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Necropotence Examination - MORE MATH (pre-HotR)

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UPDATE: EVERYTHING HERE REFLECTS THE STATE OF PTS 3.1.4, AS IT WAS COMPLETED BEFORE HOTR WENT LIVE WITH ADDITIONAL CHANGES TO CRIT BONUSES/PRECISE/THIEF/SHADOW. THEREFORE THESE NUMBERS DO NOT REFLECT A TRUE COMPARISON BETWEEN PRE-HOTR AND HOTR LIVE, BUT PRE-HOTR AND HOTR 3.1.4.

HOWEVER...
THE COMPARATIVE CALCULATIONS TO NECRO AND SPINNERS REMAIN UNCHANGED, WHILE JULIANOS LOSES 2.1% CRIT ON ITS SET BONUSES, REDUCING ITS EFFECTIVENESS SLIGHTLY.
SINCE ALL BUILDS USED PRECISE / THIEF, THE OVERALL DPS POTENTIAL OF EACH BUILD DROPPED EQUALLY ACROSS ALL OF THEM AND SO DOES NOT EFFECT MY CALCULATIONS.


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Unlike my previous post which was a narrowly focused comparison of many sets' bonuses against an arbitrary baseline, here I will try to specifically look at the differences between just three sets in a more realistic build environment. While the benefit of this approach will be providing a more true to life representation, it will also be less general. Players who do not match the parameters of the build I use will differ to a greater or lesser degrees in their own experience from what I present. Additionally, the results here will be entirely mathematically derived, based on the UESP Build Editor. While the editor approximates in-game values extremely well, anamolies can still exist which skew results slightly. Actual in-game testing will always yield the most accurate results. So take this for what it is.

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SUMMARY STATEMENTS (TLDR):
I am writing this after coming to the end of the post, having written it sequentially, in an attempt to briefly sum up my findings. I still strongly encourage going through the whole post though. I will bold the most important parts.

1. The overriding result seems to be that whatever differences there are, they are small and will not make a sizeable impact on the average player. The sets are closer here than in my initial analysis, and most differences occur in a rather small range.
2. Consequently, running any of these sets will achieve similar results, especially if you work to synergize the rest of your build well. The difference between pet strength and weapon attack power essentially cancel each other out, making it unnecessary to think you have to run Necro to run pets. Of course, if you are going for a full summoner build then your total pet power will likely overtake your weapon attack deficit, but not by a wide margin.
3. Julianos is good all around in PvE.
4. Spinner's is good particularly when you are not close to the penetration cap, but still can perform well even when reaching it. Be mindful, though, Gilliamtherogue believes there are underlying in-game factors not represented in the math that work against Spinner's, leading it to parse a little lower than the math would make one expect. It is still a very good set, but will likely not outpace other sets as much as the mathematics would lead one to believe.
5. Necro provides a sizable shield buff compared to any other set, which still makes it strong in PvP despite the nerf. The other factors commonly mentioned such as more resources for casting, pet strength and weapon attack scaling all end up having values too small to really be worth making arguments for or against in terms of how they should impact the set's standing. Since Necro essentially remained the same moving into HotR while other sets got buffed, it has lost some of its standing in PvE and is now unlikely to consistently outparse other builds like Julianos/Mother's Sorrow. Personally, I think leaving the set alone would have left it truly competitive with these other setup choices, but the difference is so small it's certainly still open for debate. More in-game testing by the community will help refine our collective understanding.

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NOTE: BECAUSE THIS POST WAS WRITTEN BEFORE HORNS OF THE REACH, ALL REFERENCES TO LIVE REFER TO PRE-HOTR

These are the sets we will be examining, along with their LIVE variants:

Necro: Necropotence as it is planned to be in HotR
1096 × 3 = 3288 + 3150 = 6438 Magicka

Necro (no nerf): Necropotence in HotR if they did not nerf the 5-piece bonus
3288 + 4000 = 7288 Magicka

Julianos: Julianos considered as the sole 5-piece set.
1096 Magicka, 299 Spell Damage, 1066 × 2 = 2132 ÷ 219 = 9.7% Crit Chance

Julianos (2%): Julianos considered as one of two paired 5-piece light/crafted armor sets. To demonstrate the operational benefit of this set over a second 5-piece light armor set we will add an additional 2% Magicka as compared to the other sets which would only benefit from a 4% Magicka increase for a 6-1 setup vs Julianos' ability to achieve the full 6% bonus.
1096 Magicka, 299 Spell Damage, 9.7% Crit Chance, 2% more magicka

Spinner's PvE: Spinner's as it will appear in HotR with its 5-piece nerfed to 3450 Penetration, against PvE targets.
1096 × 2 = 2192 Magicka, 129 Spell Damage, 3450 ÷ 50000 = 6.9% PvE Penetration
(More discussion on this percent later.)

Spinner's PvP: Spinner's as it will appear in HotR with its 5-piece nerfed to 3450 Penetration, against PvP targets.
1096 × 2 = 2192 Magicka, 129 Spell Damage, 3450 ÷ 66000 = 5.2% PvP Penetration

The only adjustment we will be making for Spinner's PvP will be a 1.7% reduction of Penetration to account for the higher "level" of players as opposed to npcs. We will not be adjusting any of the baseline gear or skills, which will be setup for a PvE environment, mainly because this would bring in far too many corrupting variables to our basic set comparison. Consequently, the base stats will be slightly higher in this case than is probable with a true PvP build.

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So here we go...

Math that gets us to our first chart:
Baseline Build Characteristics:
- Max level/CP Altmer Magicka Sorc with 64 attribute points in Magicka
- 2 Monster pieces med/heavy with 1-piece Magicka bonus, 5 ______, 4 Moondancer, all Legendary, 7 Divines, all magicka/damage enchants,
- Precise staff, Thief mundus: We are choosing these so that the switch from Live to HotR won't effect our values at all, since 7 + 11 = 18 (Live) and 9 + 9 = 18 (HotR)
- Major Sorcery, Major Prophey active via potions
- Major Breach applied by an outside source
- Blue Health/Magicka food
- CP: 56 Ele Expert, 50 Erosion, 54 Elfborn, 75 Thaumaturge, 5 MaA = 230 in Blue tree
- Active skill bar: Crystal Fragments, Force Pulse, Volatile Familiar, Inner Light, Empowered Ward, Thunderous Rage

Bonuses relevant to Max Magicka:
- Altmer passive (10%)
- Inner Light with the Mage's Guild passive (7%)
- 5-1-1 Undaunted Mettle (6%)
- CP 300 (24.6%) <-- 13 × 0.2 = 4.6% + 20%
10 + 7 + 6 = 13 + 24.6 = 47.6%
So we have 47.6% boosted Max Magicka

Necro LIVE: 50127 Magicka, 2502 SD, 65.8% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11346

Prepping HotR calculation:
5 Magicka bonuses increased from 967 to 1096 (3 from Necro, 1 from monster, 1 from Moondancer)
967 × 5 = 4835
1096 × 5 = 5480
5480 - 4835 = 645 more magicka in HotR from 2-4 piece bonuses
4000 - 3150 = 850 less magicka from Necro 5-piece
645 - 850 = -205

50127 ÷ 1.476 = 33961
33961 - 205 = 33756
33756 × 1.476 = 49823

50127 (Live) - 49823 (HotR) = 303 less Magicka in HotR than Live with Necro

Necro HotR: 49823 Magicka, 2502 SD, 65.8% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11302 (0.39% worse than Live)

Prepping HotR Necro (no nerf) calculation:
5 magicka bonuses = 645 more magicka
33961 + 645 = 34606
34606 × 1.476 = 51078

51078 - 50127 = 951 more magicka for HotR Necro (no nerf) than Live Necro

51078 - 49823 = 1255 less magicka for HotR Necro than HotR Necro (no nerf)

Necro (no nerf) HotR
: 51078 Magicka, 2502 SD, 65.8% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11489 (1.26% better than Live)

Julianos LIVE: 42352 Magicka, 2879 SD, 72.1% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11095

47.6% + 2% + 0.4% from CP contribution (which is 0.2% for every 1% added) = 50%
42352 ÷ 1.476 = 28693
28693 x 1.50 = 43039

Julianos (2%) LIVE: 43039 Magicka, 2879 SD, 72.1% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11202

Prepping HotR Julianos calculation:
3 Magicka bonuses increased (1 from Julianos, 1 from monster, 1 from Moondancer)
967 x 3 = 2901
1096 x 3 = 3288
3288 - 2901 = 387
42352 ÷ 1.476 = 28693
28693 + 387 = 29080
29080 x 1.476 = 42922
42922 - 42352 = 570 more magicka for Julianos HotR than Julianos LIVE

2 Crit bonuses increased
688 x 2 = 1376
1066 x 2 = 2132
2132 - 1376 = 756
756 / 219 = 3.45% more crit for Julianos HotR than Julianos LIVE

Juliano HotR: 42922 Magicka, 2879 SD, 75.5% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11357 (2.36% better than Live)

42922 ÷ 1.476 = 29080
29080 x 1.50 = 43620

Julianos (2%) HotR: 43620 Magicka, 2879 SD, 75.5% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 92% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11465 (2.34% better than Live)

4000 ÷ 50000 = 8%

Spinner's PvE LIVE: 43779 Magicka, 2664 SD, 65.8% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 100% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11576

4000 ÷ 66000 = 6%

Spinner's PvP LIVE: 43779 Magicka, 2664 SD, 65.8% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 98% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11345

Prepping HotR Spinner calculation:
4 Magicka bonuses increased (2 from Spinner, 1 from monster, 1 from Moondancer)
967 x 4 = 3868
1096 x 4 = 4384
4384 - 3868 = 516
43779 ÷ 1.476 = 29660
29660 + 516 = 30176
30176 x 1.476 = 44539
44539 - 43779 = 760 more magicka for Spinner's HotR than Spinner's LIVE

8 - 6.9 = 1.1% less PvE Penetration for Spinner's HotR than Spinner's LIVE
6 - 5.2 = 0.8% less PvP Penetration for Spinner's HotR than Spinner's LIVE

Spinner's PvE HotR: 44539 Magicka, 2664 SD, 65.8% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 98.9% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11571 (0.04% weaker than Live)

Spinner's PvP HotR: 44539 Magicka, 2664 SD, 65.8% Crit, 67% Crit Dmg, 12% CP Magic Done, 97.2% Pen, 5% Damage Done
11373 (0.2% weaker than Live)

So here is the chart with all the values we've collected. I will subtract 10000 from each value to better highlight their differences.
ujbv12xdgmjy.jpeg

So we can see how each set impacts our Effective Spell Power, but we should also consider several other aspects of these sets in terms of their additional benefits and drawbacks to get a more full picture of how they compare.

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JULIANOS: This is the most straight-forward set of the three we are looking at. There are no conditions to be met, no circumstances where it behaves differently. The only extra thing to consider is what we have already discussed, namely the ability to finish a 5-1-1 setup due to this set being crafted. The Julianos (2%) represents this benefit, but keep in mind that this benefit is voided when comparing 5/4/2 setups. It is only relevant in a 5/5/1 setup where the other set is a dropped light armor set, when compared to the option of running two 5 piece light armor sets together.
- One point to consider regarding PvP is that the two crit bonuses on this set will be mitigated to a degree due to shields not being critable and players using Impen to reduce crit damage.

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SPINNER'S: The question of whether Spinner's will perform to its full potential all comes down to how much additional penetration you can rely on.
- In PvE, we are trying to hit 18200 without going over, once all sources of penetration are considered. In the case above, I am assuming an environment where the only additional source of penetration other than myself is a tank/healer applying Major Breach. If you are running vMA and can't or don't want to slot Ele Drain, then it will be very unlikely that you will hit the penetration cap. If you are in a trial with Major Breach being applied, and also a tank applying Infused + Toruge's Crusher enchant, and an off-tank wearing Alkosh, the chances are good you will hit the penetration cap easily without Spinner's. So consider the content you are doing and how much penetration you can rely on without Spinner's. If 3450 more would not put you over 18200 then you will get the full value out of it, which will grant you a little under 7% more damage.
- Diminishing Returns: In fact, 7% is the low end of what Spinner's can provide. If you were wearing only Spinner's with no other sources of penetration, it's impact would be closer to 17% rather than 7%. Even still, it's worth getting as close as you can to the penetration cap, but it does mean that for lower CP players, Spinner's should perform even better.
- In PvP, two factors need to be consideres. First, players have a wide variety of resistance levels. A light armor player may only have 10-11k magicka resistance you have to get through, while a heavy armor player might have 20-30k. Second, damage shields do not have any innate resistances, so your Spinner's 5th piece is useless against them. It may help you burst down a shielding opponent after breaking through the shield or if they don't refresh it (like from being CC'd), but you will do less damage to the target when their shield is up than if you were using some other set that increased spell damage or max magicka. When it does hit a non-shielded target, the 5th piece amounts to about 5% more damage.

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NECROPOTENCE: Now to our main focus for this thread. What additional benefits and drawbacks come in to play for Necro in PvE and PvP that should have a bearing on how it compares to the other sets we are considering.

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BENEFITS:
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- More max magicka means MORE CASTS:
To compare Necropotence to Julianos and Spinner's, let's consider an average skill cost of 3000 magicka. This will make our cast potential divisible by 3000, so the relevant max magicka thresholds will be 42k, 48k, and 51k. We will assume the skill we are using is instant cast, and so we can cast it once every second.
Julianos and Spinner's: 42000 ÷ 3000 = 14 casts/seconds before depletion
Necro: 48000 ÷ 3000 = 16 casts/seconds before depletion
Necro (no nerf): 51000 ÷ 3000 = 17 casts/seconds before depletion

Now, it's important to understand that a higher max magicka pool doesn't provide the SAME benefit as more magicka recovery. Two players that have 30k Magicka left in their pool and 798 magicka recovery (which is what all of these builds have) will regenerate and continue to spend magicka at equal rates. There is no added benefit to more max magicka on regen in that context.

However, it does have a SPECIFIC benefit. Namely, that it takes longer to run out of resources initially compared to a player with lower resources. That extra time of free casting equates to some extra UPFRONT resource regeneration.

Rounding up all of our builds' magicka regen to 800 from 796 for simplicity, and knowing that magicka recovery is applied every two seconds, we can divide this number by 2 to examine how much magicka regen all of these builds have innately per second.
800 ÷ 2 = 400 magicka regen per seconds

Leaving Necro (no nerf) for our final consideration, we'll compare Necro to Julianos and Spinner's first, which puts our magicka ceiling at 48k. Now, for a player with fully depleted resources and 400 regen, it would take them 120 seconds (2 minutes) to allow their magicka recovery to fully restore that magicka pool without using any other tools for regen like heavy attacks, potions, poisons, etc.
48000 ÷ 400 = 120

Now we know that Julianos and Spinners' would take 14 casts/seconds to deplete their resource pool. During that 14 seconds, the player would still be regenerating magicka, which means it would take them 14 seconds less to reach 48k. We want to compare hitting the same ceiling as Necro to see the difference between them, and it is possible for Julianos and Spinner's to regenerate that much magicka even though their pool is smaller because the player will be continuing to spend magicka as they generate it and so will not stop regenerating due to having hit their own resource ceiling.
120 - 14 = 106
48000 ÷ 106 = 452.83 x 2 = 905 effective magicka recovery

To confirm this, how much time would it take for a player starting at 0 magicka to get to 48000 magicka with 452.83 regen per second?
48000 ÷ 452.83 = 106 seconds

So over roughly the first 2 minutes of combat, a player with 42k magicka has an effective magicka recovery of 905, which would then drop back down to 800 until the player is able to fully replenish their resource pool again.
905 - 800 = 105 additional effective magicka recovery in the first 2 minutes of combat

Applying the same process to Necro:
120 - 16 = 104
48000 ÷ 104 = 461.53 x 2 = 923
923 - 800 = 123 additional effective magicka recovery in the first 2 minutes of combat
123 - 105 = 18 more effective magicka recovery in the first 2 minutes of combat with Necro vs. Julianos and Spinner's.

Now let's compare against Necro (no nerf). For this, we need to recalculate Julianos and Spinner's to the higher 51k ceiling:

51000 ÷ 400 = 127.5
127.5 - 14 = 113.5
Julianos and Spinner's: 51000 ÷ 113.5 = 449.34 x 2 = 898
898 - 800 = 98 additional effective recovery in the first 2 minutes of combat (slightly longer than the previous calculation, we are just using a broad time increment here)

127.5 - 17 = 110.5
Necro (no nerf): 51000 ÷ 110.5 = 461.53 x 2 = 923
923 - 800 = 123 additional effective recovery in the the first 2 minutes of combat

923 - 898 = 25 more effective magicka recovery in the first 2 minutes of combat with Necro (no nerf) vs. Julianos and Spinner's.

127.5 - 16 = 111.5
Necro: 51000 ÷ 111.5 = 457.34 x 2 = 914
914 - 800 = 114 additional effective recovery in the first 2 minutes of combat

923 - 914 = 9 more effective magicka recovery in the first 2 minutes of combat with Necro (no nerf) vs. Necro.

Comparing the difference between Necro (nerf)'s boost over Necro as well as Julianos and Spinner's, it appears that every extra cast available equates to about 8-9 more magicka recovery over roughly the first 2 minutes of combat.

To complete the above calculations, we focused only on the key resource values that would have been divisible by our average 3000 magicka cost skill. Having any more magicka before hitting the next divisible threshold wouldn't make any difference. Of course in real play, you will use skills with various values, so even castable values smaller than a full integer can provide a small boost. With that in mind, here are the true values for dividing each setup's max magicka by 3000:

Necro LIVE: 50127 Magicka / 3000 = 16.706
Necro HotR: 49823 Magicka / 3000 = 16.607
Necro (no nerf) HotR: 51078 Magicka / 3000 = 17.026
Julianos LIVE: 42352 Magicka / 3000 = 14.117
Julianos (2%) LIVE: 43039 Magicka / 3000 = 14.346
Juliano HotR: 42922 Magicka / 3000 = 14.307
Julianos HotR (2%): 43620 Magicka / 3000 = 14.54
Spinner's PvE/PvP LIVE: 43779 Magicka / 3000 = 14.593
Spinner's PvE/PvP HotR: 44539 Magicka / 3000 = 14.846

a813dlc4k0x7.jpeg

Necro in HotR will lose 0.1 to its castable value, so remains essentially unchanged. Necro's benefit over Julianos and Spinner's only amounts to about 18 more effective magicka recovery over roughly the first 2 minutes of combat. Considering all of these sets have a magicka recovery of 798, this amounts to a 2.25% temporary boost to magicka recovery for Necro.

If Necro (no nerf) is considered instead, it gains 0.3 castable value, enough to move into the next divisible zone for our average 3000 magicka skill. This results in a gain of about 9 more effective magicka recovery over roughly 2 minutes when compared to Necro Live and Necro HotR. Against Julianos and Spinner's it moves to about 25 more effective magicka recovery over the first 2 minutes of combat. This amounts to a 3.13% temporary boost to magicka recovery for Necro (no buff). So the percentage difference increase for Necro (no buff) over Necro would only be 0.88%.

CONCLUSION:
The question of whether additional magicka for casting should weigh against Necro's ESP position depends on whether you think that 18 or 25 more effective magicka recovery over roughly the first 2 minutes of combat warrants any kind of adjustment. To me, the extra benefit of 2 or 3 more casts at the beginning of a fight is so small that it should have no meaningful bearing on Necro's ESP position.


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- More max magicka means BIGGER SHIELDS:
For this comparison, we will examine the tooltip values of Hardened Ward (including the 33% increase) and Harness Magicka. Since the primary concern about shield size is PvP-based and has no significant bearing on PvE, we will be looking at stacking these two commonly used shields on magicka Sorcerer. To view the impact that each set has on shield size, we will compare each build to a baseline where no 5-piece set is active. Also, to simulate a PvP environment, we will half the shield sizes. Keep in mind the rest of our gear is PvE based, and so the actual values of the shields we get may be different from a true PvP build using different complimentary sets. This is not relevant to our comparison, though, as we are only concerned with how much bigger the shields are from the baseline, which will be entirely what the set we are looking at provides.

First, lets look at LIVE values, except for Julianos (2%):

Baseline LIVE: 36210 Magicka, 16036 HW, 15141 HM
16036 x 1.33 = 21327 ÷ 2 = 10663
15141 ÷ 2 = 7570
10663 + 7570 = 18233

Necro LIVE: 50127 Magicka, 22200 HW, 20960 HM
22200 x 1.33 = 29526 ÷ 2 = 14763
20960 ÷ 2 = 10480
14763 + 10480 = 25243
25243 - 18233 = 7010 bigger shield stack than Baseline LIVE

Julianos LIVE: 42352 Magicka, 18757 HW, 17709 HM
18757 x 1.33 = 24946 ÷ 2 = 12473
17709 ÷ 2 = 8853
12473 + 8853 = 21326
21326 - 18233 = 3093 bigger shield stack that Baseline LIVE

Spinner's LIVE: 43779 Magicka, 19388 HW, 18306 HM
19388 x 1.33 = 25786 ÷ 2 = 12893
18306 ÷ 2 = 9153
12893 + 9153 = 22046
22046 - 18233 = 3813 bigger shield stack than Baseline LIVE

Now let's see if we can derive a consistent ratio of max magicka to total shield stack size:

36210 / 18233 = 1.9859595
50127 / 25243 = 1.9857782
42352 / 21326 = 1.9859326
43779 / 22046 = 1.9858024

So using a ratio of 1.9858 will work for us. We will simply divide each max magicka value by 1.9858 to get the total shield stack size of each build.

Julianos (2%) LIVE
: 43039 Magicka / 1.9858 = 21673
21673 - 18233 = 3440 bigger shield stack than Baseline LIVE

Prepping HotR calculation:
2 Magicka bonuses increased from 967 to 1096 (1 from monster, 1 from Moondancer)
967 × 2 = 1934
1096 × 2 = 2192
2192 - 1934 = 258 more magicka in HotR

36210 ÷ 1.476 = 24532
24532 + 258 = 24790
24790 × 1.476 = 36590

Baseline: 36590 Magicka / 1.9858 = 18425

Necro: 49823 Magicka / 1.9858 = 25089 (36.168% more than Baseline)
25089 - 18425 = 6664 bigger shield stack than Baseline

Necro (no nerf): 51078 Magicka / 1.9858 = 25721 (39.598% more than Baseline)
25721 - 18425 = 7296 bigger shield stack than Baseline

Julianos: 42922 Magicka / 1.9858 = 21614 (17.308% more than Baseline)
21614 - 18425 = 3189 bigger shield stack than Baseline

Julianos (2%): 43620 Magicka / 1.9858 = 21965 (19.213% more than Baseline)
21965 - 18425 = 3540 bigger shield stack than Baseline

Spinner's: 43779 Magicka / 1.9858 = 22046 (19.652% more than Baseline)
22046 - 18425 = 3621 bigger shield stack than Baseline

The following chart shows the shield sizes over their respective Baseline values:
t7bhtw9f9yii.jpeg

The difference from Necro (no nerf) to Julianos is:
7296 - 3189 = 4107
25721 / 21614 = 19% bigger

The difference from Necro to Julianos is:
6664 - 3189 = 3475
25089 / 21614 = 16% bigger

The difference from Necro to Julianos (2%) is:
6664 - 3540 = 3043
25089 / 21965 = 14.222% bigger

The difference from Necro to Spinner's is:
6664 - 3621 = 3043
25089 / 22046 = 13.8% bigger

The amount of shield stack reduced by the nerf to Necropotence is:
7296 - 6664 = 632
25721 / 25089 = 2.519% smaller

CONCLUSION:
Since the size of damage shields is tied to max magicka and no other value, it is not surprising that Necropotence outpaces Julianos and Spinner's by a rather wide margin. Even with the nerf, Necro still provides 36% increased shield size over our Baseline and 16% over Julianos. We notice that even with the nerf to the 5th piece bonus, we only lose 2.519% of our shield stack size, so if the point of the nerf was to tone down shield stacking, it really doesn't do much to accomplish that. At the same time, remember that shield size is largely irreverent in PvE. Even the 15k Harness Magicka from our Baseline LIVE build would be sufficient for 99% of all PvE content. So from a PvE perspective, it seems that the improved shield size we see from Necro should not have a bearing on its ESP. From a PvP perspective, there is a clear defensive advantage with running Necro, which the nerf did little to mitigate. And the fundamental question remains: "Should one set provide 13-16% bigger shields over other sets and still provide the same damage output?" At least in PvP, the honest answer is clearly "no." So some negative positioning of Necro seems appropriate to account for this. The unfortunate side effect is that PvE ESP positioning also gets effected, even though larger shield size doesn't warrant a reduction in that environment.

SUGGESTION:
It seems to me that if the dev team does feel that shield size remains a problem, even after applying the 50% reduction in PvP some time ago, then another strategy other than nerfing max magicka sets is warranted. Either create a Major/Minor buff category for shields, so that things like Hardened Ward and Harness Magicka will overwrite one another with the same Major Shielding buff rather than stack, or else apply a diminishing returns factor to shield stacking that reduces the size of shields applied based on how much shielding you currently have applied. Either of these solutions would satisfy any issues that Necro poses in PvP and allow it to be tuned specifically for DPS to stay competitive and even BiS by a respectable margin for any pet-based build.


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- More max magicka means STRONGER PETS:
Similar to how we approached shields, we will examine our build without any 5-piece set as our Baseline, and then note the changes in Volatile Familiar Damage Pulse tooltip strength on each build. Because Crit and Penetration both effect pet strength but do not appear on the tooltip, we will need multiply our tooltip values by those to get a more accurate result. Again, we will do the LIVE versions first, except Julianos (2%) and see if we can derive a ratio to max magicka. Note that we will NOT be adding in any "attacker bonus" (CP, damage done, damage taken). These would be the same across all builds and so would needlessly inflate our numbers. Consequently, the damage numbers listed here will be smaller than in-game, but should still be the same in relationship to one another.

Baseline LIVE: 36210 Magicka, 3698 Pulse
3698 x 1.44 = 5325 x 0.92 = 4899

Necro LIVE: 50127 Magicka, 5118 Pulse
5118 x 1.44 = 7369 x 0.92 = 6779
6779 / 4899 = 38.6% increase over Baseline Live

Julianos LIVE: 42352 Magicka, 4324 Pulse
4324 x 1.483 = 6412 x 0.92 = 5899
5899 / 4899 = 20.4% increase over Baseline Live

Spinner's PvE LIVE: 43779 Magicka, 4470 Pulse
4470 x 1.44 = 6436 x 1.00 = 6436
6436 / 4899 = 31.3% increase over Baseline Live

Spinner's PvP LIVE: 43779 Magicka, 4470 Pulse
4470 x 1.44 = 6436 x 0.98 = 6307
6307 / 4899 = 28.7% increase over Baseline Live

36210 / 3698 = 9.7817793
50127 / 5118 = 9.7942555
42352 / 4324 = 9.7946345
43779 / 4470 = 9.7939595

We can go with 9.794 for this one.

Julianos (2%) LIVE: 43039 Magicka / 9.794 = 4394 Pulse
4394 x 1.483 = 6516 x 0.92 = 5994
5994 / 4899 = 22.6% increase over Baseline Live

Baseline: 36590 Magicka / 9.794 = 3735 Pulse
3735 x 1.44 = 5378 x 0.92 = 4947

Necro: 49823 Magicka / 9.794 = 5087 Pulse
5087 x 1.44 = 7325 x 0.92 = 6739
6739 / 4947 = 36.2% increase over Baseline

Necro (no nerf): 51078 Magicka / 9.794 = 5215 Pulse
5215 x 1.44 = 7509 x 0.92 = 6908
6908 / 4947 = 39.6% increase over Baseline

Julianos: 42922 Magicka / 9.794 = 4382 Pulse
4382 x 1.5 = 6573 x 0.92 = 6047
6047 / 4947 = 22.2% increase over Baseline

Julianos (2%): 43620 Magicka / 9.794 = 4453 Pulse
4453 x 1.5 = 6679 x 0.92 = 6144
6144 / 4947 = 24.2% increase over Baseline

Spinner's PvE: 43779 Magicka / 9.794 = 4469 Pulse
4469 x 1.44 = 6435 x 0.989 = 6364
6364 / 4947 = 28.6% increase over Baseline

Spinner's PvP
: 43779 Magicka / 9.794 = 4469 Pulse
4469 x 1.44 = 6435 x 0.972 = 6254
6254 / 4947 = 26.4% increase over Baseline

The following chart lists all percentage increases over the Baseline for pet damage:
dqhcfsm6xhs1.jpeg

So comparing Necro to the next best option here, Spinner's PvE, you gain about 7.6% pet damage from Necro or 11% with Necro (no nerf).
On the bottom end, you gain 14% over Julianos with Necro and 17.4% with Necro (no nerf).
So we have a range of about 7-17%, or 7-14% not considering Necro (no nerf) going into HotR.

In a Pet Sorcerer parse, the Familiar Damage Pulse can often account for 12-13% of your total dps. The Familiar's basic attack is very weak, amounting to 1% or less of your total dps.

Let's first look at the LIVE versions of Julianos and Necropotence to see what changes moving into HotR. Julianos LIVE is missing out on 18.2% extra damage from the Familiar. And we'll say the Familiar accounts for 14% of our total DPS. In a 38000 parse we would get:
38000 x 0.14 = 5320 dps
38.6 - 20.4 = 18.2%
5320 x 0.182 = 968.24 dps
38968 / 38000 = 2.547% total dps loss from Julianos LIVE over Necro LIVE, all else being equal.

In the best case LIVE scenario, Necro LIVE vs. Spinner's PvE LIVE:
38.6 - 28.7 = 9.9%
5320 x 0.099 = 526.68
38526 / 38000 = 1.384% total loss from Spinner's PvE LIVE

And looking at Necro LIVE vs. Julianos (2%) LIVE:
38.6 - 22.6 = 16%
5320 x 0.16 = 851.2
38851 / 38000 = 2.239% total loss from Julianos (2%) LIVE

Now let's take Necro (no nerf) compared to Julianos in HotR, we have 17.4% lost dps.
39.6 - 22.2 = 17.4%
5320 x 0.174 = 925.68 dps
38925 / 38000 = 2.434% total dps loss from Julianos

Necro compared to Julianos:
36.2 - 22.2 = 14%
5320 x 0.14 = 744
38744 / 38000 = 1.957% total dps loss from Julianos

Necro compared to Julianos (2%)
36.2 x 24.2 = 12%
5320 x 0.12 = 638.4
38638 / 38000 = 1.679% total dps loss from Julianos

Necro compared to Spinner's PvE
36.2 - 28.6 = 7.6%
5320 x 0.076 = 404.32
38404 / 38000 = 1.063% total dps loss from Spinner's

Comparing the difference between Necro LIVE and Necro:

38.6 - 36.2 = 2.4% loss in HotR

Comparing Necro LIVE and Necro (no nerf)
39.6 - 38.6 = 1% gain in HotR

CONCLUSION:
Considering that the move from LIVE to HotR amounts to about a 2.4% drop in total dps from the Familiar weakening, while sets like Julianos (2%) and Spinner's PvE close the gap to within 1-1.6% total dps less than Necro, one of the biggest negative impacts of the Necro nerf is seen here. Indeed, the gap wasn't amazingly wide even with LIVE, but the buffs to 2-4 piece bonuses combined with the Necro nerf amout to a noticable loss of distinctivness for Necro. Yes, it will still do the most pet damage, but not by much, leaving other sets' ability to outpace the loss with more dps on non-pet skills. If Necro had not been nerfed, it would have gained 1% more total dps, which would have helped keep pace at least somewhat with the buffs other set received.

----
DRAWBACKS:
----

- PET REQUIRED for 5th piece bonus:
The set requires a living combat pet for its 5th piece bonus to apply. This means that a player wanting to run a build without a pet will not see a benefit to this set over pretty much any other 5-piece set. This limits Sorcerers moreso than Wardens and Nightblades since their pets require 2 skill slots, while the Warden/Nightblade can easily keep this set active with the Betty Netch skill or the Shades skill, which cannot be killed and only require one bar slot.

PVE: In PvE, the question is, "does slotting a pet enable enough dps to be worth it?" For Sorcerers and Wardens, the answer is a pretty strong yes, as the Volatile Familiar and Betty Netch are both strong skills worthy of finding a home on a PvE player's bar, even without Necro. For Nightblades, this is less so, as their Shades skill is primarily defensive, though for content like vMA can be quite handy. So if keeping a strong pet skill on your bars isn't much of a hinderance, how is this a drawback?
1. Sorcerer pets require two skill slots, so you're giving up more utility for the pet than other classea have to.
2. Sorcerer pets don't have great AI and can get lost/stuck or killed by standing in red or by one-shot mechanics, forcing the caster to lose time resummoning.
- Neither of these issues effect Wardens using Netch (but do apply if just using the Warden's bear) or Nightblades using Shades. So in those cases, if the player was planning to run those skills anyway, this is not a drawback for them.

PVP: In PvP, a "meta" non-pet magicka Sorc won't be able to run this set because they simply do not have the bar space to accommodate either the Familiar of the Matriarch. If they do chose to run a pet build, they will be sacrificing some of the standard utility of PvP magicka sorcs to do so. Wardens and Nightblades won't feel as significant a cost unless they were not planning on running the skills that enable Necro anyway.

CONCLUSION:
Although pets can be a hinderance in some contexts for Sorcerers, in general they are not, and don't strongly demand a positive adjustment to Necro's position. If this set only worked with Sorcerer pets, perhaps it would be another matter, but we have to consider the other classes that are able to use the set as well with less difficulty. Due to the non-mathematical assesment of this drawback, it remains largely subjective what sort of impact, if any, it should have on ESP.


----

- WEAPONS ATTACKS SCALE BADLY with max magicka
Because weapon attacks scale at a rate of about 10.5:1 with Spell Damage, just like abilities, but only scale at about 40:1 with Max Magicka, unlike abilities, sets that focus predominantly on max magicka bonuses, such as Necro, will suffer from overall weaker weapon light and heavy attacks than sets that boost spell damage, crit, or penetrarion.

Weapon attacks usually make up about 15-20% of a dps parse. This is what each of the builds list as their respective values in Live and HotR:

In a previous 78 second parse using a pet sorc build I got:
42 Light Attacks
7 Heavy Attacks
A rate of 6:1.
...which makes sense since we are doing an 8 second rotation with one HA that lasts 2 seconds.

So we will do: ((LA x 6) + HA) × ((Crit Chance x Crit Damage) + 1) x Penetration

The values listed here are taken directly from the UESP Build Editor and represent what would be actual in-game damage.

Necro LIVE: LA = 2619 HA = 11853
2619 x 6 = 15714+ 11853 = 27567
0.658 x 0.67 = 0.44 + 1 = 1.44
27567 x 1.44 = 39696 x 0.92 = 36520

Necro HotR: LA = 2613 HA = 11826
2613 x 6 = 15678 + 11826 = 27504
0.658 x 0.67 = 0.44 + 1 = 1.44
27504 x 1.44 = 39605 x 0.92 = 36436 (0.2% worse than Live)

Necro (no nerf) HotR: LA = 2636 HA = 11928
2636 x 6 = 15816 + 11928 = 27744
0.658 x 0.67 = 0.44 + 1 = 1.44
27744 x 1.44 = 39951 x 0.92 = 36755 (0.6% better than Live)

Julianos LIVE: LA = 2745 HA = 12425
2745 x 6 = 16470 + 12425 = 28895
0.658 x 0.67 = 0.44 + 1 = 1.44
28895 x 1.44 = 41608 x 0.92 = 38279

Julianos (2%) LIVE: LA = 2758 HA = 12484
2758 x 6 = 16548 + 12484 = 29032
0.658 x 0.67 = 0.44 + 1 = 1.44
29032 x 1.44 = 41806 x 0.92 = 38461

Julianos HotR: LA = 2757 HA = 12477
2757 x 6 = 16542 + 12477 = 29019
0.755 x 0.67 = 0.505 + 1 = 1.505
28895 x 1.505 = 43486 x 0.92 = 40007 (4.5% better than Live)

Julianos (2%) HotR: LA = 2768 HA = 12530
2768 x 6 = 16608 + 12530 = 29138
0.755 x 0.67 = 0.505 + 1 = 1.505
29138 x 1.505 = 43852 x 0.92 = 40343 (4.9% better than Live)

Spinner's PvE LIVE: LA = 2621 HA = 11863
2621 x 6 = 15726 + 11863 = 27589
0.658 x 0.67 = 0.44 + 1 = 1.44
27589 x 1.44 = 39728 x 1 = 39728

Spinner's PvP LIVE: LA = 2621 HA = 11863
2621 x 6 = 15726 + 11863 = 27589
0.658 x 0.67 = 0.44 + 1 = 1.44
27589 x 1.44 = 39728 x 0.98 = 38933

Spinner's PvE HotR: LA = 2636 HA = 11928
2636 x 6 = 15816 + 11928 = 27744
0.658 x 0.67 = 0.44 + 1 = 1.44
27744 x 1.44 = 39951 x 0.989 = 39511 (0.5% worse than Live)

Spinner's PvP HotR: LA = 2636 HA = 11928
2636 x 6 = 15816 + 11928 = 27744
0.658 x 0.67 = 0.44 + 1 = 1.44
27744 x 1.44 = 39951 x 0.972= 38832 (0.02% worse than Live)

30000 has been removed from each value to show the difference between results more clearly.
ffhcttdeyds1.jpeg

Julianos (2%) vs Necro
40343 / 36432 = 10.735% more weapon damage with Julianos (2%) than Necro

In a 38000 dps parse, if weapon attacks made up 20% of the total dps (which they did in the 78 second parse I mentioned above), they would be worth 7600 dps. Out of that, the difference between Necro and Julainos would amount to about 10% of 7600, or 760 dps. So, all else being equal, if Necro parsed for 38000, Julianos would parse for 38760.
38760 / 38000 = 2% more total dps from weapon attacks with Julianos (2%) than Necro

CONCLUSION:
Whatever gains Necro makes with pet damage seem to be counteracted very closely by its weak weapon attack scaling, so much so that it is likely that builds that are strong with weapon attacks and non-pet skills will be able to overtake any pet damage deficit.


----

Thanks for reading! I know it was a lot. I basically used this post like a workbook, figuring out the data as I went. If I made any errors, please feel free to call them out and I will do my best to correct them.

Remember that while all the values I used were realistic, they were made within a specific build context. The info here is meant to provide a broad view of how the various topics covered interact with each other. Actual in-game dps testing will always be able to give the most accurate results, so I encourage those who are interested in this info to get in game, test, and share your own findings so we can all continue to understand, appreciate and dominate ESO together.
Edited by dpencil1 on August 15, 2017 7:14AM
  • OutLaw_Nynx
    OutLaw_Nynx
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    Have an insightful. You went really into depth
  • Morgul667
    Morgul667
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Thanks this is insightful and awesome :)
  • ForsakenSin
    ForsakenSin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    3777411.jpg
    "By many i am seen as hero...as a savior of the Tamriel i will not stop until every Daedra every evil there is in Tamriel is vanquish by my hands..
    However i do this for my own purpose to gain trust of mortals to worship me and to eliminate my competition i will not bend my knee to lead your army to serve you Molag Bal , i will simply just take it from you.."--- Forsaken Sin( Magica Sorc)



    Arise From Darkness Forsaken SIn
    "You have been a loyal High Elf Magica Sorc
    Conjure of Darkness, Master of Magic
    Killer of Molag Bal and Savior of Ebonheart Pact
    Until Dark Brotherhood killed you...
    but now..NOW its time to Arise From Darkness once again..."

  • CastaLyron
    CastaLyron
    ✭✭
    Thanks. I think this is a better analysis because you weight the max magicka and spell damage impact on skills more in context than your first thread. Necro will still be a decent set if you value the full package including shields and ability to cast more. However if you look for max dps even with pets, like for example a trial setting, then it looks like necro is outpaced by the sets that are buffed more.

    As a side-effect of all these buffs to sets, I think running a 2x5 set bonus will be critical. Also I think the Maelstrom staff will not be BiS anymore therefore better to get a 1x bonus from a monster helm.
    A staff infused with a damage enchant looks promising if it comes in the set you are using. Especially lightning enchant on a sorcerer (besides damage can proc disintegrate+concussed), will be pretty powerful.
    Funnily enough I don't see any trial items being best anymore as well, which is a surprising turn from ZOS ?

    When people start pulling parses on HotR, we will see if the math sticks.
  • ForsakenSin
    ForsakenSin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    So for the max dps would be julianos , mother's sorrow ( all divines?) with infused staff with lighting enchant , using 1 heavy 1 Med , 1 monster, SD on rings and jewelry and for mondus magica regen ?
    Edited by ForsakenSin on August 14, 2017 6:49AM
    "By many i am seen as hero...as a savior of the Tamriel i will not stop until every Daedra every evil there is in Tamriel is vanquish by my hands..
    However i do this for my own purpose to gain trust of mortals to worship me and to eliminate my competition i will not bend my knee to lead your army to serve you Molag Bal , i will simply just take it from you.."--- Forsaken Sin( Magica Sorc)



    Arise From Darkness Forsaken SIn
    "You have been a loyal High Elf Magica Sorc
    Conjure of Darkness, Master of Magic
    Killer of Molag Bal and Savior of Ebonheart Pact
    Until Dark Brotherhood killed you...
    but now..NOW its time to Arise From Darkness once again..."

  • Beardimus
    Beardimus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Epic post, huge help to the community!!
    Edited by Beardimus on August 14, 2017 7:03AM
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus - VR16 (750CP) Dunmer Dual Wield MagSorc [Conquering Hero]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-02-18 / 16-02-18
    Alts - - for the Lolz
    Archimus - Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
    Orcimus - Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
    Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master

    Fighting for : The SAXON Guild
    Fighting with [PvP] : The Lunar Wolves
    Trading Guilds : TradersOfNirn | TradersOfNirn2
    Trials : Saviors
  • CastaLyron
    CastaLyron
    ✭✭
    So for the max dps would be julianos , mother's sorrow ( all divines?) with infused staff , using 1 heavy 1 Med , 1 monster, SD on rings and jewelry and for mondus magica regen ?

    With all the extra crit chance from mothers sorrow, it will be best to run with the shadow stone to increase the damage on all them crits.
    Other mundus will be good in different context, but not for damage in that setup.
  • ForsakenSin
    ForsakenSin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    CastaLyron wrote: »
    So for the max dps would be julianos , mother's sorrow ( all divines?) with infused staff , using 1 heavy 1 Med , 1 monster, SD on rings and jewelry and for mondus magica regen ?

    With all the extra crit chance from mothers sorrow, it will be best to run with the shadow stone to increase the damage on all them crits.
    Other mundus will be good in different context, but not for damage in that setup.

    That's is true , but you can always gain that by placing more cp points into Elfborn and still have nice magica regen from mondus?
    "By many i am seen as hero...as a savior of the Tamriel i will not stop until every Daedra every evil there is in Tamriel is vanquish by my hands..
    However i do this for my own purpose to gain trust of mortals to worship me and to eliminate my competition i will not bend my knee to lead your army to serve you Molag Bal , i will simply just take it from you.."--- Forsaken Sin( Magica Sorc)



    Arise From Darkness Forsaken SIn
    "You have been a loyal High Elf Magica Sorc
    Conjure of Darkness, Master of Magic
    Killer of Molag Bal and Savior of Ebonheart Pact
    Until Dark Brotherhood killed you...
    but now..NOW its time to Arise From Darkness once again..."

  • CastaLyron
    CastaLyron
    ✭✭
    CastaLyron wrote: »
    So for the max dps would be julianos , mother's sorrow ( all divines?) with infused staff , using 1 heavy 1 Med , 1 monster, SD on rings and jewelry and for mondus magica regen ?

    With all the extra crit chance from mothers sorrow, it will be best to run with the shadow stone to increase the damage on all them crits.
    Other mundus will be good in different context, but not for damage in that setup.

    That's is true , but you can always gain that by placing more cp points into Elfborn and still have nice magica regen from mondus?

    With diminishing reutrns dont pump it too much and stacking with shadow to about 70-80% will actually be pretty OK to correspond the high crit chance. You also need penetration via CP to account for sharpened loss/nerf... so yea its a bit of a puzzle to make it right for you.
  • Jawasa
    Jawasa
    ✭✭✭
    The dont nerf necro Community has taken it to a whole new lvl I'm dying. XD
  • Gilliamtherogue
    Gilliamtherogue
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I love reading through analytical threads like this but,
    Spoilers are your friend
    Old member of The Order of Mundus, Mostly Harmless, Hostile, and Genesis Elite. Avid theorycrafter. Herald to competitive stamina DPS pre 1.5. How far we've come!

    Have questions? Send me a message on the forums or my other social media. Seeing people learn is my dream and passion.

    Guides and other fun videos at https://youtube.com/c/gilliamtherogue
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Gilliamtherogue
    LOL! Yeah, good point.

    So, seeing that the crit buff, thief, and shadow were reduced in the patch release, I think this will help to keep Julianos and Necropotence closer than they were in my analysis.

    I think the explanation they gave that sets with conditions could have 5-piece bonuses that were about 25% stronger than identical sets without conditions was very helpful too.

    Time to start theory crafting all over again with the new values!
  • Megabear
    Megabear
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I stopped farming Morrow after 2 days of "Morrow bis" patch, then bought a bunch of Necro pieces instead while they were cheap :) I figured Morrow would be nerfed and I bought Necro because I just wanted to gear my poor alts "cheaply" that had random mix of gears.
    Edited by Megabear on August 14, 2017 3:17PM
    Guide to making $$$ in Tamriel: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/370618/guide-to-making-gold-in-eso/p1?new=1
    Cost analysis for potential ESO players: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367919/cost-analysis-for-brand-new-potential-pc-eso-players#latest
    Warden Bow Healer/DPS Hybrid Build: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/warden-bow-healerdps-hybrid/
    Warden "The Warladin" Healer/Tank Hybrid Build: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/warden-the-warladin-healertank-hybrid-build/
    Warden Stamina DPS Build: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/warden-dps-build/
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    Ecaeri - (M) Warden/Female/Argonian
    Dun-and-Dunmer - (M) Dragon Knight/Male/Dunmer
    What Can Go Wong - (S) Night Blade/Male/Bosmer
    Izaer - (M) Templar/Male/Breton
  • Texecutioner187
    Texecutioner187
    ✭✭✭
    I'm wondering how actual damage output will compare with my current Necro/Moondancer/Ilambris setup against something like Spinners/Mother Sorrow.... I don't necessarily feel like I need the pet build... It's just worked for me lately. I wouldn't mind having higher DPS output and sacrificing the Necro set come HotR
  • Pele
    Pele
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    Thank-you very much for this.
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Added to the top of the OP:
    UPDATE: EVERYTHING HERE REFLECTS THE STATE OF PTS 3.1.4, AS IT WAS COMPLETED BEFORE HOTR WENT LIVE WITH ADDITIONAL CHANGES TO CRIT BONUSES/PRECISE/THIEF/SHADOW. THEREFORE THESE NUMBERS DO NOT REFLECT A TRUE COMPARISON BETWEEN PRE-HOTR AND HOTR LIVE, BUT PRE-HOTR AND HOTR 3.1.4.

    HOWEVER...
    THE COMPARATIVE CALCULATIONS TO NECRO AND SPINNERS REMAIN UNCHANGED, WHILE JULIANOS LOSES 2.1% CRIT ON ITS SET BONUSES, REDUCING ITS EFFECTIVENESS SLIGHTLY.
    SINCE ALL BUILDS USED PRECISE / THIEF, THE OVERALL DPS POTENTIAL OF EACH BUILD DROPPED EQUALLY ACROSS ALL OF THEM AND SO DOES NOT EFFECT MY CALCULATIONS.


    ----

    Basically, if I ran all the numbers again, the total Effective Spell Power for all sets would drop by an equal amount with regard to Trait/Mundus, and so can be disregarded. So only the 2 crit set bonuses on Julianos end up being different, giving about 2% less crit than they otherwise would have.

    Also, I added spoilers as per Gilliamtherogue's suggestion.
    Edited by dpencil1 on August 15, 2017 7:15AM
  • Septimus_Magna
    Septimus_Magna
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    CastaLyron wrote: »
    So for the max dps would be julianos , mother's sorrow ( all divines?) with infused staff , using 1 heavy 1 Med , 1 monster, SD on rings and jewelry and for mondus magica regen ?

    With all the extra crit chance from mothers sorrow, it will be best to run with the shadow stone to increase the damage on all them crits.
    Other mundus will be good in different context, but not for damage in that setup.

    Nope, crits deal the same dmg with Apprentice mundus with higher non-crit dmg.
    Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
    Magna Firebreath - Dunmer Dragon Knight
    Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
    Septimus Rulanir - Altmer Templar
    Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
  • CastaLyron
    CastaLyron
    ✭✭
    CastaLyron wrote: »
    So for the max dps would be julianos , mother's sorrow ( all divines?) with infused staff , using 1 heavy 1 Med , 1 monster, SD on rings and jewelry and for mondus magica regen ?

    With all the extra crit chance from mothers sorrow, it will be best to run with the shadow stone to increase the damage on all them crits.
    Other mundus will be good in different context, but not for damage in that setup.

    Nope, crits deal the same dmg with Apprentice mundus with higher non-crit dmg.

    Yea now it does.... this was pre the ninja changes they did for live
  • Texecutioner187
    Texecutioner187
    ✭✭✭
    So the comparison still leaves Spinners ahead of the pack with Necro at the tail end while Julianos dropped a little?
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah. The difference between 3.1.4 and Live has no effect on the Necro or Spinner sets themselves, while Julianos lost about 2.1% Crit chance compared to 3.1.4. The hit to Precise and Thief (which were both used in my build) hurt all three of the sets equally, so doesn't really factor in here.

    Keep in mind, regarding Spinner's, that while it, like the Lover stone, looks vastly superior on paper, there is a mathematical discrepancy somewhere that I have yet to track down that Gillaimtherogue pointed out to me. In his in-game testing, he was parsing a little lower with Spinner/Mother than Julianos/Mother, so take the build editor math with a grain of salt. In-game testing is always going to give the most accurate results. Also, remember that penetration is more valuable the less of it you already have.
    Edited by dpencil1 on August 15, 2017 7:28PM
  • Megabear
    Megabear
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    How is Sorrow now in comparison?
    Guide to making $$$ in Tamriel: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/370618/guide-to-making-gold-in-eso/p1?new=1
    Cost analysis for potential ESO players: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/367919/cost-analysis-for-brand-new-potential-pc-eso-players#latest
    Warden Bow Healer/DPS Hybrid Build: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/warden-bow-healerdps-hybrid/
    Warden "The Warladin" Healer/Tank Hybrid Build: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/warden-the-warladin-healertank-hybrid-build/
    Warden Stamina DPS Build: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/warden-dps-build/
    Server - PC/NA
    Vhevet - (S) Night Blade/Female/Orsimer
    Ecaer - (M) Templar/Female/Breton
    Captain Beaster Bunny - (S) Warden/Male/Red Guard
    Ezaera - (M) Sorcerer/Female/Altmer
    Ecaeri - (M) Warden/Female/Argonian
    Dun-and-Dunmer - (M) Dragon Knight/Male/Dunmer
    What Can Go Wong - (S) Night Blade/Male/Bosmer
    Izaer - (M) Templar/Male/Breton
  • Texecutioner187
    Texecutioner187
    ✭✭✭
    Megabear wrote: »
    How is Sorrow now in comparison?

    Would really like to know this also
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok, working on a new thread with the topic of comparing Mother's Sorrow's dps contribution in pre-HotR, 3.1.4, and HotR LIVE. I'll probably post it some time late tonight or tomorrow, and will link it here.
  • Texecutioner187
    Texecutioner187
    ✭✭✭
    dpencil1 wrote: »
    Ok, working on a new thread with the topic of comparing Mother's Sorrow's dps contribution in pre-HotR, 3.1.4, and HotR LIVE. I'll probably post it some time late tonight or tomorrow, and will link it here.

    Awesome! Is there going to be a point where you re-do all of your calculations for all of the sets for HotR? Or do we need to wait for it to come to console to do that? I can try to help provide information for the sets from PC if that will help you?
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    It will be easy once the Build Editor is updated with all the LIVE set bonuses, which we'll just have to wait on @Reorx_Holybeard for. I will redo the calculations then, but people can also go on there and make their own builds and plug in different set combinations. I'd also like to wait a little while to see if ZOS reacts to any of our feedback and reverts the Shadow/Thief/Precise nerf.
    Edited by dpencil1 on August 15, 2017 9:27PM
  • Reorx_Holybeard
    Reorx_Holybeard
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    dpencil1 wrote: »
    It will be easy once the Build Editor is updated with all the LIVE set bonuses, which we'll just have to wait on @Reorx_Holybeard for. I will redo the calculations then, but people can also go on there and make their own builds and plug in different set combinations. I'd also like to wait a little while to see if ZOS reacts to any of our feedback and reverts the Shadow/Thief/Precise nerf.

    Most things are updated in the builder except the item data (including updated traits) which takes a good week to mine and is in progress.
    Reorx Holybeard -- NA/PC
    Founder/Admin of www.uesp.net -- UESP ESO Guilds
    Creator of the "Best" ESO Build Editor
    I'm on a quest to build the world's toughest USB drive!
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Reorx_Holybeard
    Yup, the mundus update made the mundus comparison work I did earlier today much easier. Thanks for getting those changes up so fast!

    Much <3 to you, sir.
  • catch22atplay
    catch22atplay
    ✭✭
    The math not reflecting actual results may be a product of the math or the users perception of it. Using the ESUUSP.net's ESO Editor under "Attacker Spell Mitigation" you see it shows the following formula;

    "AttackSpellMitigation = (((Target.SpellResist + Target.SpellDebuff)*(1 - Skill2.SpellPenetration) -
    SpellPenetration)*(-1/(Target.EffectiveLevel * 1000)) + 1)*(1 - Target.DefenseBonus)"

    To help me understand it better i changed it to as follows;

    AttackSpellMitigation=1-((TargetSpellResist + TargetSpellDebuff)*(1-SkillSpellPenetration%)-
    (SpellPenetration))*(1/(TargetEffectiveLevel *1000))*(1-TargetDefenseBonus%)

    where TargetSpellResisstance=18,200
    where TargetSpellDebuff=Major Breach -5280 for example
    where SkillSpellPenetration%=destruction staff's passive ignores resistance by 10% passive
    where SpellPenetration= sorc passive 4884 + Spinners 5pc of 3,850 + Sharpen's -2752 for example
    where Target.EffectiveLevel=50 for pve and 66 for pvp (make sure the correct one is used, typically 50)
    where TargetDefenseBonus= takes x% less damage due to a buff for that target

    Note that if you have 0 penetration and no debuffs and weren't using a destructive staff abilty you'd do as follows;

    1-((18,200+0)*(1-0%)-(0))*(1/(50*1000))*(1-0%)=63.6% damage done

    now add 5000 to this

    1-((18,200+0)*(1-0%)-(5000))*(1/(50*1000))*(1-0%)=73.6% damage done

    add another 5000

    1-((18,200+0)*(1-0%)-(5000+5000))*(1/(50*1000))*(1-0%)=83.6% damage done

    and another 5000

    1-((18,200+0)*(1-0%)-(5000+5000+5000))*(1/(50*1000))*(1-0%)=93.6% damage done

    I mean technically 63.6% to 73.6% is an increase of 15.72% damage
    and 73.6% to 83.6% is an increase of 13.59% damage
    and 83.6% to 93.6% is an increase of 11.96% damage

    This however is not a good way to look at it at all. If you added them together you get 15.72+13.59+11.96=41.27%

    However if you check the increase of 63.6% to 93.6% you get 93.6/63.6=1.4717 or 47.17%. Note that this is also 15.72%*3=47.16%. Off by 0.01% as i only went to 2 decimal places. So we see there's a correct way to look at this and an incorrect way.

    Now having said all that it's easier just to look at what % of damage you do. Increasing pen by 500 increases damage by 1%. ie 78% to 79%. increasing by 5000 would be 10% ie 79% to 89%. It's just easier to look at it this way imo.


    Now the next thing is using destruction staff abilities and their light and heavy attacks. The passive ignores 10% resistance. If you shoot for 100% damage of all your abilities then you just went over the pen cap of destruction abilities and LAs and HAs. This is the part that gets wasted and can make other sets look better if those other sets didn't exceed this destruction pen cap. So this should always be in mind when testing. It's best to test without exceeding that pen cap for those abilities. Go for the destruction staff cap and not the other ability's cap.
    Edited by catch22atplay on August 16, 2017 1:28AM
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