Next time you scream elitist.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Lexynide wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

[snip]

Does Dro-m'Athra Skin and Emperor's Regalia ring a bell for you? No? Then you should work on your checking skills.

Both are subjectively ugly and objectively useless. Unfortunately, you can't find anything better to prove your point that the game is competitive by design... because it isn't.

Lexynide wrote: »

Sure, that's exactly why there are all those unique statues, achievements, costume, titles and polymorphs given to those who complete hardest trials in the game on veteran mode.

Ditto. Objectively useless. Pure cosmetics, like crown store items.

Lexynide wrote: »

But when you're in a group it's generally nice to show that you respect other people. And respect means at least trying to be a little competitive, and not deliberately using bad gear/skills and making everyone suffer.

You seem to be a little bit carried away. Let's stick to the original topic of this thread :
Not slotting ele drain does not equal to "deliberately using bad gear/skills and making everyone suffer".

And respect in my book is not using group finder and impose competitive criteria upon randoms in a game that is not designed to be played competitively.
Why not stick to your like-minded friends ?
[edited to remove quote]

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Ideally, I wish there was a way for those two groups to play together, but in practice and after three years "experience" in this game, I've come to the conclusion that it's not possible. The game population is, as a matter of fact, split between players who want to be good, be the best they can, and people who enjoy playing around with fun builds, scenery and flower-picking. And those two groups should not mix. Mixing them in groups doesn't work, mixing them in guilds doesn't work. Playing together doesn't work.

I don't agree with this. Perhaps I'm being idealistic but I don't think this is how it is or how it should be at least. Everyone is different and free to enjoy different things, but the real split here isn't casual vs elitist, it's just...let's call it sensible people and non sensible. Sensible people undertstand that [.../...]...Non sensible people are those that [.../...]

Yes, you are being idealistic... Just look at this thread ! And all the hate, despise and judgemental attitudes it contains. Including your conclusion to classify people who share your point of view as "sensible" and the rest of them as "non-sensible". And ultimately blame it on ZOS.

At this point, all I can do is emphasize that the reality of pugging ingame is nowhere near the image that's reflected on these forums, let alone in this thread. Most PUGs are just fine and nice, of course things may take a little bit longer but all in all they get done, all in good fun. Because most people in PUGs have a BOTH SENSIBLE AND SENSITIVE attitude : they take things and people as they are, deal with it, don't judge / expect / demand.

This is not about my point of view. I mean, yes it is - my point of view being that when you're engaging in a team activity, YOU MUST TAKE YOUR TEAMMATES' VIEWS AND NEEDS into account. This is it honestly. You can be suboptimal. You can be a 100 cp in vet dlc dungeon. You can be new and not actually even know what Drain is. You may be running subpar gear or have no food because game never tells you you need one til vet dungeons. You may have never heard of Annulment. You can be on your first ever dungeon run and get all confused and lost in boss' mechanics. That's all fine. You just gotta understand you aren't the only one who's special and you DO have a responsibility to your teammates once you joined a team.

This is what I call "sensible".

Lexynide

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Both are subjectively ugly and objectively useless. Unfortunately, you can't find anything better to prove your point that the game is competitive by design... because it isn't.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Ditto. Objectively useless. Pure cosmetics, like crown store items.

I'll just quote myself:

And if they're all useless to you then well, the world doesn't spin around you.

And if we're going to go this "objectively useless" road then well, this game is objectively useless too. What a mind-blow, eh?
And whatever you're going to respond on this, I'll repeat myself just one more time: that's your opinion and it doesn't determine what is useful for other people. In case you haven't noticed, this game is heavily focused on these "useless achievements".

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You seem to be a little bit carried away. Let's stick to the original topic of this thread :
Not slotting ele drain does not equal to "deliberately using bad gear/skills and making everyone suffer".

It does equal to that when a mere request to "get a bit better by slotting ele drain" is met with irrational hostility and kicking the player. This is a MMO game where people cooperate, not safespace bubble.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

And respect in my book is not using group finder and impose competitive criteria upon strangers
Why not stick to your like-minded friends ?

Because, hello, this is a MMO game. It's called social interaction. If you're having social issues then maybe you shouldn't play a game where complete strangers get together to achieve common goal.
If a mere request is something deeply offensive for you... then a *social* game is simply not your cup of tea.
Social interaction shouldn't be a Minesweeper on hardest difficulty.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

in a game that is not designed to be played competitively

Allow me to do it just one more time:

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

This is not about my point of view. I mean, yes it is - my point of view being that when you're engaging in a team activity, YOU MUST TAKE YOUR TEAMMATES' VIEWS AND NEEDS into account.

But that has to go both ways, and I'm not sure that people demanding things are taking other people's needs and views into account at all. And by that, I don't mean only the needs of the characters and roles required to complete the dungeon. I also mean the needs and views of the humanbeings playing them.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that people demanding are only thinking about themselves, and how anyone dare make them spend 18 minutes in a dungeon instead of 15. That's all that matters to them.
But let's not over-generalize, I guess...

anitajoneb17_ESO

Lexynide wrote: »

And if we're going to go this "objectively useless" road then well, this game is objectively useless too.

No. Those achievements and costumes are objectively useless WITHIN THE GAME. They don't give you anything extra, stats, competence... nothing. They're objectively useless.

Now that people like to have them, and it provides an incentive to them to run the content, that's understandable and also the purpose of it. They're attractive. But useless nonetheless. Just like crown store items.
This game is not designed to be played competitively.

Lexynide wrote: »

It does equal to that when a mere request to "get a bit better by slotting ele drain" is met with irrational hostility and kicking the player. This is a MMO game where people cooperate, not safespace bubble.

If I remember correctly, OP is asking for a safespace bubble to impose his requirements on a healer... he's the one all butthurt about being kicked, and the one coming in here to complain about it.

Lexynide wrote: »

Because, hello, this is a MMO game. It's called social interaction.

Social interaction does not involve judging, demanding, and overall considering people just as a bunch of stats and skills.
I'll have to ask again : why not stick to your like-minded friends ? That would be the most "optimized" way to run with "optimized" people who "cooperate" the way you like it.
If you don't have enough friends ... well...

witchdoctor

I hope the healer stumbles across this thread, and chimes in with a solid, 'why ya mad bro? Slot this.'

At the end of the day, whether or not ele drain is, or is not, a skill for the healer, OP is a deeps who got vote kicked.

News at 11.

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

This is not about my point of view. I mean, yes it is - my point of view being that when you're engaging in a team activity, YOU MUST TAKE YOUR TEAMMATES' VIEWS AND NEEDS into account.

But that has to go both ways, and I'm not sure that people demanding things are taking other people's needs and views into account at all. And by that, I don't mean only the needs of the characters and roles required to complete the dungeon. I also mean the needs and views of the humanbeings playing them.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that people demanding are only thinking about themselves, and how anyone dare make them spend 18 minutes in a dungeon instead of 15. That's all that matters to them.
But let's not over-generalize, I guess...

Oh so we can agree on something, great!

I can only be sure for myself, well and my friends who also tell me stories. And I know that 9/10 times I dare suggest something that'd significantly improve a run/let us pass a boss we're stuck on I either get ignored or am met with extreme hostility. I've seen 12k health people who don't even accept food if you try to give it to them because they feel "health is not essential for dps", then die in first 3 seconds of the fight. I've had tanks ragequit when I asked them to slot some dps on Planar(I mean, I'm sorry but what do you want me to do? You MUST dps portals when you get them, I can't do that for you...pugs rarely have enough dps to let tank just hold her), tanks tell me to mind my own business when I ask them not to run a boss all over the room because it makes my dps fall down twofold("could you please not move the boss so much? Most of my dps comes from ground aoes so it lowers it a lot" - "oh shut up, it's not a trial, no one cares about your dps, just mind your own business"), 3k dps pull the "don't tell me how to play" line when I'd nicely try to suggest improving their performance because it simply wasn't cutting it, DK tanks go "lol no" at request to slot chain/talons...and just my requests and comments go ignored. Frost staff using healer keep heavy attacking, stealing agro and dying throughout the whole dungeon even though I have (nicely) told them it taunts. People refusing to follow mechanics, even after being explained you have to 25 times in a row - not just getting confused and failing to do it fast, but flatout not doing it even once per fight. People who just stand there and watch you die to a bashable mechanic, after you asked them 5 times to bash the boss(I'm not even sure what THAT is...do they just enjoy watching me die? I mean, sure you can miss a bash cue, but probably not after being told about it 10 times during previous fights and 2 times just now). People keep activating HM religiously every time when it's clear team cannot do it and they've been asked by all other 3 members to stop.

This doesn't even begin to cover it. This is disrespectful to me, and I am also a human being who has feelings, emotions and other things to do than wipe for 4 hours JUST because people refuse to slot a skill/follow a mechanic(don't confuse that with teams actually trying. Trying and failing can be ridiculously fun long as everyone's staying chill and actually trying). It is not okay to be disrespectful to another player just because that's what you want, is it?

You are assuming the people "demanding" things are the baddies here. This is sometimes the case, and I do not advocate for that, but in my experience the "elitism" is way more often seen from "casual" and "play how you want" crowd who'd rather die than adapt to their group's needs. The "demanding" ones are usually(usually. Not always. I have seen wannabe elitists who'd lie there dead to very first aoe themselves and demand more heals. Lol) "demanding" things because THEY are fulfilling their role whereas others are not.

By the way make no mistakes about pug quality being good. Only reason you can generally clear dungeons with pugs is because they've nerfed most dungeons to pretty much soloable level so even 3 extremely underperforming and non-team players have issues failing them. If you pug dlc dungeons, even super nerfed ic ones, you begin to see the actual picture of grouping in this game. See the large paragraph I wrote above.

Lexynide

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

But that has to go both ways

Absolutely. It's not normal when on the one side we have:

Hey friend, can you slot an elemental drain? That would be really great thanks!

And on the other:

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that people demanding are only thinking about themselves, and how anyone dare make them spend 18 minutes in a dungeon instead of 15. That's all that matters to them.

If there's one thing I'm sure is that you lack capacity to understand what people are saying.
The guy said it billion times: a mere request, one line, nothing else. He didn't push it, he didn't argue or anything. Just one line and that already causes people to metldown? All I can say is that I'm glad that those kind of people don't design nuclear bombs.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Now that people like to have them, and it provides an incentive to them to run the content, that's understandable and also the purpose of it. They're attractive. But useless nonetheless. Just like crown store items.
This game is not designed to be played competitively.

I'm not going to say anything except the fact that everytime you say "this game isn't designed to be played competitively" everyone in this thread gets dumber. Please stop doing that.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If I remember correctly, OP is asking for a safespace bubble to impose his requirements on a healer...

I... ugh... ouch... if I would to reply on this statement that is as void of logic as Tamriel is void of Dwemer and explain every wrong thing here it would take a lot, so I'll just confine myself to saying that you don't remember it correctly, sorry.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Social interaction does not involve judging, demanding, and overall considering people just as a bunch of stats and skills.

And there wasn't any of that. There was just a request. You know what is a true social skill? To differentiate what is a demand and what is a harmless request.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I'll have to ask again : why not stick to your like-minded friends ? That would be the most "optimized" way to run with "optimized" people who "cooperate" the way you like it.

Well gee, that's the vast majority of people who don't have social issues. Why is it that people always want to move an elephant away from tiny mouse and not the other way around?

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If you don't have enough friends ... well...

Then? Go on, continue. Oh wait, did you stop because you've realized that you're making an actual demand?
Speaking of which, it's usually the people who have bigger block list than friend list that are having the "friend" issue.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

This is not about my point of view. I mean, yes it is - my point of view being that when you're engaging in a team activity, YOU MUST TAKE YOUR TEAMMATES' VIEWS AND NEEDS into account.

But that has to go both ways, and I'm not sure that people demanding things are taking other people's needs and views into account at all. And by that, I don't mean only the needs of the characters and roles required to complete the dungeon. I also mean the needs and views of the humanbeings playing them.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that people demanding are only thinking about themselves, and how anyone dare make them spend 18 minutes in a dungeon instead of 15. That's all that matters to them.
But let's not over-generalize, I guess...

Oh so we can agree on something, great!

I can only be sure for myself, well and my friends who also tell me stories. And I know that 9/10 times I dare suggest something that'd significantly improve a run/let us pass a boss we're stuck on I either get ignored or am met with extreme hostility. I've seen 12k health people who don't even accept food if you try to give it to them because they feel "health is not essential for dps", then die in first 3 seconds of the fight. I've had tanks ragequit when I asked them to slot some dps on Planar(I mean, I'm sorry but what do you want me to do? You MUST dps portals when you get them, I can't do that for you...pugs rarely have enough dps to let tank just hold her), tanks tell me to mind my own business when I ask them not to run a boss all over the room because it makes my dps fall down twofold("could you please not move the boss so much? Most of my dps comes from ground aoes so it lowers it a lot" - "oh shut up, it's not a trial, no one cares about your dps, just mind your own business"), 3k dps pull the "don't tell me how to play" line when I'd nicely try to suggest improving their performance because it simply wasn't cutting it, DK tanks go "lol no" at request to slot chain/talons...and just my requests and comments go ignored. Frost staff using healer keep heavy attacking, stealing agro and dying throughout the whole dungeon even though I have (nicely) told them it taunts. People refusing to follow mechanics, even after being explained you have to 25 times in a row - not just getting confused and failing to do it fast, but flatout not doing it even once per fight. People who just stand there and watch you die to a bashable mechanic, after you asked them 5 times to bash the boss(I'm not even sure what THAT is...do they just enjoy watching me die? I mean, sure you can miss a bash cue, but probably not after being told about it 10 times during previous fights and 2 times just now). People keep activating HM religiously every time when it's clear team cannot do it and they've been asked by all other 3 members to stop.

This doesn't even begin to cover it. This is disrespectful to me, and I am also a human being who has feelings, emotions and other things to do than wipe for 4 hours JUST because people refuse to slot a skill/follow a mechanic(don't confuse that with teams actually trying. Trying and failing can be ridiculously fun long as everyone's staying chill and actually trying). It is not okay to be disrespectful to another player just because that's what you want, is it?

You are assuming the people "demanding" things are the baddies here. This is sometimes the case, and I do not advocate for that, but in my experience the "elitism" is way more often seen from "casual" and "play how you want" crowd who'd rather die than adapt to their group's needs. The "demanding" ones are usually(usually. Not always. I have seen wannabe elitists who'd lie there dead to very first aoe themselves and demand more heals. Lol) "demanding" things because THEY are fulfilling their role whereas others are not.

By the way make no mistakes about pug quality being good. Only reason you can generally clear dungeons with pugs is because they've nerfed most dungeons to pretty much soloable level so even 3 extremely underperforming and non-team players have issues failing them. If you pug dlc dungeons, even super nerfed ic ones, you begin to see the actual picture of grouping in this game. See the large paragraph I wrote above.

As always it's nice talking with you ! Even when we disagree. Which is not that often, considering that we stand on opposite sides of the argument (I know you'd like the game to be more challenging and selective overall, and I'd like to see it even less selective than it already is).

I know - and always have said - that casuals/hardcore (or good/bad, or elite/crowd, call it what you want) is not related to being or not being a jerk. And I've had situations like the ones you describe more often than not - in the role of the "good player" on top of that (the irony). I even had a guildie, a long-term guildie rage-quit the guild AND the game over vWGT and those portals. She could not kill the portals quick enough and expected us to help her closing them !!! She thought we were purposedly not helping her in order to ridicule her, and she refused to understand that we could not hit the portals because she was the only one who could... Also people who refuse to eat food are over the top imho.

It's a thin line between selfishly playing how you want, reasonably playing your personal custom build, and playing a meta imposed by elitists. Given that this line is thin, caution is advised in PUGs (where you are more likely to run with casuals than with hardcore, just a matter of numbers really).

When I mentioned that the quality of PUGs was good, I didn't mean the playing quality (even though most dungeons get cleared). I meant the human quality. People are friendly and patient, the occasional jerks being few and far between.

I don't PUG vet Bloodforge, vet Falkreath, vet Cradle or vet Mazzatun. Not because I think other members will be too weak. But because I think I'll be too weak and a burden to them. I do those dungeons with friends. As a counterpart, I expect to be left alone doing my job how-I-want when PUGging vet Elden Hollow 2 because I know I carry my own weight and above in this kind of dungeon. That's what I call "respecting both ways".

And I do listen to advice - especially when it comes to mechanics. But listening to advice and obeying requests are two different things - and the line is often quite thin.

Magdalina

@Lexynide o: ....marry me

anitajoneb17_ESO

Lexynide wrote: »

I'm not going to say anything except the fact that everytime you say "this game isn't designed to be played competitively" everyone in this thread gets dumber. Please stop doing that.

Sorry, I'll keep on repeating that because that's the truth : ESO is not designed as a competitive game.

I... ugh... ouch... if I would to reply on this statement that is as void of logic as Tamriel is void of Dwemer and explain every wrong thing here it would take a lot, so I'll just confine myself to saying that you don't remember it correctly, sorry.

I am remembering it correctly. He's the one coming to the forums complaining that he's been kicked by a group of alleged bad players for asking one of them to change his bar to slot one skill. He's the one who couldn't get over it and needed the sympathy of the whole community...

And there wasn't any of that. There was just a request. You know what is a true social skill? To differentiate what is a demand and what is a harmless request.

None of us was there, right ? But the fact is, 4 people were there, among which 3 decided it was "demanding" enough to instant-kick.

Well gee, that's the vast majority of people who don't have social issues. Why is it that people always want to move an elephant away from tiny mouse and not the other way around?

What's wrong with gamers these days, that makes them think that having a thick skin is better than not needing one at all ?

Also, remember that what you call "casuals" are the overwhelming majority in this game. Like in any non-competitive game. Whenever you PUG, you'll get grouped with them, statistically far more often than with people like you. I understand that you would like things to be the other way around, but they're not. The fact is, you're the minority and should adapt... or keep on qqing.

If you don't have enough friends ... well...

Then? Go on, continue. Oh wait, did you stop because you've realized that you're making an actual demand?
Speaking of which, it's usually the people who have bigger block list than friend list that are having the "friend" issue.

My conclusion is purely logical. If you have plenty of friends, and like to play with like-minded people, then why don't you run dungeons with them instead of PUGging and then complaining that randoms aren't the way you want them to ?

As long as you don't provide a sensible answer to this one, I'll have to conclude that you have no friends, or not enough. Whether it's related to "social skills"... is the next logical question.

I for one have enough friends to not burden PUG people for dungeons which I know I'm slightly too weak for. Which is of course an entirely different issue than yours, which is to find people worthy of your company in a dungeon ?

Magdalina wrote: »

@Lexynide o: ....marry me

Oh come on @Magdalina , spare yourself a divorce-within-two-days

Destruent

The main question imo is: Why does anyone join a group if he/she doesn't want to play as a group?
That's the main problem...not if anyone is elitist/noob/casual/pro/jerk/whatever....

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

Destruent wrote: »

The main question imo is: Why does anyone join a group if he/she doesn't want to play as a group?
That's the main problem...not if anyone is elitist/noob/casual/pro/jerk/whatever....

This is skyrim der

anitajoneb17_ESO

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

The main question imo is: Why does anyone join a group if he/she doesn't want to play as a group?
That's the main problem...not if anyone is elitist/noob/casual/pro/jerk/whatever....

This is skyrim der

Not sure what "der" means but... at least we agree on one point ..; ESO 's success is based on Skyrim's success... many, many players come from Skyrim, with Skyrim mentality, non-competitive, immersion-oriented.

That's the kind of people you'll likely (statistically) be grouped with whenever you PUG. Accept it and adapt... or don't PUG.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

The main question imo is: Why does anyone join a group if he/she doesn't want to play as a group?
That's the main problem...not if anyone is elitist/noob/casual/pro/jerk/whatever....

This is skyrim der

Not sure what "der" means but... at least we agree on one point ..; ESO 's success is based on Skyrim's success... many, many players come from Skyrim, with Skyrim mentality, non-competitive, immersion-oriented.

That's the kind of people you'll likely (statistically) be grouped with whenever you PUG. Accept it and adapt... or don't PUG.

You sound like someone who would be really good in a workplace. Cough.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

I know this is a double post but I have something VERY important to say. I actually came from morrowind before oblivion and before skyrim so EVERY person who groups with me has to miss almost every attack and no one who EVER groups with me is allowed to fast travel.

IF you do... grrrr oh if you DO! I will be so sensitive about it.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

You sound like someone who would be really good in a workplace. Cough.

Care to be more specific ?

Regardless... there's always some people comparing ESO with a "workplace". But the truth is, ESO is a game, which is pretty much the opposite of a workplace. Many people play GAMES to precisely escape the constraints of work : obligation to be good, get good, results, etc. Escapism, you know ?

I suspect people who emphasize on performance in a game compensate for lack of performance in job. And vice-versa. Just a personal theory though.
I for one am under a lot of pressure in job, and I do very well. This is the reason why, once out of job, when I log on into ESO, don't want to be pressured for performance anymore. Let people breathe FFS.

EDIT : you've been desperate to bait me into a personal fight with repeated personal attacks and provocations, instead of answering actual questions, like "why don't you run with friends instead of PUGging ?". Please keep this on topic and do not resort to personal attacks - it won't work.

Destruent

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

The main question imo is: Why does anyone join a group if he/she doesn't want to play as a group?
That's the main problem...not if anyone is elitist/noob/casual/pro/jerk/whatever....

This is skyrim der

Not sure what "der" means but... at least we agree on one point ..; ESO 's success is based on Skyrim's success... many, many players come from Skyrim, with Skyrim mentality, non-competitive, immersion-oriented.

That's the kind of people you'll likely (statistically) be grouped with whenever you PUG. Accept it and adapt... or don't PUG.

If i join a group, there's always atleast one player who came from skyrim/oblivion and started ESO bc of questing and so on. Guess what, it's me...and still, if i play tank/heal i ASK my group what they want/need as support. And you know why? Because if i group i want to play as group...not as a solo-player together with some more solo-players...
If i want to play solo, i don't need to group...

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

This is not about my point of view. I mean, yes it is - my point of view being that when you're engaging in a team activity, YOU MUST TAKE YOUR TEAMMATES' VIEWS AND NEEDS into account.

But that has to go both ways, and I'm not sure that people demanding things are taking other people's needs and views into account at all. And by that, I don't mean only the needs of the characters and roles required to complete the dungeon. I also mean the needs and views of the humanbeings playing them.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that people demanding are only thinking about themselves, and how anyone dare make them spend 18 minutes in a dungeon instead of 15. That's all that matters to them.
But let's not over-generalize, I guess...

Oh so we can agree on something, great!

I can only be sure for myself, well and my friends who also tell me stories. And I know that 9/10 times I dare suggest something that'd significantly improve a run/let us pass a boss we're stuck on I either get ignored or am met with extreme hostility. I've seen 12k health people who don't even accept food if you try to give it to them because they feel "health is not essential for dps", then die in first 3 seconds of the fight. I've had tanks ragequit when I asked them to slot some dps on Planar(I mean, I'm sorry but what do you want me to do? You MUST dps portals when you get them, I can't do that for you...pugs rarely have enough dps to let tank just hold her), tanks tell me to mind my own business when I ask them not to run a boss all over the room because it makes my dps fall down twofold("could you please not move the boss so much? Most of my dps comes from ground aoes so it lowers it a lot" - "oh shut up, it's not a trial, no one cares about your dps, just mind your own business"), 3k dps pull the "don't tell me how to play" line when I'd nicely try to suggest improving their performance because it simply wasn't cutting it, DK tanks go "lol no" at request to slot chain/talons...and just my requests and comments go ignored. Frost staff using healer keep heavy attacking, stealing agro and dying throughout the whole dungeon even though I have (nicely) told them it taunts. People refusing to follow mechanics, even after being explained you have to 25 times in a row - not just getting confused and failing to do it fast, but flatout not doing it even once per fight. People who just stand there and watch you die to a bashable mechanic, after you asked them 5 times to bash the boss(I'm not even sure what THAT is...do they just enjoy watching me die? I mean, sure you can miss a bash cue, but probably not after being told about it 10 times during previous fights and 2 times just now). People keep activating HM religiously every time when it's clear team cannot do it and they've been asked by all other 3 members to stop.

This doesn't even begin to cover it. This is disrespectful to me, and I am also a human being who has feelings, emotions and other things to do than wipe for 4 hours JUST because people refuse to slot a skill/follow a mechanic(don't confuse that with teams actually trying. Trying and failing can be ridiculously fun long as everyone's staying chill and actually trying). It is not okay to be disrespectful to another player just because that's what you want, is it?

You are assuming the people "demanding" things are the baddies here. This is sometimes the case, and I do not advocate for that, but in my experience the "elitism" is way more often seen from "casual" and "play how you want" crowd who'd rather die than adapt to their group's needs. The "demanding" ones are usually(usually. Not always. I have seen wannabe elitists who'd lie there dead to very first aoe themselves and demand more heals. Lol) "demanding" things because THEY are fulfilling their role whereas others are not.

By the way make no mistakes about pug quality being good. Only reason you can generally clear dungeons with pugs is because they've nerfed most dungeons to pretty much soloable level so even 3 extremely underperforming and non-team players have issues failing them. If you pug dlc dungeons, even super nerfed ic ones, you begin to see the actual picture of grouping in this game. See the large paragraph I wrote above.

As always it's nice talking with you ! Even when we disagree. Which is not that often, considering that we stand on opposite sides of the argument (I know you'd like the game to be more challenging and selective overall, and I'd like to see it even less selective than it already is).

I know - and always have said - that casuals/hardcore (or good/bad, or elite/crowd, call it what you want) is not related to being or not being a jerk. And I've had situations like the ones you describe more often than not - in the role of the "good player" on top of that (the irony). I even had a guildie, a long-term guildie rage-quit the guild AND the game over vWGT and those portals. She could not kill the portals quick enough and expected us to help her closing them !!! She thought we were purposedly not helping her in order to ridicule her, and she refused to understand that we could not hit the portals because she was the only one who could... Also people who refuse to eat food are over the top imho.

It's a thin line between selfishly playing how you want, reasonably playing your personal custom build, and playing a meta imposed by elitists. Given that this line is thin, caution is advised in PUGs (where you are more likely to run with casuals than with hardcore, just a matter of numbers really).

When I mentioned that the quality of PUGs was good, I didn't mean the playing quality (even though most dungeons get cleared). I meant the human quality. People are friendly and patient, the occasional jerks being few and far between.

I don't PUG vet Bloodforge, vet Falkreath, vet Cradle or vet Mazzatun. Not because I think other members will be too weak. But because I think I'll be too weak and a burden to them. I do those dungeons with friends. As a counterpart, I expect to be left alone doing my job how-I-want when PUGging vet Elden Hollow 2 because I know I carry my own weight and above in this kind of dungeon. That's what I call "respecting both ways".

And I do listen to advice - especially when it comes to mechanics. But listening to advice and obeying requests are two different things - and the line is often quite thin.

Even better, now we're getting somewhere! So we can agree that "playing how you want" can indeed be a very...bad thing to do in a group(when done...unreasonably. There're people who even make hybrid builds work for vet dlc dungeons and trials. Pros to them, why not?), and "the way you want" has to be weighted against the way other people want(which totally goes both sides).

I suppose you may have gotten luckier with pugs than me. Or perhaps it's easier to have a better experience in non dlc dungeons which I generally find pretty boring even with pugs. Being a nice human does play a huge role in being a good team member - because it generally implies respect and attention to other team members, which can get you a long way even if you're not really a good player. But in my experience overwhelming majority of...let's call them "casuals" I guess...have just been extremely ignorant, which is a far bigger issue than that of being new/inexperienced/not having bis gear/underperforming etc.

Now that we've found out we do actually agree at the core principle, let's get back to the OP. Assuming he told the full story and just said "healer please run drain on bosses"...what's so wrong with that again? I think we have established it is not wrong to ask for things that are beneficial for the group(which Drain very much is, seriously, you CAN do content without it but arguing that a group is better off without Drain is absurd). If healer didn't know what Drain is, or felt he had a valid reason not to slot it, why didn't he say so? You're calling it a "selfish demand that could scare poor sensitive people away", you don't think that's a bit overkill? What should he have said? "Dear Sir/Madam, I don't want to be a burden to you but perhaps you could be so kind to maybe possibly use Elemental Drain on bosses, which I would greatly appreciate and remember til my dying breath. I'd also like to assure you that if for some undoubtedly very important reason this is not a favor you'd want to bestow upon me, I shall hold no hard feelings against you, slot one myself and not bother you with my inferior requests anymore. I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience my message may cause you"? C'mon, it's a group activity, not 18th century royalty meeting. I am actually a very insecure person myself - ESO is my first MMO and when I started it I kinda freaked out at first, was really scared that others would see what I'm doing and find me stupid and whatnot. Was really afraid of group dungeons too, was afraid of vet dungeons for even longer. But if "healer please run drain on bosses" is making you feel THAT insecure you'd rather kick the person than respond to them...I don't want to be rude, but it sounds like there's something off there that isn't the way OP worded his request.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Destruent wrote: »

If i join a group, there's always atleast one player who came from skyrim/oblivion and started ESO bc of questing and so on. Guess what, it's me...and still, if i play tank/heal i ASK my group what they want/need as support. And you know why? Because if i group i want to play as group...not as a solo-player together with some more solo-players...
If i want to play solo, i don't need to group...

Sure noone can blame you for being as supportive of your group as you are. And sure everyone "should" be like you.
The point is.... many people CAN'T... and many people DON'T WANT TO... and for many people it's both. As a result, most people aren't like you.

Either you choose your group members according to your (valid) criteria, which means you group within friends and people you know... or you PUG and accept the fact that you're going to be grouped with people who aren't like-minded. DEAL WITH IT.
Or don't PUG.

TL/DR : If you have expectations, don't PUG.

Destruent

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

If i join a group, there's always atleast one player who came from skyrim/oblivion and started ESO bc of questing and so on. Guess what, it's me...and still, if i play tank/heal i ASK my group what they want/need as support. And you know why? Because if i group i want to play as group...not as a solo-player together with some more solo-players...
If i want to play solo, i don't need to group...

Sure noone can blame you for being as supportive of your group as you are. And sure everyone "should" be like you.
The point point is.... many people CAN'T... and many people DON'T WANT TO... and for many people it's both. As a result, most people aren't like you.

Either you choose your group members according to your (valid) criteria, which means you group within friends and people you know... or you PUG and accept the fact that you're going to be grouped with people who aren't like-minded. DEAL WITH IT.
Or don't PUG.

TL/DR : If you have expectations, don't PUG.

Oh, don't get me wrong, i don't expect that from a pug. I just expect them to write anything in chat when i say "hello" or ask for anything/explain something etc. And yet...the vast majority of pugs still fail to fulfill this extremely low expectation...

Dubhliam

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You seem to be a little bit carried away. Let's stick to the original topic of this thread :
Not slotting ele drain does not equal to "deliberately using bad gear/skills and making everyone suffer".

And here I thoughthe topic was: a group kicked a player for having a reasonable request of: "can healer slot ele drain?"

anitajoneb17_ESO

Destruent wrote: »

Oh, don't get me wrong, i don't expect that from a pug. I just expect them to write anything in chat when i say "hello" or ask for anything/explain something etc. And yet...the vast majority of pugs still fail to fulfill this extremely low expectation...

I can only agree with you on that. Your expectation is minimal and valid.
In my experience, though, 90% of PUGs actually :
- say hello / answer to hello's
- say spontaneously or answer when asked if it's their 1st time in this dungeon

as to asking for explanations... that's more rare.
Things (and moreover : people) are not always what we want them to be. The issue is... live with it ? Deal with it ? Or complain and create anger and hate ?
I sometimes too leave groups when I think things are hopeless... but it's rare. And in any case I don't make yet another forum thread about it...

Cryptical

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

Remember that sometimes you can ask nicely of a healer to use ele drain and the group will kick you for "telling them how to play".

Projection.

People have to realize that "slotting something" isn't that easy. It may break an entire build or rotation. I don't accept those requests either.

Some healers focus on healing and not buffing (and imho they're right). Your PUG healer doesn't have to be a buffing machine and there should be nothing to ask or complain about as long as the group is kept alive.

Want ele drain ? Slot it yourself...

A healer concentrated on healing can slot the ritual, regen, orbs, breath, springs, and the ultimate of their choice on their healing staff bar and achieve that total focus on healing through 4 simultaneous HoTs plus 2 panic burst heals... and is using only half their character's capacities.

It's not asking too much to run destro on bar 2 and to apply some ele drain while those 4 HoTs are cranking away.

ShadowMole25

So the main problem that I see is that you requested a skill that required the healer to run a destruction staff. Maybe they didn't run one and used restoration/sword and shield. Maybe they already had the skill slotted, but didn't like the fact that you were trying to change their build before seeing how it performed and thought that you might make more of these requests later on.

Now I'm pretty open to criticism from people, but only after they have seen how I perform or if I ask for advice. I would also be open to listening to an explanation of the mechanics of a dungeon if I have never done it before an from that I would adjust my build accordingly.

Basically, if you want me to change my build, even explain why the mechanics of the dungeon require a certain skill or analyze how my current build does first and explain how I could play better. Granted, I'm just a casual PvP player, so what do I know?

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

ShadowMole25 wrote: »

So the main problem that I see is that you requested a skill that required the healer to run a destruction staff. Maybe they didn't run one and used restoration/sword and shield. Maybe they already had the skill slotted, but didn't like the fact that you were trying to change their build before seeing how it performed and thought that you might make more of these requests later on.

Now I'm pretty open to criticism from people, but only after they have seen how I perform or if I ask for advice. I would also be open to listening to an explanation of the mechanics of a dungeon if I have never done it before an from that I would adjust my build accordingly.

Basically, if you want me to change my build, even explain why the mechanics of the dungeon require a certain skill or analyze how my current build does first and explain how I could play better. Granted, I'm just a casual PvP player, so what do I know?

If they said "Dont have destro" we move on and I slot it. I asked, they insta kicked. That is the whole point lol..

The other stuff is sooooo pointless..
1) Not changing a build just asking for a skill that is commonly used by healers
2) Wait and see how they perform? Oh lordy. I just wanted 18k Pen, dear lord save us from the evil I have started lol...

ShadowMole25

Hortator Indoril Nerevar wrote: »

ShadowMole25 wrote: »

So the main problem that I see is that you requested a skill that required the healer to run a destruction staff. Maybe they didn't run one and used restoration/sword and shield. Maybe they already had the skill slotted, but didn't like the fact that you were trying to change their build before seeing how it performed and thought that you might make more of these requests later on.

Now I'm pretty open to criticism from people, but only after they have seen how I perform or if I ask for advice. I would also be open to listening to an explanation of the mechanics of a dungeon if I have never done it before an from that I would adjust my build accordingly.

Basically, if you want me to change my build, even explain why the mechanics of the dungeon require a certain skill or analyze how my current build does first and explain how I could play better. Granted, I'm just a casual PvP player, so what do I know?

If they said "Dont have destro" we move on and I slot it. I asked, they insta kicked. That is the whole point lol..

The other stuff is sooooo pointless..
1) Not changing a build just asking for a skill that is commonly used by healers
2) Wait and see how they perform? Oh lordy. I just wanted 18k Pen, dear lord save us from the evil I have started lol...

Personally, I don't take preemptive advice unless it is accompanied with an explanation. That is not to say that I condone them insta kicking you though.

A better way to start that might have been, "The bosses in this dungeon have a lot of resistance and we need a source of Major Breach and/or Major Fracture in order to do any significant damage." This way you are explaining mechanics, while not requesting a specific skill from one person. For all you know, the tank is running Pierce Armor, which would make Elemental Drain redundant or maybe the other DPS is a nightblade with Mark Target.

Quaesivi

To start with, I have been maining a healer for the better half of this game's life. And I'm certainly not optimized, on the sense that I actually heal as a dunmer. Sure, a templar, with a restoration staff and spc/worm gear, but still, not maximized as it could have been with an altmer, per say.

And chiming into the discussion, there is only one more thing I'd say, you lost me at "pls", see, now if you actually took the time to write please, it would warrant some sort of kindness.

But really, "pls", it is just beggars talk, or 5 year-olds, so yea, certainly I'd not go as far as kicking you, per say, but I'd make sure that you would die at least once every boss, pureply for no reason other than I can.

Petty? Yes, certainly. Afterall manners are important. Heck, I'd even accept "Hey, do you have ele drain slotted" or something. But straight away saying "slot ele drain pls" is just, yup, that's right, annoying.

It is not about the optimization/maximization, it is not about healers or pugs, simply because you said "pls" Not elitist, hell I only completed only one vet trial simply because I don't have the time to sit for hours. And yes when necessary I do try to explain mechanics to dungeons if people do not know, but more often than not, when you try to explain something to a first timer, they actually respond with "kick me or leave", for ball's sake, I'm trying to help us all, but I get cussed for it by the "play however you want"ers.

OrphanHelgen

Vet dungeon should be some group balanced to make the life easier for all of you. Simple stuff like combat prayer and elemental drain and the dd at least try to do some dps, is quite necessary imh. Raging at a healer without spellpower cure is not needed, but when the tank doesnt have a taunt on his bar and uses the dragon leap ultimate to remove all the adds from your aoe, yes you have the right to be frustrated.

Lexynide

Magdalina wrote: »

I fail to grasp their logic I'm afraid. It escapes me why someone seemingly reasonable and intelligent would be so deadset on defending the "hardcore casual", aka "burn in hell but I will not adapt for you/my team" style and going as far as basically say "progression is bad because it makes people not progressing feel bad"

The issue here is a bit deeper than just plain "being a hardcore casual". There is a whole set of twisted definitions that in the end result into "what I say matters, what you say doesn't" and overall attitude of "my way or the highway".
It was repeatedly stated that there were no demands, no arguing and no insults - just a simple, harmless request that was met with hostility - and it was ignored.
It's the whole "only my feelings matter" kind of mentality that is creating the trouble. OP did not request something that has no use to anybody except him - everyone in group benefits from improved performance of every single member, including the aforementioned healer. You can't just go and claim that OP is egoistic because he only asked for a good thing for the entire group, all 4 members of it.

Aenthel wrote: »

But really, "pls", it is just beggars talk, or 5 year-olds, so yea, certainly I'd not go as far as kicking you, per say, but I'd make sure that you would die at least once every boss, pureply for no reason other than I can.

Petty? Yes, certainly. Afterall manners are important. Heck, I'd even accept "Hey, do you have ele drain slotted" or something. But straight away saying "slot ele drain pls" is just, yup, that's right, annoying.

That's quite sad. We have come to a point where the very words of politeness mean nothing to some people. Like a spoiled kids they demand special treatment for no reason and common courtesy is nothing to them. And you're ready to go as far as to deliberately wipe someone because he wasn't "polite" enough.
Perhaps more people should just outright command what to do to people like you and not even waste time trying to be polite. Sometimes people understand the value of things that they had only when they lose them.