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PVP - Any plans on balancing heavy armor finally?
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?
Snare immunity also makes a lot of sense, if that's too much, then 50% snare reduction (I dare you to snare a Stam warden lol)0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Highlighted the keyword here.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Impen 5/1/1 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 2585.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Well-Fitted 7 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 1195.
2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758 - 35k stamina spent by six consecutive dodge rolls
1195(+33%)->1589(+33%)->2114(+33%)->2811(+33%)->3739(+33%)->4973(+33%)->6614(+33%)->8797 - 31k stamina spent by eight consecutive dodge rolls
As you can see, it is not possible to spam dodge roll like it's possible to spam shields - you quickly run out of stamina by attempting to do so. Even with 7 Well-Fitted medium pieces.
So if there's a continuous stream of incoming damage that you can (and have to) dodge, you will run out of stamina.
Here's an experiment for you: if you have a medium armor stamina NB (not a S&B tank build, but dodge oriented one), go fight another stamina NB. Come back after that duel and let me know if you still think dodge roll is something broken when there's no undodgeable abilities. Personally, all I can say is that I find stamblade vs stamblade duels very enjoyable at the moment.Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I haven't personally had any problems with dmg shields this patch, they feel much more balanced now after Necro & Amber nerfs - atleast in no-CP campaign (where I tend to play).
That said, Shattering Blows is a terrible way spend your CPs (atleast as stamblade). 90%+ of your damage is direct damage anyway, so you're basicly choosing between:
a) Put 56 points into Shattering Blows and buff all your damage vs damage shields (not the shield user's health pool or any other player, e.g. heavy armor builds).
or
b) Put 56 points into Master-at-Arms and buff 90%+ of your damage vs everything, including dmg shields, shield caster's health pool & other players (e.g. heavy armor builds).I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Here I have to disagree.
The only impactful skills that dodge affects are frags, javelin, stamina ultimates (apart from Dawnbreaker) & Surprise Attack.
Literally almost everything else in the game is undodgeable: Birds, Jabs/Sweeps, Shalks, Fossilize, Jbeam, POTL/Purifying Light, Curse, every magicka ultimate in the game, every DoT tick (after they've been applied) in the game, every ground AoE in the game, resto/lightning heavy attacks, Skoria procs etc
If you think it's "frustrating" when a medium armor user dodges that Crystal Frag or Incap, try playing a medium build (not a S&B build that tries to play like heavy armor) and see how that works out when 90%+ of abilities hit you through those dodge rolls and the only thing they wind up accomplishing is draining your stamina.Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?
Trust me, the last thing you want is medium armor with more damage. With a damage oriented build, it's already looking a bit like 2016 when it comes to TTK.
What medium armor needs is survivability without increasing the damage output.
Something like "Heal for X when sprinting" could work for example, or the snare immunity you mentioned (though this only really helps in escaping).
Or just making dodge roll useful again vs builds such as... well, pretty much every Warden, Templar or DK.Edited by DDuke on August 25, 2017 9:41PM1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Highlighted the keyword here.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Impen 5/1/1 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 2585.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Well-Fitted 7 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 1195.
2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758 - 35k stamina spent by six consecutive dodge rolls
1195(+33%)->1589(+33%)->2114(+33%)->2811(+33%)->3739(+33%)->4973(+33%)->6614(+33%)->8797 - 31k stamina spent by eight consecutive dodge rolls
As you can see, it is not possible to spam dodge roll like it's possible to spam shields - you quickly run out of stamina by attempting to do so. Even with 7 Well-Fitted medium pieces.
So if there's a continuous stream of incoming damage that you can (and have to) dodge, you will run out of stamina.
Here's an experiment for you: if you have a medium armor stamina NB (not a S&B tank build, but dodge oriented one), go fight another stamina NB. Come back after that duel and let me know if you still think dodge roll is something broken when there's no undodgeable abilities. Personally, all I can say is that I find stamblade vs stamblade duels very enjoyable at the moment.Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I haven't personally had any problems with dmg shields this patch, they feel much more balanced now after Necro & Amber nerfs - atleast in no-CP campaign (where I tend to play).
That said, Shattering Blows is a terrible way spend your CPs (atleast as stamblade). 90%+ of your damage is direct damage anyway, so you're basicly choosing between:
a) Put 56 points into Shattering Blows and buff all your damage vs damage shields (not the shield user's health pool or any other player, e.g. heavy armor builds).
or
b) Put 56 points into Master-at-Arms and buff 90%+ of your damage vs everything, including dmg shields, shield caster's health pool & other players (e.g. heavy armor builds).I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Here I have to disagree.
The only impactful skills that dodge affects are frags, javelin, stamina ultimates (apart from Dawnbreaker) & Surprise Attack.
Literally almost everything else in the game is undodgeable: Birds, Jabs/Sweeps, Shalks, Fossilize, Jbeam, POTL/Purifying Light, Curse, every magicka ultimate in the game, every DoT tick (after they've been applied) in the game, every ground AoE in the game, resto/lightning heavy attacks, Skoria procs etc
If you think it's "frustrating" when a medium armor user dodges that Crystal Frag or Incap, try playing a medium build (not a S&B build that tries to play like heavy armor) and see how that works out when 90%+ of abilities hit you through those dodge rolls and the only thing they wind up accomplishing is draining your stamina.Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?
Trust me, the last thing you want is medium armor with more damage. With a damage oriented build, it's already looking a bit like 2016 when it comes to TTK.
What medium armor needs is survivability without increasing the damage output.
Something like "Heal for X when sprinting" could work for example, or the snare immunity you mentioned (though this only really helps in escaping).
Or just making dodge roll useful again vs builds such as... well, pretty much every Warden, Templar or DK.
Well, imagine what happens when there is no cost increase. Your vigor+ dodge will protect you in a multitude of situations; hence why they added all those undodgable skills. Puryfing light is undodgeable, but that's because they removed undodgeable and unblockable stuns from the Templar toolkit and locked it behind vampire. Jabs is melee range, j beam removes your mobilty, and curse really shouldn't be re-arming itself.
When I dodge roll, I don't have the cost reduction MA has. So I'm using it when I'm out numbered and know I'm going to be taking hits I can remove from my health/armor. I know I'm not removing all the damage on me, but negating light attacks trying to proc poisons and Sorc burst is enough reason to dodge.
They could use a buff, and if it's not damage, then it should be a special resistance that LA has. Maybe resistance to poisons or bleeds? Dodge rolling gives snare immunity so that doesn't make sense to give it to MA now. Everyone can stack crit so that doesn't make sense.
Stacking shattered attacks is not good since you lose out on crit/DMG increases, but you can get 10% extra DMG on shields to boost your dmg on sorcs/LA. Add in Oblivion enchants + knight slayer set and shields are balanced. Plus the fact that shields take all the DMG at once, but dodge roll will remove all the direct attacks coming at you (including crushing shock, the only Sorc spamable)
I'm not sure MA fully tried out their options. And it's ok if you do 3k WD instead of 4k, of losing that 1k means you'll survive longer because you trade it for resists that were missing.
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Highlighted the keyword here.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Impen 5/1/1 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 2585.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Well-Fitted 7 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 1195.
2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758 - 35k stamina spent by six consecutive dodge rolls
1195(+33%)->1589(+33%)->2114(+33%)->2811(+33%)->3739(+33%)->4973(+33%)->6614(+33%)->8797 - 31k stamina spent by eight consecutive dodge rolls
As you can see, it is not possible to spam dodge roll like it's possible to spam shields - you quickly run out of stamina by attempting to do so. Even with 7 Well-Fitted medium pieces.
So if there's a continuous stream of incoming damage that you can (and have to) dodge, you will run out of stamina.
Here's an experiment for you: if you have a medium armor stamina NB (not a S&B tank build, but dodge oriented one), go fight another stamina NB. Come back after that duel and let me know if you still think dodge roll is something broken when there's no undodgeable abilities. Personally, all I can say is that I find stamblade vs stamblade duels very enjoyable at the moment.Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I haven't personally had any problems with dmg shields this patch, they feel much more balanced now after Necro & Amber nerfs - atleast in no-CP campaign (where I tend to play).
That said, Shattering Blows is a terrible way spend your CPs (atleast as stamblade). 90%+ of your damage is direct damage anyway, so you're basicly choosing between:
a) Put 56 points into Shattering Blows and buff all your damage vs damage shields (not the shield user's health pool or any other player, e.g. heavy armor builds).
or
b) Put 56 points into Master-at-Arms and buff 90%+ of your damage vs everything, including dmg shields, shield caster's health pool & other players (e.g. heavy armor builds).I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Here I have to disagree.
The only impactful skills that dodge affects are frags, javelin, stamina ultimates (apart from Dawnbreaker) & Surprise Attack.
Literally almost everything else in the game is undodgeable: Birds, Jabs/Sweeps, Shalks, Fossilize, Jbeam, POTL/Purifying Light, Curse, every magicka ultimate in the game, every DoT tick (after they've been applied) in the game, every ground AoE in the game, resto/lightning heavy attacks, Skoria procs etc
If you think it's "frustrating" when a medium armor user dodges that Crystal Frag or Incap, try playing a medium build (not a S&B build that tries to play like heavy armor) and see how that works out when 90%+ of abilities hit you through those dodge rolls and the only thing they wind up accomplishing is draining your stamina.Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?
Trust me, the last thing you want is medium armor with more damage. With a damage oriented build, it's already looking a bit like 2016 when it comes to TTK.
What medium armor needs is survivability without increasing the damage output.
Something like "Heal for X when sprinting" could work for example, or the snare immunity you mentioned (though this only really helps in escaping).
Or just making dodge roll useful again vs builds such as... well, pretty much every Warden, Templar or DK.
Well, imagine what happens when there is no cost increase. Your vigor+ dodge will protect you in a multitude of situations; hence why they added all those undodgable skills. Puryfing light is undodgeable, but that's because they removed undodgeable and unblockable stuns from the Templar toolkit and locked it behind vampire. Jabs is melee range, j beam removes your mobilty, and curse really shouldn't be re-arming itself.
When I dodge roll, I don't have the cost reduction MA has. So I'm using it when I'm out numbered and know I'm going to be taking hits I can remove from my health/armor. I know I'm not removing all the damage on me, but negating light attacks trying to proc poisons and Sorc burst is enough reason to dodge.
They could use a buff, and if it's not damage, then it should be a special resistance that LA has. Maybe resistance to poisons or bleeds? Dodge rolling gives snare immunity so that doesn't make sense to give it to MA now. Everyone can stack crit so that doesn't make sense.
Stacking shattered attacks is not good since you lose out on crit/DMG increases, but you can get 10% extra DMG on shields to boost your dmg on sorcs/LA. Add in Oblivion enchants + knight slayer set and shields are balanced. Plus the fact that shields take all the DMG at once, but dodge roll will remove all the direct attacks coming at you (including crushing shock, the only Sorc spamable)
I'm not sure MA fully tried out their options. And it's ok if you do 3k WD instead of 4k, of losing that 1k means you'll survive longer because you trade it for resists that were missing.
Dodge roll does not give snare immunity. It gives root immuntiy for 2 seconds but u are still snared. You need to shuffle to remove snares which costs a lot and 2 seconds later ull be snared again. This idea that people have that medium armor builds dont suffer from snares and roots is just false.
I play a magsorc too and the rolls on my sorc are actually a lot more efficient than rolls on medium armor cause i dodge roll when i have to, is meaningful,make the most out of it, and dont really waste much stamina cause 1-2 or even 3 rolls are not expensive with tripots, sets like amber, shackle and cp passives.
On medium armor u are forced to spam dodge roll no matter what while being spammed with undodgeable stuff and blowing up ur stamina cause the cost of dodge roll increases exponentially and u will run out no matter how much cost reduction u have.
Sprinting stops ur stamina regen. You cant heal or cast any abilities while doing it but u can still take dmg and get snared. Which forces you to stop sprinting to cast shuffle, vigor, dodge roll etc, people just catch up on you again and u have to do it all over again. The only difference is that this time u dont have much stamina to do it.
You are saying that its not bad to drop ur wpn dmg down to get more tankiness but thats the whole point. If you do that then you are basically leaning away from the medium armor playstyle. You give up dmg and heavy ends up with more dmg and the tankiness u got already exists in heavy armor and synergizes perfect with that playstyle. So whats the point of playing in medium armor. You will be just better off using heavy armor.
Medium armor defences and the playstyle in general are based on outdated mechanics that were designed for a game that doesnt exist anymore.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Highlighted the keyword here.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Impen 5/1/1 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 2585.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Well-Fitted 7 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 1195.
2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758 - 35k stamina spent by six consecutive dodge rolls
1195(+33%)->1589(+33%)->2114(+33%)->2811(+33%)->3739(+33%)->4973(+33%)->6614(+33%)->8797 - 31k stamina spent by eight consecutive dodge rolls
As you can see, it is not possible to spam dodge roll like it's possible to spam shields - you quickly run out of stamina by attempting to do so. Even with 7 Well-Fitted medium pieces.
So if there's a continuous stream of incoming damage that you can (and have to) dodge, you will run out of stamina.
Here's an experiment for you: if you have a medium armor stamina NB (not a S&B tank build, but dodge oriented one), go fight another stamina NB. Come back after that duel and let me know if you still think dodge roll is something broken when there's no undodgeable abilities. Personally, all I can say is that I find stamblade vs stamblade duels very enjoyable at the moment.Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I haven't personally had any problems with dmg shields this patch, they feel much more balanced now after Necro & Amber nerfs - atleast in no-CP campaign (where I tend to play).
That said, Shattering Blows is a terrible way spend your CPs (atleast as stamblade). 90%+ of your damage is direct damage anyway, so you're basicly choosing between:
a) Put 56 points into Shattering Blows and buff all your damage vs damage shields (not the shield user's health pool or any other player, e.g. heavy armor builds).
or
b) Put 56 points into Master-at-Arms and buff 90%+ of your damage vs everything, including dmg shields, shield caster's health pool & other players (e.g. heavy armor builds).I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Here I have to disagree.
The only impactful skills that dodge affects are frags, javelin, stamina ultimates (apart from Dawnbreaker) & Surprise Attack.
Literally almost everything else in the game is undodgeable: Birds, Jabs/Sweeps, Shalks, Fossilize, Jbeam, POTL/Purifying Light, Curse, every magicka ultimate in the game, every DoT tick (after they've been applied) in the game, every ground AoE in the game, resto/lightning heavy attacks, Skoria procs etc
If you think it's "frustrating" when a medium armor user dodges that Crystal Frag or Incap, try playing a medium build (not a S&B build that tries to play like heavy armor) and see how that works out when 90%+ of abilities hit you through those dodge rolls and the only thing they wind up accomplishing is draining your stamina.Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?
Trust me, the last thing you want is medium armor with more damage. With a damage oriented build, it's already looking a bit like 2016 when it comes to TTK.
What medium armor needs is survivability without increasing the damage output.
Something like "Heal for X when sprinting" could work for example, or the snare immunity you mentioned (though this only really helps in escaping).
Or just making dodge roll useful again vs builds such as... well, pretty much every Warden, Templar or DK.
Well, imagine what happens when there is no cost increase. Your vigor+ dodge will protect you in a multitude of situations; hence why they added all those undodgable skills. Puryfing light is undodgeable, but that's because they removed undodgeable and unblockable stuns from the Templar toolkit and locked it behind vampire. Jabs is melee range, j beam removes your mobilty, and curse really shouldn't be re-arming itself.
Yes, but there is a cost increase - so what's the point exactly?
As I said, try playing a stamblade and dueling another stamblade (zero undodgeable damage besides PI & axe bleed) - it's perfectly 100% balanced and those fights don't take even 1/3rd of the time most duels between permablocking heavy armor builds or pet sorcs take.
I don't get what you're so afraid of.When I dodge roll, I don't have the cost reduction MA has. So I'm using it when I'm out numbered and know I'm going to be taking hits I can remove from my health/armor. I know I'm not removing all the damage on me, but negating light attacks trying to proc poisons and Sorc burst is enough reason to dodge.
They could use a buff, and if it's not damage, then it should be a special resistance that LA has. Maybe resistance to poisons or bleeds? Dodge rolling gives snare immunity so that doesn't make sense to give it to MA now. Everyone can stack crit so that doesn't make sense.
Dodge rolling removes roots & gives 2s root immunity, it doesn't give snare immunity (or remove snares).Stacking shattered attacks is not good since you lose out on crit/DMG increases, but you can get 10% extra DMG on shields to boost your dmg on sorcs/LA. Add in Oblivion enchants + knight slayer set and shields are balanced. Plus the fact that shields take all the DMG at once, but dodge roll will remove all the direct attacks coming at you (including crushing shock, the only Sorc spamable)
I'm not sure MA fully tried out their options. And it's ok if you do 3k WD instead of 4k, of losing that 1k means you'll survive longer because you trade it for resists that were missing.
Well, in theory you can drop points from Piercing to put into Shattering Blows - but I don't really see what's the point in that, you just gimp yourself against every stamina build and make it harder to get through the actual health pool of the shield user.
I haven't really had any problems with shields either this patch (with zero points in Shattering Blows): with a high damage build it takes one combo to kill pretty much anyone in light armor who thinks they don't need to block as well when they have their shield(s) up.
A pet sorc will still kill you with one Curse+Wrath into Soul Assault though, that's too much damage to heal through even with 35k stam & 4,8k weapon damage.
Sure, you can trade your damage (and healing) for more mitigation, but I thought we already established that if you want to play a tank build, you're better off in heavy armor.1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Highlighted the keyword here.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Impen 5/1/1 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 2585.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Well-Fitted 7 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 1195.
2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758 - 35k stamina spent by six consecutive dodge rolls
1195(+33%)->1589(+33%)->2114(+33%)->2811(+33%)->3739(+33%)->4973(+33%)->6614(+33%)->8797 - 31k stamina spent by eight consecutive dodge rolls
As you can see, it is not possible to spam dodge roll like it's possible to spam shields - you quickly run out of stamina by attempting to do so. Even with 7 Well-Fitted medium pieces.
So if there's a continuous stream of incoming damage that you can (and have to) dodge, you will run out of stamina.
Here's an experiment for you: if you have a medium armor stamina NB (not a S&B tank build, but dodge oriented one), go fight another stamina NB. Come back after that duel and let me know if you still think dodge roll is something broken when there's no undodgeable abilities. Personally, all I can say is that I find stamblade vs stamblade duels very enjoyable at the moment.Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I haven't personally had any problems with dmg shields this patch, they feel much more balanced now after Necro & Amber nerfs - atleast in no-CP campaign (where I tend to play).
That said, Shattering Blows is a terrible way spend your CPs (atleast as stamblade). 90%+ of your damage is direct damage anyway, so you're basicly choosing between:
a) Put 56 points into Shattering Blows and buff all your damage vs damage shields (not the shield user's health pool or any other player, e.g. heavy armor builds).
or
b) Put 56 points into Master-at-Arms and buff 90%+ of your damage vs everything, including dmg shields, shield caster's health pool & other players (e.g. heavy armor builds).I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Here I have to disagree.
The only impactful skills that dodge affects are frags, javelin, stamina ultimates (apart from Dawnbreaker) & Surprise Attack.
Literally almost everything else in the game is undodgeable: Birds, Jabs/Sweeps, Shalks, Fossilize, Jbeam, POTL/Purifying Light, Curse, every magicka ultimate in the game, every DoT tick (after they've been applied) in the game, every ground AoE in the game, resto/lightning heavy attacks, Skoria procs etc
If you think it's "frustrating" when a medium armor user dodges that Crystal Frag or Incap, try playing a medium build (not a S&B build that tries to play like heavy armor) and see how that works out when 90%+ of abilities hit you through those dodge rolls and the only thing they wind up accomplishing is draining your stamina.Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?
Trust me, the last thing you want is medium armor with more damage. With a damage oriented build, it's already looking a bit like 2016 when it comes to TTK.
What medium armor needs is survivability without increasing the damage output.
Something like "Heal for X when sprinting" could work for example, or the snare immunity you mentioned (though this only really helps in escaping).
Or just making dodge roll useful again vs builds such as... well, pretty much every Warden, Templar or DK.
Well, imagine what happens when there is no cost increase. Your vigor+ dodge will protect you in a multitude of situations; hence why they added all those undodgable skills. Puryfing light is undodgeable, but that's because they removed undodgeable and unblockable stuns from the Templar toolkit and locked it behind vampire. Jabs is melee range, j beam removes your mobilty, and curse really shouldn't be re-arming itself.
Yes, but there is a cost increase - so what's the point exactly?
As I said, try playing a stamblade and dueling another stamblade (zero undodgeable damage besides PI & axe bleed) - it's perfectly 100% balanced and those fights don't take even 1/3rd of the time most duels between permablocking heavy armor builds or pet sorcs take.
I don't get what you're so afraid of.When I dodge roll, I don't have the cost reduction MA has. So I'm using it when I'm out numbered and know I'm going to be taking hits I can remove from my health/armor. I know I'm not removing all the damage on me, but negating light attacks trying to proc poisons and Sorc burst is enough reason to dodge.
They could use a buff, and if it's not damage, then it should be a special resistance that LA has. Maybe resistance to poisons or bleeds? Dodge rolling gives snare immunity so that doesn't make sense to give it to MA now. Everyone can stack crit so that doesn't make sense.
Dodge rolling removes roots & gives 2s root immunity, it doesn't give snare immunity (or remove snares).Stacking shattered attacks is not good since you lose out on crit/DMG increases, but you can get 10% extra DMG on shields to boost your dmg on sorcs/LA. Add in Oblivion enchants + knight slayer set and shields are balanced. Plus the fact that shields take all the DMG at once, but dodge roll will remove all the direct attacks coming at you (including crushing shock, the only Sorc spamable)
I'm not sure MA fully tried out their options. And it's ok if you do 3k WD instead of 4k, of losing that 1k means you'll survive longer because you trade it for resists that were missing.
Well, in theory you can drop points from Piercing to put into Shattering Blows - but I don't really see what's the point in that, you just gimp yourself against every stamina build and make it harder to get through the actual health pool of the shield user.
I haven't really had any problems with shields either this patch (with zero points in Shattering Blows): with a high damage build it takes one combo to kill pretty much anyone in light armor who thinks they don't need to block as well when they have their shield(s) up.
A pet sorc will still kill you with one Curse+Wrath into Soul Assault though, that's too much damage to heal through even with 35k stam & 4,8k weapon damage.
Sure, you can trade your damage (and healing) for more mitigation, but I thought we already established that if you want to play a tank build, you're better off in heavy armor.
Who said resists are unique to tanks? You can establish minimums required for each armor type; for example mag builds can get away with 2k SD but need 35k minimum mag pool in PvP. For Stam, 3.3wd seems the be the sweet spot but need 33k Stam. Why can we do the same for defense?
In my test, for LA, you need 22k physical minimum/57-60% crit resistance max if you don't want to use a shield. That will give you 10% mitigation after a heavy penetration debuff (can be 18% if they only have 10k which is really to obtain for both Stam/mag).
For MA, you can be at 26k spell/physical max if you don't want to go below the Stam minimums I listed for offensive. Still using offensive/regen sets+an offensive mundas+ offensive traits. You won't be tanking 20+ people, but enough to survive burst and return the favor. Isn't that the point of buffing MA, adding enough survivability to be able to return to the attack?
For HA, you'll be at 22k physical since you'll need to pump more into offensive traits than the other two armors. But there are too many tanks builds at 70k health+ crazy resists levels, but even glad cannon can't kill them. But if no one can kill the tank alone, why bother trying to offensively beat it? Just run, or kill his buddies who aren't running tankier stats.
I think ZoS established a new minimal for armor effectiveness but the community hasn't caught up yet.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭wtf...being tanky is not exactly about having high resistances...but i guess you kow that yourself, do you?Edited by Destruent on August 28, 2017 6:53PMNoobplar0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Highlighted the keyword here.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Impen 5/1/1 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 2585.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Well-Fitted 7 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 1195.
2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758 - 35k stamina spent by six consecutive dodge rolls
1195(+33%)->1589(+33%)->2114(+33%)->2811(+33%)->3739(+33%)->4973(+33%)->6614(+33%)->8797 - 31k stamina spent by eight consecutive dodge rolls
As you can see, it is not possible to spam dodge roll like it's possible to spam shields - you quickly run out of stamina by attempting to do so. Even with 7 Well-Fitted medium pieces.
So if there's a continuous stream of incoming damage that you can (and have to) dodge, you will run out of stamina.
Here's an experiment for you: if you have a medium armor stamina NB (not a S&B tank build, but dodge oriented one), go fight another stamina NB. Come back after that duel and let me know if you still think dodge roll is something broken when there's no undodgeable abilities. Personally, all I can say is that I find stamblade vs stamblade duels very enjoyable at the moment.Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I haven't personally had any problems with dmg shields this patch, they feel much more balanced now after Necro & Amber nerfs - atleast in no-CP campaign (where I tend to play).
That said, Shattering Blows is a terrible way spend your CPs (atleast as stamblade). 90%+ of your damage is direct damage anyway, so you're basicly choosing between:
a) Put 56 points into Shattering Blows and buff all your damage vs damage shields (not the shield user's health pool or any other player, e.g. heavy armor builds).
or
b) Put 56 points into Master-at-Arms and buff 90%+ of your damage vs everything, including dmg shields, shield caster's health pool & other players (e.g. heavy armor builds).I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Here I have to disagree.
The only impactful skills that dodge affects are frags, javelin, stamina ultimates (apart from Dawnbreaker) & Surprise Attack.
Literally almost everything else in the game is undodgeable: Birds, Jabs/Sweeps, Shalks, Fossilize, Jbeam, POTL/Purifying Light, Curse, every magicka ultimate in the game, every DoT tick (after they've been applied) in the game, every ground AoE in the game, resto/lightning heavy attacks, Skoria procs etc
If you think it's "frustrating" when a medium armor user dodges that Crystal Frag or Incap, try playing a medium build (not a S&B build that tries to play like heavy armor) and see how that works out when 90%+ of abilities hit you through those dodge rolls and the only thing they wind up accomplishing is draining your stamina.Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?
Trust me, the last thing you want is medium armor with more damage. With a damage oriented build, it's already looking a bit like 2016 when it comes to TTK.
What medium armor needs is survivability without increasing the damage output.
Something like "Heal for X when sprinting" could work for example, or the snare immunity you mentioned (though this only really helps in escaping).
Or just making dodge roll useful again vs builds such as... well, pretty much every Warden, Templar or DK.
Well, imagine what happens when there is no cost increase. Your vigor+ dodge will protect you in a multitude of situations; hence why they added all those undodgable skills. Puryfing light is undodgeable, but that's because they removed undodgeable and unblockable stuns from the Templar toolkit and locked it behind vampire. Jabs is melee range, j beam removes your mobilty, and curse really shouldn't be re-arming itself.
Yes, but there is a cost increase - so what's the point exactly?
As I said, try playing a stamblade and dueling another stamblade (zero undodgeable damage besides PI & axe bleed) - it's perfectly 100% balanced and those fights don't take even 1/3rd of the time most duels between permablocking heavy armor builds or pet sorcs take.
I don't get what you're so afraid of.When I dodge roll, I don't have the cost reduction MA has. So I'm using it when I'm out numbered and know I'm going to be taking hits I can remove from my health/armor. I know I'm not removing all the damage on me, but negating light attacks trying to proc poisons and Sorc burst is enough reason to dodge.
They could use a buff, and if it's not damage, then it should be a special resistance that LA has. Maybe resistance to poisons or bleeds? Dodge rolling gives snare immunity so that doesn't make sense to give it to MA now. Everyone can stack crit so that doesn't make sense.
Dodge rolling removes roots & gives 2s root immunity, it doesn't give snare immunity (or remove snares).Stacking shattered attacks is not good since you lose out on crit/DMG increases, but you can get 10% extra DMG on shields to boost your dmg on sorcs/LA. Add in Oblivion enchants + knight slayer set and shields are balanced. Plus the fact that shields take all the DMG at once, but dodge roll will remove all the direct attacks coming at you (including crushing shock, the only Sorc spamable)
I'm not sure MA fully tried out their options. And it's ok if you do 3k WD instead of 4k, of losing that 1k means you'll survive longer because you trade it for resists that were missing.
Well, in theory you can drop points from Piercing to put into Shattering Blows - but I don't really see what's the point in that, you just gimp yourself against every stamina build and make it harder to get through the actual health pool of the shield user.
I haven't really had any problems with shields either this patch (with zero points in Shattering Blows): with a high damage build it takes one combo to kill pretty much anyone in light armor who thinks they don't need to block as well when they have their shield(s) up.
A pet sorc will still kill you with one Curse+Wrath into Soul Assault though, that's too much damage to heal through even with 35k stam & 4,8k weapon damage.
Sure, you can trade your damage (and healing) for more mitigation, but I thought we already established that if you want to play a tank build, you're better off in heavy armor.
Who said resists are unique to tanks? You can establish minimums required for each armor type; for example mag builds can get away with 2k SD but need 35k minimum mag pool in PvP. For Stam, 3.3wd seems the be the sweet spot but need 33k Stam. Why can we do the same for defense?
I don't know on what you base those numbers, but I can tell you there's pretty much zero chance you can burst through dmg shields or heavy armor with just 3,3k weapon damage (unless you mean unbuffed, in which case that's decent).
Also, weapon/spell dmg & stamina/magicka are also defense, as they boost your heals (and in case of magicka, shields) as well.In my test, for LA, you need 22k physical minimum/57-60% crit resistance max if you don't want to use a shield. That will give you 10% mitigation after a heavy penetration debuff (can be 18% if they only have 10k which is really to obtain for both Stam/mag).
Why on earth would you go LA if you don't plan on using shields? You're always better off in heavy armor in such a case.
You get that mitigation for free with heavy armor and the damage is already very close to equal. When you start compensating for the loss of mitigation in light armor by equipping defensive sets etc, your damage will be less than it'd be in heavy armor.
Atleast light armor has the option of using damage shields and surviving that way.For MA, you can be at 26k spell/physical max if you don't want to go below the Stam minimums I listed for offensive. Still using offensive/regen sets+an offensive mundas+ offensive traits. You won't be tanking 20+ people, but enough to survive burst and return the favor. Isn't that the point of buffing MA, adding enough survivability to be able to return to the attack?
Same as with light armor, you're better off just going heavy armor instead (like I demonstrated on the previous page). Why play a tank character in medium armor, when there's better armor type for that?
Also, I don't think the point of buffing MA would be to make it function exactly like heavy armor. This game lacks build diversity as it is, no need to make things worse.
Medium armor needs more survivability, yes, but not by turning it into heavy armor 2.0 - that's not the playstyle most people look for when they choose medium armor for their character.For HA, you'll be at 22k physical since you'll need to pump more into offensive traits than the other two armors. But there are too many tanks builds at 70k health+ crazy resists levels, but even glad cannon can't kill them. But if no one can kill the tank alone, why bother trying to offensively beat it? Just run, or kill his buddies who aren't running tankier stats.
I think ZoS established a new minimal for armor effectiveness but the community hasn't caught up yet.
You don't need to pump any more into offensive stats than light/medium, you'll get roughly the same amount just by default.
E.g. where medium gets 5161wd fully buffed, heavy gets 5009wd in the exact same gear (except heavy). 152 weapon damage difference, or around 1.8% damage.
And that's like the best case scenario for medium armor - a high damage build.
The lower your weapon damage, the less difference there'll be between medium/heavy damage.
Now, what do you think happens if that medium build throws away one offensive set just to get even with heavy armor's mitigation? Now you deal significantly less damage than the heavy armor build. It just doesn't work, trying to play a tank in medium armor (even if you fancied that a good idea).
That's without even bringing into account the existence of Fury & Ravager, which will allow a heavy armor build to deal a lot more damage in PvP than even the highest dmg medium build.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Highlighted the keyword here.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Impen 5/1/1 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 2585.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Well-Fitted 7 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 1195.
2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758 - 35k stamina spent by six consecutive dodge rolls
1195(+33%)->1589(+33%)->2114(+33%)->2811(+33%)->3739(+33%)->4973(+33%)->6614(+33%)->8797 - 31k stamina spent by eight consecutive dodge rolls
As you can see, it is not possible to spam dodge roll like it's possible to spam shields - you quickly run out of stamina by attempting to do so. Even with 7 Well-Fitted medium pieces.
So if there's a continuous stream of incoming damage that you can (and have to) dodge, you will run out of stamina.
Here's an experiment for you: if you have a medium armor stamina NB (not a S&B tank build, but dodge oriented one), go fight another stamina NB. Come back after that duel and let me know if you still think dodge roll is something broken when there's no undodgeable abilities. Personally, all I can say is that I find stamblade vs stamblade duels very enjoyable at the moment.Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I haven't personally had any problems with dmg shields this patch, they feel much more balanced now after Necro & Amber nerfs - atleast in no-CP campaign (where I tend to play).
That said, Shattering Blows is a terrible way spend your CPs (atleast as stamblade). 90%+ of your damage is direct damage anyway, so you're basicly choosing between:
a) Put 56 points into Shattering Blows and buff all your damage vs damage shields (not the shield user's health pool or any other player, e.g. heavy armor builds).
or
b) Put 56 points into Master-at-Arms and buff 90%+ of your damage vs everything, including dmg shields, shield caster's health pool & other players (e.g. heavy armor builds).I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Here I have to disagree.
The only impactful skills that dodge affects are frags, javelin, stamina ultimates (apart from Dawnbreaker) & Surprise Attack.
Literally almost everything else in the game is undodgeable: Birds, Jabs/Sweeps, Shalks, Fossilize, Jbeam, POTL/Purifying Light, Curse, every magicka ultimate in the game, every DoT tick (after they've been applied) in the game, every ground AoE in the game, resto/lightning heavy attacks, Skoria procs etc
If you think it's "frustrating" when a medium armor user dodges that Crystal Frag or Incap, try playing a medium build (not a S&B build that tries to play like heavy armor) and see how that works out when 90%+ of abilities hit you through those dodge rolls and the only thing they wind up accomplishing is draining your stamina.Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?
Trust me, the last thing you want is medium armor with more damage. With a damage oriented build, it's already looking a bit like 2016 when it comes to TTK.
What medium armor needs is survivability without increasing the damage output.
Something like "Heal for X when sprinting" could work for example, or the snare immunity you mentioned (though this only really helps in escaping).
Or just making dodge roll useful again vs builds such as... well, pretty much every Warden, Templar or DK.
Well, imagine what happens when there is no cost increase. Your vigor+ dodge will protect you in a multitude of situations; hence why they added all those undodgable skills. Puryfing light is undodgeable, but that's because they removed undodgeable and unblockable stuns from the Templar toolkit and locked it behind vampire. Jabs is melee range, j beam removes your mobilty, and curse really shouldn't be re-arming itself.
Yes, but there is a cost increase - so what's the point exactly?
As I said, try playing a stamblade and dueling another stamblade (zero undodgeable damage besides PI & axe bleed) - it's perfectly 100% balanced and those fights don't take even 1/3rd of the time most duels between permablocking heavy armor builds or pet sorcs take.
I don't get what you're so afraid of.When I dodge roll, I don't have the cost reduction MA has. So I'm using it when I'm out numbered and know I'm going to be taking hits I can remove from my health/armor. I know I'm not removing all the damage on me, but negating light attacks trying to proc poisons and Sorc burst is enough reason to dodge.
They could use a buff, and if it's not damage, then it should be a special resistance that LA has. Maybe resistance to poisons or bleeds? Dodge rolling gives snare immunity so that doesn't make sense to give it to MA now. Everyone can stack crit so that doesn't make sense.
Dodge rolling removes roots & gives 2s root immunity, it doesn't give snare immunity (or remove snares).Stacking shattered attacks is not good since you lose out on crit/DMG increases, but you can get 10% extra DMG on shields to boost your dmg on sorcs/LA. Add in Oblivion enchants + knight slayer set and shields are balanced. Plus the fact that shields take all the DMG at once, but dodge roll will remove all the direct attacks coming at you (including crushing shock, the only Sorc spamable)
I'm not sure MA fully tried out their options. And it's ok if you do 3k WD instead of 4k, of losing that 1k means you'll survive longer because you trade it for resists that were missing.
Well, in theory you can drop points from Piercing to put into Shattering Blows - but I don't really see what's the point in that, you just gimp yourself against every stamina build and make it harder to get through the actual health pool of the shield user.
I haven't really had any problems with shields either this patch (with zero points in Shattering Blows): with a high damage build it takes one combo to kill pretty much anyone in light armor who thinks they don't need to block as well when they have their shield(s) up.
A pet sorc will still kill you with one Curse+Wrath into Soul Assault though, that's too much damage to heal through even with 35k stam & 4,8k weapon damage.
Sure, you can trade your damage (and healing) for more mitigation, but I thought we already established that if you want to play a tank build, you're better off in heavy armor.
Who said resists are unique to tanks? You can establish minimums required for each armor type; for example mag builds can get away with 2k SD but need 35k minimum mag pool in PvP. For Stam, 3.3wd seems the be the sweet spot but need 33k Stam. Why can we do the same for defense?
In my test, for LA, you need 22k physical minimum/57-60% crit resistance max if you don't want to use a shield. That will give you 10% mitigation after a heavy penetration debuff (can be 18% if they only have 10k which is really to obtain for both Stam/mag).
For MA, you can be at 26k spell/physical max if you don't want to go below the Stam minimums I listed for offensive. Still using offensive/regen sets+an offensive mundas+ offensive traits. You won't be tanking 20+ people, but enough to survive burst and return the favor. Isn't that the point of buffing MA, adding enough survivability to be able to return to the attack?
For HA, you'll be at 22k physical since you'll need to pump more into offensive traits than the other two armors. But there are too many tanks builds at 70k health+ crazy resists levels, but even glad cannon can't kill them. But if no one can kill the tank alone, why bother trying to offensively beat it? Just run, or kill his buddies who aren't running tankier stats.
I think ZoS established a new minimal for armor effectiveness but the community hasn't caught up yet.
No, having high resists wont give you tankiness to the point of dropping shields while in light armor and still surviving. You are either playing a different game or dont understand how you achieve tankiness in PVP.
Like its been mentioned before, 1v1 between 2 normal stamblades and not some heavy armor duelling BS builds are the most fun. Those fights are intense and one mistake can get you killed cause you are squishy. Im not saying everyone should be squishy like stamblades but there is a fine line between being tanky cause of ur skill as a player and being tanky cause the game is very poorly designed.
And while that may not be an issue with light-medium-heavy specifically but more of a general problem with the current state of PVP, medium armor highlights perfectly those issues.
The medium armor playstyle is designed for a game that doesnt exist anymore. Mobility has been nerfed to oblivion, dodge roll is almost a waste of stamina with all the undodgeable stuff and that "get in their face burst, kill get out" playstyle just doesnt work anymore cause everyone is a f*cking tank that just wont die in a reasonable time.
Some random buffs/nerfs to a couple of sets and passives wont do. The game needs drastic changes with the goal of introducing skill back in the game.Edited by pieratsos on August 28, 2017 7:37PM2 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dodge is so useless in this game no one uses shuffle, because why bother? Everything is undodgeable *grin*.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Highlighted the keyword here.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Impen 5/1/1 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 2585.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Well-Fitted 7 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 1195.
2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758 - 35k stamina spent by six consecutive dodge rolls
1195(+33%)->1589(+33%)->2114(+33%)->2811(+33%)->3739(+33%)->4973(+33%)->6614(+33%)->8797 - 31k stamina spent by eight consecutive dodge rolls
As you can see, it is not possible to spam dodge roll like it's possible to spam shields - you quickly run out of stamina by attempting to do so. Even with 7 Well-Fitted medium pieces.
So if there's a continuous stream of incoming damage that you can (and have to) dodge, you will run out of stamina.
Here's an experiment for you: if you have a medium armor stamina NB (not a S&B tank build, but dodge oriented one), go fight another stamina NB. Come back after that duel and let me know if you still think dodge roll is something broken when there's no undodgeable abilities. Personally, all I can say is that I find stamblade vs stamblade duels very enjoyable at the moment.Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I haven't personally had any problems with dmg shields this patch, they feel much more balanced now after Necro & Amber nerfs - atleast in no-CP campaign (where I tend to play).
That said, Shattering Blows is a terrible way spend your CPs (atleast as stamblade). 90%+ of your damage is direct damage anyway, so you're basicly choosing between:
a) Put 56 points into Shattering Blows and buff all your damage vs damage shields (not the shield user's health pool or any other player, e.g. heavy armor builds).
or
b) Put 56 points into Master-at-Arms and buff 90%+ of your damage vs everything, including dmg shields, shield caster's health pool & other players (e.g. heavy armor builds).I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Here I have to disagree.
The only impactful skills that dodge affects are frags, javelin, stamina ultimates (apart from Dawnbreaker) & Surprise Attack.
Literally almost everything else in the game is undodgeable: Birds, Jabs/Sweeps, Shalks, Fossilize, Jbeam, POTL/Purifying Light, Curse, every magicka ultimate in the game, every DoT tick (after they've been applied) in the game, every ground AoE in the game, resto/lightning heavy attacks, Skoria procs etc
If you think it's "frustrating" when a medium armor user dodges that Crystal Frag or Incap, try playing a medium build (not a S&B build that tries to play like heavy armor) and see how that works out when 90%+ of abilities hit you through those dodge rolls and the only thing they wind up accomplishing is draining your stamina.Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?
Trust me, the last thing you want is medium armor with more damage. With a damage oriented build, it's already looking a bit like 2016 when it comes to TTK.
What medium armor needs is survivability without increasing the damage output.
Something like "Heal for X when sprinting" could work for example, or the snare immunity you mentioned (though this only really helps in escaping).
Or just making dodge roll useful again vs builds such as... well, pretty much every Warden, Templar or DK.
Well, imagine what happens when there is no cost increase. Your vigor+ dodge will protect you in a multitude of situations; hence why they added all those undodgable skills. Puryfing light is undodgeable, but that's because they removed undodgeable and unblockable stuns from the Templar toolkit and locked it behind vampire. Jabs is melee range, j beam removes your mobilty, and curse really shouldn't be re-arming itself.
Yes, but there is a cost increase - so what's the point exactly?
As I said, try playing a stamblade and dueling another stamblade (zero undodgeable damage besides PI & axe bleed) - it's perfectly 100% balanced and those fights don't take even 1/3rd of the time most duels between permablocking heavy armor builds or pet sorcs take.
I don't get what you're so afraid of.When I dodge roll, I don't have the cost reduction MA has. So I'm using it when I'm out numbered and know I'm going to be taking hits I can remove from my health/armor. I know I'm not removing all the damage on me, but negating light attacks trying to proc poisons and Sorc burst is enough reason to dodge.
They could use a buff, and if it's not damage, then it should be a special resistance that LA has. Maybe resistance to poisons or bleeds? Dodge rolling gives snare immunity so that doesn't make sense to give it to MA now. Everyone can stack crit so that doesn't make sense.
Dodge rolling removes roots & gives 2s root immunity, it doesn't give snare immunity (or remove snares).Stacking shattered attacks is not good since you lose out on crit/DMG increases, but you can get 10% extra DMG on shields to boost your dmg on sorcs/LA. Add in Oblivion enchants + knight slayer set and shields are balanced. Plus the fact that shields take all the DMG at once, but dodge roll will remove all the direct attacks coming at you (including crushing shock, the only Sorc spamable)
I'm not sure MA fully tried out their options. And it's ok if you do 3k WD instead of 4k, of losing that 1k means you'll survive longer because you trade it for resists that were missing.
Well, in theory you can drop points from Piercing to put into Shattering Blows - but I don't really see what's the point in that, you just gimp yourself against every stamina build and make it harder to get through the actual health pool of the shield user.
I haven't really had any problems with shields either this patch (with zero points in Shattering Blows): with a high damage build it takes one combo to kill pretty much anyone in light armor who thinks they don't need to block as well when they have their shield(s) up.
A pet sorc will still kill you with one Curse+Wrath into Soul Assault though, that's too much damage to heal through even with 35k stam & 4,8k weapon damage.
Sure, you can trade your damage (and healing) for more mitigation, but I thought we already established that if you want to play a tank build, you're better off in heavy armor.
Who said resists are unique to tanks? You can establish minimums required for each armor type; for example mag builds can get away with 2k SD but need 35k minimum mag pool in PvP. For Stam, 3.3wd seems the be the sweet spot but need 33k Stam. Why can we do the same for defense?
In my test, for LA, you need 22k physical minimum/57-60% crit resistance max if you don't want to use a shield. That will give you 10% mitigation after a heavy penetration debuff (can be 18% if they only have 10k which is really to obtain for both Stam/mag).
For MA, you can be at 26k spell/physical max if you don't want to go below the Stam minimums I listed for offensive. Still using offensive/regen sets+an offensive mundas+ offensive traits. You won't be tanking 20+ people, but enough to survive burst and return the favor. Isn't that the point of buffing MA, adding enough survivability to be able to return to the attack?
For HA, you'll be at 22k physical since you'll need to pump more into offensive traits than the other two armors. But there are too many tanks builds at 70k health+ crazy resists levels, but even glad cannon can't kill them. But if no one can kill the tank alone, why bother trying to offensively beat it? Just run, or kill his buddies who aren't running tankier stats.
I think ZoS established a new minimal for armor effectiveness but the community hasn't caught up yet.
No, having high resists wont give you tankiness to the point of dropping shields while in light armor and still surviving. You are either playing a different game or dont understand how you achieve tankiness in PVP.
Like its been mentioned before, 1v1 between 2 normal stamblades and not some heavy armor duelling BS builds are the most fun. Those fights are intense and one mistake can get you killed cause you are squishy. Im not saying everyone should be squishy like stamblades but there is a fine line between being tanky cause of ur skill as a player and being tanky cause the game is very poorly designed.
And while that may not be an issue with light-medium-heavy specifically but more of a general problem with the current state of PVP, medium armor highlights perfectly those issues.
The medium armor playstyle is designed for a game that doesnt exist anymore. Mobility has been nerfed to oblivion, dodge roll is almost a waste of stamina with all the undodgeable stuff and that "get in their face burst, kill get out" playstyle just doesnt work anymore cause everyone is a f*cking tank that just wont die in a reasonable time.
Some random buffs/nerfs to a couple of sets and passives wont do. The game needs drastic changes with the goal of introducing skill back in the game.
That's fair to say.
But the reality is that ZoS likes HA to dominate Cyro, and there is little you can do since they have stated that certain skills/classes/armors/sets will do better than others in each segment of the game. That has been the way they have balanced the game.
According to this, outside of sneak builds, MA is best kept for PvE.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
ezeepeezee✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
Problem with the old evasion based builds is that it adds a source of mitigation that was too passive. That's why they re-added undodgeable abilities and added a cost increase to it, because they were too many positives without any negatives. One dodge roll will negate ALL incoming direct attacks for 2k Stam on first cast; that's significantly better than shields or armor value lol.
Highlighted the keyword here.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Impen 5/1/1 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 2585.
Dodge roll cost with 7 Well-Fitted 7 Medium 56 points in Tumbling is 1195.
2585(+33%)->3438(+33%)->4573(+33%)->6081(+33%)->8088(+33%)->10 758 - 35k stamina spent by six consecutive dodge rolls
1195(+33%)->1589(+33%)->2114(+33%)->2811(+33%)->3739(+33%)->4973(+33%)->6614(+33%)->8797 - 31k stamina spent by eight consecutive dodge rolls
As you can see, it is not possible to spam dodge roll like it's possible to spam shields - you quickly run out of stamina by attempting to do so. Even with 7 Well-Fitted medium pieces.
So if there's a continuous stream of incoming damage that you can (and have to) dodge, you will run out of stamina.
Here's an experiment for you: if you have a medium armor stamina NB (not a S&B tank build, but dodge oriented one), go fight another stamina NB. Come back after that duel and let me know if you still think dodge roll is something broken when there's no undodgeable abilities. Personally, all I can say is that I find stamblade vs stamblade duels very enjoyable at the moment.Shield, despite many players disagreement on it, has a CP star dedicated to negating bastion plus poisons/Oblivion DMG. And lasts a hard 6 seconds with an expensive cost per cast.
I haven't personally had any problems with dmg shields this patch, they feel much more balanced now after Necro & Amber nerfs - atleast in no-CP campaign (where I tend to play).
That said, Shattering Blows is a terrible way spend your CPs (atleast as stamblade). 90%+ of your damage is direct damage anyway, so you're basicly choosing between:
a) Put 56 points into Shattering Blows and buff all your damage vs damage shields (not the shield user's health pool or any other player, e.g. heavy armor builds).
or
b) Put 56 points into Master-at-Arms and buff 90%+ of your damage vs everything, including dmg shields, shield caster's health pool & other players (e.g. heavy armor builds).I think dodge is in a good place currently; as a reaction not a pre-emptive action mechanic. It's still a great way to mitigate DMG and it locks out most of direct DMG burst (still a majority of cyro DMG). Meaning you can hit players if you know which should to use, but they can still avoid alot of DMG without making it frustrating to deal with. If only we could lock out Miat's add-on "warning players" about high burst, really dodgable skills...
Here I have to disagree.
The only impactful skills that dodge affects are frags, javelin, stamina ultimates (apart from Dawnbreaker) & Surprise Attack.
Literally almost everything else in the game is undodgeable: Birds, Jabs/Sweeps, Shalks, Fossilize, Jbeam, POTL/Purifying Light, Curse, every magicka ultimate in the game, every DoT tick (after they've been applied) in the game, every ground AoE in the game, resto/lightning heavy attacks, Skoria procs etc
If you think it's "frustrating" when a medium armor user dodges that Crystal Frag or Incap, try playing a medium build (not a S&B build that tries to play like heavy armor) and see how that works out when 90%+ of abilities hit you through those dodge rolls and the only thing they wind up accomplishing is draining your stamina.Only way to get HA and MA balanced is to deal with the DMG. HA should get a new way to increase DMG that isn't tied to WD/SD. It should be an armor both classes can slot, as the purpose is survivability. That's why I had the idea of boosting DMG of Ultimates through wraith; promote "berserker builds" and gives MA their WD buff as their unique armor stat.
LA is in a good place, penetration is there unique trait along with resistance to spells. HA returns resorces not Regen, and natural high resists to prolong fights. MA has ability to reduce cost of dodge roll/sneak making that defensive mechanic easy to use or letting stealth builds have their armor, plus they get an increase in dmg to offset the fact they don't get passive penetration.
Then it comes down to specific sets causing HA to outperform MA for physical damage. But at the same time, HA has access to SD sets Sao maybe that's not the best route. Should crit only be tied to LA/MA as a passive? That might make MA more effective over HA of they can get 50% crit lvl in CP while HA has to work for their crit and penetration? Snare immunity for MA? 15/20% WD instead of 12%?
Trust me, the last thing you want is medium armor with more damage. With a damage oriented build, it's already looking a bit like 2016 when it comes to TTK.
What medium armor needs is survivability without increasing the damage output.
Something like "Heal for X when sprinting" could work for example, or the snare immunity you mentioned (though this only really helps in escaping).
Or just making dodge roll useful again vs builds such as... well, pretty much every Warden, Templar or DK.
Well, imagine what happens when there is no cost increase. Your vigor+ dodge will protect you in a multitude of situations; hence why they added all those undodgable skills. Puryfing light is undodgeable, but that's because they removed undodgeable and unblockable stuns from the Templar toolkit and locked it behind vampire. Jabs is melee range, j beam removes your mobilty, and curse really shouldn't be re-arming itself.
Yes, but there is a cost increase - so what's the point exactly?
As I said, try playing a stamblade and dueling another stamblade (zero undodgeable damage besides PI & axe bleed) - it's perfectly 100% balanced and those fights don't take even 1/3rd of the time most duels between permablocking heavy armor builds or pet sorcs take.
I don't get what you're so afraid of.When I dodge roll, I don't have the cost reduction MA has. So I'm using it when I'm out numbered and know I'm going to be taking hits I can remove from my health/armor. I know I'm not removing all the damage on me, but negating light attacks trying to proc poisons and Sorc burst is enough reason to dodge.
They could use a buff, and if it's not damage, then it should be a special resistance that LA has. Maybe resistance to poisons or bleeds? Dodge rolling gives snare immunity so that doesn't make sense to give it to MA now. Everyone can stack crit so that doesn't make sense.
Dodge rolling removes roots & gives 2s root immunity, it doesn't give snare immunity (or remove snares).Stacking shattered attacks is not good since you lose out on crit/DMG increases, but you can get 10% extra DMG on shields to boost your dmg on sorcs/LA. Add in Oblivion enchants + knight slayer set and shields are balanced. Plus the fact that shields take all the DMG at once, but dodge roll will remove all the direct attacks coming at you (including crushing shock, the only Sorc spamable)
I'm not sure MA fully tried out their options. And it's ok if you do 3k WD instead of 4k, of losing that 1k means you'll survive longer because you trade it for resists that were missing.
Well, in theory you can drop points from Piercing to put into Shattering Blows - but I don't really see what's the point in that, you just gimp yourself against every stamina build and make it harder to get through the actual health pool of the shield user.
I haven't really had any problems with shields either this patch (with zero points in Shattering Blows): with a high damage build it takes one combo to kill pretty much anyone in light armor who thinks they don't need to block as well when they have their shield(s) up.
A pet sorc will still kill you with one Curse+Wrath into Soul Assault though, that's too much damage to heal through even with 35k stam & 4,8k weapon damage.
Sure, you can trade your damage (and healing) for more mitigation, but I thought we already established that if you want to play a tank build, you're better off in heavy armor.
Who said resists are unique to tanks? You can establish minimums required for each armor type; for example mag builds can get away with 2k SD but need 35k minimum mag pool in PvP. For Stam, 3.3wd seems the be the sweet spot but need 33k Stam. Why can we do the same for defense?
In my test, for LA, you need 22k physical minimum/57-60% crit resistance max if you don't want to use a shield. That will give you 10% mitigation after a heavy penetration debuff (can be 18% if they only have 10k which is really to obtain for both Stam/mag).
For MA, you can be at 26k spell/physical max if you don't want to go below the Stam minimums I listed for offensive. Still using offensive/regen sets+an offensive mundas+ offensive traits. You won't be tanking 20+ people, but enough to survive burst and return the favor. Isn't that the point of buffing MA, adding enough survivability to be able to return to the attack?
For HA, you'll be at 22k physical since you'll need to pump more into offensive traits than the other two armors. But there are too many tanks builds at 70k health+ crazy resists levels, but even glad cannon can't kill them. But if no one can kill the tank alone, why bother trying to offensively beat it? Just run, or kill his buddies who aren't running tankier stats.
I think ZoS established a new minimal for armor effectiveness but the community hasn't caught up yet.
No, having high resists wont give you tankiness to the point of dropping shields while in light armor and still surviving. You are either playing a different game or dont understand how you achieve tankiness in PVP.
Like its been mentioned before, 1v1 between 2 normal stamblades and not some heavy armor duelling BS builds are the most fun. Those fights are intense and one mistake can get you killed cause you are squishy. Im not saying everyone should be squishy like stamblades but there is a fine line between being tanky cause of ur skill as a player and being tanky cause the game is very poorly designed.
And while that may not be an issue with light-medium-heavy specifically but more of a general problem with the current state of PVP, medium armor highlights perfectly those issues.
The medium armor playstyle is designed for a game that doesnt exist anymore. Mobility has been nerfed to oblivion, dodge roll is almost a waste of stamina with all the undodgeable stuff and that "get in their face burst, kill get out" playstyle just doesnt work anymore cause everyone is a f*cking tank that just wont die in a reasonable time.
Some random buffs/nerfs to a couple of sets and passives wont do. The game needs drastic changes with the goal of introducing skill back in the game.
That's fair to say.
But the reality is that ZoS likes HA to dominate Cyro, and there is little you can do since they have stated that certain skills/classes/armors/sets will do better than others in each segment of the game. That has been the way they have balanced the game.
According to this, outside of sneak builds, MA is best kept for PvE.
IDK, I run 5 Ravaging, 5 Hunding, 5 medium 2 heavy on a stam Warden. It is very, very much PVP viable.1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
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You're the one who thinks 1hd/shield only works with heavy and that dodge is useless cause reasons *grin*
though I find it funny you're now trying to tell me that my build works and that I don't know why it works....
Cause you know, I just threw *** together with no rime or reason and couldn't possibly use my experience of playing this game since beta and creating multiple builds and playing every single stamina/magicka combination in the game.
Nope just complete dumb luck on my part.
*grin*....
Bout as bad as telling me a full medium armor well fitted stamina sorc has no mobility....while bitching I'm not running heavy armor.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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You're the one who thinks 1hd/shield only works with heavy and that dodge is useless cause reasons *grin*
though I find it funny you're now trying to tell me that my build works and that I don't know why it works....
Cause you know, I just threw *** together with no rime or reason and couldn't possibly use my experience of playing this game since beta and creating multiple builds and playing every single stamina/magicka combination in the game.
Nope just complete dumb luck on my part.
*grin*....
Bout as bad as telling me a full medium armor well fitted stamina sorc has no mobility....while bitching I'm not running heavy armor.
No, i never said that snb works only in heavy armor. Also i never said that your build doesnt work. I said it works better in heavy. Stop putting words in my mouth that i never said if you dont know what to say anymore. I explained you time and time again feel free to go back and read again.
And yes you dont know how it works. Your perspective of how the game works is very naive and you think its all just black and white. You put up a build together and because its in medium, you think that means medium armor is fine.
But yeah please tell me more about the burst from la-ransack-bash and how comparable it is with stamblade 2h/bow builds and please tell me more about how your medium armor is the one doing the work for you when in ur 2 minute footage (if you can actually call that footage) the only time where you are pressured you got saved by blocking.Edited by pieratsos on August 29, 2017 8:50AM2 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭So speaking of heavy armor builds, what's a good one for stamblade? I was thinking of bringing ravaged out of retirement but I'm not sure what to pair it with and if I should still go DW/2h or S&B.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
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You're the one who thinks 1hd/shield only works with heavy and that dodge is useless cause reasons *grin*
though I find it funny you're now trying to tell me that my build works and that I don't know why it works....
Cause you know, I just threw *** together with no rime or reason and couldn't possibly use my experience of playing this game since beta and creating multiple builds and playing every single stamina/magicka combination in the game.
Nope just complete dumb luck on my part.
*grin*....
Bout as bad as telling me a full medium armor well fitted stamina sorc has no mobility....while bitching I'm not running heavy armor.
No, i never said that snb works only in heavy armor. Also i never said that your build doesnt work. I said it works better in heavy. Stop putting words in my mouth that i never said if you dont know what to say anymore. I explained you time and time again feel free to go back and read again.
And yes you dont know how it works. Your perspective of how the game works is very naive and you think its all just black and white. You put up a build together and because its in medium, you think that means medium armor is fine.
But yeah please tell me more about the burst from la-ransack-bash and how comparable it is with stamblade 2h/bow builds and please tell me more about how your medium armor is the one doing the work for you when in ur 2 minute footage (if you can actually call that footage) the only time where you are pressured you got saved by blocking.
My perspective is naive? I run a sword and shield medium build that you said would work better in heavy because 1hd shield just works better with heavy. You then bitched i have no mobility while trying to tell me I'd have more in heavy then full well fitted medium on a stam sorc of all things because you think I need bolt escape. Which I find hilariously dumb but chalk it up to the fact you get all your play experience via you tube instead of in game.
As for burst from la/ransack/bash, that's been a staple of damage for stamina dragonknights for ages until you can get them low enough to dawnbreaker or leap them.
In my case you can look at my video and see that I don't even have those ults in that video and damn near was instant killing people. I can pretty much do the exact same thing now that I switched out tremors for Selenes instead and now have dawnbreaker but ***... you still don't think I can kill people it seems. Also I don't think I ever stated I have similar burst to nightblades, I got a lot of burst with my setup but I've built a bit more defensively as I can't cloak like a stamina nightblade can. I also don't wanna be in freakin heavy armor trying to face tank a bunch of people in AvA as I'm not in a duel but have to deal with kiting and using LoS when fighting multiple people.
you also don't see me get pressure much in that video because I'm bloody dodging attacks that can be dodged and blocking ones that can't. It's good having a multilayered defense approach in a game with unblockable and undodgable skills.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Ocelot9x✭✭✭✭Medium needs a buff,period. Medium is obsolete with all the undodgeable stuff. An example? With 23k HP its easy go get bursted by 4k dawnbreaker, 4,5k curse 8k cristal frag 7k ,guess what? All in 2 gcd,so no chance to avoid that. And it's not about sorc,every class can burst for that amount of damage (and remember that you can't be at 100% HP the whole time). For this reason people are using preemptive way of mitigating damage (shields,block,mitigation) while reactive ways of mitigation (roll dodge,burst heals) are good only if paired with the first group,but you can't do nothing while rolling (while you can block while burst healing or preventing to being dropped to execution threshold, shields).
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Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭@pieratsos
Ah there you are just as I said months ago after the heavy nerf in Morrowind you would still be here whining about heavy armor.
You claimed that it wasn't a L2P issues and that it was super OP gave infinite sustain blah, blah blah and deserved to be nerfed.
Now here you are, what's your excuse this time? No offence but this really is a L2P issue at this point.Edited by Anti_Virus on August 30, 2017 3:37AMPower Wealth And Influence.2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »@pieratsos
Ah there you are just as I said months ago after the heavy nerf in Morrowind you would still be here whining about heavy armor.
You claimed that it wasn't a L2P issues and that it was super OP gave infinite sustain blah, blah blah and deserved to be nerfed.
Now here you are, what's your excuse this time? No offence but this really is a L2P issue at this point.
Right. Like you said a few months ago. Maces give13k pen in an attempt to make heavy armor look weak. You make urself look like a fool because u didnt even know base game mechanics. Then agreeing with some nerfs that people asked and at the same time telling everyone to L2P.
I told you last time. Telling people to L2P doesnt make u look good. It makes you look dumb.
And no its not a L2P issue. Its "i want the game to be good" issue. And if u actually want numbers go back a few pages to get ur numbers.Edited by pieratsos on August 31, 2017 12:58AM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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You're the one who thinks 1hd/shield only works with heavy and that dodge is useless cause reasons *grin*
though I find it funny you're now trying to tell me that my build works and that I don't know why it works....
Cause you know, I just threw *** together with no rime or reason and couldn't possibly use my experience of playing this game since beta and creating multiple builds and playing every single stamina/magicka combination in the game.
Nope just complete dumb luck on my part.
*grin*....
Bout as bad as telling me a full medium armor well fitted stamina sorc has no mobility....while bitching I'm not running heavy armor.
No, i never said that snb works only in heavy armor. Also i never said that your build doesnt work. I said it works better in heavy. Stop putting words in my mouth that i never said if you dont know what to say anymore. I explained you time and time again feel free to go back and read again.
And yes you dont know how it works. Your perspective of how the game works is very naive and you think its all just black and white. You put up a build together and because its in medium, you think that means medium armor is fine.
But yeah please tell me more about the burst from la-ransack-bash and how comparable it is with stamblade 2h/bow builds and please tell me more about how your medium armor is the one doing the work for you when in ur 2 minute footage (if you can actually call that footage) the only time where you are pressured you got saved by blocking.
My perspective is naive? I run a sword and shield medium build that you said would work better in heavy because 1hd shield just works better with heavy. You then bitched i have no mobility while trying to tell me I'd have more in heavy then full well fitted medium on a stam sorc of all things because you think I need bolt escape. Which I find hilariously dumb but chalk it up to the fact you get all your play experience via you tube instead of in game.
As for burst from la/ransack/bash, that's been a staple of damage for stamina dragonknights for ages until you can get them low enough to dawnbreaker or leap them.
In my case you can look at my video and see that I don't even have those ults in that video and damn near was instant killing people. I can pretty much do the exact same thing now that I switched out tremors for Selenes instead and now have dawnbreaker but ***... you still don't think I can kill people it seems. Also I don't think I ever stated I have similar burst to nightblades, I got a lot of burst with my setup but I've built a bit more defensively as I can't cloak like a stamina nightblade can. I also don't wanna be in freakin heavy armor trying to face tank a bunch of people in AvA as I'm not in a duel but have to deal with kiting and using LoS when fighting multiple people.
you also don't see me get pressure much in that video because I'm bloody dodging attacks that can be dodged and blocking ones that can't. It's good having a multilayered defense approach in a game with unblockable and undodgable skills.
Since you cant even distinguish the difference between burst dmg and sustained dmg there is no point doing this conversation with you. You were stacking procs to get burst and u actually believe that la ransack bash is going to do the same. Right good luck with that.
And by all means feel free to show us.
Edited by pieratsos on August 31, 2017 12:46AM0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
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You're the one who thinks 1hd/shield only works with heavy and that dodge is useless cause reasons *grin*
though I find it funny you're now trying to tell me that my build works and that I don't know why it works....
Cause you know, I just threw *** together with no rime or reason and couldn't possibly use my experience of playing this game since beta and creating multiple builds and playing every single stamina/magicka combination in the game.
Nope just complete dumb luck on my part.
*grin*....
Bout as bad as telling me a full medium armor well fitted stamina sorc has no mobility....while bitching I'm not running heavy armor.
No, i never said that snb works only in heavy armor. Also i never said that your build doesnt work. I said it works better in heavy. Stop putting words in my mouth that i never said if you dont know what to say anymore. I explained you time and time again feel free to go back and read again.
And yes you dont know how it works. Your perspective of how the game works is very naive and you think its all just black and white. You put up a build together and because its in medium, you think that means medium armor is fine.
But yeah please tell me more about the burst from la-ransack-bash and how comparable it is with stamblade 2h/bow builds and please tell me more about how your medium armor is the one doing the work for you when in ur 2 minute footage (if you can actually call that footage) the only time where you are pressured you got saved by blocking.
My perspective is naive? I run a sword and shield medium build that you said would work better in heavy because 1hd shield just works better with heavy. You then bitched i have no mobility while trying to tell me I'd have more in heavy then full well fitted medium on a stam sorc of all things because you think I need bolt escape. Which I find hilariously dumb but chalk it up to the fact you get all your play experience via you tube instead of in game.
As for burst from la/ransack/bash, that's been a staple of damage for stamina dragonknights for ages until you can get them low enough to dawnbreaker or leap them.
In my case you can look at my video and see that I don't even have those ults in that video and damn near was instant killing people. I can pretty much do the exact same thing now that I switched out tremors for Selenes instead and now have dawnbreaker but ***... you still don't think I can kill people it seems. Also I don't think I ever stated I have similar burst to nightblades, I got a lot of burst with my setup but I've built a bit more defensively as I can't cloak like a stamina nightblade can. I also don't wanna be in freakin heavy armor trying to face tank a bunch of people in AvA as I'm not in a duel but have to deal with kiting and using LoS when fighting multiple people.
you also don't see me get pressure much in that video because I'm bloody dodging attacks that can be dodged and blocking ones that can't. It's good having a multilayered defense approach in a game with unblockable and undodgable skills.
I can get behind that.
There are undodgeable stuff, unblockable stuff, unshieldable stuff, and heal-reduction stuff..
Survivability needs a combination - you can't just rely on one single mechanism and hope to survive everything. There is a reason Amberplasm is very popular on sorcs..
Most threads I see complaining about medium are really complaining that dodging isn't a 'survive-everything' mechanic'.
Many threads I see for 'Nerf sorc, or Nerf heavy' are really 'Buff med' in disguise - which are really.. 'Dodge doesn't save me from everything' complaints in disguise.. Well, it shouldn't.
Edited by Biro123 on August 31, 2017 9:48AMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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You're the one who thinks 1hd/shield only works with heavy and that dodge is useless cause reasons *grin*
though I find it funny you're now trying to tell me that my build works and that I don't know why it works....
Cause you know, I just threw *** together with no rime or reason and couldn't possibly use my experience of playing this game since beta and creating multiple builds and playing every single stamina/magicka combination in the game.
Nope just complete dumb luck on my part.
*grin*....
Bout as bad as telling me a full medium armor well fitted stamina sorc has no mobility....while bitching I'm not running heavy armor.
No, i never said that snb works only in heavy armor. Also i never said that your build doesnt work. I said it works better in heavy. Stop putting words in my mouth that i never said if you dont know what to say anymore. I explained you time and time again feel free to go back and read again.
And yes you dont know how it works. Your perspective of how the game works is very naive and you think its all just black and white. You put up a build together and because its in medium, you think that means medium armor is fine.
But yeah please tell me more about the burst from la-ransack-bash and how comparable it is with stamblade 2h/bow builds and please tell me more about how your medium armor is the one doing the work for you when in ur 2 minute footage (if you can actually call that footage) the only time where you are pressured you got saved by blocking.
My perspective is naive? I run a sword and shield medium build that you said would work better in heavy because 1hd shield just works better with heavy. You then bitched i have no mobility while trying to tell me I'd have more in heavy then full well fitted medium on a stam sorc of all things because you think I need bolt escape. Which I find hilariously dumb but chalk it up to the fact you get all your play experience via you tube instead of in game.
As for burst from la/ransack/bash, that's been a staple of damage for stamina dragonknights for ages until you can get them low enough to dawnbreaker or leap them.
In my case you can look at my video and see that I don't even have those ults in that video and damn near was instant killing people. I can pretty much do the exact same thing now that I switched out tremors for Selenes instead and now have dawnbreaker but ***... you still don't think I can kill people it seems. Also I don't think I ever stated I have similar burst to nightblades, I got a lot of burst with my setup but I've built a bit more defensively as I can't cloak like a stamina nightblade can. I also don't wanna be in freakin heavy armor trying to face tank a bunch of people in AvA as I'm not in a duel but have to deal with kiting and using LoS when fighting multiple people.
you also don't see me get pressure much in that video because I'm bloody dodging attacks that can be dodged and blocking ones that can't. It's good having a multilayered defense approach in a game with unblockable and undodgable skills.
I can get behind that.
There are undodgeable stuff, unblockable stuff, unshieldable stuff, and heal-reduction stuff..
Survivability needs a combination - you can't just rely on one single mechanism and hope to survive everything. There is a reason Amberplasm is very popular on sorcs..
Most threads I see complaining about medium are really complaining that dodging isn't a 'survive-everything' mechanic'.
Many threads I see for 'Nerf sorc, or Nerf heavy' are really 'Buff med' in disguise - which are really.. 'Dodge doesn't save me from everything' complaints in disguise.. Well, it shouldn't.
Nice strawman. No one here is saying dodge should save medium builds from everything. I'd settle for it saving me from even something.
Let me know when most attacks in the game entirely ignore your damage shields, or when there's an ultimate that deals 5k dmg/second through your shield, forces you to block and drains over half your magicka pool.
Then you can pretend to know what medium armor should/shouldn't have.3 -
Ocelot9x✭✭✭✭
You're the one who thinks 1hd/shield only works with heavy and that dodge is useless cause reasons *grin*
though I find it funny you're now trying to tell me that my build works and that I don't know why it works....
Cause you know, I just threw *** together with no rime or reason and couldn't possibly use my experience of playing this game since beta and creating multiple builds and playing every single stamina/magicka combination in the game.
Nope just complete dumb luck on my part.
*grin*....
Bout as bad as telling me a full medium armor well fitted stamina sorc has no mobility....while bitching I'm not running heavy armor.
No, i never said that snb works only in heavy armor. Also i never said that your build doesnt work. I said it works better in heavy. Stop putting words in my mouth that i never said if you dont know what to say anymore. I explained you time and time again feel free to go back and read again.
And yes you dont know how it works. Your perspective of how the game works is very naive and you think its all just black and white. You put up a build together and because its in medium, you think that means medium armor is fine.
But yeah please tell me more about the burst from la-ransack-bash and how comparable it is with stamblade 2h/bow builds and please tell me more about how your medium armor is the one doing the work for you when in ur 2 minute footage (if you can actually call that footage) the only time where you are pressured you got saved by blocking.
My perspective is naive? I run a sword and shield medium build that you said would work better in heavy because 1hd shield just works better with heavy. You then bitched i have no mobility while trying to tell me I'd have more in heavy then full well fitted medium on a stam sorc of all things because you think I need bolt escape. Which I find hilariously dumb but chalk it up to the fact you get all your play experience via you tube instead of in game.
As for burst from la/ransack/bash, that's been a staple of damage for stamina dragonknights for ages until you can get them low enough to dawnbreaker or leap them.
In my case you can look at my video and see that I don't even have those ults in that video and damn near was instant killing people. I can pretty much do the exact same thing now that I switched out tremors for Selenes instead and now have dawnbreaker but ***... you still don't think I can kill people it seems. Also I don't think I ever stated I have similar burst to nightblades, I got a lot of burst with my setup but I've built a bit more defensively as I can't cloak like a stamina nightblade can. I also don't wanna be in freakin heavy armor trying to face tank a bunch of people in AvA as I'm not in a duel but have to deal with kiting and using LoS when fighting multiple people.
you also don't see me get pressure much in that video because I'm bloody dodging attacks that can be dodged and blocking ones that can't. It's good having a multilayered defense approach in a game with unblockable and undodgable skills.
I can get behind that.
There are undodgeable stuff, unblockable stuff, unshieldable stuff, and heal-reduction stuff..
Survivability needs a combination - you can't just rely on one single mechanism and hope to survive everything. There is a reason Amberplasm is very popular on sorcs..
Most threads I see complaining about medium are really complaining that dodging isn't a 'survive-everything' mechanic'.
Many threads I see for 'Nerf sorc, or Nerf heavy' are really 'Buff med' in disguise - which are really.. 'Dodge doesn't save me from everything' complaints in disguise.. Well, it shouldn't.
Nice strawman. No one here is saying dodge should save medium builds from everything. I'd settle for it saving me from even something.
Let me know when most attacks in the game entirely ignore your damage shields, or when there's an ultimate that deals 5k dmg/second through your shield, forces you to block and drains over half your magicka pool.
Then you can pretend to know what medium armor should/shouldn't have.
Man just stop,it's pointless to argue with them; they clearly never played a medium build and probably still struggling to kill someone even with all the undodgeable stuff zeni gave them0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
You're the one who thinks 1hd/shield only works with heavy and that dodge is useless cause reasons *grin*
though I find it funny you're now trying to tell me that my build works and that I don't know why it works....
Cause you know, I just threw *** together with no rime or reason and couldn't possibly use my experience of playing this game since beta and creating multiple builds and playing every single stamina/magicka combination in the game.
Nope just complete dumb luck on my part.
*grin*....
Bout as bad as telling me a full medium armor well fitted stamina sorc has no mobility....while bitching I'm not running heavy armor.
No, i never said that snb works only in heavy armor. Also i never said that your build doesnt work. I said it works better in heavy. Stop putting words in my mouth that i never said if you dont know what to say anymore. I explained you time and time again feel free to go back and read again.
And yes you dont know how it works. Your perspective of how the game works is very naive and you think its all just black and white. You put up a build together and because its in medium, you think that means medium armor is fine.
But yeah please tell me more about the burst from la-ransack-bash and how comparable it is with stamblade 2h/bow builds and please tell me more about how your medium armor is the one doing the work for you when in ur 2 minute footage (if you can actually call that footage) the only time where you are pressured you got saved by blocking.
My perspective is naive? I run a sword and shield medium build that you said would work better in heavy because 1hd shield just works better with heavy. You then bitched i have no mobility while trying to tell me I'd have more in heavy then full well fitted medium on a stam sorc of all things because you think I need bolt escape. Which I find hilariously dumb but chalk it up to the fact you get all your play experience via you tube instead of in game.
As for burst from la/ransack/bash, that's been a staple of damage for stamina dragonknights for ages until you can get them low enough to dawnbreaker or leap them.
In my case you can look at my video and see that I don't even have those ults in that video and damn near was instant killing people. I can pretty much do the exact same thing now that I switched out tremors for Selenes instead and now have dawnbreaker but ***... you still don't think I can kill people it seems. Also I don't think I ever stated I have similar burst to nightblades, I got a lot of burst with my setup but I've built a bit more defensively as I can't cloak like a stamina nightblade can. I also don't wanna be in freakin heavy armor trying to face tank a bunch of people in AvA as I'm not in a duel but have to deal with kiting and using LoS when fighting multiple people.
you also don't see me get pressure much in that video because I'm bloody dodging attacks that can be dodged and blocking ones that can't. It's good having a multilayered defense approach in a game with unblockable and undodgable skills.
I can get behind that.
There are undodgeable stuff, unblockable stuff, unshieldable stuff, and heal-reduction stuff..
Survivability needs a combination - you can't just rely on one single mechanism and hope to survive everything. There is a reason Amberplasm is very popular on sorcs..
Most threads I see complaining about medium are really complaining that dodging isn't a 'survive-everything' mechanic'.
Many threads I see for 'Nerf sorc, or Nerf heavy' are really 'Buff med' in disguise - which are really.. 'Dodge doesn't save me from everything' complaints in disguise.. Well, it shouldn't.
Nice strawman. No one here is saying dodge should save medium builds from everything. I'd settle for it saving me from even something.
Let me know when most attacks in the game entirely ignore your damage shields, or when there's an ultimate that deals 5k dmg/second through your shield, forces you to block and drains over half your magicka pool.
Then you can pretend to know what medium armor should/shouldn't have.
I don't like soul assault either.
I keep hearing this 'most' attacks can't be dodged.. I don't believe this. Not based on the kind of stuff I see being cited as undodgeable. Stuff like..:
AOE's or GTAOE dots, of which dodge is still one of the best tools to get you out of the area of.. yeah, you may take a small tick or two - so what?
Dot ticks, and delayed dot-like burst like mages wrath - where the initial attack that applied the dot CAN be dodged. Well, these CAN be dodged.
There are ulti's which can't be dodged - which is fair enough, imo
In general, channels can't be dodged - which I guess has counterplay in that the attacker is vulnerable while standing there channelling.
But the majority of stuff which bursts, CAN be dodged.
I mean, as an example, lets look at the offensive toolkit of the standard sorc..:
CS - Dodgeable
Mages Wrath - dodgeable
Frag - dodgeable
flame-staff light attacks - dodgeable
flame-staff heavy attacks - dodgeable.
Curse - not dodgeable - but not spammable either
Meteor - not dodgeable (but has a massive telegraph telling you when to block)
Or my Stamplar:
Crit-Rush - Dodgeable
Pierce Armour - Dodgeable
1-h or 2-h light attack - Dodgeable
1-h or 2-h heavy attack - Dodgeable
Reverse Slice - Dodgeable
Spear - Dodgeable
jabs- Not dodgeable (but short range)
Berserker Strike - Dodgeable
Basically, on most realistic PVP builds, the vast majority of stuff IS dodgeable. - unless you're looking at ball-group builds in which case if they catch you - nothing short of a full tank setup survives.
Edited by Biro123 on August 31, 2017 3:13PMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
You're the one who thinks 1hd/shield only works with heavy and that dodge is useless cause reasons *grin*
though I find it funny you're now trying to tell me that my build works and that I don't know why it works....
Cause you know, I just threw *** together with no rime or reason and couldn't possibly use my experience of playing this game since beta and creating multiple builds and playing every single stamina/magicka combination in the game.
Nope just complete dumb luck on my part.
*grin*....
Bout as bad as telling me a full medium armor well fitted stamina sorc has no mobility....while bitching I'm not running heavy armor.
No, i never said that snb works only in heavy armor. Also i never said that your build doesnt work. I said it works better in heavy. Stop putting words in my mouth that i never said if you dont know what to say anymore. I explained you time and time again feel free to go back and read again.
And yes you dont know how it works. Your perspective of how the game works is very naive and you think its all just black and white. You put up a build together and because its in medium, you think that means medium armor is fine.
But yeah please tell me more about the burst from la-ransack-bash and how comparable it is with stamblade 2h/bow builds and please tell me more about how your medium armor is the one doing the work for you when in ur 2 minute footage (if you can actually call that footage) the only time where you are pressured you got saved by blocking.
My perspective is naive? I run a sword and shield medium build that you said would work better in heavy because 1hd shield just works better with heavy. You then bitched i have no mobility while trying to tell me I'd have more in heavy then full well fitted medium on a stam sorc of all things because you think I need bolt escape. Which I find hilariously dumb but chalk it up to the fact you get all your play experience via you tube instead of in game.
As for burst from la/ransack/bash, that's been a staple of damage for stamina dragonknights for ages until you can get them low enough to dawnbreaker or leap them.
In my case you can look at my video and see that I don't even have those ults in that video and damn near was instant killing people. I can pretty much do the exact same thing now that I switched out tremors for Selenes instead and now have dawnbreaker but ***... you still don't think I can kill people it seems. Also I don't think I ever stated I have similar burst to nightblades, I got a lot of burst with my setup but I've built a bit more defensively as I can't cloak like a stamina nightblade can. I also don't wanna be in freakin heavy armor trying to face tank a bunch of people in AvA as I'm not in a duel but have to deal with kiting and using LoS when fighting multiple people.
you also don't see me get pressure much in that video because I'm bloody dodging attacks that can be dodged and blocking ones that can't. It's good having a multilayered defense approach in a game with unblockable and undodgable skills.
I can get behind that.
There are undodgeable stuff, unblockable stuff, unshieldable stuff, and heal-reduction stuff..
Survivability needs a combination - you can't just rely on one single mechanism and hope to survive everything. There is a reason Amberplasm is very popular on sorcs..
Most threads I see complaining about medium are really complaining that dodging isn't a 'survive-everything' mechanic'.
Many threads I see for 'Nerf sorc, or Nerf heavy' are really 'Buff med' in disguise - which are really.. 'Dodge doesn't save me from everything' complaints in disguise.. Well, it shouldn't.
Nice strawman. No one here is saying dodge should save medium builds from everything. I'd settle for it saving me from even something.
Let me know when most attacks in the game entirely ignore your damage shields, or when there's an ultimate that deals 5k dmg/second through your shield, forces you to block and drains over half your magicka pool.
Then you can pretend to know what medium armor should/shouldn't have.
I don't like soul assault either.
I keep hearing this 'most' attacks can't be dodged.. I don't believe this. Not based on the kind of stuff I see being cited as undodgeable. Stuff like..:
AOE's or GTAOE dots, of which dodge is still one of the best tools to get you out of the area of.. yeah, you may take a small tick or two - so what?
Dot ticks, and delayed dot-like burst like mages wrath - where the initial attack that applied the dot CAN be dodged. Well, these CAN be dodged.
There are ulti's which can't be dodged - which is fair enough, imo
In general, channels can't be dodged - which I guess has counterplay in that the attacker is vulnerable while standing there channelling.
But the majority of stuff which bursts, CAN be dodged.
I mean, as an example, lets look at the offensive toolkit of the standard sorc..:
CS - Dodgeable
Mages Wrath - dodgeable
Frag - dodgeable
flame-staff light attacks - dodgeable
flame-staff heavy attacks - dodgeable.
Curse - not dodgeable - but not spammable either
Meteor - not dodgeable (but has a massive telegraph telling you when to block)
Or my Stamplar:
Crit-Rush - Dodgeable
Pierce Armour - Dodgeable
1-h or 2-h light attack - Dodgeable
1-h or 2-h heavy attack - Dodgeable
Reverse Slice - Dodgeable
Spear - Dodgeable
jabs- Not dodgeable (but short range)
Berserker Strike - Dodgeable
Basically, on most realistic PVP builds, the vast majority of stuff IS dodgeable. - unless you're looking at ball-group builds in which case if they catch you - nothing short of a full tank setup survives.
If you dont understand the issue with sprint and dodge roll mechanics then u havent played medium armor.0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
You're the one who thinks 1hd/shield only works with heavy and that dodge is useless cause reasons *grin*
though I find it funny you're now trying to tell me that my build works and that I don't know why it works....
Cause you know, I just threw *** together with no rime or reason and couldn't possibly use my experience of playing this game since beta and creating multiple builds and playing every single stamina/magicka combination in the game.
Nope just complete dumb luck on my part.
*grin*....
Bout as bad as telling me a full medium armor well fitted stamina sorc has no mobility....while bitching I'm not running heavy armor.
No, i never said that snb works only in heavy armor. Also i never said that your build doesnt work. I said it works better in heavy. Stop putting words in my mouth that i never said if you dont know what to say anymore. I explained you time and time again feel free to go back and read again.
And yes you dont know how it works. Your perspective of how the game works is very naive and you think its all just black and white. You put up a build together and because its in medium, you think that means medium armor is fine.
But yeah please tell me more about the burst from la-ransack-bash and how comparable it is with stamblade 2h/bow builds and please tell me more about how your medium armor is the one doing the work for you when in ur 2 minute footage (if you can actually call that footage) the only time where you are pressured you got saved by blocking.
My perspective is naive? I run a sword and shield medium build that you said would work better in heavy because 1hd shield just works better with heavy. You then bitched i have no mobility while trying to tell me I'd have more in heavy then full well fitted medium on a stam sorc of all things because you think I need bolt escape. Which I find hilariously dumb but chalk it up to the fact you get all your play experience via you tube instead of in game.
As for burst from la/ransack/bash, that's been a staple of damage for stamina dragonknights for ages until you can get them low enough to dawnbreaker or leap them.
In my case you can look at my video and see that I don't even have those ults in that video and damn near was instant killing people. I can pretty much do the exact same thing now that I switched out tremors for Selenes instead and now have dawnbreaker but ***... you still don't think I can kill people it seems. Also I don't think I ever stated I have similar burst to nightblades, I got a lot of burst with my setup but I've built a bit more defensively as I can't cloak like a stamina nightblade can. I also don't wanna be in freakin heavy armor trying to face tank a bunch of people in AvA as I'm not in a duel but have to deal with kiting and using LoS when fighting multiple people.
you also don't see me get pressure much in that video because I'm bloody dodging attacks that can be dodged and blocking ones that can't. It's good having a multilayered defense approach in a game with unblockable and undodgable skills.
I can get behind that.
There are undodgeable stuff, unblockable stuff, unshieldable stuff, and heal-reduction stuff..
Survivability needs a combination - you can't just rely on one single mechanism and hope to survive everything. There is a reason Amberplasm is very popular on sorcs..
Most threads I see complaining about medium are really complaining that dodging isn't a 'survive-everything' mechanic'.
Many threads I see for 'Nerf sorc, or Nerf heavy' are really 'Buff med' in disguise - which are really.. 'Dodge doesn't save me from everything' complaints in disguise.. Well, it shouldn't.
Nice strawman. No one here is saying dodge should save medium builds from everything. I'd settle for it saving me from even something.
Let me know when most attacks in the game entirely ignore your damage shields, or when there's an ultimate that deals 5k dmg/second through your shield, forces you to block and drains over half your magicka pool.
Then you can pretend to know what medium armor should/shouldn't have.
I don't like soul assault either.
I keep hearing this 'most' attacks can't be dodged.. I don't believe this. Not based on the kind of stuff I see being cited as undodgeable. Stuff like..:
AOE's or GTAOE dots, of which dodge is still one of the best tools to get you out of the area of.. yeah, you may take a small tick or two - so what?
Dot ticks, and delayed dot-like burst like mages wrath - where the initial attack that applied the dot CAN be dodged. Well, these CAN be dodged.
There are ulti's which can't be dodged - which is fair enough, imo
In general, channels can't be dodged - which I guess has counterplay in that the attacker is vulnerable while standing there channelling.
But the majority of stuff which bursts, CAN be dodged.
I mean, as an example, lets look at the offensive toolkit of the standard sorc..:
CS - Dodgeable
Mages Wrath - dodgeable
Frag - dodgeable
flame-staff light attacks - dodgeable
flame-staff heavy attacks - dodgeable.
Curse - not dodgeable - but not spammable either
Meteor - not dodgeable (but has a massive telegraph telling you when to block)
Or my Stamplar:
Crit-Rush - Dodgeable
Pierce Armour - Dodgeable
1-h or 2-h light attack - Dodgeable
1-h or 2-h heavy attack - Dodgeable
Reverse Slice - Dodgeable
Spear - Dodgeable
jabs- Not dodgeable (but short range)
Berserker Strike - Dodgeable
Basically, on most realistic PVP builds, the vast majority of stuff IS dodgeable. - unless you're looking at ball-group builds in which case if they catch you - nothing short of a full tank setup survives.
If you dont understand the issue with sprint and dodge roll mechanics then u havent played medium armor.
Not an awful lot recently I haven't - no. My stamsorc is using a medium build at the mo, but (heavy) Stamplar is my new stamina toy - so I'm playing him for my stam fix.
But everybody dodges, and I've yet to be convinced there is a dodge problem. What's the sprint problem? You mean it pausing stam-recov? yeah, I know that one - using Cowards gear on my stamplar for mobility.
Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.1 -
the_man_of_steal✭✭✭Respectfully of everyone's opinions, but my view as a medium player is that if I am dodging 8 times consecutively in PVP, I am playing exceptionally wrong.
Too many attacks are undodgeable anyway there are a few reasons to dodge; to get out of AOE quickly, to avoid a well timed flurry of attacks from a good sorc, dodge into an opponent while wearing eternal hunt for extra finishing damage, to get your speed buff/run away.
When you run away as a medium build, you should be running toward a large rock, tree, or other objects that you can dance around while taking out the weaker targets following you. If you are trying to escape and get the heck away from a zerg, dodging 8 times is the most inefficient thing to do... I would humbly suggest a player dodge on their bow bar, immediately cast shuffle, then sprint or dodge again and cloak/sprint. Even with 50 players right on my tail, I find 90% of the time I can escape.
If you need to dodge 8 consecutive times during a dual your 1v1 build needs adjusting.
The reason I wear medium is for the regen, weapon damage and crit %... the dodge is just icing on the cake that allows medium players to have enough resources left to use other skills while incorporating some well timed dodges.
Just my opinion! Cheers4
