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PVP - Any plans on balancing heavy armor finally?
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).
You can supplement the resistances Lost from HA to medium. But you'd have to be willing to lose a little DMG to find a way to penetrate+ have additional healing done.
Sadly you'd be in the same boat as HA for penetration sources, but you'd be adding a 12% WD increase. Therefore, theoretically, you would only need to find a Regen set with a few passive defensive sets since running 2h/dual weld give a huge weapon DMG bonus.
But I haven't made a Stam build ever. Might want to try it out just to prove that there is a way to make medium armor effective without relating on dodge 100%.
Sure, you can run a defensive set and perhaps even S&B just to get equal defenses with heavy armor - but then you've already given up so much damage that you'd be better off in heavy armor.
Even the high damage setup I use right now gets only 128 weapon damage more than heavy armor - 4867 (medium) vs 4739 (same gear but heavy).
So if you were to use medium armor & a defensive set, you'd just lose a ton of damage/healing compared to wearing heavy armor and gain very little (if anything). Basis is that you'd need a set that helps you mitigate atleast 5% damage just to get even with heavy armor's mitigation (let alone healing).
But hey, give it a shot if you think it's doable - I'm also curious if there's actually anything I haven't tested already.
Couldn't you use CP to bring up the missing 5% defenses?
Well, you should already have your CPs assigned optimally - but with something like Impregnable you can remove points from Resistant.
Problem is, those points you've just removed can't really go anywhere - you already have 49 in Hardy & Elemental Defender and 56 in Ironclad, so they don't scale much at all anymore.
You could put the 43 points from Resistant to Medium Armor focus, but that just gets you even with Heavy Armor's mitigation, only except you now have less weapon damage (and healing) than you'd have in heavy.
This is what I got the stats to be.
You can get weapon DMG to be around 3200 and if a set procs you'll get around 3800 WD.
I'd say since I'm at 33k Stam and 3200 WD I'm in a minimum state for combat effective pvp. I'm at 6965 penetration but have access to major fracture through NB/S+B plus I have one mace (if against 26k resists I'll have 2600 penetration). Making my penetration around, 14845. Almost equal to spell penetration of 15280, which I use for my penetration baselines.
Regen is low, but that's because I use two DMG enchants instead of two Regen enchants. I could be at 1700 Regen. I'll probably swap one set to get a more Regen oriented set since I'm using hundings on the armor.
Well, give it a shot and see how that works out - but based on experience I can already tell that build would almost certainly do better as heavy armor one: better synergy with S&B and blocking, minimal weapon dmg loss, increased healing and increased mitigation without hitting the cap, as well as no real difference between sustain as your stam regen is pretty low.
You might also want to swap to Jewels of Misrule if you plan on using cloak/fear with your build.
No cloak, why waste the mag if I'm going to be found anyway. Though cloak gives minor protection. Mag dump is through mirage which grants minor resist buffs consistently plus dodge chance.
The build went briarheart for the crit heals plus burst potential. Adding dual weld bleed for an offensive heal but I went quick cloak for the 25% extra mitigation on AOE DMG.
HA gets a boost to Max health and healing received (aside from the easily gained resists). That's the real benefit of HA but if you use two siphoning spells plus a shadow spell, you'll match the healing received and have a little extra health. HA is redundant for nightblade.
S+b works on a LA build; it can work on a medium build. You don't need HA to make it work. I'd argue with MA, you get block+ dodge roll (if in CP) at will making s+B more BiS for medium armor users than the other 2 armors. Also slot s+b for that extra heal/reflect against sorcs.
But I'd have to test it in combat.
I tried Briar on a medium build - problem is that it is really, really hard to proc against other stamina builds (as they can dodge most of your attacks) and it's more designed around stamplar jabs/rapid strikes (or DKs with their billion DoTs), uptime is way too low for a stamblade (even if you were to run Thief mundus). But you'll find that out soon I guess :P
The reason S&B works well on light armor build is because you still benefit from your armor passives while blocking, that magicka regen isn't going anywhere. With medium, you stop any stam regen you've got so your armor passive becomes useless (where as Heavy would still benefit from Constitution).
In any case, it's likely you'll have more survivability than I do with my build (even with 1k more weapon dmg & 2k more stamina leading to some 15-20% stronger Vigors) just because of S&B and the blocking potential, but then again that's not really a medium "rogue/assassin" style build anymore based on evading damage, it's a "tank" build (that'd be better in heavy).1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).
You can supplement the resistances Lost from HA to medium. But you'd have to be willing to lose a little DMG to find a way to penetrate+ have additional healing done.
Sadly you'd be in the same boat as HA for penetration sources, but you'd be adding a 12% WD increase. Therefore, theoretically, you would only need to find a Regen set with a few passive defensive sets since running 2h/dual weld give a huge weapon DMG bonus.
But I haven't made a Stam build ever. Might want to try it out just to prove that there is a way to make medium armor effective without relating on dodge 100%.
Sure, you can run a defensive set and perhaps even S&B just to get equal defenses with heavy armor - but then you've already given up so much damage that you'd be better off in heavy armor.
Even the high damage setup I use right now gets only 128 weapon damage more than heavy armor - 4867 (medium) vs 4739 (same gear but heavy).
So if you were to use medium armor & a defensive set, you'd just lose a ton of damage/healing compared to wearing heavy armor and gain very little (if anything). Basis is that you'd need a set that helps you mitigate atleast 5% damage just to get even with heavy armor's mitigation (let alone healing).
But hey, give it a shot if you think it's doable - I'm also curious if there's actually anything I haven't tested already.
Couldn't you use CP to bring up the missing 5% defenses?
Well, you should already have your CPs assigned optimally - but with something like Impregnable you can remove points from Resistant.
Problem is, those points you've just removed can't really go anywhere - you already have 49 in Hardy & Elemental Defender and 56 in Ironclad, so they don't scale much at all anymore.
You could put the 43 points from Resistant to Medium Armor focus, but that just gets you even with Heavy Armor's mitigation, only except you now have less weapon damage (and healing) than you'd have in heavy.
This is what I got the stats to be.
You can get weapon DMG to be around 3200 and if a set procs you'll get around 3800 WD.
I'd say since I'm at 33k Stam and 3200 WD I'm in a minimum state for combat effective pvp. I'm at 6965 penetration but have access to major fracture through NB/S+B plus I have one mace (if against 26k resists I'll have 2600 penetration). Making my penetration around, 14845. Almost equal to spell penetration of 15280, which I use for my penetration baselines.
Regen is low, but that's because I use two DMG enchants instead of two Regen enchants. I could be at 1700 Regen. I'll probably swap one set to get a more Regen oriented set since I'm using hundings on the armor.
Well, give it a shot and see how that works out - but based on experience I can already tell that build would almost certainly do better as heavy armor one: better synergy with S&B and blocking, minimal weapon dmg loss, increased healing and increased mitigation without hitting the cap, as well as no real difference between sustain as your stam regen is pretty low.
You might also want to swap to Jewels of Misrule if you plan on using cloak/fear with your build.
No cloak, why waste the mag if I'm going to be found anyway. Though cloak gives minor protection. Mag dump is through mirage which grants minor resist buffs consistently plus dodge chance.
The build went briarheart for the crit heals plus burst potential. Adding dual weld bleed for an offensive heal but I went quick cloak for the 25% extra mitigation on AOE DMG.
HA gets a boost to Max health and healing received (aside from the easily gained resists). That's the real benefit of HA but if you use two siphoning spells plus a shadow spell, you'll match the healing received and have a little extra health. HA is redundant for nightblade.
S+b works on a LA build; it can work on a medium build. You don't need HA to make it work. I'd argue with MA, you get block+ dodge roll (if in CP) at will making s+B more BiS for medium armor users than the other 2 armors. Also slot s+b for that extra heal/reflect against sorcs.
But I'd have to test it in combat.
I tried Briar on a medium build - problem is that it is really, really hard to proc against other stamina builds (as they can dodge most of your attacks) and it's more designed around stamplar jabs/rapid strikes (or DKs with their billion DoTs), uptime is way too low for a stamblade (even if you were to run Thief mundus). But you'll find that out soon I guess :P
The reason S&B works well on light armor build is because you still benefit from your armor passives while blocking, that magicka regen isn't going anywhere. With medium, you stop any stam regen you've got so your armor passive becomes useless (where as Heavy would still benefit from Constitution).
In any case, it's likely you'll have more survivability than I do with my build (even with 1k more weapon dmg & 2k more stamina leading to some 15-20% stronger Vigors) just because of S&B and the blocking potential, but then again that's not really a medium "rogue/assassin" style build anymore based on evading damage, it's a "tank" build (that'd be better in heavy).
That makes sense for negatives on why brother
Briarheart can't proc the crit. Then bone pirate tatters makes sense; 1900 Stam recovery with 37k Stam to help offset the block taking up your Regen.
I probably wouldn't block everything but I get 1700 Stam cost for block and 1k on s+b. Sure HA can Regen Stam with block, but you'll be able to take those hits and deal out the DMG (if it can stick) since you'll have more crit chance to boost healing.
I swapped to HA and now realized your problem with HA lol. Dropped to 2700 WD and 1600 Stam Regen, but now I have 31k offensive resists and 35k defense stats.
MA definitely needs a buff; it shouldn't have penetration tied to it's passive since there are easy debuffs available plus mace passive. But I feel they could use an added minor stamina steal to make it sexier than HA. Wraith should be nerfed to only allow SD since WD stack is just as sexy as in either MA or HA armors (or have it boost ultimate DMG for each time you are hit to make it unique).Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Drakkdjinn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drakkdjinn wrote: »Drakkdjinn wrote: »UppGRAYxDD wrote: »As a Heavy armored magicka user since before the Imperial City patch, I disagree with alot of comments in here. I have stated before that light and heavy armor are both in a good place, but YES medium armor needs A SLIGHT BUFF. Just a little one, a huge buff would just set back the balance that ZoS is trying to create. A few ppl think it is the armor sets...this is incorrect, any character can use these hvy dmg sets by simply slotting weapons, 2 pieces on the body, and one accessory. I also disagree with any notion that the dodgeroll/shuffle combo is not an effective defensive measure. Mobility is the strength of medium armor and any good player knows this. The main problem I see is that most players dont want to think about positioning or plan attacks. They just roll in expecting to win and when things dont go their way they come to the forums and QQ and whine to the devs for a nerf. What ever happened to learning from failure? Theory crafting to overcome obstacles that you encounter? I understand being frustrated by getting whipped by another player constantly in duels or open world pvp, but dont just write it off as "they are using OP sets and need to get nerfed". Overcome the obstacles, improve your gameplay, and reap the rewards when you beat these so-called OP individuals through the power of thought and execution...
Not every character can use heavy sets. Its not just about using them just for the sake of using them.
Heavy armor comes in healthy jewellery meaning u have to give up ur main resources to run a heavy set. And its not only about finding a way to use heavy sets. Heavy sets such as fury and 7th legion require to constantly getting hit. They dont synergize with medium armor. Light/medium find limited use of heavy sets in general. But in heavy you can use those sets effectively and then just grab a light/medium sustain/dmg set to complete the build.
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crafted+Sets
Last time i checked fury and 7th legion are not craftable and they are both better than hundings rage.
LoL...just LoL.
Even if that were true, 7th and fury come in jewelry. 3 Piece Jewelry + 1h/shield or DW; voila you're wearing a "heavy" set with no pieces of heavy equipped. You're welcome.
So you basically didnt read a single thing of what i said and you just decided to post and spread your BS for whatever reason. Ok then, lets go again.
Its not "even if that were true". It is true. Hundings give you less than half of the wpn dmg fury will give you. 7th legion also gives you almost double the wpn dmg hundings give you and legion also has a healing attached to the 5 piece. Stop arguing facts. They make you look stupid.
And if you have actually read what i said then you wouldnt post ur stupid argument about wearing fury/legion in medium. Its not about using them just for the sake of using them. Putting on a heavy set in medium means giving up 3k+ stamina so there is no point in using it in the first place. And thats not even the biggest problem. The problem is that they dont synergize with medium armor. Those are two sets based on you constantly getting hit. Medium armor is based on you not getting hit. There is no synergy between them.
So yeah, please tell me again how is using fury in heavy armor the same as using fury in medium armor.
Making a solid PvP build is not simply mathing the highest potential weapon damage. And again, you don't need to wear a single piece of heavy to get the bonuses of Fury or Legion. Plus 7th Legion's 2-4 set bonuses are mediocre/wasted slots at best. Hundings is much more well rounded and fits many more stam class/builds as such. Any set that needs the trainingwheel CP gametype to be considered passable is sub-par and will fail you in competitive PvP (noCP). Also there's clever alch as well as Hundings in any armor type if you really have a hard-on for wpn dmg; you're not married to heavy armor to benefit from them, so stop whining.Edited by Drakkdjinn on August 25, 2017 4:33AM0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The highest damage sets for stamina anyway are tied to heavy for some reason.
Hard to beat fury/ seventh.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
DeHei✭✭✭✭✭A medium weared nightblade can do well, if right played. It is nothing more then a real assassination setup. In PvP you can play this, but if you really want intensive fights in short time, you will know that HA brings you more survivalbility without loosing much damage. Your burstdamage will be lower, but the damage over time could be higher, because you can compensate more pressure and in reason of that you are able to deal more pressure to others
DeHei - EP Magicka Templar AllrounderDe Hei(Youtube)1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Drakkdjinn wrote: »Drakkdjinn wrote: »Drakkdjinn wrote: »UppGRAYxDD wrote: »As a Heavy armored magicka user since before the Imperial City patch, I disagree with alot of comments in here. I have stated before that light and heavy armor are both in a good place, but YES medium armor needs A SLIGHT BUFF. Just a little one, a huge buff would just set back the balance that ZoS is trying to create. A few ppl think it is the armor sets...this is incorrect, any character can use these hvy dmg sets by simply slotting weapons, 2 pieces on the body, and one accessory. I also disagree with any notion that the dodgeroll/shuffle combo is not an effective defensive measure. Mobility is the strength of medium armor and any good player knows this. The main problem I see is that most players dont want to think about positioning or plan attacks. They just roll in expecting to win and when things dont go their way they come to the forums and QQ and whine to the devs for a nerf. What ever happened to learning from failure? Theory crafting to overcome obstacles that you encounter? I understand being frustrated by getting whipped by another player constantly in duels or open world pvp, but dont just write it off as "they are using OP sets and need to get nerfed". Overcome the obstacles, improve your gameplay, and reap the rewards when you beat these so-called OP individuals through the power of thought and execution...
Not every character can use heavy sets. Its not just about using them just for the sake of using them.
Heavy armor comes in healthy jewellery meaning u have to give up ur main resources to run a heavy set. And its not only about finding a way to use heavy sets. Heavy sets such as fury and 7th legion require to constantly getting hit. They dont synergize with medium armor. Light/medium find limited use of heavy sets in general. But in heavy you can use those sets effectively and then just grab a light/medium sustain/dmg set to complete the build.
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Crafted+Sets
Last time i checked fury and 7th legion are not craftable and they are both better than hundings rage.
LoL...just LoL.
Even if that were true, 7th and fury come in jewelry. 3 Piece Jewelry + 1h/shield or DW; voila you're wearing a "heavy" set with no pieces of heavy equipped. You're welcome.
So you basically didnt read a single thing of what i said and you just decided to post and spread your BS for whatever reason. Ok then, lets go again.
Its not "even if that were true". It is true. Hundings give you less than half of the wpn dmg fury will give you. 7th legion also gives you almost double the wpn dmg hundings give you and legion also has a healing attached to the 5 piece. Stop arguing facts. They make you look stupid.
And if you have actually read what i said then you wouldnt post ur stupid argument about wearing fury/legion in medium. Its not about using them just for the sake of using them. Putting on a heavy set in medium means giving up 3k+ stamina so there is no point in using it in the first place. And thats not even the biggest problem. The problem is that they dont synergize with medium armor. Those are two sets based on you constantly getting hit. Medium armor is based on you not getting hit. There is no synergy between them.
So yeah, please tell me again how is using fury in heavy armor the same as using fury in medium armor.
Making a solid PvP build is not simply mathing the highest potential weapon damage. And again, you don't need to wear a single piece of heavy to get the bonuses of Fury or Legion. Plus 7th Legion's 2-4 set bonuses are mediocre/wasted slots at best. Hundings is much more well rounded and fits many more stam class/builds as such. Any set that needs the trainingwheel CP gametype to be considered passable is sub-par and will fail you in competitive PvP (noCP). Also there's clever alch as well as Hundings in any armor type if you really have a hard-on for wpn dmg; you're not married to heavy armor to benefit from them, so stop whining.
And surprise surprise you again didnt read a single thing and repeated the same BS. Ill bold it this time. Maybe now you get it.
Not wearing heavy pieces on ur body means using jewellery. Using healthy jewellery means losing around 3k stamina which kinda beats the whole purpose of using those sets in the first place. And again, those sets dont synergize with medium. In medium armor you are supposed to be evasive and dodging dmg. Fury and legion require to get hit. They just dont synergize. Like you said, a solid PVP isnt just maths. You dont just put on those sets in medium just for the sake of using them and have the highest potential wpn dmg. When those sets dont synergize with ur playstyle ur build is going to be trash
7th legion 2-4 bonuses give wpn dmg, crit, hp regen. And you call them mediocre/wasted but wpn crit, max stam bonuses from hundings are much better? Is this a joke or do u actually believe that?
Clever alchemist has a cooldown of 45 seconds and lasts 15 seconds. Legion has 100% uptime even if u are fighting just one person. Again, is this a joke? Try to be a little more objective for a change. Its hard for anyone with common sense to even take you serious when you make those stupid comparisons.
And yes please tell me more about no CP and competitive PVP. In no CP medium is even worse. You simply just die to the first soul assault.
Next time you answer make sure to actually read first. Im not gonna keep arguing with someone who refuses to read what people tell him and just repeats the same crap over and over again. You either actually read so we can have a conversation or just dont bother answering.Edited by pieratsos on August 25, 2017 11:43AM1 -
Skander✭✭✭✭✭
✭A sorc complaining about heavy armor is like a nightblade complaining about curse breaking cloakI meme, but my memes are so truthful they hurt
-Elder Nightblades Online
Want competitive pvp while being outnumbered? Tough luck, the devs clearly said you have to die in those situations0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I still don't see heavy being acceptable in end game PVE at the highest level for DPS and heals so pretty sure heavy is fine.
The issues are in PVP. They have directly and indirectly nerfed dodge roll with cost increase and undodgeable attack; and nerfed any point of the extra stam recovery while sprinting or blocking.
Really; all 3 armor types have provided both offense in defense. It's just been that light and medium had passives that better buff damage while having to actively use defense skills like shields and roll dodge; while heavy has more passive defense but requires actives for crit and penetration. Right now it just seems mediums actives are mediocre.
Then there are sets bonuses. I get they want the berserker play style but it's just too constant that makes some of the sets for that a little too good. If there wasn't so much uptime then there would be a trade off.1 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So lets nerf heavy so only pve tanks will wear it right?
You still dont understand this armor types are situational. heavy meant to be tanky + dangerous with some sets while taking damage. and medium is for high crit, damage, some buffs to mobility etc
so if you want to play ganky and mobile play medium.
if you want to be tanky like warrior wear heavy.
if you want to play tanky and want to block, take some damage you are doing it wrong wearing medium. there is nothing op with heavy.
if you say fury + 7th legion etc is op, i said yes like 3 times already they are giving good amount of damage and better if not best weapon damage sets and i wouldnt mind if they get slight nerf that would be on point.
but if you reduce constitituon, resistances or healing erc that will kill heavy armor and most will effect magicka heavies.
imo medium need slight buff on resistances. if light sits on 10k and heavy around 20k (not exact numbers but yea) medium should sit around 15k resistances. other than that all other buffs are fine for medium.
I imagine most are in agreement that in PVP at least, it's not hard to be quite tanky and deal high burst damage in heavy as well as light.
Medium is a bit more squishy, but I don't think increasing the tankiness of medium is the best solution to balance the three armor types. Instead, slightly reduce tankiness of light and put both on a slightly higher tier of damage output compared to heavy.
A more enjoyable adjustment would result in 7/7 medium and 7/7 light hands down the best options for high burst damage but lower tier of damage mitigation (smaller shields for light), with 7/7 heavy much more tanky, with excellent sustain but somewhat lower tier of damage.
One way to achieve this would be:- tweak scaling so you get more benefits from full 7 pieces of any armor
- add phys pen passive to medium
- add spell damage passive to light
- require equipping full 5 piece to use active armor ability (or at least 2 pieces)
- slight reduction to base size of shields scaling on max magicka (dampen magic and hardened ward)
- slight reduction to sturdy and CP block passive
0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IcyDeadPeople wrote: »One way to achieve this would be:- tweak scaling so you get more benefits from full 7 pieces of any armor
- add phys pen passive to medium
- add spell damage passive to light
- require equipping full 5 piece to use active armor ability (or at least 2 pieces)
- slight reduction to base size of shields scaling on max magicka (dampen magic and hardened ward)
- slight reduction to sturdy and CP block passive
Just nitpicking here:
1) Agree on the 7 piece sentiment.
2) & 3) I believe the short time to kill is part of what forces people into heavy. Not so long ago the advise to not getting one shotted/ ganked/ facerolled was to stop being squishy and wear heavy/ get that health up and buff resistances. The offensive power from heavy armor passives (to write that sounds absurd) or heavy armor sets was just a bonus, not the idea to change to heavy.
So increasing offensive potential even further will just lure some more people from squishy medium to somewhat defensive heavy. Problem is the enormous weapon dmg heavy sets like fury, ravager, 7th. Turn them down a bit to make heavy armor not as offensive as LA and MA is now without making them unusable for anyone who looks for killing somebody instead of tiring somebody to death.
4) You already mentioned 2 piece req in the brackets, but the reason a 5 piece requirement would be bad is, that it hurts Tava Tanks in PvE and heavy armor mag builds in PvP - not just shuffle wearing HA PvP builds.
Also it won't stop the complaints about shuffle in general as an "unfair, rng-based, skillless method of defense" + NB in HA would have access to a shuffle-like mirage + cloak + Shadow Image + HA tankiness while everyone else can just obtain the last of this row, leading to complaints about defense-imbalance, since there would still be these "shuffle/mirage HA builds".
Also, when a restriction get's implemented, the HA skill Immovable needs a rework/ buff. It's borderline useless, the duration is too short and the costs too high. The passivesof immovale brute seem nice but it actually forces you to slot it on both bars.
5) Reducing base size of magickal wards will further force the max mag meta and shieldstacking. A solution to shield stacking could be either major/minor system, changes to CP, restrict shields from gaining major/ minor protection, making them scale with magicka + spell dmg or increasing the base shield strength but letting it scale much worse with max magicka. I remember I read that 1k max magicka means around 480-500 ward strength. Turn that down a bit. Shields are already not as big of an issue in no-cp.
6) Reduction of block CP and sturdy would hurt normal builds more than permablockers, just like the block cost changes from morrowind. As of now, flat block cost reduction get's taken into account after percentual reduction. Turn it around and you will get more balance.
To push MA I believe it is necessary to turn down the numbers or at least the strength of undodgeable abilites + granting a short post dodge roll window of buffs to healing or resistance tied to 5 piece MA bonus (similar to Phase CP passive from the steed constellation, probably a bit shorter). Also increase the Wind Walker Recovery Bonus by 0,5-1,5% p.P. to match Constitution earlier.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on August 25, 2017 12:55PM3 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So glad people like you don't have any actual influence over game balance.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank2 -
Crusades✭✭
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.Edited by DDuke on August 25, 2017 4:07PM2 -
Crusades✭✭
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.0 -
Crusades✭✭
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
130 weapon damage and 20% recovery + 1.6k crit value + 10-14% cost reduction + 15% sprint speed + 20% dodge cost reduction. At minimum. Nothing to see here.
And for your first paragraph: Fury, Legion and Ravager are sets, not HA per se. It was said a dozend times: tone these down but don't bicker at heavy in general.
Also, Alchemist is there in medium and light as well.
EDIT: forget that recovery boon - constitution does the same.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on August 25, 2017 5:10PM0 -
Crusades✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
130 weapon damage and 20% recovery + 1.6k crit value + 10-14% cost reduction + 15% sprint speed + 20% dodge cost reduction. At minimum. Nothing to see here.
And for your first paragraph: Fury, Legion and Ravager are sets, not HA per se. It was said a dozend times: tone these down but don't bicker at heavy in general.
Also, Alchemist is there in medium and light as well.
Exactly
0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
130 weapon damage and 20% recovery + 1.6k crit value + 10-14% cost reduction + 15% sprint speed + 20% dodge cost reduction. At minimum. Nothing to see here.
And for your first paragraph: Fury, Legion and Ravager are sets, not HA per se. It was said a dozend times: tone these down but don't bicker at heavy in general.
Also, Alchemist is there in medium and light as well.
I have to correct myself. Forget that 20% recovery. Constitution nullifies it. Pardon.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
130 weapon damage and 20% recovery
...and 20% recovery for a high damage build that aims to get the most out of the medium armor passive amounts to around 170-200 regen on a 5/1/1 medium build. The difference with my own build between 5/1/1 medium & 5/1/1 heavy is precisely 134 stamina regen, and Constitution is worth 270 regen.
You need 2k+ base stamina regen for Wind Walker to outperform Constitution.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »+ 1.6k crit value
6% crit chance difference between 5/1/1 heavy & 5/1/1 medium - it's mostly useful to boost your Vigor heals (which are still much weaker in medium)Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »+ 10-14% cost reduction
Here's what I wrote on previous page that should illustrate how much that cost reduction is really worth:Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Heavy costs you 2250 stamina
Surprise Attack in 5/1/1 Medium costs you 2066 stamina - Cost reduced by 184.
Surprise Attack in 7 Medium costs you 1974 stamina - Cost reduced by 276.
Shuffle in 5/1/1 Heavy costs you 4234 stamina
Shuffle in 5/1/1 Medium costs you 3888 stamina - Cost reduced by 346
Shuffle in 7 Medium costs you 3716 stamina - Cost reduced by 518
So even if you were spamming Shuffle (1.3s between casts btw) for some mysterious reason, the most you'd save per second would be around 440 stamina. For something more ordinary (e.g. Surprise Attack), you'd get the equivalent of roughly 235 stamina/second.
In reality though, you won't be spamming stamina skills every second as there'll be magicka costing things inbetween, CC breaks, dodge rolls, blocking etc.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »+ 15% sprint speed
Marginally useful, doesn't really help during the combat itselfChilly-McFreeze wrote: »+ 20% dodge cost reduction. At minimum. Nothing to see here.
Useless most of the time, thanks to most skills being undodgeable.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »And for your first paragraph: Fury, Legion and Ravager are sets, not HA per se. It was said a dozend times: tone these down but don't bicker at heavy in general.
Also, Alchemist is there in medium and light as well.
I'm fully aware of all this, I just brought up the highest damage setups you can imagine.
Even if you tone down these sets though, heavy will still be stronger than medium. The reason for that is that while you perform more or less equal to medium builds when fighting against someone with dodgeable attacks, you can actually survive undodgeable ones as well.
As long as evasion based builds are impossible to play, heavy will always outshine medium in PvP.Edited by DDuke on August 25, 2017 5:25PM2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on August 25, 2017 5:32PM0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
Oh, Siphoner (and multi-effect poisons) are mostly a problem for magicka builds tbh, especially ones that run Purge or Ritual. Siphoner basicly adds a negative debuff every light/heavy attack that eats half of Purge or Ritual of Retribution (and 1/5th of Extended Ritual), allowing you to keep the more important things on your opponent (heal debuff, DoTs etc).Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
Pretty much, yeah.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable?
Only Wardens (both bird morphs) & Templars (jabs/sweeps) have undodgeable spammables, rest have semi-spammable undodgeables (i.e. POTL/Purifying Light, Curse/Wrath, Jbeam, Shalks, Fossilize, Talons, Hurricane/Boundless Storm etc) & DoTs that once applied will outdamage whatever healing you might have with medium armor (as you don't have the +8% healing or +5% mitigation from heavy), as well as ultimates. The only dodgeable ultimates in the game are Incap (not Soul Harvest, for some reason), Bow ulti & 2H ulti - ironically all stamina ultimates for whatever reason.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
The only fights where dodge roll really makes a difference are fights vs magicka sorcs (frags/heavy attacks) and vs medium stamblades (every attack they have).Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Keep in mind that you might as well just run heavy armor to make up for a defensive set. You'll likely end up with the same survivability/sustain, but more damage.
Also, the problem with sets like Senche's Bite is the same same as it is with most medium sets - they're weak.
Senche's Bite: 430 weapon damage
Briarheart: 450 weapon damage
vs
Fury: 750 weapon damage
Ravager: 645 weapon damage
Legion: 500 weapon damage
They also tend to have significantly lower uptime.
Briarheart: 10% proc chance when dealing crit dmg, 10s duration 15s cooldown
Senche: 5s duration, timer begins at the start of the dodge roll (so around 3s to get any benefit from it) - impossible to keep up for long due to 33% cost modifier on dodge roll.
The heavy armor sets have no such cooldowns or limitations, they're just consistently good.
To add insult to injury, they actually added a good medium set in latest patch (Blooddrinker) - only for it to be actually far better in a heavy armor setup with Fury or Ravager & more weapon damage (and thus higher bleed ticks that get +20%).Edited by DDuke on August 25, 2017 5:56PM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.Edited by DDuke on August 25, 2017 6:00PM0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
Exactly, I can't one shot guys in heavy so instead of adapting you take the easy route and cry nerf...def. a learn to play issue. Close this thread nothing to see here
What's with the straw man?
No one here is saying heavy armor users should get one shot, or even that they should mitigate less damage.
The point is that heavy armor is able to get higher damage output than medium, while also gaining that higher mitigation/healing.
It's not rocket science.
It must be rocket science because you don't get it. The point is you CANT get higher damage then medium while also gaining higher mitigation.
Is that so? Still waiting for that medium build that gets more damage than Fury+Legion (or Fury+Ravager, or Fury+Alchemist).
Hell, the difference between just medium Hunding's & heavy Hunding's for example is between 100-130 weapon damage.
See you just proved that when wearing medium hundings you get 100-130 more weapon damage. That doesn't touch on the sustain which would clearly be better in medium.
The OP has stated PVP so it's clearly a can't kill issue and l2p.
If you want medium buffed ask for it don't try and ruin another set to get what you want.
Zos nerf this thread and close it.
Right there. If MA is too weak compared to LA and HA - buff MA instead of nerfing everything around.
I know exactly where this is heading, so I may say it myself.
"Constitution beats regeneration in an evironment where Siphoner CP and cost increasing poisons exist. Also sprinting and blocking shuts down regen completely."
Right. But those circumstances exist for low-regen, no cost reduction HA users as well. Also, with the MW changes to CP and skill costs, Siphoner CP addition was stupid to begin with. Cost Poison are bad for the game as well. But they don't shut down regen.
"Blocking, mitigation, heals and wards are better than dodge rolling when everyone and their mother spam undodgeable skills."
So, the problem is that dodge rolling isn't working. Buff rolls or reduce undodgeables. Does some class spams have to be undodgeable? On the other hand - there is a whole lot of stuff that is dodgeable. And when you dodge, it's far superior to block or armor mitigation. You negate all damage and status effects.
"Heavy armor sets make it possible to close the hole that the passives intentional left - damage for HA users."
Yes, and so do defensive LA sets like wizard's reposte. Is it necessary to gain 600-700 weapon dmg from a single set? Certainly not. So take a look at these instead of the whole armor tree. Turn down the damage boon a bit but don't make them useless or change HOW they work. They synergize so well with heavy armor. Get hit to get stronger - and mitigate the hits with your high resistance. Good concept. Just like these sets that depend on dodge rolling. They harmonize well with medium armor. You know, senche's bite for dmg, eternal hunting, cowards gear and (to an extend) cursader for defensive. Heavy builds up slowly while medium just needs one action to gain full bonus. Sounds good to me. Might build more on that.
Problem isn't undodgeable skills. I think we all remember when they removed undodgeable skills from the game which let everyone was rolling around avoiding damage.
That certainly is the problem. The reason people were rolling around 24/7 avoiding damage is because there wasn't a stacking cost modifier on dodge rolls.
People still dodge a lot in stamblade vs stamblade duels these days (zero undodgeable attacks besides PI/Axe Bleed), and those fights still end far quicker than some pet sorc fights for instance.
I mean, if you can't evade damage - what are you supposed to do, tank it? Heal through it? These are all things that heavy armor does much better (and I wouldn't want to tank better in medium armor).
No, they need to find a way to make evasion based builds viable again.
This I agree with; as well as nerf the uptime of the heavy armor damage sets...0
