Magicka DPS Set Bonus Comparison - MATH (pre-HotR)

Dymence

dpencil1 wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I see a lot of advocating to revert the nerf to necropotence in your post.

However, it was likely nerfed purely with PVP in mind. In that case, restoring the set wouldn't be an option in the devs' minds.

@Dymence
I certainly appreciate that the set performs differently in PvE vs PvP. Comparing Julainos/Spinners to Julianos/Necro (yes I know this combo is not ideal for PvP because it lacks any sustain, just bear with me for the sake of argument), the difference in magicka is 4330. This amounts to a 2300 tooltip increase on Ward. This would be amplified 33% to 3059 if using Hardened Ward. Harness magicka's tooltip increases 2177.

Let's look at % amps applied to these values. Don't get concerned over the actual starting values, they are very inflated.
We are just interested in the comparison.
Julianos/Spinners: 33953 x 1.27 = 43120
43120 x 0.531 = 22896 x 1.33 = 30451
43120 x 0.502 = 21646
30451 + 21646 = 52097
52097 / 2 = 26048

Julianos/Necro: 38284 x 1.27 = 48620
48620 x 0.531 = 25817 x 1.33 = 34336
48620 x 0.502 = 24407
34336 + 24407 = 58743
58743 / 2 = 29371

29371 - 26048 = 3323 bigger shield stack with Necro, giving up 3450 Pen.

So, with nerfed Necro, we can see the difference in shield stack size is very small.

Let's do that comparison again with non-nerfed Necro:
Julianos/Spinners: 33953 x 1.27 = 43120
43120 x 0.531 = 22896 x 1.33 = 30451
43120 x 0.502 = 21646
30451 + 21646 = 52097
52097 / 2 = 26048

Julianos/Necro (not nerfed): 38284 + 850 = 39134 x 1.27 = 49700
49700 x 0.531 = 26390 x 1.33 = 35098
49700 x 0.502 = 24949
35098 + 24949 = 60047
60047 / 2 = 30023

30023 - 26048 = 3975 bigger shield stack with Necro (not nerfed), still giving up 3450 Pen.

3975 - 3323 = 652 more damage absorbed in PvP with Necro (not nerfed) than with Necro (nerfed)

CONCLUSION:
The nerf to Necro has a negligible effect on shield size while having a dramatic effect on PvE dps.

I'm personally not in favor of the necro nerf either, but it is what it is. Even with the math behind it being shown here, I don't think ZOS is going to revert their stance on it. They rarely do when it comes to nerfs.

On the note of the main post, while I appreciate all the math behind the different set combinations, I don't see a lot of use for it besides it being interesting. Allow me to clarify.

It mainly comes down to some of the sets that were used for comparison. End game PVE assumes group support and CP distribution in such a manner that the target is being fully penetrated. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone running spinners in raids and I don't think I will any time soon. While noone doubts the strength of penetration, there is much more strength behind having a proper damage set and the right support to make up for that penetration.

The next one up is Netch's Touch. This set is far too niche to be displayed as strong as it is. You have to build for full lightning, which just isn't really feasible. There are several skills in play which simply don't benefit from the set at all. Building yourself fully for lightning with Netch's Touch will end up in gimped damage versus running a normal DPS build with a set that provides power to everything.

Last but not least, Burning Spellweave. This set fell out of taste for most if not all setups since it got hit by nerfs. DKs have Silks of the Sun instead, magicka templars need to run Moondancer to have any form of feasible sustain, sorcs are running Necropotence (and depending on raid, are using lightning blockade anyways for off-balance), and nightblades are running Scathing. While interesting to see where it stands in terms of power, the power is only applicable on a setup that allows you to exploit its max potential, which isn't really being used in raids anymore.

That just leaves Julianos, Necropotence and Mother's Sorrow which only got interesting after the buffs on the PTS.

I hope you get my point.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

7th Place - MOTHER'S SORROW
- Although buffed significantly in HotR to 21% Crit

Mother’s Sorrow: Increased the Spell Critical Strike rating granted by this Item Set to 2470 from 1643.

2470/219.1= 11.27% crit, not 21. You can't add the 2-4 bonuses because julinanos has the second crit bonuses. So it only adds 11.27% crit chance.

dpencil1

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
Add up all the crit bonuses on the set together. Objectively, it adds 21% over nothing.

SodanTok

dpencil1 wrote: »

@SodanTok
Can you explain what you mean? I'd be happy to dialogue with you about it, but your post was rather cryptic and lacked any specifics.
.

Does not your thread proves necro was and without nerf would be pretty on par with other sets? It is a set that gives you resources. Resources are the least impactful commodity when it comes to damage by design, because they also extend your pool and hugely impact shields and pets. It is pretty obvious the set had this crazy high value because back then pets were a burden.

dpencil1

@Dymence
Yeah, I hear you. I did try to specify that Spinner's is this good IF you're not already hitting Pen cap, and Netch needs to be 100% lightning for full effect. Heavy attack pet sorcs can run 100% lightning, so it's doable, but I also mentioned that falling below 75% total parse damage from lightning would make the set weaker than Julianos. Same thing with BSW, it depends on uptime. Below 57% is worse than Julianos, so you have to be specced into flame. These were all called out in the OP.

dpencil1

@SodanTok
Thanks for clarifying. As I said in the OP, how someone decides the value of max magicka over other stat boosts is largely subjective. If you know of a way to quantify it objectively I would honestly love to see that because I have been wracking my brain.

I showed earlier that the amount of extra shields compared to another set with 2 max magicka and 1 spell damage bonus is about 3300 in PvP. 3900 witout a nerf. I'm not sure how you would quantify how much lower on the Effective Spell Damage ranking Necro should be because of this. Same thing with pet damage or having more resources. And should we put points back on for it scaling badly with weapon attacks and forcing you to have a living pet?

If shield size is the problem they should address that directly with diminishing returns rather than hurting PvE dps.

Nolic1

Cool I like the math but still not accurate in detail because with all the other variables in the game from race weapon and mundus stones to many others this is a nice start but not perfect. If the calculator did have every variable option it would be better at getting a closer idea what would be best. Because it does not show the correct or accurate values some one could get more out of julionos and necro then julionos and spinners with the right set up of everything your not accounting for.

Like I said though nice math it looks good on paper but until you try every possible variation of gear and trait and cp or just everything the none of it is perfect but a really good place to start for sure. Thanks for the hard work on this and sorry if I came off as rude.

dpencil1

LOL. I wonder how many more replies I'm going to get like this. Again...the purpose was to isolate the specific variables that the set bonuses effect. I know and stated in the OP that there are more factors than these that will play into the effectiveness of these sets. If I tried to do every combination including traits, mundus, race, skills....it would be an absolutely impossible task. This is a guide to help people along in understanding the math behind the sets themselves. That's it. Use your own brain to figure out the nuances of your own build.

Eventually the UESP Build Editor will be updated with HotR set bonuses, at which point we can go in and make actual complete builds, swapping out gear sets to see the differences on our own setups. I wanted to get this info out now, while it is still on the PTS specifically to address the Necro nerf as well as get a sense of how the sets stack up against each other in isolation.

Use it for what it is. I am not telling everyone to go run Spinner/Netch in Trials. If that's what you thought, then you didn't read the OP carefully enough.

Taleof2Cities

Nolic1 wrote: »

Like I said though nice math it looks good on paper but until you try every possible variation of gear and trait and cp or just everything the none of it is perfect but a really good place to start for sure.

Having a "calculator" that factors in set armor, trait, CP, attributes, mundus, and skill buffs would be an enormous undertaking, @Nolic1. I'm sure you can appreciate that.

Even if something like that existed, it still wouldn't factor in the player's individual playstyle and DPS rotation.

In other words, don't hold @dpencil1's awesome work hostage here ... it's very good stuff.

None of the "on paper" mathematics substitutes for you working on your build on PTS or Live.

dpencil1

@Taleof2Cities
Thanks for that. The UESP Build Editor basically is exactly such a calculator. If you haven't been there to check it out, you should definitely go look. I posted the link further up a bit. When it gets updated to HotR stats it will be one of the best ways to compare strengths between build setups, as it has been for over a year.

Dymence

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Dymence
Yeah, I hear you. I did try to specify that Spinner's is this good IF you're not already hitting Pen cap, and Netch needs to be 100% lightning for full effect. Heavy attack pet sorcs can run 100% lightning, so it's doable, but I also mentioned that falling below 75% total parse damage from lightning would make the set weaker than Julianos. Same thing with BSW, it depends on uptime. Below 57% is worse than Julianos, so you have to be specced into flame. These were all called out in the OP.

Yeah I did read the OP and saw you mention the specific requirements for them to shine, but it makes it hard to make out what is actually mathematically the best setup when there are so many sets that effectively 'dilute' the ranking of sets from best to worst.

It's still pretty interesting information, and I applaud you for taking the effort. I just wanted to let you know my thoughts on the matter

EDIT: One more thing about the Netch's Touch; you mentioned pet sorcs can run 100% lightning, but that isn't exactly true. Even though the pets pulse deals shock damage, Netch's Touch buffs lightning abilities by spell damage so the pet is entirely unaffected by the set. That sets you on 2 skills minimum (pet and curse) that don't benefit from the set already.

dpencil1

@Dymence
Sure, no sweat. Your comments are appreciated. Honestly, the fact that slight nuances to builds can alter the ranking is a testament to how well most of the sets are balanced against each other. At first, I made a chart with the full values, not the difference from the baseline and it was pretty funny how negligable the differences looked in that setting.

Dymence

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Dymence
Sure, no sweat. Your comments are appreciated. Honestly, the fact that slight nuances to builds can alter the ranking is a testament to how well most of the sets are balanced against each other. At first, I made a chart with the full values, not the difference from the baseline and it was pretty funny how negligable the differences looked in that setting.

The differences are actually indeed very negligable, more so than a lot of people think. I've done dummy tests with the exact same rotation using Julianos, Necropotence, even Scathing Mage and it all ends up being like 500 dps in range of eachother, and that's with sitting in the 40k's. The difference would be even less on lower DPS.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
Add up all the crit bonuses on the set together. Objectively, it adds 21% over nothing.

I see, of course that is right but it is also missleading the way you phraze it. People are going to do what I did and think you just meant the five piece, because that is the only difference to most people. Again. You are technically correct but you could phrase that correctness in a more clear manner.

catch22atplay

I have to agree with Nolic here.

And FYI Mettle is 2% for each type of armor you wear. I use 5 lt, 1med, 1hvy for +6% total

Magicka is being extremely under valued. A High Elf Sorc would have the following Magicka % increase;

Racial +10% High Elf

Sorc skills slotted
Bound Aegis +8%

Mage Guild skills slotted
Inner Light +5%

Mage Guild passive
Magicka Controller +2% for each mage guild ability slotted. I use 1 only.

Undaunted passive
Mettle +6% i use 1 of each type of armor.

Total Magicka % increase = 31%

Taking off 1 light piece with Divines (using thief mundus) and which only has a 5 pc power bonus and has 351 magicka enchant i loose 551 magicka

551/351=1.5698 so magicka was increased by 56.98%.

You also get Attribute increases by % based on how many points put into each color and maxxing at 100 per color. This is factored in before the ones already mentioned. Although i didn't know the total % increase was as high as i've shown. BTW for 100 points spent in a color it's 100^0.56=13.1826%. Again that's prior to the ones already listed.

An old formula i found is Stat Pool=((Base+AP+Gear)*%CP)+Food+Mundus(Divines))*Skills

For me this should be 113.1826*1.31=148.27%

Not sure if the Skills part is additive or multiplicative. But either way it still falls short.

Ya math a bit off there. So that old formula appears to be incorrect or i'm missing something. Maybe it's now 100^0.65 . This puts us at 157.14% when i'm looking for 156.98% or the formula is now completely different. /shrug

Sadly the 4000 magicka increase set bonus only multiplies by your skills and passives. And this is 31% for me.

Old Necro 5pc bonus 4000*1.31=5240
New Necro 5pc bonus 3150*1.31=4,126.5
So i'm looking at a loss of 1,113.5 magicka. Just a hair over 100 spell power for comparison or 106 is you want to be precise.

Anyways again you are underrating magicka big time. I suggest you redo your hard work.

Dymence

catch22atplay wrote: »

I have to agree with Nolic here.

And FYI Mettle is 2% for each type of armor you wear. I use 5 lt, 1med, 1hvy for +6% total

Magicka is being extremely under valued. A High Elf Sorc would have the following Magicka % increase;

Racial +10% High Elf

Sorc skills slotted
Bound Aegis +8%

Mage Guild skills slotted
Inner Light +5%

Mage Guild passive
Magicka Controller +2% for each mage guild ability slotted. I use 1 only.

Undaunted passive
Mettle +6% i use 1 of each type of armor.

Total Magicka % increase = 31%

Taking off 1 light piece with Divines (using thief mundus) and which only has a 5 pc power bonus and has 351 magicka enchant i loose 551 magicka

551/351=1.5698 so magicka was increased by 56.98%.

You also get Attribute increases by % based on how many points put into each color and maxxing at 100 per color. This is factored in before the ones already mentioned. Although i didn't know the total % increase was as high as i've shown.

Anyways again you are underrating magicka big time. I suggest you redo your hard work.

Magsorcs don't run both bound aegis and inner light. It's one or the other.

Vaoh

Very nice post! TY for this

Savos_Saren

Dymence wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Dymence
Yeah, I hear you. I did try to specify that Spinner's is this good IF you're not already hitting Pen cap, and Netch needs to be 100% lightning for full effect. Heavy attack pet sorcs can run 100% lightning, so it's doable, but I also mentioned that falling below 75% total parse damage from lightning would make the set weaker than Julianos. Same thing with BSW, it depends on uptime. Below 57% is worse than Julianos, so you have to be specced into flame. These were all called out in the OP.

Yeah I did read the OP and saw you mention the specific requirements for them to shine, but it makes it hard to make out what is actually mathematically the best setup when there are so many sets that effectively 'dilute' the ranking of sets from best to worst.

It's still pretty interesting information, and I applaud you for taking the effort. I just wanted to let you know my thoughts on the matter

EDIT: One more thing about the Netch's Touch; you mentioned pet sorcs can run 100% lightning, but that isn't exactly true. Even though the pets pulse deals shock damage, Netch's Touch buffs lightning abilities by spell damage so the pet is entirely unaffected by the set. That sets you on 2 skills minimum (pet and curse) that don't benefit from the set already.

@Dymence

I thought ZoS said that pets will now gain the buffs of a player?

Savos_Saren

Damn. Silks of the Sun isn't even a runner-up?

Dymence

jaburns wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Dymence
Yeah, I hear you. I did try to specify that Spinner's is this good IF you're not already hitting Pen cap, and Netch needs to be 100% lightning for full effect. Heavy attack pet sorcs can run 100% lightning, so it's doable, but I also mentioned that falling below 75% total parse damage from lightning would make the set weaker than Julianos. Same thing with BSW, it depends on uptime. Below 57% is worse than Julianos, so you have to be specced into flame. These were all called out in the OP.

Yeah I did read the OP and saw you mention the specific requirements for them to shine, but it makes it hard to make out what is actually mathematically the best setup when there are so many sets that effectively 'dilute' the ranking of sets from best to worst.

It's still pretty interesting information, and I applaud you for taking the effort. I just wanted to let you know my thoughts on the matter

EDIT: One more thing about the Netch's Touch; you mentioned pet sorcs can run 100% lightning, but that isn't exactly true. Even though the pets pulse deals shock damage, Netch's Touch buffs lightning abilities by spell damage so the pet is entirely unaffected by the set. That sets you on 2 skills minimum (pet and curse) that don't benefit from the set already.

@Dymence

I thought ZoS said that pets will now gain the buffs of a player?

They won't. Only pets summoned by monster sets, not pets summoned by class skill line abilities.

catch22atplay

Dymence wrote: »

Magsorcs don't run both bound aegis and inner light. It's one or the other.

Some do and one that does is me. That doesn't mean it's the most optimal way to do things. But clearly some do.

buttaface

dpencil1 wrote: »

LOL. I wonder how many more replies I'm going to get like this.

You titled your thread way too generally, and so it is inaccurate, that's why, or rather maybe netch + spinner's is ideal for a magicka self-healer (or any other thing than a pure glass cannon trial dps).

I find the base OP posts overlong, overgeneralized and not really very useful.

You are very transparently trying to overgeneralize into "don't nerf necro" with a humongous wall of text generalization... Maybe spinner's and netch will give the best pet damage and largest shields? LOL indeed.

dpencil1

@catch22atplay
You are right that there are a number of % amplifiers to max magicka and that this will help boost Necro a little bit, but they also benefit other sets that have magicka bonuses.

Let's take Julianos/Spinner vs Julianos/Necro again. Starting from our baseline, we get 33953 and 38284 magicka.
33953 x 1.31 = 44478
38284 x 1.31 = 50152

38284 - 33953 = 4331
50152 - 44478 = 5674

5674 - 4331 = 1343

So gaining 31% more max magicka only results in 1343 more magicka on Julianos/Necro over Julianos/Spinner.

At the same time, we could equally apply Major Sorcery for an extra 20% spell damage. Starting again from our baseline, Julianos/Spinner's would have 2348 SD, while Julianos/Necro would have 2299 SD.

2348 x 1.2 = 2817
2299 x 1.2 = 2758

2817 - 2758 = 58 more SD from Julianos/Spinner's

58 x 10.5 = 609 equivalent magicka damage

1343 - 609 = 734 extra magicka damage from 31% stat amps.

734 ÷ 10.5 = 70 extra effective spell damage from Julianos/Necro

So would you rather 70 more effective spell damage or 3450 penetration? And I didn't even use Minor Sorcery.

The point is, the difference is not as big as you might think.

Dymence

catch22atplay wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Magsorcs don't run both bound aegis and inner light. It's one or the other.

Some do and one that does is me. That doesn't mean it's the most optimal way to do things. But clearly some do.

I don't quite understand. You complained about something being undervalued in a min/max calculation while at the same time running something that isn't the most optimal?

Nolic1

@dpencil1 So as I was saying the math is sound to my findings on test but I was just pointing out that with out every race, mundus, CP, armor set and trait allocation the chart only shows so many ideas but it is a good start to what some might find more interesting is how well other combos with each class race and so on will match out.

P.S. I guess I should of been clear above sorry I was not.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Like I said though nice math it looks good on paper but until you try every possible variation of gear and trait and cp or just everything the none of it is perfect but a really good place to start for sure.

Having a "calculator" that factors in set armor, trait, CP, attributes, mundus, and skill buffs would be an enormous undertaking, @Nolic1. I'm sure you can appreciate that.

Even if something like that existed, it still wouldn't factor in the player's individual playstyle and DPS rotation.

In other words, don't hold @dpencil1's awesome work hostage here ... it's very good stuff.

None of the "on paper" mathematics substitutes for you working on your build on PTS or Live.

I agree with the highlighted. Also the calculator does factor in many things but its not every set or mundus trait race and class combo is all I was mean along with what I agree.

dpencil1

@buttaface
I edited the title and first paragraph based on your criticism. I'm sorry you find it over-generalized and unhelpful. I am not a math wizard like Asayre. I bit off as much as I felt like I could reasonably handle in simply examining the parameters directly related to set bonuses. Although I began this endeavour because I personally wanted to see how Necro was effected by the nerf, I was willing to go where the evidence led. I was actually quite surprised at how well Spinner's did and how weak Mother's Sorrow is in a low stat scenario while being practically BiS in a high stat scenario. It was a learning experience for me too, which I wanted to share with the community.

The only reason I am beating the "revert the Necro nerf " drum is because I honestly believe the nerf is not warranted. But I have already granted that other factors such as shield strength, pet damage, and extra resources for casting can make up for some of the deficit. I do not know how to quantify exactly how much those other factors are worth, so it ends up being somewhat subjective at this point.

Would Spinner's/Netch give you the biggest Scamp Pulse tooltip? Of course not. But would it boost non-pet skills enough to make up the difference and surpass it? Or would it lead sorcs away from relying on pets as much? I don't think the answer is quite as obvious.

As for being overlong, I'm not gonna apologize for that. I know I am often long-winded, but I think the content of what I say is worth making the effort to fully explain it. Either you give an unsupported opinion or you back it up with data. I prefer the latter, which often means longer posts.

dpencil1

@jaburns
Hey, sorry. Sorc bias at work. I simply didn't think of Silks when I was putting my calculations together. Basically you get 1096 Magicka and 529 SD if you're specced 100% into Fire damage.

Against our baseline we would get:
31096 Magicka, 2529 SD, 40% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg

31096 ÷ 10.5 = 2961 + 2529 = 5490
0.4 x 0.5 = 0.2 + 1 = 1.2
5490 × 1.2 = 6588 x 0.8 = 5270

5270 - 4662 (Comparison A baseline value) = 608 over base

Compare that to BSW 60% uptime at 578 and Julianos with 2% magicka added for completing a 5-1-1 at 652. If you go to the Comparison A chart in the OP you can see where Silks would fit there.

dpencil1

While I'm at it, might as well actually do Scathing too. I don't know the most common uptime so someone can correct me if you have a lot of experience parsing with it. I know that below 60% it would have a lower 5-piece bonus than Julianos and that the 2-4 piece bonuses are identical, so I'm going to go with 80% uptime and see what we get. I will use Comparison D for this one, since we really need the extra Crit chance to reasonably get to 80% uptime.

516 x 0.8 = 412

Against our baseline we would get:
31096 Magicka, 2412 SD, 69.7% Crit, 80% Pen, 50% Crit Dmg

31096 ÷ 10.5 = 2961 + 2412 = 5373
0.697 x 0.5 = 0.3485 + 1 = 1.3485
5373 × 1.3485 = 7245 x 0.8 = 5796

5796 - 5051 (Comparison D baseline value) = 745 over base

Compare that to Julianos with 2% magicka for completing the 5-1-1 at 688 and 100% Lightning damage Netch's Touch at 765. A very strong showing indeed, assuming you could consistently land 80% uptime.

MLGProPlayer

We're going to have 660 CP this patch. Doesn't it make more sense to just put a few points into spell erosion and forgo Spinner's?

dpencil1

@MLGProPlayer
It depends how much penetration you aleady have on yourself and in your group, and how far up the diminishing returns ladder you are for Spell Erosion as well as the other stars. Like, if you could pull most of your points out of Erosion to put them in other stars, that might work out better. But if you are already going to hit diminishing returns walls on those other stars and want to keep points in Erosion, and won't end up needing all 3450 penetration in your group, then absolutely ditch it for something else.