HotR Dungeons difficulty level

Feanor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sure everyone has limits and not everyone is a good player. But that's why normal dungeons exist. You don't have to do vet if you're not capable of doing it.

That old argument again... same old response again : sure, but ZOS will NOT design something for the top 1%. They'll design the vet difficulty at a level that will appeal to, let's say, the top 50%, therefore it will still be too easy for the top 1% . ZOS needs to sell, there's no way around it.

The same old response isn't true. A hard mode should be just that - a hard mode. Doesn't it tell you anything that LF2M DDs 6 keys run is the standard phrase in any zone chat? The hard modes are not really hard except for the SotH dungeons. Why have a hard mode when it's not meant for good players??

Strider_Roshin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Inb4 play naked btw.

Run with bad players.

I can solo vet dungeons so that doesn't really matter now does it?

And do you think your solo'ing of vet dungeons is "too easy" ?
And yes, running with bad players can be much harder than solo'ing :-) Remember, bad players aggro the wrong mobs, or the wrong way, or at the wrong time, they trigger mechanics that kill you, and they die and you have to rezz them :-)

Yes it is too easy. Fighting adds is easy because you just need to maintain your damage shield while stacking AoEs. And single target is all about remembering your rotation.

As a matter of fact the only part that is challenging is trying not to zone out while you're doing it.

Oh, and no I don't need to rez anyone

Apherius

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sure everyone has limits and not everyone is a good player. But that's why normal dungeons exist. You don't have to do vet if you're not capable of doing it.

I don't really think vet is the achievement though, vet is the mean, the MMO "honor" comes from the speed runs and no death runs and the items that are usually associated with them, titles, dyes, skins.

titles ... dyes .. skins ... ugly hat instead of the blood forged skin that they will put in the crown store ...

Transairion

I'll be blunt,ZOS is a business and wants to make money: this is a DLC, designed to make them money. Now they can:

A] Sell to 10,000 "elite" players who find every DLC Veteran Dungeon a snoozefest already, and make another set of DLC dungeons that alienates everyone else who hates how hard the DLC Dungeons are.

B] Sell to the 100,000 "scrub" players who play on Normal mode and find most Veteran Dungeons rather hard, while DLC Veteran Dungeons are colossal undertakings. The DLC dungeons are workable on Normal mode following mechanics enough, and on Vet they're still really hard for most players but "boring and dissappointing" to the elite crowd.

The thing is, option A alienates far more players and the "elite" players are never satisfied, as it's always "not hard enough" in the end. vMoL wasn't cleared, as in finished AT ALL until months after it released. vHoF was beaten hours after it hit Live server. vICP and vWGT eventually became snoozefests with enough practice, as has every single dungeon.

Option B only alienates the "elite" players, and even then barely... since they're still going to buy the DLC or ESO+ anyway, get the sets/achievements all tidied away then complain about having nothing left to do. Zenimax already got your money, and now they have a lot more money since the "scrub" players are getting through Normal mode and some through Vet. Scrubs aren't going to spend money on content they can't clear, when it's the ONLY content (which is exactly what Dungeon DLC's are).



Let's be real: Veteran Pledges used to be thriving, with dozens of players waiting for the reset timer than spamming their creditials and role LFG. This has dropped away into to practical non-existance, where reset has a handful of players who refuse to play with "PUGs" and run with their own friends/guildmates. Veteran Dungeon participation had dropped off the face of Nirn. It might as well be dead.

Now with participation almost dead, would you really want them to add more DLC Dungeons that are for the "super special elite" vHOF type players? Especially with the terrible reaction SotH got? Putting effort into content that 1% of the playerbase will finish, and thus less will buy?


Now I'm not saying buff or nerf anything, I'm fine where content is (except DLC dungeons being available to level 10's, they're just not designed with novice gameplay in mind): but the "this is too easy buff it!!" crowd really needs to stop thinking they're this huge slice of the playerbase. Resources that could go to Super Duper Especially Hard Mode are much better spent elsewhere on features you know... everyone can enjoy.

mb10

If by difficulty you mean monsters have more health and hit harder then thats not difficulty at all

Its just doing your rotation over and over

Id rather a boss be very difficult to kill because of the tactic you need to use. Like something in the room you have to use which isnt obvious, or to use a specific spell/poison etc

Basically something that takes a bit of tactical thinking not just high dps

Mureel

What I would like to know is: On the Bloodroot Forge, the boss with the Shalks that target you with Lava, what it the mechanic? I've been doing it JUST KILL EM ASAP! but as healer, I am getting targeted by them a lot and wondered if anyone had an alternate mechanic?

Thanks in advance!

Mureel

VoodooWasser wrote: »

I think everybody will agree when i say the two new dungeons look absolutly awesome! I dont think everybody will agree when i say they are way to easy.

In my personal opinion HotR is by far not comparable to IC and SotH dungeons when they launched. I do like the Mechanics but most bosses have to low health and some dont hit hard enaugh.
The problem is that according to ZoS shown yearly plans for the DlC´s this two dungeons have to last a whole year like IC and SotH before them had to. I know SotH was not popular due to difficulty level, but it was the thing this game needet for people who are not far enaugh to do endgame raiding but to far to be content with wayrest sewers and co. AND this content just got nerfed (havend checked it out yet).

I know many ppl will be offended and say its elitist but i would love if HotR gets Buffed. I would also love it if all Dungeons get a thrid, harder than veteran, modus.

Did you do them Vet and Hard Mode? If so, please see my post on the Shalks and reply. TY!

Mureel

VoodooWasser wrote: »

Yes we did Hardmode.

The Point is not that i want to whine its to easy for me im a badass King and everyone who cant handle it first time is stupid.

The Point is that these two dungeons will supposly be the only new 4 person content for a whole Year!

If there were one or Two new dungeons every DLC i wouldnt bother. But as it seems now ZoS will just release two per Year so i think this two should be at least a challange for everyone. Just give us a thrid Difficulty so everyone can be happy.

Shalks pleeasee! xD TY!

Feanor

Again: why not buff the hard modes with additional mechanics? That way everyone would be happy. I find it rather ridiculous you get a gold key for a normal dungeon run on another note.

VoodooWasser

Mureel wrote: »

What I would like to know is: On the Bloodroot Forge, the boss with the Shalks that target you with Lava, what it the mechanic? I've been doing it JUST KILL EM ASAP! but as healer, I am getting targeted by them a lot and wondered if anyone had an alternate mechanic?

Thanks in advance!

If the Lava follows you you have to jump on a Rock wich is in the liquid nirn. The Lava will dissapear touching the nirn.

Cage_Lizardman

It must be an extremely small number of people who find these dungeons too easy. I doubt developing content for such small groups makes any sense.

rhapsodious

Transairion wrote: »

The thing is, option A alienates far more players and the "elite" players are never satisfied, as it's always "not hard enough" in the end. vMoL wasn't cleared, as in finished AT ALL until months after it released. vHoF was beaten hours after it hit Live server. vICP and vWGT eventually became snoozefests with enough practice, as has every single dungeon.[/b]

While I don't really have issues with the rest of your points, I'd like to point out that Maw was buggy as hell on release which is part of the reason why it took so long to complete. I definitely think vHoF is "easier" as a whole, but part of the hurdle with Maw was you were fighting the bugs in addition to the bosses.

Mureel wrote: »

What I would like to know is: On the Bloodroot Forge, the boss with the Shalks that target you with Lava, what it the mechanic? I've been doing it JUST KILL EM ASAP! but as healer, I am getting targeted by them a lot and wondered if anyone had an alternate mechanic?

Thanks in advance!

Jump across the lava to one of the platforms, the fireball will hit the lava and dissipate. I think a tooltip explains this...

Transairion

Again: why not buff the hard modes with additional mechanics? That way everyone would be happy. I find it rather ridiculous you get a gold key for a normal dungeon run on another note.

That's one way to do it, sure. The biggest problem right now with Veteran Dungeons is the fact Normal and Veteran share the same key reward (after keys were normalized down from 3 types to 1 generic key), while being very different in difficulty. As a result it's a lot easier to just do Normal for 1 key, so Vet without HM is almost entirely pointless and a last resort if unable to clear HM. Why Vet isn't 2 keys and Vet HM 3-4 keys is beyond me.

Not sure why you're mad Normal is allowed to get keys, or does this circle back to the special snowflake side of things where players who do Normal aren't allowed any keys... despite Vet HM's giving double keys, Monster Helms, etc.

Just look at HotR's achievements, there's maybe 5 out of 30-40 that don't require Veteran version.

Feanor

Transairion wrote: »

Again: why not buff the hard modes with additional mechanics? That way everyone would be happy. I find it rather ridiculous you get a gold key for a normal dungeon run on another note.

That's one way to do it, sure. The biggest problem right now with Veteran Dungeons is the fact Normal and Veteran share the same key reward (after keys were normalized down from 3 types to 1 generic key), while being very different in difficulty. As a result it's a lot easier to just do Normal for 1 key, so Vet without HM is almost entirely pointless and a last resort if unable to clear HM. Why Vet isn't 2 keys and Vet HM 3-4 keys is beyond me.

Not sure why you're mad Normal is allowed to get keys, or does this circle back to the special snowflake side of things where players who do Normal aren't allowed any keys... despite Vet HM's giving double keys, Monster Helms, etc.

Just look at HotR's achievements, there's maybe 5 out of 30-40 that don't require Veteran version.

You explained yourself. That normal and vet get the same one key drives everyone into doing HM which leads to those getting nerfed or designed easier from the get go. Why there isn't a spread is beyond me.

rotaugen454

I've been in since beta and have several thousand hours played. I sometimes run with guildies, sometimes I pug. Most people will never join a guild and run voice comms. VOIP is an immense advantage. I agree that they should consider adding a difficulty level, but I think the only reward should be an achievement for that person's ego. No better gear or anything like that. Those of us with tons of time in the game already have a large advantage over more casual players. Let's not add to that and make the gap even wider.

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

play without champion points

While I haven't yet done the new dungeons so can't comment on their difficulty much myself(and frankly I'm not really looking forward to them with how many people say they don't stand up to the SotH/IC launch standard)...what an absurd argument. There're 2 modes, normal for story and completion and vet for those of us that like the challenge. What kind of logic is it to imply that in order to get the challenge you gotta gimp yourself? Did you people also complain when Skyrim got Legendary difficulty added?

Skyrim had a difficulty slider so it's not comparable at all.

The top 1% players should definitely stop thinking that vet dungeons are made for them. It's not like "normal" is made for 99% of players and vet for 1%. "Normal" is designed for the "bottom" 50% and "vet" is designed for the top 50%. Logically the top 1% is going to find them too easy. It sucks to be a minority but there are a couple of games out there designed to provide a real challenge. As a mainstream MMO, ESO simply isn't one of them.

How is it not comparable though? You had an option to do stuff on easier or harder difficulty. You have an option to do do stuff on easier(normal) or harder(veteran) difficulty. Sure it's a bit different with just 2 tiers and whole MMO stuff but it's very similar in the idea. Why was it fine in Skyrim for some people to choose legendary difficulty and enjoy it but it's not fine and must be nerfed in eso?

Wifeaggro13

VoodooWasser wrote: »

I think everybody will agree when i say the two new dungeons look absolutly awesome! I dont think everybody will agree when i say they are way to easy.

In my personal opinion HotR is by far not comparable to IC and SotH dungeons when they launched. I do like the Mechanics but most bosses have to low health and some dont hit hard enaugh.
The problem is that according to ZoS shown yearly plans for the DlC´s this two dungeons have to last a whole year like IC and SotH before them had to. I know SotH was not popular due to difficulty level, but it was the thing this game needet for people who are not far enaugh to do endgame raiding but to far to be content with wayrest sewers and co. AND this content just got nerfed (havend checked it out yet).

I know many ppl will be offended and say its elitist but i would love if HotR gets Buffed. I would also love it if all Dungeons get a thrid, harder than veteran, modus.

good luck Zos picked their market and now both communities are leaving the game

MLGProPlayer

Just give us a third difficulty setting already.

It costs minimal development time (just buff enemy/boss health X% and test a few times).

Megabear

Off topic; anyone else pronounce HotR as "Hodor"?

MLGProPlayer

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Sure everyone has limits and not everyone is a good player. But that's why normal dungeons exist. You don't have to do vet if you're not capable of doing it.

That old argument again... same old response again : sure, but ZOS will NOT design something for the top 1%. They'll design the vet difficulty at a level that will appeal to, let's say, the top 50%, therefore it will still be too easy for the top 1% . ZOS needs to sell, there's no way around it.

If 50% of people can complete it, then it isn't a "challenge". There needs to be a mode that people can find challenging.

It that requires a third difficulty setting, then so be it. You are not entitled to be able to complete content on every difficulty.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

How is it not comparable though? You had an option to do stuff on easier or harder difficulty. You have an option to do do stuff on easier(normal) or harder(veteran) difficulty. Sure it's a bit different with just 2 tiers and whole MMO stuff but it's very similar in the idea. Why was it fine in Skyrim for some people to choose legendary difficulty and enjoy it but it's not fine and must be nerfed in eso?

There is no such thing as a "legendary difficulty" in Skyrim. The "legendary" system that was implemented was just a way to artificially make progression infinite. It did not in any way alter the difficulty of the game, because mobs were always scaled to your level anyway.

But that's not even the point. The point is that anyone not happy with the standard difficulty of Skyrim had tons of means to tweak it to their liking, via settings, mods, cheats, command lines, and whatnot. Because ESO is an MMO, which means that we have to play in the same environment, we cannot individually tweak it to our liking, ZOS has to do it for us, in a way that they think will please most of us (or, from their point of view, make more people play more time and spend more money on the game). That's the major difference. And that's why 1% of the population can't get their "nice things".

In Skyrim, when I simply wanted to feel immersed, admire the landscapes and explore areas in details, I'd hit the command line and enter "killall" every five minutes. No more mobs.
Isn't it obvious why I cannot have the same feature in ESO ? Well, it's the same reason why we can't have a difficulty level tailored to each particular segment of players;

MLGProPlayer

rhapsodious wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

The thing is, option A alienates far more players and the "elite" players are never satisfied, as it's always "not hard enough" in the end. vMoL wasn't cleared, as in finished AT ALL until months after it released. vHoF was beaten hours after it hit Live server. vICP and vWGT eventually became snoozefests with enough practice, as has every single dungeon.[/b]

While I don't really have issues with the rest of your points, I'd like to point out that Maw was buggy as hell on release which is part of the reason why it took so long to complete. I definitely think vHoF is "easier" as a whole, but part of the hurdle with Maw was you were fighting the bugs in addition to the bosses.

Mureel wrote: »

What I would like to know is: On the Bloodroot Forge, the boss with the Shalks that target you with Lava, what it the mechanic? I've been doing it JUST KILL EM ASAP! but as healer, I am getting targeted by them a lot and wondered if anyone had an alternate mechanic?

Thanks in advance!

Jump across the lava to one of the platforms, the fireball will hit the lava and dissipate. I think a tooltip explains this...

There has also been a ton of power creep since Maw as the CP cap has continued to rise.

s7732425ub17_ESO

The new dungeons are definitely harder than both ICP and WGT. I've completed both on Vet. I would say they are comparable to ROM and COS, but they have less annoying mechanics.

Mureel

VoodooWasser wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

What I would like to know is: On the Bloodroot Forge, the boss with the Shalks that target you with Lava, what it the mechanic? I've been doing it JUST KILL EM ASAP! but as healer, I am getting targeted by them a lot and wondered if anyone had an alternate mechanic?

Thanks in advance!

If the Lava follows you you have to jump on a Rock wich is in the liquid nirn. The Lava will dissapear touching the nirn.

Oh my god. LOL too simple to be true! Thank you! I feel like a goober.

I'm editing to add: seriously. Never missed a hammer throw or died to anything else. Ridiculous. Lol

Mureel

rhapsodious wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

The thing is, option A alienates far more players and the "elite" players are never satisfied, as it's always "not hard enough" in the end. vMoL wasn't cleared, as in finished AT ALL until months after it released. vHoF was beaten hours after it hit Live server. vICP and vWGT eventually became snoozefests with enough practice, as has every single dungeon.[/b]

While I don't really have issues with the rest of your points, I'd like to point out that Maw was buggy as hell on release which is part of the reason why it took so long to complete. I definitely think vHoF is "easier" as a whole, but part of the hurdle with Maw was you were fighting the bugs in addition to the bosses.

Mureel wrote: »

What I would like to know is: On the Bloodroot Forge, the boss with the Shalks that target you with Lava, what it the mechanic? I've been doing it JUST KILL EM ASAP! but as healer, I am getting targeted by them a lot and wondered if anyone had an alternate mechanic?

Thanks in advance!

Jump across the lava to one of the platforms, the fireball will hit the lava and dissipate. I think a tooltip explains this...

I got called in to help on that boss, and didn't see any tooltips but thank you! That makes sense and so simple I feel like a dummy.

MLGProPlayer

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

How is it not comparable though? You had an option to do stuff on easier or harder difficulty. You have an option to do do stuff on easier(normal) or harder(veteran) difficulty. Sure it's a bit different with just 2 tiers and whole MMO stuff but it's very similar in the idea. Why was it fine in Skyrim for some people to choose legendary difficulty and enjoy it but it's not fine and must be nerfed in eso?

There is no such thing as a "legendary difficulty" in Skyrim. The "legendary" system that was implemented was just a way to artificially make progression infinite. It did not in any way alter the difficulty of the game, because mobs were always scaled to your level anyway.

But that's not even the point. The point is that anyone not happy with the standard difficulty of Skyrim had tons of means to tweak it to their liking, via settings, mods, cheats, command lines, and whatnot. Because ESO is an MMO, which means that we have to play in the same environment, we cannot individually tweak it to our liking, ZOS has to do it for us, in a way that they think will please most of us (or, from their point of view, make more people play more time and spend more money on the game). That's the major difference. And that's why 1% of the population can't get their "nice things".

In Skyrim, when I simply wanted to feel immersed, admire the landscapes and explore areas in details, I'd hit the command line and enter "killall" every five minutes. No more mobs.
Isn't it obvious why I cannot have the same feature in ESO ? Well, it's the same reason why we can't have a difficulty level tailored to each particular segment of players;

You didn't explain the difference, at all.

Why are you entitled to be able to complete content on the hardest difficulty in ESO but not in a single player game?

I'm sure that the percentage of players who play single player games on the highest difficulty is also <5%.

Mureel

As a vamp the other issue I had was in VFH, last boss, when he pulls you and spawns the rocks like on a standard, I was getting stuck in them and just immolated some times, the other times it was perfectly fine. That's mildly annoying. It's like getting stuck in landscape sort of thing. You know how you just RD in place and cannot get anywhere...

Tonnopesce

Qbiken wrote: »

VoodooWasser wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´ll be the first to ask: Why does all new content need to be vMoL HM??? You even said that people were disapointed with the difficulty level of SotH dungeons, so ZOS decided to make the new ones a Little easier. I haven´t played Falkreath Hold yet, but Bloodroot forge on HM isn´t "easy".

I can totally understand your point, and my personal playstyle dont have to be yours.

The thing is besides vMol and vHof there isnt much channanging stuff for some players. This Playerbase gets ignored while there is lots of stuff for player who dont need to hard contend.

Like i said: in my opinion it would be best for the game when there would be a third difficulty Level.

A third difficulty level would indeed solve that issue yea. A lot of dungeons in the game could use a 3rd storyline since it feels like they have some sort of "unfinished ending".

* Selenes Web: The wizard claiming Selenes soul for Power, could make a story around that
* Volenfell: Since the woman continues to search for the artifact, what happened then???
* White Gold Tower: The moth priest found Another rift leading to Coldharbour where she Believes the real empress is located at. First you need to climb the Tower again to reach the rift and then fight your way through Coldhourbor to save the real empress
* Vault of Madness: The spirits that "take over" the vault after the fall of The Mad architect, could see a story around that

Is not about this...
If you add a storyline to a third gear of difficulty everyone will try to do it, and ask for nerfs in a matter of seconds.
SAME STORY, SAME REWARDS (as veteran mode) BUT HARDER TO DO.

anitajoneb17_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

You didn't explain the difference, at all.

Why are you entitled to be able to complete content on the hardest difficulty in ESO but not in a single player game?

I'm sure that the percentage of players who play single player games on the highest difficulty is also <5%.

I have, actually.
Because people tweaking the difficulty to "nightmare" in a single player game DO IT THEMSELVES. They don't ask the devs to do it for them. The devs will NOT spend resources on something that will please less than 5% of players and frustrate the remaining 95%.

Look at ARK : there is a multitude of servers set up and managed by players, with all kinds of tweaks and mods to make it more or less difficult than the original developer intended.

Rest assured that if ZOS woud let people install ESO on private servers and tweak all the mechanics, I'd be more than happy for you and you could join a "nightmare level" server. But ESO plays on megaservers owned and controlled by ZOS only. So your nightmare mode has to be built by ZOS. And they won't. Because there's simply too few of you.

As to the "entitlement" you're accusing me of, let me remind you that I don't currently have a satisfying level of difficulty in ESO dungeons either. For my level, normal is too easy and vet is too hard. Am I whining and demanding like you ? No. Who is entitled ? Me or you ? If everything is too easy for you, maybe it just means that you've beaten the game. The game doesn't have to adapt to you...

MLGProPlayer

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

You didn't explain the difference, at all.

Why are you entitled to be able to complete content on the hardest difficulty in ESO but not in a single player game?

I'm sure that the percentage of players who play single player games on the highest difficulty is also <5%.

I have, actually.
Because people tweaking the difficulty to "nightmare" in a single player game DO IT THEMSELVES. They don't ask the devs to do it for them. The devs will NOT spend resources on something that will please less than 5% of players and frustrate the remaining 95%.

Why would it frustrate 95% of players? If you can't complete content on the highest difficulty, then don't play it on that difficulty. Simple. It's the same with single player games. If you can't beat the game on nightmare difficulty, then don't play it on that difficulty.

Who creates the difficulty settings in a single player game if not the devs?? They create harder difficulties for players who want to play it on that difficulty.

The situations are EXACTLY the same.