Magicka DPS Set Bonus Comparison - MATH (pre-HotR)

dpencil1

The following calculations are for the purpose of comparing the Effective Spell Power of several Magicka armor sets in the Horns of the Reach update. This is not an exhaustive list, nor are the parameters cosidered the only ones relevant to how well a particular build performs.

Our primary concern is to quantify the cumulative benefit of the following bonuses on their respective sets: Max Magicka, Spell Damage, Crit Chance, Spell Penetration, and Additional Crit Damage. I will be using the UESP Effective Spell Power formula for these calculations, with all other variables removed. Crit % is determined by dividing the amount of crit by 219 (i.e. 1066 / 219 = 4.86 ~ 4.9).

The graphs below show how much more powerful each set is over a baseline with no set bonuses. Original calculations are at the bottom. The first graph is generated from adding all the values of the graphs Comparison A-G together, a sort of TLDR version.

UPDATE: Since the initial posting of this thread, Comparison G was added and included in the Cumulative Comparison, which switched the order of the bottom two sets, kicking Necropotence into last place.



Individual Set Assessment:

1st Place - SPINNER'S
- Even with the 5th piece bonus being nerfed, this set is very strong assuming you are not already hitting the penetration cap. The nerf to Sharpened will make Spinner's an even more desirable set for making up the difference, and is one of the most efficient magicka damage sets for boosting Effective Spell Damage. This could potentially free up CP for use on other stars.
- Be mindful, however, that while the 2-4 piece bonuses will be universally beneficial, the 5th piece bonus will not have any effect on shields.

2nd Place - NETCH'S TOUCH
- The assumption here is that we are fully specced into lightning damage. If your parses show less than 75% total damage coming from lightning, you would be better off with Julianos. With 100% lightning damage, this set is very strong.

UPDATE:
Scathing Mage with an 80% uptime looks to be around here, almost as strong as fully specced Netch's Touch assuming you have the crit chance high enough to get 80% uptime. 60% would be equivalent to Julianos (naked).

3rd Place - JULIANOS (completing 5-1-1)
- One of the main benefits of Julianos is that, as a crafted set, it can come in Light, Medium, or Heavy. This allows us to craft pieces to complete a 5-1-1 setup, gaining an extra 2% more magicka over a 6-1 setup with 2 5-piece light armor sets.

UPDATE:
Silks of the Sun looks to be about here, assuming 100% fire damage.

4th Place - BURNING SPELL WEAVE
- The assumption here is that we have a 60% proc uptime. Below 57% would put the 5th piece bonus at the same level as Julianos' 5th piece. One thing that is not taken into account here is the additional Burning procs, which would boost Wall of Flame damage by 20%. BSW has the potential to be tied with Julianos for 3rd place, given the right conditions (66% uptime).

5th Place - JULIANOS (naked)
- Taking Julianos at face value, as if it were part of a 6-1 setup, without the extra 2% from the Undaunted passive, it still does well. It is worth noting that Julianos will be less optimized if running it as the only 5-piece set with 2 monster pieces as opposed to part or a double 5-piece set arrangement.

6th Place - MOTHER'S SORROW
- Although buffed significantly in HotR to 21% Crit, this set still falls short when examined in isolation. It does best in situations where you can boost Crit Damage high and generally get your other stats high as well. It essentially amplifies the base damage you do, becoming more powerful the stronger your other stats are. As we will see in the buffed set combinations graph, it moves to a BiS position given high enough stats in other areas.

7th Place - NECROPOTENCE
- Significantly hurt by the nerf to its 5th piece bonus, Necro is at the bottom of the pack. It still offers the most magicka compared to other sets, which will directly boost shields, pets, and provide more resources for casting, but it also requires an active pet and scales poorly with weapon attacks. It's difficult to quantify exactly how these factors should effect this set's position in Effective Spell Power ranking, being largely subjective how much each factor would be "worth" in a comparison like this.

I also compared what Necropotence would look like without any nerf. It would have come in 4th, edging out Burning Spell Weave. Personally, I think that would be the appropriate spot for it, and I would encourage the dev team to either fully revert the nerf or at least lessen it, perhaps to 3450, which is what Spinner's was nerfed to from 4000. @ZOS_GinaBruno

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In the graph below, 5000 points are removed from each calculated result to better highlight the differences between each.


Comparing Set Combinations with LOW stats:

Ranked from best to worst combinations:
Spinner/Netch
Spinner/Julianos
Spinner/BSW
Julianos/Netch
Spinner/Necro
Spinner/Mother
Netch/Necro
Julianos/BSW
Netch/Mother
Julianos/Necro
BSW/Necro
Julianos/Mother
BSW/Mother
Necro/Mother

These rankings line up closely with the individual rankings, which makes sense since in most calculation 4/5 of the variables were LOW stats, with only one being buffed to measure it's effect. Again, we see Necropotence and Mother's Sorrow near the bottom of the pack.

Now let's looks at these same set combinations when we buff all five of the calculated stats:

In the graph below, 10000 points are removed from each calculated result to better highlight the differences between each.


Comparing Set Combinations with HIGH stats:

Ranked from best to worst combinations:
Spinner/Mother
Spinner/Julianos
Spinner/Netch
BSW/Mother
Julianos/Mother
Netch/Mother
Julianos/Netch
Spinner/BSW
Julianos/BSW
Spinner/Necro
Necro/Mother
Julianos/Necro
Netch/Necro
BSW/Necro

Here, we see Spinner's remain the top choice, while Mother's Sorrow comes catapulting to the front of the pack. Because these calculations were made with fully buffed stat figures, there is so much more raw power for Mother's Sorrow to amplify. We can also see that, Necropotence fairs the worst by a wide margin.

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The remaining graphs are simply a visual representation of the comparisons of each set's bonuses to a baseline. They don't really show much more new data, although it is interesting to see how some sets benefit more or less from certain stats being buffed.

UPDATE: A new chart, Comparison G has been added showing single set comparisons that are FULLY buffed.















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And here we have the actual calculations that were used. Again, these values were plugged in to the UESP Build Editor "Effective Spell Power" Calculator, with the result given at the bottom of each.

1. Baseline A (all low values)
30k Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
4662

2. Baseline B (buffed Magicka +10k)
40k Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5578

3. Baseline C (buffed SD +100)
30k Magicka, 3k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5622

4. Baseline D (buffed Crit +20%)
30k Magicka, 2k SD, 60% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5051

5. Baseline E (buffed Pen +10%)
30k Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 90% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5245

6. Baseline F (buffed Crit Dmg +20%)
30k Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
4974

6. Baseline G (FULLY buffed)
40k Magicka, 3k SD, 60% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
8703

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A Necropotence (1096 x 3) + 3150 = 6438 Magicka
36438 Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5251 (589 over base)

B Necropotence (1096 x 3) + 3150 = 6438 Magicka
46438 Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6166 (588 over base)

C Necropotence (1096 x 3) + 3150 = 6438 Magicka
36438 Magicka, 3k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6211 (589 over base)

D Necropotence (1096 x 3) + 3150 = 6438 Magicka
36438 Magicka, 2k SD, 60% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5689 (638 over base)

E Necropotence (1096 x 3) + 3150 = 6438 Magicka
36438 Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 90% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5908 (663 over base)

F Necropotence (1096 x 3) + 3150 = 6438 Magicka
36438 Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
5602 (628 over base)

G Necropotence (1096 x 3) + 3150 = 6438 Magicka
46438 Magicka, 3k SD, 60% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
9487 (784 over base)

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The following are calculations for Necropotence if it did not receive a nerf, but preserved its 4000 Magicka 5-piece bonus.

A Necropotence (no nerf) 7288 Magicka
37288 Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5329 (667 over base)

B Necropotence (no nerf) 7288 Magicka
47288 Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6244 (666 over base)

C Necropotence (no nerf) 7288 Magicka
37288 Magicka, 3k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6289 (667 over base)

D Necropotence (no nerf) 7288 Magicka
37288 Magicka, 2k SD, 60% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5773 (722 over base)

E Necropotence (no nerf) 7288 Magicka
37288 Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 90% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5995 (750 over base)

F Necropotence (no nerf) 7288 Magicka
37288 Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
5684 (710 over base)

G Necropotence (no nerf) 7288 Magicka
47288 Magicka, 3k SD, 60% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
9590 (887 over base)
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A Julianos 1096 Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5254 (592 over base)

B Julianos 1096 Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
41096 Magicka, 2299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6206 (628 over base)

C Julianos 1096 Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
31096 Magicka, 3299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6254 (632 over base)

D Julianos 1096 Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2299 SD, 69.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5675 (624 over base)

E Julianos 1096 Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 90% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5911 (666 over base)

F Julianos 1096 Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
5254 (592 over base)

G Julianos 1096 Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
41096 Magicka, 3299 SD, 69.7% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
9659 (956 over base)

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The following calculations add 2% Magicka to Julianos, since this is an added benefit of a Crafted set combined with a 5-light set and 1-piece monster piece to get 5-1-1.

A Julianos 1096 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
31717 Magicka, 2299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5314 (652 over base)

B Julianos 1096 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
41917 Magicka, 2299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6283 (705 over base)

C Julianos 1096 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
31717 Magicka, 3299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6313 (691 over base)

D Julianos 1096 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
31717 Magicka, 2299 SD, 69.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5739 (688 over base)

E Julianos 1096 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
31717 Magicka, 2299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 90% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5978 (733 over base)

F Julianos 1096 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
31717 Magicka, 2299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
5737 (763 over base)

G Julianos 1096 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
41917 Magicka, 3299 SD, 69.7% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
9763 (1060 over base)

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A Mother's Sorrow 1096 Magicka, 21% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2000 SD, 61% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5180 (518 over base)

B Mother's Sorrow 1096 Magicka, 21% Crit
41096 Magicka, 2000 SD, 61% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6174 (596 over base)

C Mother's Sorrow 1096 Magicka, 21% Crit
31096 Magicka, 3000 SD, 61% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6224 (602 over base)

D Mother's Sorrow 1096 Magicka, 21% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2000 SD, 81% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5578 (527 over base)

A Mother's Sorrow 1096 Magicka, 21% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2000 SD, 61% Crit, 90% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5828 (583 over base)

F Mother's Sorrow 1096 Magicka, 21% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2000 SD, 61% Crit, 80% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
5665 (691 over base)

G Mother's Sorrow 1096 Magicka, 21% Crit
41096 Magicka, 3000 SD, 81% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
9751 (1048 over base)

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A Spinner's 2192 Magicka, 129 SD, 6.9% Pen
32192 Magicka, 2129 SD, 40% Crit, 86.9% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5417 (755 over base)

B Spinner's 2192 Magicka, 129 SD, 6.9% Pen
42192 Magicka, 2129 SD, 40% Crit, 86.9% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6410 (832 over base)

C Spinner's 2192 Magicka, 129 SD, 6.9% Pen
32192 Magicka, 3129 SD, 40% Crit, 86.9% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6460 (838 over base)

D Spinner's 2192 Magicka, 129 SD, 6.9% Pen
32192 Magicka, 2129 SD, 60% Crit, 86.9% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5869 (818 over base)

E Spinner's 2192 Magicka, 129 SD, 6.9% Pen
32192 Magicka, 2129 SD, 40% Crit, 96.9% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6041 (796 over base)

F Spinner's 2192 Magicka, 129 SD, 6.9% Pen
32192 Magicka, 2129 SD, 40% Crit, 86.9% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
5779 (805 over base)

G Spinner's 2192 Magicka, 129 SD, 6.9% Pen
42192 Magicka, 3129 SD, 60% Crit, 96.9% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
9834 (1131 over base)

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The following calculations assume 60% uptime. 66% uptime would give 31 more SD (2475). 57% uptime would remove 16 SD (2428). Uptimes lower than 57% are worse than the flat 299 SD from Julianos.

A Burning Spell Weave 1096 Magicka, (525 x 0.6) + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2444 SD, 44.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5294 (587 over base)

B Burning Spell Weave 1096 Magicka, (525 x 0.6) + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
41096 Magicka, 2444 SD, 44.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6226 (648 over base)

C Burning Spell Weave 1096 Magicka, (525 x 0.6) + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
31096 Magicka, 3444 SD, 44.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6273 (651 over base)

D Burning Spell Weave 1096 Magicka, (525 x 0.6) + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2444 SD, 64.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5726 (675 over base)

E Burning Spell Weave 1096 Magicka, (525 x 0.6) + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2444 SD, 44.8% Crit, 90% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5955 (710 over base)

F Burning Spell Weave 1096 Magicka, (525 x 0.6) + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2444 SD, 44.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
5681 (707 over base)

G Burning Spell Weave 1096 Magicka, (525 x 0.6) + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
41096 Magicka, 3444 SD, 64.8% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
9626 (923 over base)

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The following calculations assume 100% of skills used are Lightning-based damage. 90% would subtract 40 SD (2489). Every -5% = -20 SD. 75% would subtract 100 SD (2429), making it's 5th bonus essentially equal to Julianos.

A Netch's Touch 1096 Magicka, 400 + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2529 SD, 44.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5377 (715 over base)

B Netch's Touch 1096 Magicka, 400 + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
41096 Magicka, 2529 SD, 44.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6309 (731 over base)

C Netch's Touch 1096 Magicka, 400 + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
31096 Magicka, 3529 SD, 44.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6356 (734 over base)

D Netch's Touch 1096 Magicka, 400 + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2529 SD, 64.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5816 (765 over base)

E Netch's Touch 1096 Magicka, 400 + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2529 SD, 44.8% Crit, 90% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6049 (804 over base)

F Netch's Touch 1096 Magicka, 400 + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
31096 Magicka, 2529 SD, 44.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
5770 (796 over base)

G Netch's Touch 1096 Magicka, 400 + 129 SD, 4.8% Crit
41096 Magicka, 3529 SD, 64.8% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
9737 (1034 over base)

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SET COMBINATIONS (Low Stats):

Spinner/Netch 3288 Magicka, 658 SD, 4.8% Crit, 6.9% Pen
33288 Magicka, 2658 SD, 44.8% Crit, 86.9% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6199

Spinner/Julianos 3288 + 2% Magicka, 428 SD, 9.7% Crit, 6.9% Pen
33953 Magicka, 2428 SD, 49.7% Crit, 86.9% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6143

Spinner/BSW 3288 Magicka, 573 SD, 4.8% Crit, 6.9% Pen
33288 Magicka, 2573 SD, 44.8% Crit, 86.9% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6108

Spinner/Necro 8630 Magicka, 129 SD, 6.9% Pen
38630 Magicka, 2129 SD, 40% Crit, 86.9% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6057

Spinner/Mother 3288 Magicka, 129 SD, 21% Crit, 6.9% Pen
33288 Magicka, 2129 SD, 61% Crit, 86.9% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6009

Julianos/Netch 2192 + 2% Magicka, 828 SD, 14.4% Crit
32835 Magicka, 2828 SD, 54.4% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
6060

Julianos/BSW 2192 + 2% Magicka, 743 SD, 14.4% Crit
32835 Magicka, 2743 SD, 54.4% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5974

Julianos/Necro 7534 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
38284 Magicka, 2299 SD, 49.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5938

Julianos/Mother 2192 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 30.7% Crit
32835 Magicka, 2299 SD, 70.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5875

Netch/Necro 7534 Magicka, 529 SD, 4.8% Crit
37534 Magicka, 2529 SD, 44.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5977

Netch/Mother 2192 Magicka, 529 SD, 25.8% Crit
32192 Magicka, 2529 SD, 65.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5949

BSW/Necro 7534 Magicka, 444 SD, 4.8% Crit
37534 Magicka, 2444 SD, 44.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5894

BSW/Mother 2192 Magicka, 444 SD, 25.8% Crit
32192 Magicka, 2444 SD, 65.8% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5858

Necro/Mother 7534 Magicka, 21% Crit
37534 Magicka, 2000 SD, 61% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5820

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SET COMBINATIONS (Fully Buffed):

Fully Buffed: Spinner/Netch 3288 Magicka, 658 SD, 4.8% Crit, 6.9% Pen
43288 Magicka, 3658 SD, 64.8% Crit, 96.9% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10959

Fully Buffed: Spinner/Julianos 3288 + 2% Magicka, 428 SD, 9.7% Crit, 6.9% Pen
44153 Magicka, 3428 SD, 69.7% Crit, 96.9% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
11005

Fully Buffed: Spinner/BSW 3288 Magicka, 573 SD, 4.8% Crit, 6.9% Pen
43288 Magicka, 3573 SD, 64.8% Crit, 96.9% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10840

Fully Buffed: Spinner/Necro 8630 Magicka, 129 SD, 6.9% Pen
48630 Magicka, 3129 SD, 60% Crit, 96.9% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10677

Fully Buffed: Spinner/Mother 3288 Magicka, 129 SD, 21% Crit, 6.9% Pen
43288 Magicka, 3129 SD, 81% Crit, 96.9% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
11012

Fully Buffed: Julianos/Netch 2192 + 2% Magicka, 828 SD, 14.4% Crit
43035 Magicka, 3828 SD, 74.4% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10850

Fully Buffed: Julianos/BSW 2192 + 2% Magicka, 743 SD, 14.4% Crit
43035 Magicka, 3743 SD, 74.4% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10733

Fully Buffed: Julianos/Necro 7534 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 9.7% Crit
48484 Magicka, 3299 SD, 69.7% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10602

Fully Buffed: Julianos/Mother 2192 + 2% Magicka, 299 SD, 30.7% Crit
43035 Magicka, 3299 SD, 90.7% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10886

Fully Buffed: Netch/Necro 7534 Magicka, 529 SD, 4.8% Crit
47534 Magicka, 3529 SD, 64.8% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10539

Fully Buffed: Netch/Mother 2192 Magicka, 529 SD, 25.8% Crit
42192 Magicka, 3529 SD, 85.8% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10872

Fully Buffed: BSW/Necro 7534 Magicka, 444 SD, 4.8% Crit
47534 Magicka, 3444 SD, 64.8% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10428

Fully Buffed: BSW/Mother 2192 Magicka, 444 SD, 25.8% Crit
42192 Magicka, 3444 SD, 85.8% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10887

Fully Buffed: Necro/Mother 7534 Magicka, 21% Crit
47534 Magicka, 3000 SD, 81% Crit, 90% Pen, 70% Crit Dmg
10616

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Thanks for reading!
Also, please see my follow-up thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365915/necropotence-examination-more-math-pre-hotr#latest

SanTii.92

Hey cool, haven't fully checked it all but got 2 questions. Why isn't scathing compared too, and have you consider that in the case of mag sorcs, the scamp's pulse is only buffed by max magicka, and thus reducing the effectivness of netch's, julianos, bsw.

dpencil1

@SanTii.92
Regarding Scathing, the 5th piece has a very wide variability. 100% uptime would get you 516 more SD, while 50% would get 258. Its 2-4 piece is identical to Julianos, so unless you're getting more than 60% uptime on the 5th piece bonus it is worse than Julianos (not even considering the 2% magicka bonus for completing a 5-1-1). So you can take any of the naked Julianos calculations and just add however much more SD you average to figure out Scathing's rank. It should be near BSW in most cases.

Re: Your Necro question. Yes I did consider those factors and mention them when discussing Necropotence in the ranking. If someone has a mathematical way to adjust for those factors I'll happily try to include them, but as it stands it seems largely subjective how much those factors should effect that set's appropriate ranking. Like, how many points should be subtracted for needing to have a pet slotted and active, or for scaling badly with light and heavy attacks? How many should be added for the bonus to shields, pet damage, and extra resources for casting? I just can't say definitively, and these factors are largely situational. For a PvE pet sorc, extra shield size may not be very important and only one damage source may benefit from magicka scaling while other damage sources suffer.

DHale

Thank you for doing this. Appreciate the data rather than opinion and supposition.

Zer0oo

You should also add that heavy and light attacks scale better with mag damage than with max magica.(Don't think the effective spell power shows that)

dpencil1

@Zer0oo
The formula just uses 10.5, so weapon attack scaling is not factored in at all. It's a good point. That 10-20% total parse damage from light and heavy attacks will scale better with gear sets like Julianos, Netch, and BSW than with Necropotence, pushing that set even further down from the rest in terms of total dps potential.

CastaLyron

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Zer0oo
The formula just uses 10.5, so weapon attack scaling is not factored in at all. It's a good point. That 10-20% total parse damage from light and heavy attacks will scale better with gear sets like Julianos, Netch, and BSW than with Necropotence, pushing that set even further down from the rest in terms of total dps potential.

Hi. I did a dmg parse earlier (on live)with pet and light + heavy attacks included. The factor was about 9,2 instead of 10,5, due to pet scoring very high on total dmg.

Just make a weighted avg on your % dmg from various sources and their individual scaling magical vs spell dmg.

it will vary ofc depending on your actual parse.

dpencil1

@CastaLyron
Not sure I follow you. Weapon attacks scale with max resources at a rate of 40:1 in converting magicka to spell damage, while skills scale at a rate of around 10.5:1 in converting magicka to spell damage.

CastaLyron

dpencil1 wrote: »

@CastaLyron
Not sure I follow you. Weapon attacks scale with max resources at a rate of 40:1 in converting magicka to spell damage, while skills scale at a rate of around 10.5:1 in converting magicka to spell damage.

Yes indeed but also the damage from them is not that high. Pet was in my parse the highest damage dealer which only scales in therefore my factor is less than 10,5.
For a non pet user your factor from a parse would be higher than 10,5 because the light and heavy attack will drag your weighted avarage more to the favor of spell damage.

Septimus_Magna

@dpencil1 Good job mate, more ppl should do extensive research like this!

I hope people understand that the highest value doesnt necessarily means the highest dps. Pets only scale with max magicka/spell crit, light/heavy attacks scale better with spell dmg than max magicka, dmg enchants only benefit spell crit/crit dmg etc.

Its difficult to put all factors in perspective but your tests give a good indication of the potential dmg value for each set.

Tornaad

@dpencil1
... wow that was a lot of work ....

Dymence

I see a lot of advocating to revert the nerf to necropotence in your post.

However, it was likely nerfed purely with PVP in mind. In that case, restoring the set wouldn't be an option in the devs' minds.

dpencil1

@CastaLyron
I see, so you're suggesting modifying the calculation with a different coefficient than 10.5 to better reflect the total gain from pet damage and total loss from poor weapon attack scaling.

So let's take Necro's Comparison E as an example using your suggested 9.2 coefficient.

E Necropotence (1096 x 3) + 3150 = 6438 Magicka
36438 Magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 90% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg
5908 (663 over base)

((36438/10.5) + 2000) x (1 + (0.4 x 0.5)) x 0.9 =
3470 + 2000 = 5470 x 1.2 = 6564 x 0.9 = 5907.6 ~ 5908 (663 over base)

((36438/9.2) + 2000) x (1 + (0.4 x 0.5)) x 0.9 =
3960 + 2000 = 5960 x 1.2 = 7152 x 0.9 = 6436.8 ~ 6437 (1192 over base)

That's a pretty huge change. Can you provide the mathematical justification for your 9.2 coefficient?

Just comparing raw stat changes, what I've noted so far comparing Julianos/Spinners to Julianos/Necro is: (4330 additional magicka)
- Shield size increases 2300
- Scamp Pulse tooltip increases by 540, not accounting for extra penetration from Spinner's
- Heavy lightning attack increases by 426, not accounting for extra penetration from Spinner's

So nothing I've seen mathematically would suggest such an enormous power spike, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Xvorg

There are a lot of factors that people don't see beyond calculations, such as class skills, race, etc. For them it's only the comparisson between statistics and sets.

For example, a dunmer magDK build around flame DoTs, using flame glyphs in an charged flame staff should put moar dmg using a combo of sun + mother sorrow, because for dots what matters is crit chance + crit dmg. The same mDK build around burst should use sets that increase that burst, like BSW and spinners.

There's more under the blanket that we are able to see

dpencil1

Dymence wrote: »

I see a lot of advocating to revert the nerf to necropotence in your post.

However, it was likely nerfed purely with PVP in mind. In that case, restoring the set wouldn't be an option in the devs' minds.

@Dymence
I certainly appreciate that the set performs differently in PvE vs PvP. Comparing Julainos/Spinners to Julianos/Necro (yes I know this combo is not ideal for PvP because it lacks any sustain, just bear with me for the sake of argument), the difference in magicka is 4330. This amounts to a 2300 tooltip increase on Ward. This would be amplified 33% to 3059 if using Hardened Ward. Harness magicka's tooltip increases 2177.

Let's look at % amps applied to these values. Don't get concerned over the actual starting values, they are very inflated.
We are just interested in the comparison.
Julianos/Spinners: 33953 x 1.27 = 43120
43120 x 0.531 = 22896 x 1.33 = 30451
43120 x 0.502 = 21646
30451 + 21646 = 52097
52097 / 2 = 26048

Julianos/Necro: 38284 x 1.27 = 48620
48620 x 0.531 = 25817 x 1.33 = 34336
48620 x 0.502 = 24407
34336 + 24407 = 58743
58743 / 2 = 29371

29371 - 26048 = 3323 bigger shield stack with Necro, giving up 3450 Pen.

So, with nerfed Necro, we can see the difference in shield stack size is very small.

Let's do that comparison again with non-nerfed Necro:
Julianos/Spinners: 33953 x 1.27 = 43120
43120 x 0.531 = 22896 x 1.33 = 30451
43120 x 0.502 = 21646
30451 + 21646 = 52097
52097 / 2 = 26048

Julianos/Necro (not nerfed): 38284 + 850 = 39134 x 1.27 = 49700
49700 x 0.531 = 26390 x 1.33 = 35098
49700 x 0.502 = 24949
35098 + 24949 = 60047
60047 / 2 = 30023

30023 - 26048 = 3975 bigger shield stack with Necro (not nerfed), still giving up 3450 Pen.

3975 - 3323 = 652 more damage absorbed in PvP with Necro (not nerfed) than with Necro (nerfed)

CONCLUSION:
The nerf to Necro has a negligible effect on shield size while having a dramatic effect on PvE dps.

dpencil1

@Xvorg
I don't disagree with you. Certainly there are many other factors at play in a full build, and specifically speccing into an area that synergizes with a particular set (like purposefully using all lightning abilities with Netch) will increase its overall effectiveness. The point of this post was simply to examine the set bonuses themselves. You can make additional adjustments using the data in the OP to further help you refine a comparison for your specific build, or run the numbers on a set I didn't cover, such as Sun.

My hope is that this post will spur people on to actually bring math to the table instead of just opinions. There has been so much anti-Sorc rhetoric on the forums that people see a Necro nerf and start cheering or crying without actually examining the change. That's what I have attempted to do here.

P.S. In anyone wants to use the calculator I used, go here: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor
Near the bottom of the first right-hand column is an item called "Effective Spell Power." Click on the pink button next to the value and enter your own stats. This will give you the same kinds of results I get in the OP.

SanTii.92

Dramatic effect? Think that's an overstatement.

Ragnaroek93

The problem with Necropotence was never the DPS, I don't see problems with that set in PvE at all (I don't PvE tho...). There are two problems in PvP with Necropotence. First is absurd shieldscaling with max magicka stat (it is kinda balanced when Julianos gives more damage because Necropotence gives far more defense - on shield builds actually). The second problem is that it gives one stat only and this one stat pushes only tooltip damage. To get high burst you need a high tooltip on your skills (which you only get from max stat or wpn/spelldmg stats) and a high critical damage modifier. Necropotence gives exactly that, it boosts your defense and your tooltip damage so good.

You actually want the nerfs to Necropotence to be reverted (for PvE, which I'm fine with) but what else would you change to make this set balanced in PvP (because in PvP it actually IS absurdly strong and will even be strong after the nerf)?
I don't even like the requirement to pets. Some people actually say that this set should be overpowered because of the requirement to pets which I strongly disagree with. I'm not a fan of sets which become overpowered on builds which have a requirement, it makes them either overpowered or useless most of the time.

Aurielle

This is great, thank you. I am SERIOUSLY kicking myself for getting rid of my Spinners set a while back. Lesson learned: never deconstruct ANYTHING.

SodanTok

This easily proves the nerf was warranted. Obviously that requires reading between the lines and not just absorb the numbers.

Ostaradoe

As someone who does this kind of stuff at work all day every day, and has no desire to carry that over in to my fun time - much kudos and thanks!!

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos

Interesting stuff!

overclocker303b14_ESO

Great post and definitely a lot of good info here.

The numbers don't take some things into account though. For example, if you decide to keep using sharp weapons Spinners will most likely be overkill in a trial environment. Also, sets like scathing mage do inherently better on some classes than others.

Depending on the class 5 scathing 5 julianos or 5 scathing 5 mothers sorrow w/ 1 iceheart or slimecraw might also do well

Dionysus

This is very helpful, thanks for all your work.

From a PVP perspective, it looks like Spinner, Julianos, (and maybe Scathing as it's essentially Julianos with burst) look good

dpencil1

@Ragnaroek93
I demonstrated a few posts ago that if you compare a setup that has 2 magicka and 1 spell damage bonus to Necro, you're coming away with a 3-4k bigger combined Hardened Ward + Harness Magicka. The nerf only reduces that by about 652. Without a nerf, Necro boosts combined shield strength by about 15%. The nerf brings that down to about 12.5%.

The solution is giving shields a diminishing return, so the more magicka you stack the less overall benefit you gain. This could even include any shields currently applied to you. So if you already have Hardened Ward on, the diminising return curve is increased. This sort of thing would not punish people with smaller magicka pools or people who only run one shield much, just stackers.

dpencil1

@SodanTok
Can you explain what you mean? I'd be happy to dialogue with you about it, but your post was rather cryptic and lacked any specifics.

@overclocker303b14_ESO
Yes. I mentioned in the OP as well as further down that builds are more complex than just what the set bonuses themselves give and that specing into things that synergize with certain sets will boost their effecriveness. Specifically, I mentioned in the OP that Spinner's is great assuming you are not at the Pen cap, which you could potentially be at in a Trial.

Malic

Great post.

So the two guys in zone chat last week saying to me "why dont you go test stuff instead of asking other people what they are pulling for DPS you lazy @#$%%" (they were right by the way I am a lazy %^$#)

Why would I go test stuff when there are people out there not only doing it but posting their research methods, variables and results?

IcyDeadPeople

Malic wrote: »

Great post.

So the two guys in zone chat last week saying to me "why dont you go test stuff instead of asking other people what they are pulling for DPS you lazy @#$%%" (they were right by the way I am a lazy %^$#)

Why would I go test stuff when there are people out there not only doing it but posting their research methods, variables and results?

Not to mention the cost and time involved to farm all those different sets and upgrade to gold etc.

Thanks for putting this together @dpencil1

Ashagin

So I have a question. With multiple sources that boost max magicka does Necro become more viable. Let's say my warden with 7% from inner light, 10% from racial then 8% from northern storm ultimate slotted. Combined with 3 ancient grace and 2 willpower (s&b or duel) I can reach 59k and 56k magicka. Most other sets I lose around 8k+ magicka. So is penetration and 400 spell power for a second set that much better?

dpencil1

Thanks guys. While this was a lot of work, it wasn't costly. This was all math done on the UESP website. I had to be somewhat creative since the site isn't updated to HotR changes yet. So I chose an arbitrary baseline of 30k magicka, 2k SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg. I then calculated the difference from the base value that the combination of each set's bonuses were worth and plugged those in to the calculator on the UESP. In each of the comparisons I boosted one of the stats to see how each set improved with more of that stat involved. Then combined those numbers for the chart you see at the beginnng. Later, I went through and added the values of the combined sets together and ran them through in the same way, first unbuffed and then with all 5 parameters buffed.

It was a lot of work, but it was fun for me. I'm a musician, so I don't have an aversion to doing math in my free time like some of you engineers, etc.

QuebraRegra

Dymence wrote: »

I see a lot of advocating to revert the nerf to necropotence in your post.

However, it was likely nerfed purely with PVP in mind. In that case, restoring the set wouldn't be an option in the devs' minds.

yeah, SPINNERS? is this a PVP thing?

ZOS has already started to go down the road of a separating balance changes between PVP/PVE... make it so with a PVP/PVE load out function.