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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
PVP - Any plans on balancing heavy armor finally?
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I cant believe how people claim heavy is op then bragging about 7th legion and fury. its a set. it wprl well with heavy but heavy armor is not a problem. i like ethernal hunt set. i cant roll dodge much in heavy. so medium is op? that is non sense.
I just want to asl something to people believe that heavy has better sustain + damage + defence than medium. please answer.
why no one invites heavy armor dds to their trial raids or even vet dungeons?
Because medium has more potential dmg than heavy. No one is arguing that. But PVP isnt the same. You are not just building for dmg in PVP and when you combine everything together then heavy can achieve about the same dmg as medium. Your perspective in the subject of dmg is very naive.
And yes heavy armor passives may be somewhat balanced but when combined everything together (mechanics, sets etc) it does give heavy armor the edge. Armor abilities must absolutely be restricted to their respective armor for starters and then take it from there.
I dont mind if they restrict armor skills. People clearly said heavy armor needs nerf then talked about particular sets and skills. I have my heavy magdk (as well as light sorc medium nb heavy nb heavydk stam etc) but i love it most but i dont use any of the sets people talking about (because im magicka) . light armor dks hitting me like a truck also i got hit from stamnb medium armor assasination scourge (assassins will) 13k in a duel while having 26k phy. resist. and that guy was kiting me and going invisible and yea he doesnt come out of stealth just because i used ember earlier. he burst me down with fear incap scourge while he just healed through all of my damage and as you know magdk heavy cant burst as other characters. i dont think that guy would be able to kill me if he was wearing heavy because he would loose his weapon damage stack when he runs away with invisibility. he choosed to be bursty by wearing medium.
if zos nerfs heavy armor just because 7th legion or fury etc i dont think i will enjoy playing my magdk heavy anymore. sustain is barely enough with 1.4k regen + desert rose. +i personally think heavy armor passives are not op. i will say it again just few weapon damage sets works well. may be considered op idk never tested them.
#leaveheavymagdkalone #enoughnerfsalready
Restricting armor skills is actually a big nerf to heavy. And then take it from there. Maybe wrath needs to be reworked. You can use dmg sets in heavy if u really want dmg. As far as ur duel is concerned well you shouldnt lose to a medium stamblade on a heavy mDK unless he was on a duelling build and u were not.
In that case there is no point in talking about armor balance.1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I cant believe how people claim heavy is op then bragging about 7th legion and fury. its a set. it wprl well with heavy but heavy armor is not a problem. i like ethernal hunt set. i cant roll dodge much in heavy. so medium is op? that is non sense.
I just want to asl something to people believe that heavy has better sustain + damage + defence than medium. please answer.
why no one invites heavy armor dds to their trial raids or even vet dungeons?
Because medium has more potential dmg than heavy. No one is arguing that. But PVP isnt the same. You are not just building for dmg in PVP and when you combine everything together then heavy can achieve about the same dmg as medium. Your perspective in the subject of dmg is very naive.
And yes heavy armor passives may be somewhat balanced but when combined everything together (mechanics, sets etc) it does give heavy armor the edge. Armor abilities must absolutely be restricted to their respective armor for starters and then take it from there.
I dont mind if they restrict armor skills. People clearly said heavy armor needs nerf then talked about particular sets and skills. I have my heavy magdk (as well as light sorc medium nb heavy nb heavydk stam etc) but i love it most but i dont use any of the sets people talking about (because im magicka) . light armor dks hitting me like a truck also i got hit from stamnb medium armor assasination scourge (assassins will) 13k in a duel while having 26k phy. resist. and that guy was kiting me and going invisible and yea he doesnt come out of stealth just because i used ember earlier. he burst me down with fear incap scourge while he just healed through all of my damage and as you know magdk heavy cant burst as other characters. i dont think that guy would be able to kill me if he was wearing heavy because he would loose his weapon damage stack when he runs away with invisibility. he choosed to be bursty by wearing medium.
if zos nerfs heavy armor just because 7th legion or fury etc i dont think i will enjoy playing my magdk heavy anymore. sustain is barely enough with 1.4k regen + desert rose. +i personally think heavy armor passives are not op. i will say it again just few weapon damage sets works well. may be considered op idk never tested them.
#leaveheavymagdkalone #enoughnerfsalready
Restricting armor skills is actually a big nerf to heavy. And then take it from there. Maybe wrath needs to be reworked. You can use dmg sets in heavy if u really want dmg. As far as ur duel is concerned well you shouldnt lose to a medium stamblade on a heavy mDK unless he was on a duelling build and u were not.
In that case there is no point in talking about armor balance.
So it's better to get 600-700 weapon dmg from a set than 200 from passives? Sure...0 -
Cyrediath✭✭✭Well i just wanted to give an example. And yea stamblades can cloak against dks. they use shadow, teleport and cloak and come back again when they are full health. (potions etc) its just a different kind of play style and it fits to medium armor nbs also thernal hunt fits well.
If you want to stand there and fight against heavy armor face to face you cant do it with medium armor and you shouldnt be able to. About wp damage heavy sets they are situational. for an example fury requires you to get "critically" hit and it will increase your weapon damage by 30 for 6 seconds can be stacked 25 times. it just works well againts some duel builds. for an example it wont again teleporting nbs they can just fear you, retreat and reset your stacks. zos can nerf it to be stackable 20-15 times. it looks lile a big nerf but yea.. when you add major brutality it gives lpts of damage.
Anyways its not related with heavy armor. its heavy set. that doesnt mean hea y armor is op. medium armor had viper + redmountain + widowmaker. that time people didnt say medium is op. they said this sets are op. which they were. if you imagine a character (noncp) + not using shield + you have major breach there womt be much difference in resistances. heavy armor passives doesnt make you op. Mag sorcerers (if they have some stamina resource + sustain) they are much more tankier than any heavy armor build (except ones specifically for tanking) . Medium armor doesnt have that. they dont have spammable shields nor enough resistances to mitigate. it is true. but i dont see anything wrong with ""heavy armor pasives""2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well i just wanted to give an example. And yea stamblades can cloak against dks. they use shadow, teleport and cloak and come back again when they are full health. (potions etc) its just a different kind of play style and it fits to medium armor nbs also thernal hunt fits well.
Well, it was a bad example that only highlighted your own mistakes in that fight. And no, a stamblade cannot cloak against a DK - you're dead to DoTs, Skorias, Fossilize, Leap & all the other undodgeable shite long before you manage to make any distance to the Shadow Image.
The only way you even survive is by having a Shadow Image up before the fight, and that only buys you an escape (not a way to win against the permablocking nooblord).If you want to stand there and fight against heavy armor face to face you cant do it with medium armor and you shouldnt be able to. About wp damage heavy sets they are situational. for an example fury requires you to get "critically" hit and it will increase your weapon damage by 30 for 6 seconds can be stacked 25 times. it just works well againts some duel builds. for an example it wont again teleporting nbs they can just fear you, retreat and reset your stacks. zos can nerf it to be stackable 20-15 times. it looks lile a big nerf but yea.. when you add major brutality it gives lpts of damage.
Wow... so I shouldn't even be able to fight against a heavy armor user? Just wow.
You have some really, really biased views there.
So you think it's perfectly ok that heavy armor is good against everything, but medium has to run away when meeting someone in heavy with undodgeable shite? Your lack of logic is astounding.
And no, you can't "reset" someone's Fury stacks at will, even in 1v1 there are still DoTs that tick on your opponent and keep Fury up (i.e. axe bleed, which you can't even control). Needless to stay, you also can't expect to beat someone without dealing damage to that person.Anyways its not related with heavy armor. its heavy set. that doesnt mean hea y armor is op. medium armor had viper + redmountain + widowmaker. that time people didnt say medium is op. they said this sets are op. which they were. if you imagine a character (noncp) + not using shield + you have major breach there womt be much difference in resistances. heavy armor passives doesnt make you op. Mag sorcerers (if they have some stamina resource + sustain) they are much more tankier than any heavy armor build (except ones specifically for tanking) . Medium armor doesnt have that. they dont have spammable shields nor enough resistances to mitigate. it is true. but i dont see anything wrong with ""heavy armor pasives""
Heavy Armor is more or less balanced with Light as far as I can tell. What it's not balanced with is medium, because medium is garbage.
As long as you have undodgeable shite as the heavy armor user (and a counter to cloak vs stamblades), you can expect to beat any medium armor stamina build in the game with zero effort or skill required from your part.
The reason no one would say "medium is op" (this is a lie btw, there were people claiming that lol) is because that is absurd.Edited by DDuke on August 23, 2017 10:03PM3 -
Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭IcyDeadPeople wrote: »It's rather simple, Med needs an armor buff. Windwalker is basically useless, you can manage with heavy pretty effectively. Thats why blackrose was so powerful and killed med.
Windwalker needs to be looked at, its not horrible but who is slotting med armor for the regen/stam reduction bonus's? I mean you'll take it but I can HA in heavy armor and get from rapid mending and when Iget hit I have constitution giving me resources.
So id like to see windwalker keep the cost reduction bonus but replace the stam recovery with crit. I'll live with getting rolled if I can proc more damage.
Medium already has weapon crit buff (Dexterity). I wouldn't remove the regen/ stam cost reduction bonus, but I'd suggest to add armor penetration to medium (similar to light passive Concentration) and add spell damage to light passives (similar to med passive Agility).
I think it's OK if heavy has strong sustain from Constitution which is useful for tanking, but would be a bit more tradeoff in terms of damage if 5pc light / medium have the armor pen/spell pen and weapon damage/spell damage bonuses.
Light armor does not need a buff with the massive amount of penetration it provides along with the shield.
If medium gains access to both pen and dmg then light armor should too. Then it would look like:
Medium armor:
Pen
Dmg
Dodge
Light armor:
Pen
Dmg
Shields
Light doesnt need a buff but giving medium pen while not giving light dmg is out of balance as well. Currently we (generally) build to compensate for what our passives lack, if we have all of our needs met in our passives and can build for pure damage it becomes too strong.Edited by Inarre on August 23, 2017 11:36PM2 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lmao I knew it. The Morrowind heavy nerf just wasn't enough for you guys huh? I really think this is a concerted effort to remove heavy from the game.
Power Wealth And Influence.2 -
Cyrediath✭✭✭Well i just wanted to give an example. And yea stamblades can cloak against dks. they use shadow, teleport and cloak and come back again when they are full health. (potions etc) its just a different kind of play style and it fits to medium armor nbs also thernal hunt fits well.
Well, it was a bad example that only highlighted your own mistakes in that fight. And no, a stamblade cannot cloak against a DK - you're dead to DoTs, Skorias, Fossilize, Leap & all the other undodgeable shite long before you manage to make any distance to the Shadow Image.
The only way you even survive is by having a Shadow Image up before the fight, and that only buys you an escape (not a way to win against the permablocking nooblord).If you want to stand there and fight against heavy armor face to face you cant do it with medium armor and you shouldnt be able to. About wp damage heavy sets they are situational. for an example fury requires you to get "critically" hit and it will increase your weapon damage by 30 for 6 seconds can be stacked 25 times. it just works well againts some duel builds. for an example it wont again teleporting nbs they can just fear you, retreat and reset your stacks. zos can nerf it to be stackable 20-15 times. it looks lile a big nerf but yea.. when you add major brutality it gives lpts of damage.
Wow... so I shouldn't even be able to fight against a heavy armor user? Just wow.
You have some really, really biased views there.
So you think it's perfectly ok that heavy armor is good against everything, but medium has to run away when meeting someone in heavy with undodgeable shite? Your lack of logic is astounding.
And no, you can't "reset" someone's Fury stacks at will, even in 1v1 there are still DoTs that tick on your opponent and keep Fury up (i.e. axe bleed, which you can't even control). Needless to stay, you also can't expect to beat someone without dealing damage to that person.Anyways its not related with heavy armor. its heavy set. that doesnt mean hea y armor is op. medium armor had viper + redmountain + widowmaker. that time people didnt say medium is op. they said this sets are op. which they were. if you imagine a character (noncp) + not using shield + you have major breach there womt be much difference in resistances. heavy armor passives doesnt make you op. Mag sorcerers (if they have some stamina resource + sustain) they are much more tankier than any heavy armor build (except ones specifically for tanking) . Medium armor doesnt have that. they dont have spammable shields nor enough resistances to mitigate. it is true. but i dont see anything wrong with ""heavy armor pasives""
Heavy Armor is more or less balanced with Light as far as I can tell. What it's not balanced with is medium, because medium is garbage.
As long as you have undodgeable shite as the heavy armor user (and a counter to cloak vs stamblades), you can expect to beat any medium armor stamina build in the game with zero effort or skill required from your part.
The reason no one would say "medium is op" (this is a lie btw, there were people claiming that lol) is because that is absurd.
I dont say you should fight against heavy. i said not face to face just standing there and spamming skills while blpcking or something. thats heavy armor style. medium armor is more dynamic and yea medium armor nbs can duel against dk if you are a dk and pceu player i will show you some medium nbs i bet you will loose against with your heavydk (i dont thinl you have i think you have only medium and trying to brainwash people into heavy is op) but yea.
if you play heavy style with your medium you will loose. heavy also cant play like medium. sneaking/ganking/running around / roll dpdgeing is not easy as it is in medium.
Edit; you cant say if something is op or not by observing 2 different players i was just giving example from my duels but thats how your brain works so yea.
you cant make medium as tough as heavy thats never going to happen. medium is bis fır pve + some players doing amazing job in medium at duels no one cares if you are not one of them. yes heavy is easier ro play and you will have hard time with medium kiting enemy but thats the point.
medium is bis for stamina builds for pve and very viavle in duels. after all things you said if someonr wants buff to heavy because he/she wants to have good pve heavy dd builds , you have no right to say its not going to happen. thats balance for you right?Edited by Cyrediath on August 24, 2017 3:27AM0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭As always DDuke is as biased as it can get when it comes to medium armor. Your math comparing fully buffed setups is just a pathetic makeup to support an agenda that holds no value in any setting other than dueling.
That is because fights in open world and BGs both rely heavily on the impact of initial contact. The heavy setup you chose to compare medium armor with needs significant build-up time and gets reset frequently.
This guy is so hilarious, didnt change in 3 years. I still remember his "I wanna be an assassin agenda" from back in the days. Golden.Edited by Mojomonkeyman on August 24, 2017 8:58AMKoma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy5 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Feel free to adjust fury and legion. No issues with me.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »I cant believe how people claim heavy is op then bragging about 7th legion and fury. its a set. it wprl well with heavy but heavy armor is not a problem. i like ethernal hunt set. i cant roll dodge much in heavy. so medium is op? that is non sense.
I just want to asl something to people believe that heavy has better sustain + damage + defence than medium. please answer.
why no one invites heavy armor dds to their trial raids or even vet dungeons?
Because medium has more potential dmg than heavy. No one is arguing that. But PVP isnt the same. You are not just building for dmg in PVP and when you combine everything together then heavy can achieve about the same dmg as medium. Your perspective in the subject of dmg is very naive.
And yes heavy armor passives may be somewhat balanced but when combined everything together (mechanics, sets etc) it does give heavy armor the edge. Armor abilities must absolutely be restricted to their respective armor for starters and then take it from there.
I dont mind if they restrict armor skills. People clearly said heavy armor needs nerf then talked about particular sets and skills. I have my heavy magdk (as well as light sorc medium nb heavy nb heavydk stam etc) but i love it most but i dont use any of the sets people talking about (because im magicka) . light armor dks hitting me like a truck also i got hit from stamnb medium armor assasination scourge (assassins will) 13k in a duel while having 26k phy. resist. and that guy was kiting me and going invisible and yea he doesnt come out of stealth just because i used ember earlier. he burst me down with fear incap scourge while he just healed through all of my damage and as you know magdk heavy cant burst as other characters. i dont think that guy would be able to kill me if he was wearing heavy because he would loose his weapon damage stack when he runs away with invisibility. he choosed to be bursty by wearing medium.
if zos nerfs heavy armor just because 7th legion or fury etc i dont think i will enjoy playing my magdk heavy anymore. sustain is barely enough with 1.4k regen + desert rose. +i personally think heavy armor passives are not op. i will say it again just few weapon damage sets works well. may be considered op idk never tested them.
#leaveheavymagdkalone #enoughnerfsalready
Restricting armor skills is actually a big nerf to heavy. And then take it from there. Maybe wrath needs to be reworked. You can use dmg sets in heavy if u really want dmg. As far as ur duel is concerned well you shouldnt lose to a medium stamblade on a heavy mDK unless he was on a duelling build and u were not.
In that case there is no point in talking about armor balance.
So it's better to get 600-700 weapon dmg from a set than 200 from passives? Sure...
But yes, remove wrath. Heavy is a defensive armor. Its not for dmg. You can still do dmg by using offensive sets if u want. But it shouldnt have a passive that is marginally worse by the medium armor passive.
0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well i just wanted to give an example. And yea stamblades can cloak against dks. they use shadow, teleport and cloak and come back again when they are full health. (potions etc) its just a different kind of play style and it fits to medium armor nbs also thernal hunt fits well.
Well, it was a bad example that only highlighted your own mistakes in that fight. And no, a stamblade cannot cloak against a DK - you're dead to DoTs, Skorias, Fossilize, Leap & all the other undodgeable shite long before you manage to make any distance to the Shadow Image.
The only way you even survive is by having a Shadow Image up before the fight, and that only buys you an escape (not a way to win against the permablocking nooblord).If you want to stand there and fight against heavy armor face to face you cant do it with medium armor and you shouldnt be able to. About wp damage heavy sets they are situational. for an example fury requires you to get "critically" hit and it will increase your weapon damage by 30 for 6 seconds can be stacked 25 times. it just works well againts some duel builds. for an example it wont again teleporting nbs they can just fear you, retreat and reset your stacks. zos can nerf it to be stackable 20-15 times. it looks lile a big nerf but yea.. when you add major brutality it gives lpts of damage.
Wow... so I shouldn't even be able to fight against a heavy armor user? Just wow.
You have some really, really biased views there.
So you think it's perfectly ok that heavy armor is good against everything, but medium has to run away when meeting someone in heavy with undodgeable shite? Your lack of logic is astounding.
And no, you can't "reset" someone's Fury stacks at will, even in 1v1 there are still DoTs that tick on your opponent and keep Fury up (i.e. axe bleed, which you can't even control). Needless to stay, you also can't expect to beat someone without dealing damage to that person.Anyways its not related with heavy armor. its heavy set. that doesnt mean hea y armor is op. medium armor had viper + redmountain + widowmaker. that time people didnt say medium is op. they said this sets are op. which they were. if you imagine a character (noncp) + not using shield + you have major breach there womt be much difference in resistances. heavy armor passives doesnt make you op. Mag sorcerers (if they have some stamina resource + sustain) they are much more tankier than any heavy armor build (except ones specifically for tanking) . Medium armor doesnt have that. they dont have spammable shields nor enough resistances to mitigate. it is true. but i dont see anything wrong with ""heavy armor pasives""
Heavy Armor is more or less balanced with Light as far as I can tell. What it's not balanced with is medium, because medium is garbage.
As long as you have undodgeable shite as the heavy armor user (and a counter to cloak vs stamblades), you can expect to beat any medium armor stamina build in the game with zero effort or skill required from your part.
The reason no one would say "medium is op" (this is a lie btw, there were people claiming that lol) is because that is absurd.
I dont say you should fight against heavy. i said not face to face just standing there and spamming skills while blpcking or something. thats heavy armor style. medium armor is more dynamic and yea medium armor nbs can duel against dk if you are a dk and pceu player i will show you some medium nbs i bet you will loose against with your heavydk (i dont thinl you have i think you have only medium and trying to brainwash people into heavy is op) but yea.
I'm sorry but after your previous "example", I don't think you're qualified on giving advice on anything (especially medium armor). I know every good player on EU megaserver, I play there myself - there is no medium armor NB that could beat a good heavy magicka DK (or even a semi-decent one) without playing a tank style build (that is better in heavy) with S&B.
There are no counters to them, no way to outheal damage, no way to cloak, no way to evade damage - you simply lose, period.
And no, I don't have a heavy armor magicka DK (though I could make a good one in about 5 minutes) - I have no interest in playing one. I've got a light armor one though which I don't play much.if you play heavy style with your medium you will loose. heavy also cant play like medium. sneaking/ganking/running around / roll dpdgeing is not easy as it is in medium.
Who said anything about "playing heavy style"?- You can dodge roll all you want against a DK or most other builds in the game, it doesn't change a thing when almost everything hits you through the dodge roll.
- Sneaking/running around doesn't really work when you've got someone spamming gap closers, snares, roots & stuns at you. Nor does sneaking/running really put you into position to win a fight.
- And ganking... Ganking doesn't really exist anymore. Not after proc set nerfs and the removal of sneak attack modifier in Morrowind patch. The few targets you can gank are mostly squishies in light/medium armor not wearing 7 impen.
Edit; you cant say if something is op or not by observing 2 different players i was just giving example from my duels but thats how your brain works so yea.
you cant make medium as tough as heavy thats never going to happen. medium is bis fır pve + some players doing amazing job in medium at duels no one cares if you are not one of them. yes heavy is easier ro play and you will have hard time with medium kiting enemy but thats the point.
medium is bis for stamina builds for pve and very viavle in duels. after all things you said if someonr wants buff to heavy because he/she wants to have good pve heavy dd builds , you have no right to say its not going to happen. thats balance for you right?
LOL
Show me one player in medium armor who does well in duels (or even open world, when getting focused by undodgeable shite). Just one.
You keep going back to the *** poor "medium is good in pve, heavy is not so everything is fine" argument, yet overlook some really crucial aspects:- Medium is better for DPS in PvE, because crit actually matters there. In PvP, any crit chance you have has significantly lower value due to impenetrable & damage shields.
- Heavy sets that are strong in PvP like Fury & Legion require you to get hit often. In PvE, only the tank is guaranteed to get hit often so those sets don't work there. Fury also requires you to get crit, not hit - so it doesn't work at all in PvE.
- There are medium armor sets that are actually very strong in PvE (TFS, NMG, Sunder, Hundings, Spriggan, VO, WM etc), but which are weak in PvP.
- You need healing & mitigation in PvP (which heavy armor gets), you don't need that in PvE as DD (only enough health to survive mechanics).
As stated before, I'm all for making heavy armor good for PvE DPS - but in PvP it grossly outperforms medium armor - and this is not an opinion, it's a fact backed by numbers and voiced by the more experienced players in this game.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »As always DDuke is as biased as it can get when it comes to medium armor. Your math comparing fully buffed setups is just a pathetic makeup to support an agenda that holds no value in any setting other than dueling.
That is because fights in open world and BGs both rely heavily on the impact of initial contact. The heavy setup you chose to compare medium armor with needs significant build-up time and gets reset frequently.
This guy is so hilarious, didnt change in 3 years. I still remember his "I wanna be an assassin agenda" from back in the days. Golden.
Poor Koma, still salty I've ganked you over a dozen times?
I have no agenda beyond making medium armor enjoyable in PvP, which it currently isn't. Not in duels, not in open world.
"Initial contact" hasn't mattered for a good couple of months now (ever since removal of sneak attack modifier).
I know a lot of old school players have abandoned the PvP and haven't played it for a while (and thus might not be aware of current meta game). Are you one of these players?
Also, there is no "reseting" these sets unless you run zero DoTs with your build - and in 1vX you're bound to get hit all the time.
What's so wrong in wanting to play an "assassin" or "rogue" character?0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What about those tanks that use Tava?@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade1 -
the_man_of_steal✭✭✭Heavy is absolutely fine it is the bonuses from certain heavy sets that you are complaining about, you just dont know it. Also shuffle and vigor are insane costs on stam so if certain sets are tweaked, you won't find as many issues. Poisons also help with sustain.2
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Cyrediath✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).Edited by DDuke on August 24, 2017 5:29PM1 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭One major point imo:
With the plethora of skills now undodgeable, but ZOS made them blockable instead (ex: soul assault). The whole point of running around in medium armor is having very high stamina regeneration, you cant rly block that much without *** up the entire point of your build, stamina regen.
Blocking soul assault (only counter) takes over 4s, during that time you forfeit anything from 4k to 6k+ stamina through regeneration without even adding the actual block cost.
PC EU
PvP only1 -
apostate9✭✭✭✭✭Heavy armor is already balanced. It is medium that needs to be looked at, and buffed.
0 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »As always DDuke is as biased as it can get when it comes to medium armor. Your math comparing fully buffed setups is just a pathetic makeup to support an agenda that holds no value in any setting other than dueling.
That is because fights in open world and BGs both rely heavily on the impact of initial contact. The heavy setup you chose to compare medium armor with needs significant build-up time and gets reset frequently.
This guy is so hilarious, didnt change in 3 years. I still remember his "I wanna be an assassin agenda" from back in the days. Golden.
Poor Koma, still salty I've ganked you over a dozen times?
I have no agenda beyond making medium armor enjoyable in PvP, which it currently isn't. Not in duels, not in open world.
"Initial contact" hasn't mattered for a good couple of months now (ever since removal of sneak attack modifier).
I know a lot of old school players have abandoned the PvP and haven't played it for a while (and thus might not be aware of current meta game). Are you one of these players?
Also, there is no "reseting" these sets unless you run zero DoTs with your build - and in 1vX you're bound to get hit all the time.
What's so wrong in wanting to play an "assassin" or "rogue" character?
You are a funny little guy. You kept on losing vs certain builds back in the day, your answer was a medium armor nightblade promo campaign on the forums. Same thing here. You just can't take losses like a man. Instead you keep on crying and making up stories.
Keep on ganking. The last time I've seen you in BGs made me think you'd be better off doing some PvE.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).
You can supplement the resistances Lost from HA to medium. But you'd have to be willing to lose a little DMG to find a way to penetrate+ have additional healing done.
Sadly you'd be in the same boat as HA for penetration sources, but you'd be adding a 12% WD increase. Therefore, theoretically, you would only need to find a Regen set with a few passive defensive sets since running 2h/dual weld give a huge weapon DMG bonus.
But I haven't made a Stam build ever. Might want to try it out just to prove that there is a way to make medium armor effective without relating on dodge 100%.Edited by Minno on August 24, 2017 6:44PMMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »As always DDuke is as biased as it can get when it comes to medium armor. Your math comparing fully buffed setups is just a pathetic makeup to support an agenda that holds no value in any setting other than dueling.
That is because fights in open world and BGs both rely heavily on the impact of initial contact. The heavy setup you chose to compare medium armor with needs significant build-up time and gets reset frequently.
This guy is so hilarious, didnt change in 3 years. I still remember his "I wanna be an assassin agenda" from back in the days. Golden.
Poor Koma, still salty I've ganked you over a dozen times?
I have no agenda beyond making medium armor enjoyable in PvP, which it currently isn't. Not in duels, not in open world.
"Initial contact" hasn't mattered for a good couple of months now (ever since removal of sneak attack modifier).
I know a lot of old school players have abandoned the PvP and haven't played it for a while (and thus might not be aware of current meta game). Are you one of these players?
Also, there is no "reseting" these sets unless you run zero DoTs with your build - and in 1vX you're bound to get hit all the time.
What's so wrong in wanting to play an "assassin" or "rogue" character?
You are a funny little guy. You kept on losing vs certain builds back in the day, your answer was a medium armor nightblade promo campaign on the forums. Same thing here. You just can't take losses like a man. Instead you keep on crying and making up stories.
Keep on ganking. The last time I've seen you in BGs made me think you'd be better off doing some PvE.
I dont know when you would've seen me in BGs, considering I've done maybe 10 BG matches in total with premade groups (after I've been asked to by a friend), didn't lose a single one of those.
I'm not particularly interested in doing BGs as long as there is no ladder & MMR.
Also you seem to have quite selective memory - my response to stamblade being garbage back in the stam dk meta days wasn't to just "campaign on the forums", it was to create the strongest and most influential (heavy armor) magicka templar build this game has ever seen.
Which is kinda funny, as it started off as a demonstration on how bad stamina NB was/is against certain types of builds.
I did not lose to a single stamina nightblade when I played my magplar (nor did any good stam DK or magicka sorc back then) - so I guess what I had to say on the forums did have some merit.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).
You can supplement the resistances Lost from HA to medium. But you'd have to be willing to lose a little DMG to find a way to penetrate+ have additional healing done.
Sadly you'd be in the same boat as HA for penetration sources, but you'd be adding a 12% WD increase. Therefore, theoretically, you would only need to find a Regen set with a few passive defensive sets since running 2h/dual weld give a huge weapon DMG bonus.
But I haven't made a Stam build ever. Might want to try it out just to prove that there is a way to make medium armor effective without relating on dodge 100%.
Sure, you can run a defensive set and perhaps even S&B just to get equal defenses with heavy armor - but then you've already given up so much damage that you'd be better off in heavy armor.
Even the high damage setup I use right now gets only 128 weapon damage more than heavy armor - 4867 (medium) vs 4739 (same gear but heavy).
So if you were to use medium armor & a defensive set, you'd just lose a ton of damage/healing compared to wearing heavy armor and gain very little (if anything). Basis is that you'd need a set that helps you mitigate atleast 5% damage just to get even with heavy armor's mitigation (let alone healing).
But hey, give it a shot if you think it's doable - I'm also curious if there's actually anything I haven't tested already.Edited by DDuke on August 24, 2017 7:03PM0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).
You can supplement the resistances Lost from HA to medium. But you'd have to be willing to lose a little DMG to find a way to penetrate+ have additional healing done.
Sadly you'd be in the same boat as HA for penetration sources, but you'd be adding a 12% WD increase. Therefore, theoretically, you would only need to find a Regen set with a few passive defensive sets since running 2h/dual weld give a huge weapon DMG bonus.
But I haven't made a Stam build ever. Might want to try it out just to prove that there is a way to make medium armor effective without relating on dodge 100%.
The thing is, with all the great sets available to heavy armor, you get dmg, mitigation, sustain and no real weakness to your build.
Try doing that with medium armor, youd loose dmg, youd have(kinda) mitigation, to have sustain youd still rely mostly on stamina regeneration, all the heavy hitters in this game still requires you to block if you want to not get blown up by them, so youre back to square one, where you will shut down the point of your build...stamregen.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).
You can supplement the resistances Lost from HA to medium. But you'd have to be willing to lose a little DMG to find a way to penetrate+ have additional healing done.
Sadly you'd be in the same boat as HA for penetration sources, but you'd be adding a 12% WD increase. Therefore, theoretically, you would only need to find a Regen set with a few passive defensive sets since running 2h/dual weld give a huge weapon DMG bonus.
But I haven't made a Stam build ever. Might want to try it out just to prove that there is a way to make medium armor effective without relating on dodge 100%.
Sure, you can run a defensive set and perhaps even S&B just to get equal defenses with heavy armor - but then you've already given up so much damage that you'd be better off in heavy armor.
Even the high damage setup I use right now gets only 128 weapon damage more than heavy armor - 4867 (medium) vs 4739 (same gear but heavy).
So if you were to use medium armor & a defensive set, you'd just lose a ton of damage/healing compared to wearing heavy armor and gain very little (if anything). Basis is that you'd need a set that helps you mitigate atleast 5% damage just to get even with heavy armor's mitigation (let alone healing).
But hey, give it a shot if you think it's doable - I'm also curious if there's actually anything I haven't tested already.
Couldn't you use CP to bring up the missing 5% defenses?Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).
You can supplement the resistances Lost from HA to medium. But you'd have to be willing to lose a little DMG to find a way to penetrate+ have additional healing done.
Sadly you'd be in the same boat as HA for penetration sources, but you'd be adding a 12% WD increase. Therefore, theoretically, you would only need to find a Regen set with a few passive defensive sets since running 2h/dual weld give a huge weapon DMG bonus.
But I haven't made a Stam build ever. Might want to try it out just to prove that there is a way to make medium armor effective without relating on dodge 100%.
Sure, you can run a defensive set and perhaps even S&B just to get equal defenses with heavy armor - but then you've already given up so much damage that you'd be better off in heavy armor.
Even the high damage setup I use right now gets only 128 weapon damage more than heavy armor - 4867 (medium) vs 4739 (same gear but heavy).
So if you were to use medium armor & a defensive set, you'd just lose a ton of damage/healing compared to wearing heavy armor and gain very little (if anything). Basis is that you'd need a set that helps you mitigate atleast 5% damage just to get even with heavy armor's mitigation (let alone healing).
But hey, give it a shot if you think it's doable - I'm also curious if there's actually anything I haven't tested already.
Couldn't you use CP to bring up the missing 5% defenses?
Well, you should already have your CPs assigned optimally - but with something like Impregnable you can remove points from Resistant.
Problem is, those points you've just removed can't really go anywhere - you already have 49 in Hardy & Elemental Defender and 56 in Ironclad, so they don't scale much at all anymore.
You could put the 43 points from Resistant to Medium Armor focus, but that just gets you even with Heavy Armor's mitigation, only except you now have less weapon damage (and healing) than you'd have in heavy.Edited by DDuke on August 24, 2017 7:16PM0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).
You can supplement the resistances Lost from HA to medium. But you'd have to be willing to lose a little DMG to find a way to penetrate+ have additional healing done.
Sadly you'd be in the same boat as HA for penetration sources, but you'd be adding a 12% WD increase. Therefore, theoretically, you would only need to find a Regen set with a few passive defensive sets since running 2h/dual weld give a huge weapon DMG bonus.
But I haven't made a Stam build ever. Might want to try it out just to prove that there is a way to make medium armor effective without relating on dodge 100%.
Sure, you can run a defensive set and perhaps even S&B just to get equal defenses with heavy armor - but then you've already given up so much damage that you'd be better off in heavy armor.
Even the high damage setup I use right now gets only 128 weapon damage more than heavy armor - 4867 (medium) vs 4739 (same gear but heavy).
So if you were to use medium armor & a defensive set, you'd just lose a ton of damage/healing compared to wearing heavy armor and gain very little (if anything). Basis is that you'd need a set that helps you mitigate atleast 5% damage just to get even with heavy armor's mitigation (let alone healing).
But hey, give it a shot if you think it's doable - I'm also curious if there's actually anything I haven't tested already.
Couldn't you use CP to bring up the missing 5% defenses?
Well, you should already have your CPs assigned optimally - but with something like Impregnable you can remove points from Resistant.
Problem is, those points you've just removed can't really go anywhere - you already have 49 in Hardy & Elemental Defender and 56 in Ironclad, so they don't scale much at all anymore.
You could put the 43 points from Resistant to Medium Armor focus, but that just gets you even with Heavy Armor's mitigation, only except you now have less weapon damage (and healing) than you'd have in heavy.
This is what I got the stats to be.
You can get weapon DMG to be around 3200 and if a set procs you'll get around 3800 WD.
I'd say since I'm at 33k Stam and 3200 WD I'm in a minimum state for combat effective pvp. I'm at 6965 penetration but have access to major fracture through NB/S+B plus I have one mace (if against 26k resists I'll have 2600 penetration). Making my penetration around, 14845. Almost equal to spell penetration of 15280, which I use for my penetration baselines.
Regen is low, but that's because I use two DMG enchants instead of two Regen enchants. I could be at 1700 Regen. I'll probably swap one set to get a more Regen oriented set since I'm using hundings on the armor.
Edit:
CP was tougher, but equally spread out. You get 20% iron/thick plus another 7% hardy/ele def. That means with resistance values you'll be at 16.8% mitigation after a 15280 debuff. Add in the 7%, and roughly looking at 21-23% DMG mitigation with 2500 crit resists and an extra 20% from iron/thick.
And because you are in medium, I dropped CP into block cost, so you have 20% block cost reduction + 10% break free cost reduction.
Edit #2:
Those 26k resists are on your offensive bar. It's actually 31k on your defensive s+b bar. So, yea I'd say it's either equal or better than HA because you have 52% crit chance and since I used NB I can have 70% crit dmg. Much better burst through crit than HA.Edited by Minno on August 24, 2017 8:26PMMinno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).
You can supplement the resistances Lost from HA to medium. But you'd have to be willing to lose a little DMG to find a way to penetrate+ have additional healing done.
Sadly you'd be in the same boat as HA for penetration sources, but you'd be adding a 12% WD increase. Therefore, theoretically, you would only need to find a Regen set with a few passive defensive sets since running 2h/dual weld give a huge weapon DMG bonus.
But I haven't made a Stam build ever. Might want to try it out just to prove that there is a way to make medium armor effective without relating on dodge 100%.
Sure, you can run a defensive set and perhaps even S&B just to get equal defenses with heavy armor - but then you've already given up so much damage that you'd be better off in heavy armor.
Even the high damage setup I use right now gets only 128 weapon damage more than heavy armor - 4867 (medium) vs 4739 (same gear but heavy).
So if you were to use medium armor & a defensive set, you'd just lose a ton of damage/healing compared to wearing heavy armor and gain very little (if anything). Basis is that you'd need a set that helps you mitigate atleast 5% damage just to get even with heavy armor's mitigation (let alone healing).
But hey, give it a shot if you think it's doable - I'm also curious if there's actually anything I haven't tested already.
Couldn't you use CP to bring up the missing 5% defenses?
Well, you should already have your CPs assigned optimally - but with something like Impregnable you can remove points from Resistant.
Problem is, those points you've just removed can't really go anywhere - you already have 49 in Hardy & Elemental Defender and 56 in Ironclad, so they don't scale much at all anymore.
You could put the 43 points from Resistant to Medium Armor focus, but that just gets you even with Heavy Armor's mitigation, only except you now have less weapon damage (and healing) than you'd have in heavy.
This is what I got the stats to be.
You can get weapon DMG to be around 3200 and if a set procs you'll get around 3800 WD.
I'd say since I'm at 33k Stam and 3200 WD I'm in a minimum state for combat effective pvp. I'm at 6965 penetration but have access to major fracture through NB/S+B plus I have one mace (if against 26k resists I'll have 2600 penetration). Making my penetration around, 14845. Almost equal to spell penetration of 15280, which I use for my penetration baselines.
Regen is low, but that's because I use two DMG enchants instead of two Regen enchants. I could be at 1700 Regen. I'll probably swap one set to get a more Regen oriented set since I'm using hundings on the armor.
Well, give it a shot and see how that works out - but based on experience I can already tell that build would almost certainly do better as heavy armor one: better synergy with S&B and blocking, minimal weapon dmg loss, increased healing and increased mitigation without hitting the cap, as well as no real difference between sustain as your stam regen is pretty low to benefit from medium armor.
You might also want to swap to Jewels of Misrule if you plan on using cloak/fear with your build, 629 magicka regen isn't enough to CC on cooldown, you need around 1,1-1,2k for that.Edited by DDuke on August 24, 2017 8:39PM0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »What about those tanks that use Tava?
Anything that reduces health recieved or damage done is really good for duels/pvp.
and to @DDuke , most biased, buff my build nerf everything, here are some of mathematical facts (biased again. comparing sets not armors) etc etc
those sets you are talking about are situational. you dont get constant damage but it gives ridicilous amount of wp when stacked. but that doesnt mean there is something wrong with heavy armor. its just a set.
while viper was too op (lets imagine there is no viper jewelry) people didnt say medium was op or they wouldnt say it if there was no jewelry of viper. people said viper was op and it got nerfed 3 times i guess? or two anyways its uiseless now.
if you really want to co pare medium vs heavy crate a same character with your friend. same race same cp same morphs. unlock your passives. wear same armors. (hundings rage + something idk) and check your stats.
But i know you now so dont make both characters wear black rose and qq on forum like see bpth same armor check the stats heavy is better
just find a balanced set suitable for both medium and heavy. dont be biased and check damage of each character + resistances + crit and duelling capabilities. you will see heavy armor is not that good as you think.
the problem is only few weapon damage sets in heavy.
actually im pretty sure you know it but just trying to manipulate people making them believe heavy is op. anyways.
You think I haven't tested a heavy version of Hunding's already? Poor you...
Virtually the only difference is the playstyle and the fact that you no longer die to undodgeable zero counters *** like you do in medium.
So no, it's not just strong sets that heavy has, it also has defenses against most skills in the game (which medium doesn't).
Here's my build in 5/1/1 Medium & Buffs:
19% Spell Resistance 18% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4867 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 44.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 847/5 seconds (7923/5 seconds in PvP)=1585 health/second (+75% crits 47.3% of time)=2147 health/second on average
With 367 health regen, you heal for an average of 2514/second.
Now here's the same build in 5/1/1 Heavy & Buffs:
24% Spell Resistance 24% Physical Resistance 44% Crit Resistance 4739 Weapon Damage 34 411 Stamina 41.3% Crit Chance 75% Crit Damage Modifier
Vigor Tooltip: 15 603/5 seconds+8% Rapid Mending=16 831/5 seconds (8415/5 seconds in PvP)=1683 health/second (+75% crits 41.3% of time)=2204 health/second on average
With 417 health regen, you heal for an average of 2621/second.
So you give up 128 weapon damage (1.5%~ damage) for 2.6% more effective Vigor (and 50 health regen) & 5% less damage taken
How much does that stronger Vigor (and health regen) affect survivability, you might wonder? Well, here's an example:
Let's say you get hit by a 100k (50k in PvP) tooltip Soul Assault.
With medium, you take an average of 11 571 damage/second unblocked and 5785 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2514 damage/second, so you end up taking 9057 damage/second unblocked or 3271 blocked.
With heavy, you take an average of 10 857 damage/second unblocked and 5428 damage/second blocked.
Vigor+Health Regen outheals 2621 damage/second, so you end up taking 8236 damage/second unblocked or 2807 blocked.
Or let's compare to something else, like a 20K tooltip leap: medium build takes around 5586 damage hit to health pool (after mitigation+Vigor tick), while a heavy armor build takes 4979 - a 11.49% difference in survivability.
The more you add ongoing damage (i.e. DoTs & Skoria procs etc) and the more you add healing sources (Rally, Crit Surge etc) for the heavy armor build, the bigger the difference becomes.
Heavy armor gets multiple different small('ish) buffs to survivability modifiers and that is why heavy armor survives when majority of damage is undodgeable and why medium armor melts and dies. It's very simple really.
To be clear though: if you have a stamina NB in normal heavy armor (not Fury/Legion) fighting another stamina NB in medium, it's fairly balanced - because neither of them have undodgeable attacks.
But you put a stamina NB (or any other class) in medium and make him fight against a heavy armor build in Fury/Legion or someone with undodgeable attacks (i.e. almost any magicka build) and a cloak counter... that's when it becomes incredibly one-sided & soul-crushing for the medium armor user, as there is nothing you can do to survive the incoming damage and no way to burst someone in 5+ heavy armor who has more mitigation & healing than you (and can still dodge all your attacks if necessary).
You can supplement the resistances Lost from HA to medium. But you'd have to be willing to lose a little DMG to find a way to penetrate+ have additional healing done.
Sadly you'd be in the same boat as HA for penetration sources, but you'd be adding a 12% WD increase. Therefore, theoretically, you would only need to find a Regen set with a few passive defensive sets since running 2h/dual weld give a huge weapon DMG bonus.
But I haven't made a Stam build ever. Might want to try it out just to prove that there is a way to make medium armor effective without relating on dodge 100%.
Sure, you can run a defensive set and perhaps even S&B just to get equal defenses with heavy armor - but then you've already given up so much damage that you'd be better off in heavy armor.
Even the high damage setup I use right now gets only 128 weapon damage more than heavy armor - 4867 (medium) vs 4739 (same gear but heavy).
So if you were to use medium armor & a defensive set, you'd just lose a ton of damage/healing compared to wearing heavy armor and gain very little (if anything). Basis is that you'd need a set that helps you mitigate atleast 5% damage just to get even with heavy armor's mitigation (let alone healing).
But hey, give it a shot if you think it's doable - I'm also curious if there's actually anything I haven't tested already.
Couldn't you use CP to bring up the missing 5% defenses?
Well, you should already have your CPs assigned optimally - but with something like Impregnable you can remove points from Resistant.
Problem is, those points you've just removed can't really go anywhere - you already have 49 in Hardy & Elemental Defender and 56 in Ironclad, so they don't scale much at all anymore.
You could put the 43 points from Resistant to Medium Armor focus, but that just gets you even with Heavy Armor's mitigation, only except you now have less weapon damage (and healing) than you'd have in heavy.
This is what I got the stats to be.
You can get weapon DMG to be around 3200 and if a set procs you'll get around 3800 WD.
I'd say since I'm at 33k Stam and 3200 WD I'm in a minimum state for combat effective pvp. I'm at 6965 penetration but have access to major fracture through NB/S+B plus I have one mace (if against 26k resists I'll have 2600 penetration). Making my penetration around, 14845. Almost equal to spell penetration of 15280, which I use for my penetration baselines.
Regen is low, but that's because I use two DMG enchants instead of two Regen enchants. I could be at 1700 Regen. I'll probably swap one set to get a more Regen oriented set since I'm using hundings on the armor.
Well, give it a shot and see how that works out - but based on experience I can already tell that build would almost certainly do better as heavy armor one: better synergy with S&B and blocking, minimal weapon dmg loss, increased healing and increased mitigation without hitting the cap, as well as no real difference between sustain as your stam regen is pretty low.
You might also want to swap to Jewels of Misrule if you plan on using cloak/fear with your build.
No cloak, why waste the mag if I'm going to be found anyway. Though cloak gives minor protection. Mag dump is through mirage which grants minor resist buffs consistently plus dodge chance.
The build went briarheart for the crit heals plus burst potential. Adding dual weld bleed for an offensive heal but I went quick cloak for the 25% extra mitigation on AOE DMG.
HA gets a boost to Max health and healing received (aside from the easily gained resists). That's the real benefit of HA but if you use two siphoning spells plus a shadow spell, you'll match the healing received and have a little extra health. HA is redundant for nightblade.
S+b works on a LA build; it can work on a medium build. You don't need HA to make it work. I'd argue with MA, you get block+ dodge roll (if in CP) at will making s+B more BiS for medium armor users than the other 2 armors. Also slot s+b for that extra heal/reflect against sorcs.
But I'd have to test it in combat.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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- Filthy Casual0
