Organized Raids vs Zergs

Adamus

This will hopefully be a discussion about how to improve the PvP community in Cyrodiil since we're unable to improve the loading screens, but as most things Cyrodiil the salt miners will come to play.

I want to address the terms "Zerg" and "Raid" and define them as I've come to know them.

Zerg:
A large gathering of unfamiliar players that are both grouped and ungrouped using overwhelming numbers to kill everything in it's path. Often unable to communicate, they use visual keys to identify where the group is going.

Raid:
A group of 12-24 familiar players (often members of a guild) grouped up working together to achieve specific goals. Often led by a single individual (aka "Crown") who gives out calls where to go and when to use certain skills. Similar to small groups they comprise of healers and DPS but can also include dynamic support and tank roles depending on the current meta and raid style. They can often be recognized by their tabards. Groups of 12 often are referred to as half raids where as smaller groups are just referred to as a small groups.

That is all, the rest is just a bit of a rant on my part.

I bring this up because I've noticed a drop off of raids and a return to Zerging in Cyrodiil, as well as a belief that players that run in Raids deserve a bit more respect for their skill and efforts. The term zergling is toxic and demeaning for these players and it only speaks to the ignorance of the person using the term when addressing someone from an organized raid. Raids are not pick up groups, they have spent a good amount of time getting the right gear, learning to correct skill rotation, perfecting their game style and doing it over and over and over and over again each time ZoS makes changes. They stay with crown not to remain "safe" but because they are working together as a unit to achieve specific goals like taking a keep, wiping a zerg, or going head to head with another raid. The game play of going head to head with another Raid is often what Organized Raids are looking for. Raid game styles vary from faction, guild, size and even by the individuals that they consist of. The victories that an organized raid celebrate are often farming a faction for an extended period of time, wiping zergs 3 times their size, taking a well defended keep, confronting another respect Organized Raid and even Defending a position from overwhelming odds. Defending a keep from a dual full faction assault and seeing players yell out in chat yell "Bring more factions next time!" as they give up their assaults, that's what an Organized Raid can achieve.

I've been streaming my gameplay for over a year now, partly for my own interests but also to provide a window into how a Raid functions. Unlike other ESO streams, I'm on a 5 min delay as to avoid giving logistical info to our competitors, and by competitors I mean other Raids. And although my inability to cater to the instant gratification desired by the streaming crowd, my stream is often watched by players who are looking to improve their game style, which in turn challenges us to adapt and has created a back an forth. I've watched the streams of other players to get an idea of what they're doing as I tend to run into them every now and then. There is a large market in streaming for solo players and while balance changes have made it impossible to 1vX some players have been able to set up solid gank builds and have been able to 1vX a little, even if it's only against newer low CP players. I applaud these players for the effort they put in, it's great for the community to have many play styles and this is greatly needed. For the small group players, even though you've grown in size and are approaching Half Raid size, you still stay true to your play style farming resources until a zerg or raid flushes you out, I often will seek you out while waiting for a raid to form as your game play is similar to that of a full raid. This leads me to the next paragraph.

For those solo players who now run in groups but still talk like their solo, especially the popular ones with tons of fan boys. Look around you, you're probably and most likely in a zerg. I ran into one of these streamers one night with a small to half raid. I later compared streams and noticed the illusion they were presenting, and it was created by the faction icons above the players, I tend to leave to leave them off because it makes it easier to see who's an enemy from a distance but when I lined my stream up with theirs and noticed the perception they were creating with their small group, what seemed like a few solo players attacking a larger force was actually our small raid verse their zerg. Now I understand that players enjoy playing along with their favorite streamer, and I get it, it's fun to be part of a community of players that play regularly and can chat about their gameplay, ESO and other issues we all relate to. In fact there are many similarities to this and a Raid, except a Raid tends to be a group of guildies that are in one group. I bring this up because this particular streamer has been very toxic towards the Organized Raid community especially when after their zerg buffer and small group are wiped by a small/half raid. Perhaps they should full "zerg" and set up an organized raid, perhaps even provide what I won't, a live (no time delay) stream of an organized Raid.

In short, there are many play styles in Cyrodiil, there are solo players, there are small groups, there are Zergs, and there are Organized Raids. Choose yours wisely but know the differances.

Thelon

did the mystery streamer expose you?

Adamus

@Thelon Quite the opposite.

Vilestride

Rapid and purge support builds? Gross
Guard spec DK? don't leave the 1vX house without one.

OT good definitions. Though sadly the people who don't already make the distinction, will likely continue to not.

usmcjdking

Thelon wrote: »

did the mystery streamer expose you?

show me where the 1vxer touched you

NightbladeMechanics

I like my definition better.

Zerg: any group larger than is necessary to achieve its objective.

If your raid runs me over, you're a zerg. I don't care how organized you are.

And organized raids are diminishing because ZOS nerfed their tools for fighting zergs and gave them the same boring "pop 5 pbaoe ults and run straight at them" meta for too long.

TBois

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I like my definition better.

Zerg: any group larger than is necessary to achieve its objective.

If your raid runs me over, you're a zerg. I don't care how organized you are.

And organized raids are diminishing because ZOS nerfed their tools for fighting zergs and gave them the same boring "pop 5 pbaoe ults and run straight at them" meta for too long.

This! All the large organized guilds I've been in have died because of either lag or the boring way this game's group combat has evolved. I don't run in much large groups anymore because... it's *** boring.

azfardajiwang

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I like my definition better.

Zerg: any group larger than is necessary to achieve its objective.

If your raid runs me over, you're a zerg. I don't care how organized you are.

And organized raids are diminishing because ZOS nerfed their tools for fighting zergs and gave them the same boring "pop 5 pbaoe ults and run straight at them" meta for too long.

What if.. You decide to be a 1vxer and tried to 1vx a raid when they weren't attacking you and then got rolled down

Vilestride

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I like my definition better.

Zerg: any group larger than is necessary to achieve its objective.

If your raid runs me over, you're a zerg. I don't care how organized you are.

Pretty much this. Good definition.

NightbladeMechanics

azfardajiwang wrote: »

show previous quotes

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I like my definition better.

Zerg: any group larger than is necessary to achieve its objective.

If your raid runs me over, you're a zerg. I don't care how organized you are.

And organized raids are diminishing because ZOS nerfed their tools for fighting zergs and gave them the same boring "pop 5 pbaoe ults and run straight at them" meta for too long.

What if.. You decide to be a 1vxer and tried to 1vx a raid when they weren't attacking you and then got rolled down

Then they zerged you, but you asked for it and deserved it. Part of being a skilled solo player is recognizing when and how to pick fights, and how to hover around larger engagements without becoming the Target of attention of a group larger than you can handle.

That's why open world Cyrodiil is more challenging than, say, dueling or BGs or house RP.

Edit: This response is also to clarify that not all zerging is bad or intentional. Sometimes you zerg people by accident, and sometimes you zerg people because they're bad and got in your way. You can't really be faulted for zerging them, but zerging happens as part of the chaos of Cyrodiil. But then sometimes there are those people who chase you halfway from Bruma to Glademist and back to run you over... They are bad and should feel bad.

Anazasi

So what would the EP 20 man group that roams the south on vivec NA PC taking AD resources be? Organized-Stupid? Or are they just organized AP farmers? Im waiting to see them start using that /follow train bot program. Because i really think these guys are just farming AP to sell. This is really hilarious and has been discussed several times amongst other AD raid leads. I can't even call it irritating because it's not. But I can assure those silly EP that they are doing it wrong. I will show you how to do it soon. Just waiting for the right moment in the campaign cycle to start my trickery.

NBrookus

Anazasi wrote: »

So what would the EP 20 man group that roams the south on vivec NA PC taking AD resources be? Organized-Stupid? Or are they just organized AP farmers? Im waiting to see them start using that /follow train bot program. Because i really think these guys are just farming AP to sell. This is really hilarious and has been discussed several times amongst other AD raid leads. I can't even call it irritating because it's not. But I can assure those silly EP that they are doing it wrong. I will show you how to do it soon. Just waiting for the right moment in the campaign cycle to start my trickery.

What it is:
"type K*** for emp AP grind group"

Anazasi

NBrookus wrote: »

show previous quotes

Anazasi wrote: »

So what would the EP 20 man group that roams the south on vivec NA PC taking AD resources be? Organized-Stupid? Or are they just organized AP farmers? Im waiting to see them start using that /follow train bot program. Because i really think these guys are just farming AP to sell. This is really hilarious and has been discussed several times amongst other AD raid leads. I can't even call it irritating because it's not. But I can assure those silly EP that they are doing it wrong. I will show you how to do it soon. Just waiting for the right moment in the campaign cycle to start my trickery.

What it is:
"type K*** for emp AP grind group"

ROFL for real.....Ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaahahahahaahahaaahhahahahahaha

Stratforge

BertMoTron wrote: »

This will hopefully be a discussion about how to improve the PvP community in Cyrodiil since we're unable to improve the loading screens, but as most things Cyrodiil the salt miners will come to play.

I want to address the terms "Zerg" and "Raid" and define them as I've come to know them.
...
Choose yours wisely but know the differances.

Who could possibly care about the difference? Getting zerged down by a zerg or zerged down by a "raid" feel the exact same.

SugaComa

This is why I think 4 hour campaigns would be great ... You could challenge 2 other guilds meet up at a set time n all play the map to win or lose in a 4 hours period ... Raid groups are vastly different from zergs ... I'm glad others can see that too

Mazbt

I enjoy large group play if it's fighting other large groups (I don't see it as zerging in that case) as opposed to chasing and zerging down small numbers for no reason other than just being stupid.

frozywozy

Anazasi wrote: »

So what would the EP 20 man group that roams the south on vivec NA PC taking AD resources be? Organized-Stupid? Or are they just organized AP farmers? Im waiting to see them start using that /follow train bot program. Because i really think these guys are just farming AP to sell. This is really hilarious and has been discussed several times amongst other AD raid leads. I can't even call it irritating because it's not. But I can assure those silly EP that they are doing it wrong. I will show you how to do it soon. Just waiting for the right moment in the campaign cycle to start my trickery.

Say thank you to the PvP team for increasing the value of offensive ticks!

Yesterday I withnessed that same EP group taking Bloodmayne. A few minutes later, an AD raid arrives and start sieging from the mine side. The full 24men EP raid leaves the keep without a fight and go straight to Faregyl to repeat the same story. As AD starts sieging Faregyl, I see the same raid dropping off the wall to go back to ressources capping.

I have no idea why the offensive ticks were increased that much. Nowadays, it takes everything to get people to ride back to keeps to defend. Most people are too lazy to ride back and they would rather wait until a guild flag the keep to ride back for the offensive tick.

Definitely not what the PvP team wanted to accomplish, I'm pretty sure.

IxSTALKERxI

I've been complaining about the value of O'ticks for awhile now... They need a 50% nerf imo.

Soul_Demon

BertMoTron wrote: »

This will hopefully be a discussion about how to improve the PvP community in Cyrodiil since we're unable to improve the loading screens, but as most things Cyrodiil the salt miners will come to play.

I want to address the terms "Zerg" and "Raid" and define them as I've come to know them.

Zerg:
A large gathering of unfamiliar players that are both grouped and ungrouped using overwhelming numbers to kill everything in it's path. Often unable to communicate, they use visual keys to identify where the group is going.

Raid:
A group of 12-24 familiar players (often members of a guild) grouped up working together to achieve specific goals. Often led by a single individual (aka "Crown") who gives out calls where to go and when to use certain skills. Similar to small groups they comprise of healers and DPS but can also include dynamic support and tank roles depending on the current meta and raid style. They can often be recognized by their tabards. Groups of 12 often are referred to as half raids where as smaller groups are just referred to as a small groups.

That is all, the rest is just a bit of a rant on my part.

I bring this up because I've noticed a drop off of raids and a return to Zerging in Cyrodiil, as well as a belief that players that run in Raids deserve a bit more respect for their skill and efforts. The term zergling is toxic and demeaning for these players and it only speaks to the ignorance of the person using the term when addressing someone from an organized raid. Raids are not pick up groups, they have spent a good amount of time getting the right gear, learning to correct skill rotation, perfecting their game style and doing it over and over and over and over again each time ZoS makes changes. They stay with crown not to remain "safe" but because they are working together as a unit to achieve specific goals like taking a keep, wiping a zerg, or going head to head with another raid. The game play of going head to head with another Raid is often what Organized Raids are looking for. Raid game styles vary from faction, guild, size and even by the individuals that they consist of. The victories that an organized raid celebrate are often farming a faction for an extended period of time, wiping zergs 3 times their size, taking a well defended keep, confronting another respect Organized Raid and even Defending a position from overwhelming odds. Defending a keep from a dual full faction assault and seeing players yell out in chat yell "Bring more factions next time!" as they give up their assaults, that's what an Organized Raid can achieve.

I've been streaming my gameplay for over a year now, partly for my own interests but also to provide a window into how a Raid functions. Unlike other ESO streams, I'm on a 5 min delay as to avoid giving logistical info to our competitors, and by competitors I mean other Raids. And although my inability to cater to the instant gratification desired by the streaming crowd, my stream is often watched by players who are looking to improve their game style, which in turn challenges us to adapt and has created a back an forth. I've watched the streams of other players to get an idea of what they're doing as I tend to run into them every now and then. There is a large market in streaming for solo players and while balance changes have made it impossible to 1vX some players have been able to set up solid gank builds and have been able to 1vX a little, even if it's only against newer low CP players. I applaud these players for the effort they put in, it's great for the community to have many play styles and this is greatly needed. For the small group players, even though you've grown in size and are approaching Half Raid size, you still stay true to your play style farming resources until a zerg or raid flushes you out, I often will seek you out while waiting for a raid to form as your game play is similar to that of a full raid. This leads me to the next paragraph.

For those solo players who now run in groups but still talk like their solo, especially the popular ones with tons of fan boys. Look around you, you're probably and most likely in a zerg. I ran into one of these streamers one night with a small to half raid. I later compared streams and noticed the illusion they were presenting, and it was created by the faction icons above the players, I tend to leave to leave them off because it makes it easier to see who's an enemy from a distance but when I lined my stream up with theirs and noticed the perception they were creating with their small group, what seemed like a few solo players attacking a larger force was actually our small raid verse their zerg. Now I understand that players enjoy playing along with their favorite streamer, and I get it, it's fun to be part of a community of players that play regularly and can chat about their gameplay, ESO and other issues we all relate to. In fact there are many similarities to this and a Raid, except a Raid tends to be a group of guildies that are in one group. I bring this up because this particular streamer has been very toxic towards the Organized Raid community especially when after their zerg buffer and small group are wiped by a small/half raid. Perhaps they should full "zerg" and set up an organized raid, perhaps even provide what I won't, a live (no time delay) stream of an organized Raid.

In short, there are many play styles in Cyrodiil, there are solo players, there are small groups, there are Zergs, and there are Organized Raids. Choose yours wisely but know the differances.

(additional info to offer a slightly different perspective)

Raid:
A group of 12-24 familiar players (often members of a guild) grouped up working together to achieve specific goals. Often led by a single individual (aka "Crown") who gives out calls to optimize the chances of the group to succeed in their endeavors. These groups recruit new PvP players and train them up from the beginning often brining new players to more competitive PvP play. Differing from small groups, they are comprised of two main styles.....canned builds or specifically tailored builds for each individual. They can often be recognized by their tabards. Groups of 12 often are referred to as half raids where as smaller groups are just referred to as a small groups.

Just a quick note on the post- without actual zergs the farm groups, small man LOS and gankers are irrelevant here in cyro and don't function. The idea of one server with max limit on grouping of 4 would be a nightmare for these groups as everyone would sit in stealth or run around resources in circles trying to bait new players into chasing them so they can be mowed down. These groups take experienced players only, so there would be no baiting of anyone on that server and since no one would push map there would not be anything to do, at all. They NEED zergs as much as they cry otherwise as without them they have absolutely nothing to do. This is different from organized small mans who do push for the faction and push the map, very different.

Now, this is what they wont admit, but they typically wipe players who trickle in outnumbered and outclassed, whereas when an organized group comes in and does the same back to them- that group is "zerging" them down with trample damage. Same thing they have been doing to new players or outnumbered groups the whole time, but in their minds "different" because it was them doing it to others and therefore acceptable and honorable based on their "skilled" play. But someone else doing it is Defcon 4 level of bad gameplay and everything wrong with game. Limit groups! Change Skills! Increase Skill Cost for Groups, reduce AP for Groups (but not our small man farm/LOS group, buff the stuff we use).

Do not bother to point this out as those groups will pretend its different and refuse to see the irony in the behaviors. As you pointed out, often some streamers misrepresent how many they are fighting with and odds they face as to add drama to the stream.....but keep in mind they have people who are paying, to by virtue of knowing someone else who plays, pretend they are playing the game together. They need money from these people so it makes sense they take creative license to add drama. Those paying subscribers NEED to believe they are playing with the streamer and need those play by play by the streamers to know what to think and need to be told what they "see" on the stream to keep paying money. Accuracy is not really entertaining enough to take peoples money and the targeted solo players who pay them need that false reality to be engaged in the game. So- trampledamage from "zergs" bad.....our play good. We are the skilled, they are mindless idiots mashing buttons.

Loved the post, great insight from someone else and their perspective.

Earthewen

Let's face it. The organized raid is a nightmare to the people who play smaller, four-man groups. I think that may be why they scream for nerfing the organized raids and large groups. They are a minority of very loud, prolific posters who scream louder than the people who like organized raiding in a game that was designed for it. It seems ZOS thinks that those few represent the rest of us as well. All the while, organized raids are demonized and disparaged as bad game play.

Anrose

frozywozy wrote: »

show previous quotes

Anazasi wrote: »

So what would the EP 20 man group that roams the south on vivec NA PC taking AD resources be? Organized-Stupid? Or are they just organized AP farmers? Im waiting to see them start using that /follow train bot program. Because i really think these guys are just farming AP to sell. This is really hilarious and has been discussed several times amongst other AD raid leads. I can't even call it irritating because it's not. But I can assure those silly EP that they are doing it wrong. I will show you how to do it soon. Just waiting for the right moment in the campaign cycle to start my trickery.

Say thank you to the PvP team for increasing the value of offensive ticks!

Yesterday I withnessed that same EP group taking Bloodmayne. A few minutes later, an AD raid arrives and start sieging from the mine side. The full 24men EP raid leaves the keep without a fight and go straight to Faregyl to repeat the same story. As AD starts sieging Faregyl, I see the same raid dropping off the wall to go back to ressources capping.

I have no idea why the offensive ticks were increased that much. Nowadays, it takes everything to get people to ride back to keeps to defend. Most people are too lazy to ride back and they would rather wait until a guild flag the keep to ride back for the offensive tick.

Definitely not what the PvP team wanted to accomplish, I'm pretty sure.

This group is a problem all its own, but it's sad to see such a deemphasis placed on fighting players in the PvP area. I believe the AP gains need to be adjusted to incentivize defending and capturing defended objectives.

Perhaps values of 3.5k for a keep and 750 for a resource would be better. Enough that it makes capturing worth it, but so little that it makes PvDoor not worth it.

I wonder if it would possible for enemy deaths (not ALL deaths as it currently stands) to yield more AP for the ticks to the winning faction. Defenders would defend more furiously, and attackers would push harder to kill said defenders.... in theory.

MipMip

A big thank you to the OP for saying this! I always find it baffling how people can use the term 'zerg' equally for things that are in many ways the contrary of each other:
- non-organized groups of players who are not grouped, mostly do not know each other and mostly do not talk to each other
- organized groups that are typically members of a guild, follow a lead, have a role distribution and tactics, etc...

Thanks also @Earthewen for pointing out that the game was designed for organized raiding (among other, I would say) - which is one important reason why I started to play it.

Rickter

"Organized" raid group:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcH7cSvpWnQ

Biro123

Earthewen wrote: »

Let's face it. The organized raid is a nightmare to the people who play smaller, four-man groups. I think that may be why they scream for nerfing the organized raids and large groups. They are a minority of very loud, prolific posters who scream louder than the people who like organized raiding in a game that was designed for it. It seems ZOS thinks that those few represent the rest of us as well. All the while, organized raids are demonized and disparaged as bad game play.

And those organised 4-man groups are a nightmare to soloers.. (who oddly enough are ok around these raids since they know its pretty rare that a whole raid will make a detour to get one guy on his own when there are bigger AP-bags around.)

montiferus

Rickter wrote: »

"Organized" raid group:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcH7cSvpWnQ

Lol. That was hilarious.

Ghostbane

Anazasi wrote: »

So what would the EP 20 man group that roams the south on vivec NA PC taking AD resources be? Organized-Stupid? Or are they just organized AP farmers? Im waiting to see them start using that /follow train bot program. Because i really think these guys are just farming AP to sell. This is really hilarious and has been discussed several times amongst other AD raid leads. I can't even call it irritating because it's not. But I can assure those silly EP that they are doing it wrong. I will show you how to do it soon. Just waiting for the right moment in the campaign cycle to start my trickery.

That, is for anyone considering trying their hand at bombing on AD. You will not get any better test conditions.

Joy_Division

NBrookus wrote: »

show previous quotes

Anazasi wrote: »

So what would the EP 20 man group that roams the south on vivec NA PC taking AD resources be? Organized-Stupid? Or are they just organized AP farmers? Im waiting to see them start using that /follow train bot program. Because i really think these guys are just farming AP to sell. This is really hilarious and has been discussed several times amongst other AD raid leads. I can't even call it irritating because it's not. But I can assure those silly EP that they are doing it wrong. I will show you how to do it soon. Just waiting for the right moment in the campaign cycle to start my trickery.

What it is:
"type K*** for emp AP grind group"

When I saw that, I though it was in jest. Apparently they are serious.

If it's any consolation to the OP, I've never seen zone chat drama on the EP side as divisive as it is now. I'm not just saying that I've played on DC and AD and while EP may have gotten heated in the past, it never approach the level of consistent toxicity, especially when compared to what DC was a long time ago.

Some people who want to be emperor forget that it takes the support of a faction to get it

caeliusstarbreaker

Zerg= Derogatory(|X|+1) where X is number of perceived bad players.

Absolute value allows for fall dmg.

montiferus

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Just a quick note on the post- without actual zergs the farm groups, small man LOS and gankers are irrelevant here in cyro and don't function. The idea of one server with max limit on grouping of 4 would be a nightmare for these groups as everyone would sit in stealth or run around resources in circles trying to bait new players into chasing them so they can be mowed down. These groups take experienced players only, so there would be no baiting of anyone on that server and since no one would push map there would not be anything to do, at all. They NEED zergs as much as they cry otherwise as without them they have absolutely nothing to do. This is different from organized small mans who do push for the faction and push the map, very different.

Lol. Do you really believe this?

Soul_Demon wrote: »

We are the skilled, they are mindless idiots mashing buttons.

I wouldn't say mindless idiots but if you think for a second playing small scale isn't harder than "organized raids" you are out of your mind.

NightbladeMechanics

Earthewen wrote: »

Let's face it. The organized raid is a nightmare to the people who play smaller, four-man groups. I think that may be why they scream for nerfing the organized raids and large groups. They are a minority of very loud, prolific posters who scream louder than the people who like organized raiding in a game that was designed for it. It seems ZOS thinks that those few represent the rest of us as well. All the while, organized raids are demonized and disparaged as bad game play.

I don't think we're playing the same game. lol

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Zerg= Derogatory(|X|+1) where X is number of perceived bad players.

Absolute value allows for fall dmg.

Kram8ion

There practically both the same there just seems to be a negative connotation about zergs and usually are cries from the dead afterwards but everyone does it and obviously loves it me included