushes you to ~23k resists in light.

Furthermore, I'm curious about your Green CP allotment, I'm running basically nothing into arcanist, allowing me to stack nice points into both befoul and shadow ward and still have flawless magika sustain and my stam sustain is such that I can block, dodge roll, CC break and never run out.

5 Trans/SPC/BS is unquestionably a better group setup than 5 trans/5durok's/skoria and that's without having a warden present to supply aoe major defile. As soon as you add in another source of major defile(banner, corrupting spores) then running durok's becomes less efficient and Fasalla's isn't worth wearing unless you're stacking befoul at which point you won't be able to sustain anymore in heavy armor. That's not even mentioning that you should have fasalla's on someone with aoe major defile already to make the most efficient use of the person stacking befoul.

Finally, heavy may give you "more" but its debatable how much of it you actually need and counting constitution as reliable sustain is dubious at best, sure you can sustain in heavy but that's more based on sets and mechanics than constitution bringing much value to the table, the resists are almost completely offset by being able to run a BS instead of Skoria and you'll still have more damage in light. By listing just "crit" you're not expanding on the fact that it improves your burst, pressure, and healing. Also, no heavy armor passive gives you a greater benefit than a 5pc set bonus while light armor certainly does. Then, factor in getting resource poisoned in heavy and the problems trying to sustain against competent players once resource poisons are applied and its a no brainer imo.

I'm not saying your build suggestions don't work in a vacuum, but when you take a broader view of group composition there's no reason that you should have your mageblade as your Durok's or Fasalla's platform when there are much more efficient options. What you don't have is a more efficient option to proc SPC+trans on a build that's can also focus completely on dealing damage.

I actually pointed out that Wardens have phased out Durok's, but do you always play with a Warden friend? I can't tell if you're arguing about theorycrafted premade small group compositions or random BGs. I wasn't talking about either originally. My original post discussed solo build archetypes. Regardless, I consider an on-demand Major Defile mandatory for group play -- more than SPC without a doubt unless you're fighting a bunch of sorcs. A Warden would be ideal, but Fasalla's or Durok's + either a damage set or a utility set have made for some powerful mageblade builds in the past. Talk to ZOS about their spammable aoe Major Defile.

I wrote in Skoria as a random example once and as an example of what I'd use when soloing in the edit. I use Troll King when I play support because I don't aspire to be a resto ult bot. I have always designed my group compositions to survive without having to ult. This means mitigation sets, mostly heavy armor, big hots, Guards, and at least one magplar most of the time. Building this way allows you to use actual offensive ults, which will be more lethal than chaining resto ults. Resto ult, snb ult, and trees are for emergency use only, or when you're greatly outnumbered and need to cover your defense while you go aggressive. I'd take a meteor or dawnbreaker or tether over a resto ulti if I can help it.

My green CP are similar. The regen stars have been underwhelming since their nerfs, and I never really felt like break free cost reduction made a difference for me. I only stack into regen when I'm using Lich (seldom) or want Windrunning (on my sorc and melee mageblade builds). Those builds have to remain mobile and don't block as much because of streak, shields, cloak, and shade, but my destro mageblade builds do. I use a lot of points into Shadow Ward and Befoul there, plus 1% in Siphoner in all of my builds in the hopes that people purge it instead of something more important.

You don't give Constitution enough credit. It's 270 regen equivalent with 5pc heavy. You argued earlier that light armor penetration is more than Spinner 5pc. Well, Constitution is more than Amber Plasm 5pc, and it doesn't shut off if you block or mist form. Argonian + Constitution + Witchmother's + Siphoning Attacks is perfectly fine magikca sustain and excessive stamina sustain for me. If I slot ele drain, then I can run tristat food too. I like mark too much though..

The amount of tankiness that you need is certainly debatable, but when I PvP, I'm always the main focus. I'm leading my groups, my guys rely on me as the backbone, and everyone knows to focus me down hard. Heavy makes worlds of difference for me when we're fighting outnumbered.

I actually have more issues against resource poisons when in light armor. It's easier to take a breather and slip in a couple heavy attacks when you have higher max health, higher resistances, higher healing received, and then the heavy attacks themselves restore more magicka as well. In light armor, I often have to cast more healing wards and defensive fears when poisoned.

I don't see why this is an argument. Heavy and light both clearly have their places in different builds, and heavy certainly has its place in builds relying on heals over time for defense.

I'm not arguing with you man, I 100% respect your opinions, if any of this came across as negative that's not my intent. I'm simply pointing out a specific type of mageblade playstyle. The reality is, as we both already stated, the class is insanely versatile. It is my view that nothing but good can come from constructive discussion about build specifics, it allows new and experienced players alike to see a different playstyle or perspective that you might not have seen otherwise.

However, I do completely stand by light armor currently outperforming heavy in virtually all circumstances. You can cherry pick passives all day but I genuinely believe the combination of sustain and damage light armor gives is too hard to replace on builds that need to get kills.

If you need to be a damage source and get kills to carry your team, then light is the way to go 100%.

NBrookus

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Heavy attack + Soul Harvest ganking:

• don't worry about it. The recent heavy attack nerfs rekt it
• used to be the highest upfront single target burst from stealth in the game

I would add Soul Assault ganking. I positively stink at magblade but tried it out and had nearly 100% success with {buffs} + Heavy Attack into Flame Reach + Soul Assault. Follow up with Impale if not quite dead.

I stopped doing it because it wasn't helping at the only reason I wanted to learn to play magblade: to understand them better because they routinely tear me up.

That's true! I forgot. Stygian + Alchemist gave me a 112k tooltip in stealth back when I was ganking last year...

I liked catching lowbies with it on their horses.

Haha you got me one night while I was typing to one of your own group mates and you weren't even on a gank build. I was very annoyed; even Sribes had a harder time ganking my DK.

Using a 100k tooltip for horse ganks is kinda overkill, don't you think?

Waffennacht

NBrookus wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Heavy attack + Soul Harvest ganking:

• don't worry about it. The recent heavy attack nerfs rekt it
• used to be the highest upfront single target burst from stealth in the game

I would add Soul Assault ganking. I positively stink at magblade but tried it out and had nearly 100% success with {buffs} + Heavy Attack into Flame Reach + Soul Assault. Follow up with Impale if not quite dead.

I stopped doing it because it wasn't helping at the only reason I wanted to learn to play magblade: to understand them better because they routinely tear me up.

That's true! I forgot. Stygian + Alchemist gave me a 112k tooltip in stealth back when I was ganking last year...

I liked catching lowbies with it on their horses.

Haha you got me one night while I was typing to one of your own group mates and you weren't even on a gank build. I was very annoyed; even Sribes had a harder time ganking my DK.

Using a 100k tooltip for horse ganks is kinda overkill, don't you think?

No, there is no such thing as overkill. Nuke em!

Soft CC, hard CC, burst, hot, mobility and sustain...

There's gotta be a weakness that I can exploit... All reflectable abilities pretty much right? Maybe the key is there