LegendaryMage wrote: »
In a world where more experienced players than you play.
So you are telling me, 189 magicka and stamina regeneration from constitute is overpowered?
28% stamina regeneration boost and 14% cost reduction is useless right?
800 stamina saved and regenerated each second is useless, even if you consider rapid mending passive, medium armor stamina sustain is still superior to heavy armor and is much more reliable.
Heavy attack is interuptable and you dont have to take damage all the time to make an use of constitution passive.
And what about the 28% dodge roll cost reduction on medium armor? Which is essential against roots and other CC.
We are really playing the different games, otherwise i cannot tell, if people saying heavy armor grants more sustain and damage than medium armor are serious or just trolling.
Wrath passive grants 200 weapon and spell damage, but you have to survive 20 hits from the enemy and sustain that for all the time, otherwise you will lose it in 5 seconds. And its not like stamina characters could heal of for enough to sustain those hits, and the shields doesnt really have the heavy armor resistances either.
Medium armor passive grants 12% weapon damage, which it is easly around 300 permament weapon damage and 2296 crit rate on top of that.
People are trying to do math and compare the armor passives, but keeps ignoring the conditions you have to fulfill to actually get any benefits from heavy armor itself.
Sure the resistances makes the difference and thats all, but dont tell people heavy armor grants more of X than medium because its absolute *** seriously.
Its not like you do the balancing at all.
SydneyGrey wrote: »Heavy armor was already nerfed.
Also, people have a DPS and sustain loss when they use heavy armor. If you think heavy armor is so OP, they why aren't you using it? Oh, right .. because you know your DPS and sustain will go down the toilet if you do.
#NoMoreNerfs
Buff medium, leave heavy alone.
There's another very simple explanation as to why some people don't use heavy (despite it obviously being better): they don't want to.
I, for instance, have mained "rogue" characters in pretty much every (MMO)RPG I've played - if you slap on heavy armor & S&B, you're not playing a rogue character, you're playing a "tank" character and that entirely changes how you play (and enjoy/don't enjoy) the game.
As to why heavy armor is significantly better (no, your DPS & sustain won't go "down the toilet"), here's some numbers for you:
Medium 5/1/1 with 5x Hunding's 4/5x Sheer Venom 2x Selene (a *very* high dmg setup) - 3911 Weapon Damage (with Major Brutality), 33,5k Stam
Heavy 5/1/1 with 5x Fury 5x Legion 2x Selene - 4926 Weapon Damage (with Major Brutality), 29,8k Stam
...well well, heavy armor gets more damage (yes, those sets are up close to 100% of time, even in 1v1).
And sustain in that gear is much easier than in damage heavy medium gear, trust me.
But yeah, I agree that nerfs aren't necessarily in order, it should simply be a matter of buffing medium armor as light vs heavy is much more comparable in terms of survivability & dmg.
A good place to start would be giving medium armor a reliable way of surviving that isn't mitigation/blocking (that's heavy armor's thing) - dodge roll is virtually useless these days with most skills ignoring it entirely.
Sure, 10% chance to get weapon damage, and 30 weapon damage increase stacking up 25 times for 6 seconds for each critical hit RECEIVED in pvp.
Good luck on that.
Lots of insights in this thread, I hope dev eyes find it. Heavy armor has a certain stigma about it, but there also seems to be a lot of general agreement that the skill line passives are actually in a very respectable place and seem to be somewhat balanced with light armor passives.
I really hope medium gets the buff it deserves (without buffing stamblades ffs). The obvious choice is to replace Improved Sneak but it would be muy bueno if they also completely replaced passive dodge with a parry mechanic.
I also hope Healing Ward size scaling gets nerfed a bit and resto/snb ultimate costs get increased, but that's not super relevant here.
Lots of insights in this thread, I hope dev eyes find it. Heavy armor has a certain stigma about it, but there also seems to be a lot of general agreement that the skill line passives are actually in a very respectable place and seem to be somewhat balanced with light armor passives.
I really hope medium gets the buff it deserves (without buffing stamblades ffs). The obvious choice is to replace Improved Sneak but it would be muy bueno if they also completely replaced passive dodge with a parry mechanic.
I also hope Healing Ward size scaling gets nerfed a bit and resto/snb ultimate costs get increased, but that's not super relevant here.
Trust me, medium armor being garbage affects stamblades just as well (maybe not as much as the other classes, but it's still garbage). You deal a ton of damage as stamblade, but in medium armor you're just free AP to anyone with undodgeable skills and ways to counter cloak.
Today I learned that Burning Embers alone deals 200 more damage than my Vigor heals (with 7 impen, 4,9k weapon dmg & 34k stamina). Try surviving that when it procs 3k Skorias, ignores your dodge roll & the magicka DK spams Volatile Armor whenever you try to cloak, and any burst you might have gets mitigated by heavy armor+block.
Experiences like that just make me wonder why am I still playing this game.
Lots of insights in this thread, I hope dev eyes find it. Heavy armor has a certain stigma about it, but there also seems to be a lot of general agreement that the skill line passives are actually in a very respectable place and seem to be somewhat balanced with light armor passives.
I really hope medium gets the buff it deserves (without buffing stamblades ffs). The obvious choice is to replace Improved Sneak but it would be muy bueno if they also completely replaced passive dodge with a parry mechanic.
I also hope Healing Ward size scaling gets nerfed a bit and resto/snb ultimate costs get increased, but that's not super relevant here.
Trust me, medium armor being garbage affects stamblades just as well (maybe not as much as the other classes, but it's still garbage). You deal a ton of damage as stamblade, but in medium armor you're just free AP to anyone with undodgeable skills and ways to counter cloak.
Today I learned that Burning Embers alone deals 200 more damage than my Vigor heals (with 7 impen, 4,9k weapon dmg & 34k stamina). Try surviving that when it procs 3k Skorias, ignores your dodge roll & the magicka DK spams Volatile Armor whenever you try to cloak, and any burst you might have gets mitigated by heavy armor+block.
Experiences like that just make me wonder why am I still playing this game.
Oh, go ahead - just ignore all the math done previously on this thread and post your own bogus numbers. Wonderful.
Constitution 189 magicka & stamina regeneration, what?
Also, there are no skills that get reduced by "800 per second" with the cost reduction. In fact, the cost reduction is much less than you'd think.
And the next thing to correct... there are no interruptable heavy attacks, period. There are dodgeable ones though (and undodgeable ones).
The amount of dodge rolls you can make is roughly the same between heavy & medium thanks to the exponential cost (see my calculations on previous page).
That said, if you're having trouble taking hits in heavy armor you're doing something wrong. A good stamina heavy armor build can easily outheal any incoming damage (as long as you block or dodge heavy hitters like Incap/frags etc), unless you're severely outnumbered.
No, it's not absolute ***, it's demonstrably true.
And I wish atleast someone did the balancing (perhaps the developers of this game) so that medium armor is enjoyable to play.
so ember deals less than you think. oh skoria is prpccing dks have aoe skills that makes me cloak useless so heavy armor is op and medium sucks. Best argument here.
Im not choosing any side but comments are so biased.
People saying 2k weapon damage + medium equaks to wrath + major brutality. yea how about adding major brutality to both equations?
Yes, agreed. Wrath passive is quite weak, unless you're comparing it to some potato stam build with less than 2000 unbuffed weapon damage.
Around 2000 is the breaking point where Agility starts outperforming Wrath.
2000+12%(Agility)=240 weapon damage
200(Wrath)+20% (Major Brutality)=240
Drakkdjinn wrote: »Drakkdjinn wrote: »UppGRAYxDD wrote: »As a Heavy armored magicka user since before the Imperial City patch, I disagree with alot of comments in here. I have stated before that light and heavy armor are both in a good place, but YES medium armor needs A SLIGHT BUFF. Just a little one, a huge buff would just set back the balance that ZoS is trying to create. A few ppl think it is the armor sets...this is incorrect, any character can use these hvy dmg sets by simply slotting weapons, 2 pieces on the body, and one accessory. I also disagree with any notion that the dodgeroll/shuffle combo is not an effective defensive measure. Mobility is the strength of medium armor and any good player knows this. The main problem I see is that most players dont want to think about positioning or plan attacks. They just roll in expecting to win and when things dont go their way they come to the forums and QQ and whine to the devs for a nerf. What ever happened to learning from failure? Theory crafting to overcome obstacles that you encounter? I understand being frustrated by getting whipped by another player constantly in duels or open world pvp, but dont just write it off as "they are using OP sets and need to get nerfed". Overcome the obstacles, improve your gameplay, and reap the rewards when you beat these so-called OP individuals through the power of thought and execution...
Not every character can use heavy sets. Its not just about using them just for the sake of using them.
Heavy armor comes in healthy jewellery meaning u have to give up ur main resources to run a heavy set. And its not only about finding a way to use heavy sets. Heavy sets such as fury and 7th legion require to constantly getting hit. They dont synergize with medium armor. Light/medium find limited use of heavy sets in general. But in heavy you can use those sets effectively and then just grab a light/medium sustain/dmg set to complete the build.
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crafted+Sets
Last time i checked fury and 7th legion are not craftable and they are both better than hundings rage.
LoL...just LoL.
Even if that were true, 7th and fury come in jewelry. 3 Piece Jewelry + 1h/shield or DW; voila you're wearing a "heavy" set with no pieces of heavy equipped. You're welcome.
so ember deals less than you think. oh skoria is prpccing dks have aoe skills that makes me cloak useless so heavy armor is op and medium sucks. Best argument here.
Im not choosing any side but comments are so biased.
People saying 2k weapon damage + medium equaks to wrath + major brutality. yea how about adding major brutality to both equations?Yes, agreed. Wrath passive is quite weak, unless you're comparing it to some potato stam build with less than 2000 unbuffed weapon damage.
Around 2000 is the breaking point where Agility starts outperforming Wrath.
2000+12%(Agility)=240 weapon damage
200(Wrath)+20% (Major Brutality)=240
He did add major brutality. For medium armor it wouldn't make any difference, bc agility and major/minor brutality are additive, so they don't effect each other.
regeneration ticks every 2 seconds, so it's 108 per piece * 7 =756 every 4 seconds; 756/2 =378 every 2 seconds and therefore comparable to regeneration.
people should really learn base-game mechanics before discussing here...
I cant believe how people claim heavy is op then bragging about 7th legion and fury. its a set. it wprl well with heavy but heavy armor is not a problem. i like ethernal hunt set. i cant roll dodge much in heavy. so medium is op? that is non sense.
I just want to asl something to people believe that heavy has better sustain + damage + defence than medium. please answer.
why no one invites heavy armor dds to their trial raids or even vet dungeons?
I cant believe how people claim heavy is op then bragging about 7th legion and fury. its a set. it wprl well with heavy but heavy armor is not a problem. i like ethernal hunt set. i cant roll dodge much in heavy. so medium is op? that is non sense.
I just want to asl something to people believe that heavy has better sustain + damage + defence than medium. please answer.
why no one invites heavy armor dds to their trial raids or even vet dungeons?
bc you f****ing want crit and more or less low survivability + supportsets for pve...that's the reason medium/light is better for dps there...
You know, there's a difference between pve and pvp...
I cant believe how people claim heavy is op then bragging about 7th legion and fury. its a set. it wprl well with heavy but heavy armor is not a problem. i like ethernal hunt set. i cant roll dodge much in heavy. so medium is op? that is non sense.
I just want to asl something to people believe that heavy has better sustain + damage + defence than medium. please answer.
why no one invites heavy armor dds to their trial raids or even vet dungeons?
bc you f****ing want crit and more or less low survivability + supportsets for pve...that's the reason medium/light is better for dps there...
You know, there's a difference between pve and pvp...
now medium has more crit, more or less survivability + synergy huh? what about few comments back when people claiming heavy is superior to medium because has more superior weapon damage and superior survivability?
Oh let me tel you something heavy magdks udually have around 1.5-1.7k spell damageLots of insights in this thread, I hope dev eyes find it. Heavy armor has a certain stigma about it, but there also seems to be a lot of general agreement that the skill line passives are actually in a very respectable place and seem to be somewhat balanced with light armor passives.
I really hope medium gets the buff it deserves (without buffing stamblades ffs). The obvious choice is to replace Improved Sneak but it would be muy bueno if they also completely replaced passive dodge with a parry mechanic.
I also hope Healing Ward size scaling gets nerfed a bit and resto/snb ultimate costs get increased, but that's not super relevant here.
Trust me, medium armor being garbage affects stamblades just as well (maybe not as much as the other classes, but it's still garbage). You deal a ton of damage as stamblade, but in medium armor you're just free AP to anyone with undodgeable skills and ways to counter cloak.
Today I learned that Burning Embers alone deals 200 more damage than my Vigor heals (with 7 impen, 4,9k weapon dmg & 34k stamina). Try surviving that when it procs 3k Skorias, ignores your dodge roll & the magicka DK spams Volatile Armor whenever you try to cloak, and any burst you might have gets mitigated by heavy armor+block.
Experiences like that just make me wonder why am I still playing this game.
so ember deals less than you think. oh skoria is prpccing dks have aoe skills that makes me cloak useless so heavy armor is op and medium sucks. Best argument here.
Im not choosing any side but comments are so biased.
People saying 2k weapon damage + medium equaks to wrath + major brutality. yea how about adding major brutality to both equations?
Its just so obvious some medium armor users here trying to manipulate people. Let me tell you something. Medium armor always will have more weapon damage + sustain co pared to heavy no matter what.
if you wear medium armor and try to play it like heavy you are doing it wrong. you will dodge roll and use evasion. you are trying to tank the incoming damage or block/heal like heavy and you fail that well its your problem. they have different play styles. if you want to tank and block wear heavy. if you are wearing medium get used to dodge rolling, timing your stuns and bursts.
if you are having hard time against heavy armor its because they time their bursts when they have their buffs up. Wepon damage sets in heavy usually requires for yoh to take damage. if you are playing against a sorcerer that using curse + frag or nb using concealed weapon etc you wont be sitting at 200 weapon damage all the time trust me.
to sum up; if you want to have more mobility, run faster, sneak, dodge roll etc use medium armor. if you like blocking, taking damage and heal through it use heavy armor. if you want to play in this style but wearing medium armor you are doing it wrong.
and just advice, you can use incap, disease damage etc to reduce the healing of your oppenent and its super effective. you can reduce the resists of heavy armor by having more penetration or with debuffs.
but you cant do anything againts sustain, roll dodge cost reduction etc of medium (except poisons)
bc weapon damage is only one part of your stats defining damage. You need wep-dmg, stamina, crit, crit-dmg, penetration for best possible DPS in PvE...crit and critdmg don't matter that much in pvp bc of impen and no warhorns used constantly.
Stam: same for heavy/medium
wep-dmg: higher for medium from passive, but heavy gets better with vertain sets
crit: medium >heavy all day
critdmg: same for heavy/medium
edit: pen: same for heavy/medium but medium has sets for increased penetration (but those don't really work constantly in pvp)
You got it?
bc weapon damage is only one part of your stats defining damage. You need wep-dmg, stamina, crit, crit-dmg, penetration for best possible DPS in PvE...crit and critdmg don't matter that much in pvp bc of impen and no warhorns used constantly.
Stam: same for heavy/medium
wep-dmg: higher for medium from passive, but heavy gets better with vertain sets
crit: medium >heavy all day
critdmg: same for heavy/medium
edit: pen: same for heavy/medium but medium has sets for increased penetration (but those don't really work constantly in pvp)
You got it?
You still have a sources of critical damage bonuses to counter impenetrable.
Still crit is a crit, even if its 150% of original damage value, heavy armor focus on damage doesnt have it.
Twice fanged serpent work in pvp and is more reliable than weapon damage stacking set in heavy armor.
Maces reduce the target armor by 20%, its the best counter against heavy armors in pvp, the same weapon doesnt work the same on the heavy armor user hands against medium, since the bonus damage is much smaller.
bc weapon damage is only one part of your stats defining damage. You need wep-dmg, stamina, crit, crit-dmg, penetration for best possible DPS in PvE...crit and critdmg don't matter that much in pvp bc of impen and no warhorns used constantly.
Stam: same for heavy/medium
wep-dmg: higher for medium from passive, but heavy gets better with vertain sets
crit: medium >heavy all day
critdmg: same for heavy/medium
edit: pen: same for heavy/medium but medium has sets for increased penetration (but those don't really work constantly in pvp)
You got it?
You still have a sources of critical damage bonuses to counter impenetrable.
Still crit is a crit, even if its 150% of original damage value, heavy armor focus on damage doesnt have it.
Twice fanged serpent work in pvp and is more reliable than weapon damage stacking set in heavy armor.
Maces reduce the target armor by 20%, its the best counter against heavy armors in pvp, the same weapon doesnt work the same on the heavy armor user hands against medium, since the bonus damage is much smaller.
So lets nerf heavy so only pve tanks will wear it right?
You still dont understand this armor types are situational. heavy meant to be tanky + dangerous with some sets while taking damage. and medium is for high crit, damage, some buffs to mobility etc
so if you want to play ganky and mobile play medium.
if you want to be tanky like warrior wear heavy.
if you want to play tanky and want to block, take some damage you are doing it wrong wearing medium. there is nothing op with heavy.
if you say fury + 7th legion etc is op, i said yes like 3 times already they are giving good amount of damage and better if not best weapon damage sets and i wouldnt mind if they get slight nerf that would be on point.
but if you reduce constitituon, resistances or healing erc that will kill heavy armor and most will effect magicka heavies.
imo medium need slight buff on resistances. if light sits on 10k and heavy around 20k (not exact numbers but yea) medium should sit around 15k resistances. other than that all other buffs are fine for medium.
So lets nerf heavy so only pve tanks will wear it right?
You still dont understand this armor types are situational. heavy meant to be tanky + dangerous with some sets while taking damage. and medium is for high crit, damage, some buffs to mobility etc
so if you want to play ganky and mobile play medium.
if you want to be tanky like warrior wear heavy.
if you want to play tanky and want to block, take some damage you are doing it wrong wearing medium. there is nothing op with heavy.
if you say fury + 7th legion etc is op, i said yes like 3 times already they are giving good amount of damage and better if not best weapon damage sets and i wouldnt mind if they get slight nerf that would be on point.
but if you reduce constitituon, resistances or healing erc that will kill heavy armor and most will effect magicka heavies.
imo medium need slight buff on resistances. if light sits on 10k and heavy around 20k (not exact numbers but yea) medium should sit around 15k resistances. other than that all other buffs are fine for medium.
No, I don't want to be tanky like heavy - but I'd like my dodge roll to actually do something and I'd like that "mobility" to actually matter. Who cares if you're good at running away/kiting, when you're dead to undodgeable shite before you get 10m away from your opponent(s)?
And no, I absolutely do not want to see medium armor becoming "heavy armor lite" by simply giving them more armor. You're not supposed to be tanky, you're supposed to be evasive.
What medium needs is something like Major Vitality for X seconds after/during dodge roll.
Hell, for all I care they can keep heavy armor as it is - but medium needs massive buffs to be competitive (or even fun to play) in PvP.
I cant believe how people claim heavy is op then bragging about 7th legion and fury. its a set. it wprl well with heavy but heavy armor is not a problem. i like ethernal hunt set. i cant roll dodge much in heavy. so medium is op? that is non sense.
I just want to asl something to people believe that heavy has better sustain + damage + defence than medium. please answer.
why no one invites heavy armor dds to their trial raids or even vet dungeons?
I cant believe how people claim heavy is op then bragging about 7th legion and fury. its a set. it wprl well with heavy but heavy armor is not a problem. i like ethernal hunt set. i cant roll dodge much in heavy. so medium is op? that is non sense.
I just want to asl something to people believe that heavy has better sustain + damage + defence than medium. please answer.
why no one invites heavy armor dds to their trial raids or even vet dungeons?
Because medium has more potential dmg than heavy. No one is arguing that. But PVP isnt the same. You are not just building for dmg in PVP and when you combine everything together then heavy can achieve about the same dmg as medium. Your perspective in the subject of dmg is very naive.
And yes heavy armor passives may be somewhat balanced but when combined everything together (mechanics, sets etc) it does give heavy armor the edge. Armor abilities must absolutely be restricted to their respective armor for starters and then take it from there.
Fully buffed, a 5/1/1 heavy build in Fury+Legion+Selene gets 30 737 stamina & 5566 weapon damage
Heavy setup: 1341 buffed stam regen
I cant believe how people claim heavy is op then bragging about 7th legion and fury. its a set. it wprl well with heavy but heavy armor is not a problem. i like ethernal hunt set. i cant roll dodge much in heavy. so medium is op? that is non sense.
I just want to asl something to people believe that heavy has better sustain + damage + defence than medium. please answer.
why no one invites heavy armor dds to their trial raids or even vet dungeons?
Because medium has more potential dmg than heavy. No one is arguing that. But PVP isnt the same. You are not just building for dmg in PVP and when you combine everything together then heavy can achieve about the same dmg as medium. Your perspective in the subject of dmg is very naive.
And yes heavy armor passives may be somewhat balanced but when combined everything together (mechanics, sets etc) it does give heavy armor the edge. Armor abilities must absolutely be restricted to their respective armor for starters and then take it from there.
I dont mind if they restrict armor skills. People clearly said heavy armor needs nerf then talked about particular sets and skills. I have my heavy magdk (as well as light sorc medium nb heavy nb heavydk stam etc) but i love it most but i dont use any of the sets people talking about (because im magicka) . light armor dks hitting me like a truck also i got hit from stamnb medium armor assasination scourge (assassins will) 13k in a duel while having 26k phy. resist. and that guy was kiting me and going invisible and yea he doesnt come out of stealth just because i used ember earlier. he burst me down with fear incap scourge while he just healed through all of my damage and as you know magdk heavy cant burst as other characters. i dont think that guy would be able to kill me if he was wearing heavy because he would loose his weapon damage stack when he runs away with invisibility. he choosed to be bursty by wearing medium.
if zos nerfs heavy armor just because 7th legion or fury etc i dont think i will enjoy playing my magdk heavy anymore. sustain is barely enough with 1.4k regen + desert rose. +i personally think heavy armor passives are not op. i will say it again just few weapon damage sets works well. may be considered op idk never tested them.
#leaveheavymagdkalone #enoughnerfsalready
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Fully buffed, a 5/1/1 heavy build in Fury+Legion+Selene gets 30 737 stamina & 5566 weapon damage
Heavy setup: 1341 buffed stam regen
Can I ask how one gains 5.5k with Fury + 7th Legion? Best I can do is 5.3 with all dmg glyphs on an sSorc. Although the difference is "marginal", I seem to overlook something.
Waffennacht wrote: »Yes
Yes
Fight Stamina beauties, fight amongst yourselves...
Ignore my Light Armor permablocking Damage dealing monstrosity...
Nerf heavy now that I've switched to light, also
Sorcs are OP right?