The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 22:
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 22, 4:00AM EDT (08:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 22, 4:00AM EDT (08:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 24, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 10.0.1 is available.
PTS Patch Notes v3.1.3
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ComboBreaker88✭✭✭✭✭Way to make reinforced sheild total f******* useless. Also why is blazing sheild still an ability if you keep making it more and more useless. Lol. I hope all of you at ZOS get fired and replaced with a competent staff.3 -
Rikkof✭✭✭dodge roll into cloack need to be nerfed, atm the nb are dodging way to much damage, they cloack , wait few seconds for cd's and come back bursting their target in 1 hit
this game style needs to be addressed, imho,. is not fair for any other classes to have to deal with this cheese tactic
dodge buff should only prevent ONE attac, and cloack cost should be like streak, more expensive the more/faster you are using it1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, if you think about it, there isn't really any more skill on using blood spawn, pirate skeleton, troll king or any other set really than skoria or selene's. You could argument that those have at leastsome sort of counter, you can play around downtimes or you can build into major defile, but similar case is about the other two. Selene's well, just dodgeable and skoria is limited by user's build and the amount of dots you can slot.
Its about implementing skill in the use of those sets. This is the biggest issue with procs, that they dont need skill to be used atm on live. That means delayed, visual effects and main defence of each armor type working as a counter. They hit hard, they should be hard to land.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »im just curious why valkyn is still an instant, unavoidable proc when all the others have been nerfed
Valkyn Skoria is not instant - it's delayed with a telegraphed rumble/noise as it gets ready to impact. One can easily ward up in response to the proc. If YOU have problems with Skoria, then that's YOUR problem. L2P and stop crying.
Nerfing something doesn't improve your gameplay - it just means you'll lose to something else.
You mean learn to play magicka since this proc removes counterplay from medium armor builds like so many other things in this game.
Why don't you just block it?
That would require him to be intelligent and commit to improving his skill at a game, rather than asking for a handout. Of course, folks like him will always lose to something - nerf one thing, lose to the next.. the cycle continues.
Why dont u just make it dodgeable so every type of armor can use its main defense and then just cc ur target when u proc the set so u can guarantee that it lands?
Cause that would require u to be intelligent and commit to improving ur skill at the game rather than asking for a handout. Of course folks like you will always abuse every bs mechanic, set, ability in the game. Abuse one skilless bs thing, gets nerfed, abuse the next....they cycle continues.
You see, the fact that I'm "abusing the next so-called bs mechanic" means that I'm adapting to change and not asking for handouts, unlike you. "Abusing" a mechanic, eh? I suppose I also "abuse" the following mechanics, according to your twisted logic:
- Using a lightning staff for its channeled heavy attack, which is dot damage.
- Using Vampire's Bane to apply its dot damage while I HA or channel another ability.
- Using Soul Assault for its channeled dot damage.
- Using Radiant Oppression for its channeled dot damage.
- Equipping a monster helm that rewards me for utilizing dot damage by providing some burst.
- Stacking multiple dots to maximize the usefulness of that monster helm.
- Utilizing multiple in-game mechanics in order create a unique playstyle that I enjoy.
- Attacking players that refuse to block or ward up against my abilities.
- Adjusting my build for an upcoming patch by focusing on recently improved things.
No, abusing a set doing free dmg with actually no player skill involved and then defending it and telling other players that need to L2P. The irony. But i didnt really expect you to understand. For you skilless and skill is somehow the same thing.
You see , the most suggested change to skoria wasnt to nerf the dmg or the proc chance or anything. It was just to make it dodgeable and implement a visual effect on people's feet like meteor. That forces the skoria users to use their brain and cc, root or whatever the target to make it land. And it also leaves room for counterplay for the defender. This is called skilled gameplay. Something you clearly are unfamiliar with.
And adapting ur build every patch doesnt make it less bs or abusive or skilless. Everyone and their mother "adapted" their builds by using selene and viper. It was also bs and skilless.
If that's the most suggested change, then it's no wonder ZoS doesn't listen to us very much. That would make it worse in every single way than Selene because Selenes will hit the target the user is attacking (Skoria is not as controllable), has a shorter proc delay, does more damage, does not require a specific build / works well with every class, and can be comboed with burst instant-damage skills rather than DoTs.
So ur issue is with selene. Iol. You literally said why selene is so broken. This dumb logic everyone follows is really hilarious. This is not broken cause the other thing is more broken. No wonder we always end up with broken stuff.
Nope. That's not my issue.
I am one of the few people who have said I don't mind facing an opponent who uses Selenes. It's strong, but I think seeing if not stacking with the instant procs Viper and REd mountain is worth at least trying first before nerfing it and other sets into uselessness.
If a set is balanced but ends up being "useless" and never used because there is another set that is broken and outperforms it, then so be it. The issue is with the broken set. Not with the one that is balanced.
This is the thing, skoria can't be used by everyone, nor on every scenario. So the question is not if the set overperforms, but if the classes that can make the best out of it are. So no, skoria doesn't really need a nerf. Could use a better visual cues yes, but I don't think it's particularly strong.
Bloodspawn gives u ult. You get a lot faster ult. But it doesnt fire ur ults for you and make them land. You still have to use them urself and use ur brain like cc people for example before meteor. Thats the difference. All 3 of those sets you mentioned are actually OP even after their nerfs. I never said they are ok. But at least they are not game breaking.
Skoria isnt limited by the number of dots you can slot. Dots are like the easier thing in the game to get. You can literally slot a dmg poison and it counts as 2 dots. The builds using that set do not really change their build or anything. Skoria or not they already have the dots and they are part of their rotation. mDK can have like 6-7 dots ticking at the same time and only 3 of those are abilities that u cast with the intention of actually doing dmg. The rest are just buffs you cast anw. And yes the question is if the set outperforms. If the question was whether the classes that make the best out of it outperform then every single set in the game that a mDK uses would be balanced cause mDK will never outperform due to their design and how it doesnt fit with the current PVP meta. What skoria needs is visuals cues like meteor and dodge as a counter. Whether you call that a nerf or not it doesnt matter.
There are way too many undodgeable things in PVP. You cant take medium armor's main defence away just like that. They are squishy, they dont have shields, blocking drains their stamina in a few seconds and they cant just outheal dmg. Dodge roll is literally their main defence and as much as i hate permarollers you cant just take their defence away.
I would say getting ult you can use in situations you want is far better than getting 'free' damage you have no control over.
Sure you dont have to change your build by much (tho I would say slotting poison instead of oblivion damage ench is already big build change), but you werent even able to do that this whole patch because double poisons did not work. And even working you have 10% chance to apply poison, that will tick 4/7 times over 3/6 seconds. Thats 11 tick together over 6seconds and then at least another 4sec of downtime before you can even proc poison again.
That means you have 60% chance to proc skoria once a 10sec on one target...
I would partly agree with dodge, because it is true dodge roll is main defense and as such should be actually used to defending yourself. But dodge roll is very problematic currently because there only 2 states. Either you deal full damage to dodge roll build or you deal none. What it needs is another state between these two (imo every undodgeable skill needs it) like main skoria damage is dodgeable but when you dodge during the meteor its AoE damage will damage you.
It can be better in some situations to have an ult rdy instead of free dmg. Assuming u are a good player and u know how to use ur ults. For a bad player free dmg will always be better. Which is literally what ive been saying over and over and over again and here we go again with another reply "but bloodspawn can be equally good" as if i ever said bloodspawn isnt good.
You can use two weapons so you can still use oblivion enchant. And even without poisons mDK and templars have more than enough dots. There is no need to bring numbers into this. Its common knowledge that DKs and templars can proc it prety much on cooldown. But thats not even the issue. The issue is with its counters.
I agree dodge is a problematic and toxic mechanic. But implementing undodgeable abilities, sets etc is even worse. Right now there are so many undodgeable things that make actual medium armor builds the easiest to kill cause they simply have no counters. You can just abuse them and skoria is one way to do it.
One click does not change anything. Both are free damage. Bad player will ult at good time more often or at least as often as random proc.
The thing with numbers is that they dont lie, contrary to your feelings from anecdotal experiences.
Common knowledge != mutually shared bias for edge scenarios.
"having two weapons" is hardly relevant argument given most fights happen on one bar and swapping every 4sec to proc oblivion is not in any form viable
Dodge roll build are weak but not dead. Skoria not hitting during dodge roll is dead set. Same way red mountain is dead set after this patch. Same way any delayed proc set is dead set in PVP. Same way any dodgeable ulti is nearly dead ulti. Dodge roll is simply the cheapest and most effective defense mechanic that is available to everyone. The problem of medium armor is that it is the only one available to them. That is the sickness that needs to be treated.
//edit:
for the record, I suggested buffnerf/adjustment for skoria that would impact more those dk and templar with many dots without nearly touching those with less so the set remains competitive and not just set only dk and templar use -> increase cd and proc chance in a way that would keep proc rate same on ~4 dot builds. So for people running more of them and procing it close to on CD, the nerf would be far more impactful than for people that proc it once in 10sec.
Would not change the way the set works so nothing for antiproc set circlej**kEdited by SodanTok on August 2, 2017 10:59PM1 -
waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭Sparing TFS while nerfing Spriggan's seems like a balanced choice.
1. They're clearly trying to cut down on gankers with the reduction to Spriggan's but it's not as if gankers can just switch to TFS to make up for it. Even though TFS provides more max penetration on live than Spriggans, the two sets function in radically different ways. TFS requires activation and careful uptime to meet or exceed Spriggan's penetration values, whereas Spriggan's provides a flat, constant bonus. Even after you've worked to get TFS, you have to work to keep the bonus up.
2. If Spriggan's really is the "poor man's TFS" then it only makes sense for the values to be decreased, reflecting the two set's progression in PvE utility: start with Spriggan's as you accumulate TFS pieces.
3. I would challenge the characterization of Spriggan's as a more easily accessible "poor man's TFS" though. Spriggan's is not cheap with its utility in PvP, and zone farming is by no means more fun/less boring than farming SO.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
Sparing TFS while nerfing Spriggan's seems like a balanced choice.
3. I would challenge the characterization of Spriggan's as a more easily accessible "poor man's TFS" though. Spriggan's is not cheap with its utility in PvP, and zone farming is by no means more fun/less boring than farming SO.
Disagree because anyone can buy Spriggans off a guild trader, and also because I have acquired / used both.
It took me less than a day to get a full set of Spriggans (divines / purple jewelry).
It took me months to get a full set of TFS.Edited by overclocker303b14_ESO on August 2, 2017 11:53PM0 -
Peekachu99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭hmmm well this is all good and stuff, but where are the class balance changes? I was expecting at least some tweaking
btw BIG LOVE on the willows changes, finally
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I mean, this was the biggest news of the incremental--of the patch--for me. Willow's Path has been broken for years. Can't believe my eyes!0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, if you think about it, there isn't really any more skill on using blood spawn, pirate skeleton, troll king or any other set really than skoria or selene's. You could argument that those have at leastsome sort of counter, you can play around downtimes or you can build into major defile, but similar case is about the other two. Selene's well, just dodgeable and skoria is limited by user's build and the amount of dots you can slot.
Its about implementing skill in the use of those sets. This is the biggest issue with procs, that they dont need skill to be used atm on live. That means delayed, visual effects and main defence of each armor type working as a counter. They hit hard, they should be hard to land.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »im just curious why valkyn is still an instant, unavoidable proc when all the others have been nerfed
Valkyn Skoria is not instant - it's delayed with a telegraphed rumble/noise as it gets ready to impact. One can easily ward up in response to the proc. If YOU have problems with Skoria, then that's YOUR problem. L2P and stop crying.
Nerfing something doesn't improve your gameplay - it just means you'll lose to something else.
You mean learn to play magicka since this proc removes counterplay from medium armor builds like so many other things in this game.
Why don't you just block it?
That would require him to be intelligent and commit to improving his skill at a game, rather than asking for a handout. Of course, folks like him will always lose to something - nerf one thing, lose to the next.. the cycle continues.
Why dont u just make it dodgeable so every type of armor can use its main defense and then just cc ur target when u proc the set so u can guarantee that it lands?
Cause that would require u to be intelligent and commit to improving ur skill at the game rather than asking for a handout. Of course folks like you will always abuse every bs mechanic, set, ability in the game. Abuse one skilless bs thing, gets nerfed, abuse the next....they cycle continues.
You see, the fact that I'm "abusing the next so-called bs mechanic" means that I'm adapting to change and not asking for handouts, unlike you. "Abusing" a mechanic, eh? I suppose I also "abuse" the following mechanics, according to your twisted logic:
- Using a lightning staff for its channeled heavy attack, which is dot damage.
- Using Vampire's Bane to apply its dot damage while I HA or channel another ability.
- Using Soul Assault for its channeled dot damage.
- Using Radiant Oppression for its channeled dot damage.
- Equipping a monster helm that rewards me for utilizing dot damage by providing some burst.
- Stacking multiple dots to maximize the usefulness of that monster helm.
- Utilizing multiple in-game mechanics in order create a unique playstyle that I enjoy.
- Attacking players that refuse to block or ward up against my abilities.
- Adjusting my build for an upcoming patch by focusing on recently improved things.
No, abusing a set doing free dmg with actually no player skill involved and then defending it and telling other players that need to L2P. The irony. But i didnt really expect you to understand. For you skilless and skill is somehow the same thing.
You see , the most suggested change to skoria wasnt to nerf the dmg or the proc chance or anything. It was just to make it dodgeable and implement a visual effect on people's feet like meteor. That forces the skoria users to use their brain and cc, root or whatever the target to make it land. And it also leaves room for counterplay for the defender. This is called skilled gameplay. Something you clearly are unfamiliar with.
And adapting ur build every patch doesnt make it less bs or abusive or skilless. Everyone and their mother "adapted" their builds by using selene and viper. It was also bs and skilless.
If that's the most suggested change, then it's no wonder ZoS doesn't listen to us very much. That would make it worse in every single way than Selene because Selenes will hit the target the user is attacking (Skoria is not as controllable), has a shorter proc delay, does more damage, does not require a specific build / works well with every class, and can be comboed with burst instant-damage skills rather than DoTs.
So ur issue is with selene. Iol. You literally said why selene is so broken. This dumb logic everyone follows is really hilarious. This is not broken cause the other thing is more broken. No wonder we always end up with broken stuff.
Nope. That's not my issue.
I am one of the few people who have said I don't mind facing an opponent who uses Selenes. It's strong, but I think seeing if not stacking with the instant procs Viper and REd mountain is worth at least trying first before nerfing it and other sets into uselessness.
If a set is balanced but ends up being "useless" and never used because there is another set that is broken and outperforms it, then so be it. The issue is with the broken set. Not with the one that is balanced.
This is the thing, skoria can't be used by everyone, nor on every scenario. So the question is not if the set overperforms, but if the classes that can make the best out of it are. So no, skoria doesn't really need a nerf. Could use a better visual cues yes, but I don't think it's particularly strong.
Bloodspawn gives u ult. You get a lot faster ult. But it doesnt fire ur ults for you and make them land. You still have to use them urself and use ur brain like cc people for example before meteor. Thats the difference. All 3 of those sets you mentioned are actually OP even after their nerfs. I never said they are ok. But at least they are not game breaking.
Skoria isnt limited by the number of dots you can slot. Dots are like the easier thing in the game to get. You can literally slot a dmg poison and it counts as 2 dots. The builds using that set do not really change their build or anything. Skoria or not they already have the dots and they are part of their rotation. mDK can have like 6-7 dots ticking at the same time and only 3 of those are abilities that u cast with the intention of actually doing dmg. The rest are just buffs you cast anw. And yes the question is if the set outperforms. If the question was whether the classes that make the best out of it outperform then every single set in the game that a mDK uses would be balanced cause mDK will never outperform due to their design and how it doesnt fit with the current PVP meta. What skoria needs is visuals cues like meteor and dodge as a counter. Whether you call that a nerf or not it doesnt matter.
There are way too many undodgeable things in PVP. You cant take medium armor's main defence away just like that. They are squishy, they dont have shields, blocking drains their stamina in a few seconds and they cant just outheal dmg. Dodge roll is literally their main defence and as much as i hate permarollers you cant just take their defence away.
I would say getting ult you can use in situations you want is far better than getting 'free' damage you have no control over.
Sure you dont have to change your build by much (tho I would say slotting poison instead of oblivion damage ench is already big build change), but you werent even able to do that this whole patch because double poisons did not work. And even working you have 10% chance to apply poison, that will tick 4/7 times over 3/6 seconds. Thats 11 tick together over 6seconds and then at least another 4sec of downtime before you can even proc poison again.
That means you have 60% chance to proc skoria once a 10sec on one target...
I would partly agree with dodge, because it is true dodge roll is main defense and as such should be actually used to defending yourself. But dodge roll is very problematic currently because there only 2 states. Either you deal full damage to dodge roll build or you deal none. What it needs is another state between these two (imo every undodgeable skill needs it) like main skoria damage is dodgeable but when you dodge during the meteor its AoE damage will damage you.
It can be better in some situations to have an ult rdy instead of free dmg. Assuming u are a good player and u know how to use ur ults. For a bad player free dmg will always be better. Which is literally what ive been saying over and over and over again and here we go again with another reply "but bloodspawn can be equally good" as if i ever said bloodspawn isnt good.
You can use two weapons so you can still use oblivion enchant. And even without poisons mDK and templars have more than enough dots. There is no need to bring numbers into this. Its common knowledge that DKs and templars can proc it prety much on cooldown. But thats not even the issue. The issue is with its counters.
I agree dodge is a problematic and toxic mechanic. But implementing undodgeable abilities, sets etc is even worse. Right now there are so many undodgeable things that make actual medium armor builds the easiest to kill cause they simply have no counters. You can just abuse them and skoria is one way to do it.
One click does not change anything. Both are free damage. Bad player will ult at good time more often or at least as often as random proc.
The thing with numbers is that they dont lie, contrary to your feelings from anecdotal experiences.
Common knowledge != mutually shared bias for edge scenarios.
"having two weapons" is hardly relevant argument given most fights happen on one bar and swapping every 4sec to proc oblivion is not in any form viable
Dodge roll build are weak but not dead. Skoria not hitting during dodge roll is dead set. Same way red mountain is dead set after this patch. Same way any delayed proc set is dead set in PVP. Same way any dodgeable ulti is nearly dead ulti. Dodge roll is simply the cheapest and most effective defense mechanic that is available to everyone. The problem of medium armor is that it is the only one available to them. That is the sickness that needs to be treated.
//edit:
for the record, I suggested buffnerf/adjustment for skoria that would impact more those dk and templar with many dots without nearly touching those with less so the set remains competitive and not just set only dk and templar use -> increase cd and proc chance in a way that would keep proc rate same on ~4 dot builds. So for people running more of them and procing it close to on CD, the nerf would be far more impactful than for people that proc it once in 10sec.
Would not change the way the set works so nothing for antiproc set circlej**k
Random proc that doesnt scale with stats, at the right time is RNG with no skilled attached to it. Its most certainly not the same thing as using an ult at the right time, that scales with stats and has counters and its most certainly not happening as often. If the bad player used an ult in the proper way then he did something good. Its not free dmg. Its good play even if it was by luck. The rise of bad players happened with the introduction of proc sets for a reason. According to you every single proc in the game is balanced. Fortunately most people dont think the same way you do.
No fights dont happen on just one bar unless you are running in a zerg spamming one button. Plenty of barswapping. Maybe u dont find it useful having enchants/poisons on both bars but most people do. Feel free to put the poison on the backbar.
"Numbers dont lie" but they dont represent reality in the slightest. On paper you can make everything look OP and everything look trash. Even selene can look balanced on paper. Resto ult also looked trash before people tried it. PVP is not a controlled environment in case you havent noticed and the "anecdotal experiences" are facts. You actually admitted it by saying that mDK and templars can actually proc it on cd. Make up ur mind.
Like i said. Dodge is not a good mechanic as it is. But atm its what medium builds have. And implementing abilities, sets bypassing main defences is bad. Skoria not going through dodge is most certainly not a dead set. That is an absurd claim and then you are talking about bias. You are not just fighting medium armor builds. Selene is dodgeable too but its far from dead.
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SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, if you think about it, there isn't really any more skill on using blood spawn, pirate skeleton, troll king or any other set really than skoria or selene's. You could argument that those have at leastsome sort of counter, you can play around downtimes or you can build into major defile, but similar case is about the other two. Selene's well, just dodgeable and skoria is limited by user's build and the amount of dots you can slot.
Its about implementing skill in the use of those sets. This is the biggest issue with procs, that they dont need skill to be used atm on live. That means delayed, visual effects and main defence of each armor type working as a counter. They hit hard, they should be hard to land.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »im just curious why valkyn is still an instant, unavoidable proc when all the others have been nerfed
Valkyn Skoria is not instant - it's delayed with a telegraphed rumble/noise as it gets ready to impact. One can easily ward up in response to the proc. If YOU have problems with Skoria, then that's YOUR problem. L2P and stop crying.
Nerfing something doesn't improve your gameplay - it just means you'll lose to something else.
You mean learn to play magicka since this proc removes counterplay from medium armor builds like so many other things in this game.
Why don't you just block it?
That would require him to be intelligent and commit to improving his skill at a game, rather than asking for a handout. Of course, folks like him will always lose to something - nerf one thing, lose to the next.. the cycle continues.
Why dont u just make it dodgeable so every type of armor can use its main defense and then just cc ur target when u proc the set so u can guarantee that it lands?
Cause that would require u to be intelligent and commit to improving ur skill at the game rather than asking for a handout. Of course folks like you will always abuse every bs mechanic, set, ability in the game. Abuse one skilless bs thing, gets nerfed, abuse the next....they cycle continues.
You see, the fact that I'm "abusing the next so-called bs mechanic" means that I'm adapting to change and not asking for handouts, unlike you. "Abusing" a mechanic, eh? I suppose I also "abuse" the following mechanics, according to your twisted logic:
- Using a lightning staff for its channeled heavy attack, which is dot damage.
- Using Vampire's Bane to apply its dot damage while I HA or channel another ability.
- Using Soul Assault for its channeled dot damage.
- Using Radiant Oppression for its channeled dot damage.
- Equipping a monster helm that rewards me for utilizing dot damage by providing some burst.
- Stacking multiple dots to maximize the usefulness of that monster helm.
- Utilizing multiple in-game mechanics in order create a unique playstyle that I enjoy.
- Attacking players that refuse to block or ward up against my abilities.
- Adjusting my build for an upcoming patch by focusing on recently improved things.
No, abusing a set doing free dmg with actually no player skill involved and then defending it and telling other players that need to L2P. The irony. But i didnt really expect you to understand. For you skilless and skill is somehow the same thing.
You see , the most suggested change to skoria wasnt to nerf the dmg or the proc chance or anything. It was just to make it dodgeable and implement a visual effect on people's feet like meteor. That forces the skoria users to use their brain and cc, root or whatever the target to make it land. And it also leaves room for counterplay for the defender. This is called skilled gameplay. Something you clearly are unfamiliar with.
And adapting ur build every patch doesnt make it less bs or abusive or skilless. Everyone and their mother "adapted" their builds by using selene and viper. It was also bs and skilless.
If that's the most suggested change, then it's no wonder ZoS doesn't listen to us very much. That would make it worse in every single way than Selene because Selenes will hit the target the user is attacking (Skoria is not as controllable), has a shorter proc delay, does more damage, does not require a specific build / works well with every class, and can be comboed with burst instant-damage skills rather than DoTs.
So ur issue is with selene. Iol. You literally said why selene is so broken. This dumb logic everyone follows is really hilarious. This is not broken cause the other thing is more broken. No wonder we always end up with broken stuff.
Nope. That's not my issue.
I am one of the few people who have said I don't mind facing an opponent who uses Selenes. It's strong, but I think seeing if not stacking with the instant procs Viper and REd mountain is worth at least trying first before nerfing it and other sets into uselessness.
If a set is balanced but ends up being "useless" and never used because there is another set that is broken and outperforms it, then so be it. The issue is with the broken set. Not with the one that is balanced.
This is the thing, skoria can't be used by everyone, nor on every scenario. So the question is not if the set overperforms, but if the classes that can make the best out of it are. So no, skoria doesn't really need a nerf. Could use a better visual cues yes, but I don't think it's particularly strong.
Bloodspawn gives u ult. You get a lot faster ult. But it doesnt fire ur ults for you and make them land. You still have to use them urself and use ur brain like cc people for example before meteor. Thats the difference. All 3 of those sets you mentioned are actually OP even after their nerfs. I never said they are ok. But at least they are not game breaking.
Skoria isnt limited by the number of dots you can slot. Dots are like the easier thing in the game to get. You can literally slot a dmg poison and it counts as 2 dots. The builds using that set do not really change their build or anything. Skoria or not they already have the dots and they are part of their rotation. mDK can have like 6-7 dots ticking at the same time and only 3 of those are abilities that u cast with the intention of actually doing dmg. The rest are just buffs you cast anw. And yes the question is if the set outperforms. If the question was whether the classes that make the best out of it outperform then every single set in the game that a mDK uses would be balanced cause mDK will never outperform due to their design and how it doesnt fit with the current PVP meta. What skoria needs is visuals cues like meteor and dodge as a counter. Whether you call that a nerf or not it doesnt matter.
There are way too many undodgeable things in PVP. You cant take medium armor's main defence away just like that. They are squishy, they dont have shields, blocking drains their stamina in a few seconds and they cant just outheal dmg. Dodge roll is literally their main defence and as much as i hate permarollers you cant just take their defence away.
I would say getting ult you can use in situations you want is far better than getting 'free' damage you have no control over.
Sure you dont have to change your build by much (tho I would say slotting poison instead of oblivion damage ench is already big build change), but you werent even able to do that this whole patch because double poisons did not work. And even working you have 10% chance to apply poison, that will tick 4/7 times over 3/6 seconds. Thats 11 tick together over 6seconds and then at least another 4sec of downtime before you can even proc poison again.
That means you have 60% chance to proc skoria once a 10sec on one target...
I would partly agree with dodge, because it is true dodge roll is main defense and as such should be actually used to defending yourself. But dodge roll is very problematic currently because there only 2 states. Either you deal full damage to dodge roll build or you deal none. What it needs is another state between these two (imo every undodgeable skill needs it) like main skoria damage is dodgeable but when you dodge during the meteor its AoE damage will damage you.
It can be better in some situations to have an ult rdy instead of free dmg. Assuming u are a good player and u know how to use ur ults. For a bad player free dmg will always be better. Which is literally what ive been saying over and over and over again and here we go again with another reply "but bloodspawn can be equally good" as if i ever said bloodspawn isnt good.
You can use two weapons so you can still use oblivion enchant. And even without poisons mDK and templars have more than enough dots. There is no need to bring numbers into this. Its common knowledge that DKs and templars can proc it prety much on cooldown. But thats not even the issue. The issue is with its counters.
I agree dodge is a problematic and toxic mechanic. But implementing undodgeable abilities, sets etc is even worse. Right now there are so many undodgeable things that make actual medium armor builds the easiest to kill cause they simply have no counters. You can just abuse them and skoria is one way to do it.
One click does not change anything. Both are free damage. Bad player will ult at good time more often or at least as often as random proc.
The thing with numbers is that they dont lie, contrary to your feelings from anecdotal experiences.
Common knowledge != mutually shared bias for edge scenarios.
"having two weapons" is hardly relevant argument given most fights happen on one bar and swapping every 4sec to proc oblivion is not in any form viable
Dodge roll build are weak but not dead. Skoria not hitting during dodge roll is dead set. Same way red mountain is dead set after this patch. Same way any delayed proc set is dead set in PVP. Same way any dodgeable ulti is nearly dead ulti. Dodge roll is simply the cheapest and most effective defense mechanic that is available to everyone. The problem of medium armor is that it is the only one available to them. That is the sickness that needs to be treated.
//edit:
for the record, I suggested buffnerf/adjustment for skoria that would impact more those dk and templar with many dots without nearly touching those with less so the set remains competitive and not just set only dk and templar use -> increase cd and proc chance in a way that would keep proc rate same on ~4 dot builds. So for people running more of them and procing it close to on CD, the nerf would be far more impactful than for people that proc it once in 10sec.
Would not change the way the set works so nothing for antiproc set circlej**k
Random proc that doesnt scale with stats, at the right time is RNG with no skilled attached to it. Its most certainly not the same thing as using an ult at the right time, that scales with stats and has counters and its most certainly not happening as often. If the bad player used an ult in the proper way then he did something good. Its not free dmg. Its good play even if it was by luck. The rise of bad players happened with the introduction of proc sets for a reason. According to you every single proc in the game is balanced. Fortunately most people dont think the same way you do.
No fights dont happen on just one bar unless you are running in a zerg spamming one button. Plenty of barswapping. Maybe u dont find it useful having enchants/poisons on both bars but most people do. Feel free to put the poison on the backbar.
"Numbers dont lie" but they dont represent reality in the slightest. On paper you can make everything look OP and everything look trash. Even selene can look balanced on paper. Resto ult also looked trash before people tried it. PVP is not a controlled environment in case you havent noticed and the "anecdotal experiences" are facts. You actually admitted it by saying that mDK and templars can actually proc it on cd. Make up ur mind.
Like i said. Dodge is not a good mechanic as it is. But atm its what medium builds have. And implementing abilities, sets bypassing main defences is bad. Skoria not going through dodge is most certainly not a dead set. That is an absurd claim and then you are talking about bias. You are not just fighting medium armor builds. Selene is dodgeable too but its far from dead.
Yeah the does not scale with stats is BS argument. Since if it did, your issues with it would still be exactly the same.
RNG does not require skill, neither does spamming ults on CD. So whats the problem here? In second case you can get slightly better than bad at playing and will find better situations for ulti use than will rng proc ever give you.
There was no rise of bad players. Players are the same as they always were. Stacking several proc sets allowed to some stamblades to get advantage over better players that from honor decided to not run any proc set. But we are talking about single skoria arent we? If you die to some DK with skoria and you say he is bad and killed you because of free damage op proc set then you are the bad one.
Proc sest existed in this game for VERY LONG time. It was never issue until they started stacking itself.
Yes, fights do happen just on one bar. Plenty of bar swapping != you do damage with that bar. The most used offbars come from 1h+s/2h builds where they use 2H for gapcloser and execute. Offbar bow is used just to apply poison injection. People running shield as offbar are mostly using it just for block and rarely the stun. Offbar resto is never used for damage other than heavy attacks. And before you come here with your niche build that is running puncture and bash on your shield bar and then gapcloser, dizzy swing and executioner on your 2h bar. Congratulation, does not change your build is niche.
People saying numbers dont represent reality are just people that never bothered to work with them. You can make everything look OP in reality too, that is common trait of focusing on edge scenarios like you do now
Selene looks balanced on paper only when you think it is balanced ingame. The only difference is if you don't have data do make that decision (like how fast it hits, how big is the aoe, is it dodgeable or blockable)
Resto ult never looked like trash. Stop trying to plant public opinion as facts. The same people called destro ult trash when on paper it was strong and it would be strong in reality and it is now very strong after buffing it.
I never admitted templars and mdk can proc it on CD. Because that is impossible. I said close to on CD, because they can proc it faster than anyone else.
Who cares you aren't fighting just medium armor builds. Everybody can dodge and half the people are running evasion. If your proc set is useless vs third of player population it is useless proc set. And here given fair chance (like audible cue, or getting addon warning) everyone would dodge it unless they would think they are ok tanking it.Edited by SodanTok on August 3, 2017 1:24AM1 -
RedGirl41✭✭✭✭Besides the buff to heavy armor I have another question... you guys keep coming out with bigger and better homes each update. Some for crowns. WHY is it still only 700 item slots. I've been looking forward to the new crown exclusive manor but I won't even buy it because you can't fill all that space. It won't kill t he game to make slots 1000 for manors.
But also still curious why buff heavy armor again and nerf penetration. I'd suggest nerfing proc sets more AND/OR making a cp battle ground. But yeah...stop buffing heavy, it's killing the game. By nerfing sharpen and penetration that is essentially buffing heavy1 -
Amorpho✭✭✭✭Still no fix for Vicecannon and Sheer Venom! Months and months of being broken and not even an explanation as to whether their tick on reactive armor is supposed to be reflected and take you out of cloak. Please speak to us @ZOS_GinaBrunoThe Gaming Rev
YouTube channel - https://youtube.com/c/TheGamingRev
Characters
PVE
Magicka Sorcerer, Altmer - Master Crafter
Magicka Templar, Altmer
Magicka Nightblade, Breton
Stamina Nightblade, Khajiit
PVP
Magicka Sorcerer, Altmer
Magicka Templar, Altmer
Stamina Templar, Orsimer
Stamina Dragonknight, Dunmer
Stamina Warden, Orsimer
Aldmeri Dominion - 1700+ CP
XboxOne EU0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, if you think about it, there isn't really any more skill on using blood spawn, pirate skeleton, troll king or any other set really than skoria or selene's. You could argument that those have at leastsome sort of counter, you can play around downtimes or you can build into major defile, but similar case is about the other two. Selene's well, just dodgeable and skoria is limited by user's build and the amount of dots you can slot.
Its about implementing skill in the use of those sets. This is the biggest issue with procs, that they dont need skill to be used atm on live. That means delayed, visual effects and main defence of each armor type working as a counter. They hit hard, they should be hard to land.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »im just curious why valkyn is still an instant, unavoidable proc when all the others have been nerfed
Valkyn Skoria is not instant - it's delayed with a telegraphed rumble/noise as it gets ready to impact. One can easily ward up in response to the proc. If YOU have problems with Skoria, then that's YOUR problem. L2P and stop crying.
Nerfing something doesn't improve your gameplay - it just means you'll lose to something else.
You mean learn to play magicka since this proc removes counterplay from medium armor builds like so many other things in this game.
Why don't you just block it?
That would require him to be intelligent and commit to improving his skill at a game, rather than asking for a handout. Of course, folks like him will always lose to something - nerf one thing, lose to the next.. the cycle continues.
Why dont u just make it dodgeable so every type of armor can use its main defense and then just cc ur target when u proc the set so u can guarantee that it lands?
Cause that would require u to be intelligent and commit to improving ur skill at the game rather than asking for a handout. Of course folks like you will always abuse every bs mechanic, set, ability in the game. Abuse one skilless bs thing, gets nerfed, abuse the next....they cycle continues.
You see, the fact that I'm "abusing the next so-called bs mechanic" means that I'm adapting to change and not asking for handouts, unlike you. "Abusing" a mechanic, eh? I suppose I also "abuse" the following mechanics, according to your twisted logic:
- Using a lightning staff for its channeled heavy attack, which is dot damage.
- Using Vampire's Bane to apply its dot damage while I HA or channel another ability.
- Using Soul Assault for its channeled dot damage.
- Using Radiant Oppression for its channeled dot damage.
- Equipping a monster helm that rewards me for utilizing dot damage by providing some burst.
- Stacking multiple dots to maximize the usefulness of that monster helm.
- Utilizing multiple in-game mechanics in order create a unique playstyle that I enjoy.
- Attacking players that refuse to block or ward up against my abilities.
- Adjusting my build for an upcoming patch by focusing on recently improved things.
No, abusing a set doing free dmg with actually no player skill involved and then defending it and telling other players that need to L2P. The irony. But i didnt really expect you to understand. For you skilless and skill is somehow the same thing.
You see , the most suggested change to skoria wasnt to nerf the dmg or the proc chance or anything. It was just to make it dodgeable and implement a visual effect on people's feet like meteor. That forces the skoria users to use their brain and cc, root or whatever the target to make it land. And it also leaves room for counterplay for the defender. This is called skilled gameplay. Something you clearly are unfamiliar with.
And adapting ur build every patch doesnt make it less bs or abusive or skilless. Everyone and their mother "adapted" their builds by using selene and viper. It was also bs and skilless.
If that's the most suggested change, then it's no wonder ZoS doesn't listen to us very much. That would make it worse in every single way than Selene because Selenes will hit the target the user is attacking (Skoria is not as controllable), has a shorter proc delay, does more damage, does not require a specific build / works well with every class, and can be comboed with burst instant-damage skills rather than DoTs.
So ur issue is with selene. Iol. You literally said why selene is so broken. This dumb logic everyone follows is really hilarious. This is not broken cause the other thing is more broken. No wonder we always end up with broken stuff.
Nope. That's not my issue.
I am one of the few people who have said I don't mind facing an opponent who uses Selenes. It's strong, but I think seeing if not stacking with the instant procs Viper and REd mountain is worth at least trying first before nerfing it and other sets into uselessness.
If a set is balanced but ends up being "useless" and never used because there is another set that is broken and outperforms it, then so be it. The issue is with the broken set. Not with the one that is balanced.
This is the thing, skoria can't be used by everyone, nor on every scenario. So the question is not if the set overperforms, but if the classes that can make the best out of it are. So no, skoria doesn't really need a nerf. Could use a better visual cues yes, but I don't think it's particularly strong.
Bloodspawn gives u ult. You get a lot faster ult. But it doesnt fire ur ults for you and make them land. You still have to use them urself and use ur brain like cc people for example before meteor. Thats the difference. All 3 of those sets you mentioned are actually OP even after their nerfs. I never said they are ok. But at least they are not game breaking.
Skoria isnt limited by the number of dots you can slot. Dots are like the easier thing in the game to get. You can literally slot a dmg poison and it counts as 2 dots. The builds using that set do not really change their build or anything. Skoria or not they already have the dots and they are part of their rotation. mDK can have like 6-7 dots ticking at the same time and only 3 of those are abilities that u cast with the intention of actually doing dmg. The rest are just buffs you cast anw. And yes the question is if the set outperforms. If the question was whether the classes that make the best out of it outperform then every single set in the game that a mDK uses would be balanced cause mDK will never outperform due to their design and how it doesnt fit with the current PVP meta. What skoria needs is visuals cues like meteor and dodge as a counter. Whether you call that a nerf or not it doesnt matter.
There are way too many undodgeable things in PVP. You cant take medium armor's main defence away just like that. They are squishy, they dont have shields, blocking drains their stamina in a few seconds and they cant just outheal dmg. Dodge roll is literally their main defence and as much as i hate permarollers you cant just take their defence away.
I would say getting ult you can use in situations you want is far better than getting 'free' damage you have no control over.
Sure you dont have to change your build by much (tho I would say slotting poison instead of oblivion damage ench is already big build change), but you werent even able to do that this whole patch because double poisons did not work. And even working you have 10% chance to apply poison, that will tick 4/7 times over 3/6 seconds. Thats 11 tick together over 6seconds and then at least another 4sec of downtime before you can even proc poison again.
That means you have 60% chance to proc skoria once a 10sec on one target...
I would partly agree with dodge, because it is true dodge roll is main defense and as such should be actually used to defending yourself. But dodge roll is very problematic currently because there only 2 states. Either you deal full damage to dodge roll build or you deal none. What it needs is another state between these two (imo every undodgeable skill needs it) like main skoria damage is dodgeable but when you dodge during the meteor its AoE damage will damage you.
It can be better in some situations to have an ult rdy instead of free dmg. Assuming u are a good player and u know how to use ur ults. For a bad player free dmg will always be better. Which is literally what ive been saying over and over and over again and here we go again with another reply "but bloodspawn can be equally good" as if i ever said bloodspawn isnt good.
You can use two weapons so you can still use oblivion enchant. And even without poisons mDK and templars have more than enough dots. There is no need to bring numbers into this. Its common knowledge that DKs and templars can proc it prety much on cooldown. But thats not even the issue. The issue is with its counters.
I agree dodge is a problematic and toxic mechanic. But implementing undodgeable abilities, sets etc is even worse. Right now there are so many undodgeable things that make actual medium armor builds the easiest to kill cause they simply have no counters. You can just abuse them and skoria is one way to do it.
One click does not change anything. Both are free damage. Bad player will ult at good time more often or at least as often as random proc.
The thing with numbers is that they dont lie, contrary to your feelings from anecdotal experiences.
Common knowledge != mutually shared bias for edge scenarios.
"having two weapons" is hardly relevant argument given most fights happen on one bar and swapping every 4sec to proc oblivion is not in any form viable
Dodge roll build are weak but not dead. Skoria not hitting during dodge roll is dead set. Same way red mountain is dead set after this patch. Same way any delayed proc set is dead set in PVP. Same way any dodgeable ulti is nearly dead ulti. Dodge roll is simply the cheapest and most effective defense mechanic that is available to everyone. The problem of medium armor is that it is the only one available to them. That is the sickness that needs to be treated.
//edit:
for the record, I suggested buffnerf/adjustment for skoria that would impact more those dk and templar with many dots without nearly touching those with less so the set remains competitive and not just set only dk and templar use -> increase cd and proc chance in a way that would keep proc rate same on ~4 dot builds. So for people running more of them and procing it close to on CD, the nerf would be far more impactful than for people that proc it once in 10sec.
Would not change the way the set works so nothing for antiproc set circlej**k
Random proc that doesnt scale with stats, at the right time is RNG with no skilled attached to it. Its most certainly not the same thing as using an ult at the right time, that scales with stats and has counters and its most certainly not happening as often. If the bad player used an ult in the proper way then he did something good. Its not free dmg. Its good play even if it was by luck. The rise of bad players happened with the introduction of proc sets for a reason. According to you every single proc in the game is balanced. Fortunately most people dont think the same way you do.
No fights dont happen on just one bar unless you are running in a zerg spamming one button. Plenty of barswapping. Maybe u dont find it useful having enchants/poisons on both bars but most people do. Feel free to put the poison on the backbar.
"Numbers dont lie" but they dont represent reality in the slightest. On paper you can make everything look OP and everything look trash. Even selene can look balanced on paper. Resto ult also looked trash before people tried it. PVP is not a controlled environment in case you havent noticed and the "anecdotal experiences" are facts. You actually admitted it by saying that mDK and templars can actually proc it on cd. Make up ur mind.
Like i said. Dodge is not a good mechanic as it is. But atm its what medium builds have. And implementing abilities, sets bypassing main defences is bad. Skoria not going through dodge is most certainly not a dead set. That is an absurd claim and then you are talking about bias. You are not just fighting medium armor builds. Selene is dodgeable too but its far from dead.
Yeah the does not scale with stats is BS argument. Since if it did, your issues with it would still be exactly the same.
RNG does not require skill, neither does spamming ults on CD. So whats the problem here? In second case you can get slightly better than bad at playing and will find better situations for ulti use than will rng proc ever give you.
There was no rise of bad players. Players are the same as they always were. Stacking several proc sets allowed to some stamblades to get advantage over better players that from honor decided to not run any proc set. But we are talking about single skoria arent we? If you die to some DK with skoria and you say he is bad and killed you because of free damage op proc set then you are the bad one.
Proc sest existed in this game for VERY LONG time. It was never issue until they started stacking itself.
Yes, fights do happen just on one bar. Plenty of bar swapping != you do damage with that bar. The most used offbars come from 1h+s/2h builds where they use 2H for gapcloser and execute. Offbar bow is used just to apply poison injection. People running shield as offbar are mostly using it just for block and rarely the stun. Offbar resto is never used for damage other than heavy attacks. And before you come here with your niche build that is running puncture and bash on your shield bar and then gapcloser, dizzy swing and executioner on your 2h bar. Congratulation, does not change your build is niche.
People saying numbers dont represent reality are just people that never bothered to work with them. You can make everything look OP in reality too, that is common trait of focusing on edge scenarios like you do now
Selene looks balanced on paper only when you think it is balanced ingame. The only difference is if you don't have data do make that decision (like how fast it hits, how big is the aoe, is it dodgeable or blockable)
Resto ult never looked like trash. Stop trying to plant public opinion as facts. The same people called destro ult trash when on paper it was strong and it would be strong in reality and it is now very strong after buffing it.
I never admitted templars and mdk can proc it on CD. Because that is impossible. I said close to on CD, because they can proc it faster than anyone else.
Who cares you aren't fighting just medium armor builds. Everybody can dodge and half the people are running evasion. If your proc set is useless vs third of player population it is useless proc set. And here given fair chance (like audible cue, or getting addon warning) everyone would dodge it unless they would think they are ok tanking it.
The does not scale argument is far from ***. Those procblades running around one shotting people have 25k stamina and 2k wpn dmg. Thats is prety much the definition of trash stats but their burst stays intact. Stop comparing the random proc doing the dmg for you with the usage of an ult that is dependant on ur stats and ur ability to keep ur buffs up and it has to be manually casted from and in most cases in the right way as well to get the most out of it. In the first case your gear does the dmg, in the second case you are doing the dmg. Your inability to realise the difference is astonishing. A proc hitting you from a good or bad player will be the same. A good player will use meteor at the right time and will fossilize you to make it land. A bad player is gonna open the fight with meteor without cc you effectively wasting the ult. Its not the same.
There was absolutely a rise of bad players due to procs. Procs remove skill from the game. The more you stack the better. Skoria can be stacked as well. And yes its free dmg. I played with just skoria on mDK. The difference in dmg is night and day. 1.5k spell dmg and less than 40k magicka and thats with cp. My dmg was still fine. I was just permablocking and stacking dots and let it rain. Skoria was always either the first or second in dmg and i didnt have to do anything.
You are not playing the same game you were playing a VERY LONG time ago. Sustain being more important now means not as easy to invest into dmg. Procs take care of your dmg. Just try playing in no CP.
No fights doesnt happen on just one bar. If you dont find it useful having enchant or poison on both bars then u are the bad player and not me with the niche build. Maybe u are zerging spamming one button and cant weave reliably. Either way, ur issue.
People saying numbers dont represent reality are not people that dont work with numbers. This is just a misconception you have for whatever reason. I work with numbers. I just prefer experience instead of letting numbers tell me what to do. PVP isnt a controlled environment. There a lot more variables than just using a calculator. Selene on live has 1 second delay and its dodgeable. Plenty of time to move out right? Wrong. You are not just gonna sit there and wait for a bear so u can roll. You are snared, rooted, stunned, lagged ambushed etc. Saying that skoria becomes trash if its dodgeable is focusing on one of those edge scenarios that u mentioned, in which you can make everything look OP or trash depending on ur preference. There are plenty of dodgeable abilities that u see them coming from miles away. They are not trash. And even if it doesnt become dodgeable, it still needs visual cues to make the existing counters actually reliable counters.Edited by pieratsos on August 3, 2017 9:00AM2 -
AdicusDio✭✭✭Christ, now Spriggan's? People need to realize all these pen reductions will make vet dungeons take longer, and everyone that invested time into maxing out their builds, are getting a smack in the face with reductions. I'm sure it'll cost more than 30 cp to "make up" the difference pen too. This game isn't exactly the end-all of games, but it's looking like the game I'll be ending soon. The luster has turned to rust at this point, and I don't like petinas.1
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SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, if you think about it, there isn't really any more skill on using blood spawn, pirate skeleton, troll king or any other set really than skoria or selene's. You could argument that those have at leastsome sort of counter, you can play around downtimes or you can build into major defile, but similar case is about the other two. Selene's well, just dodgeable and skoria is limited by user's build and the amount of dots you can slot.
Its about implementing skill in the use of those sets. This is the biggest issue with procs, that they dont need skill to be used atm on live. That means delayed, visual effects and main defence of each armor type working as a counter. They hit hard, they should be hard to land.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »im just curious why valkyn is still an instant, unavoidable proc when all the others have been nerfed
Valkyn Skoria is not instant - it's delayed with a telegraphed rumble/noise as it gets ready to impact. One can easily ward up in response to the proc. If YOU have problems with Skoria, then that's YOUR problem. L2P and stop crying.
Nerfing something doesn't improve your gameplay - it just means you'll lose to something else.
You mean learn to play magicka since this proc removes counterplay from medium armor builds like so many other things in this game.
Why don't you just block it?
That would require him to be intelligent and commit to improving his skill at a game, rather than asking for a handout. Of course, folks like him will always lose to something - nerf one thing, lose to the next.. the cycle continues.
Why dont u just make it dodgeable so every type of armor can use its main defense and then just cc ur target when u proc the set so u can guarantee that it lands?
Cause that would require u to be intelligent and commit to improving ur skill at the game rather than asking for a handout. Of course folks like you will always abuse every bs mechanic, set, ability in the game. Abuse one skilless bs thing, gets nerfed, abuse the next....they cycle continues.
You see, the fact that I'm "abusing the next so-called bs mechanic" means that I'm adapting to change and not asking for handouts, unlike you. "Abusing" a mechanic, eh? I suppose I also "abuse" the following mechanics, according to your twisted logic:
- Using a lightning staff for its channeled heavy attack, which is dot damage.
- Using Vampire's Bane to apply its dot damage while I HA or channel another ability.
- Using Soul Assault for its channeled dot damage.
- Using Radiant Oppression for its channeled dot damage.
- Equipping a monster helm that rewards me for utilizing dot damage by providing some burst.
- Stacking multiple dots to maximize the usefulness of that monster helm.
- Utilizing multiple in-game mechanics in order create a unique playstyle that I enjoy.
- Attacking players that refuse to block or ward up against my abilities.
- Adjusting my build for an upcoming patch by focusing on recently improved things.
No, abusing a set doing free dmg with actually no player skill involved and then defending it and telling other players that need to L2P. The irony. But i didnt really expect you to understand. For you skilless and skill is somehow the same thing.
You see , the most suggested change to skoria wasnt to nerf the dmg or the proc chance or anything. It was just to make it dodgeable and implement a visual effect on people's feet like meteor. That forces the skoria users to use their brain and cc, root or whatever the target to make it land. And it also leaves room for counterplay for the defender. This is called skilled gameplay. Something you clearly are unfamiliar with.
And adapting ur build every patch doesnt make it less bs or abusive or skilless. Everyone and their mother "adapted" their builds by using selene and viper. It was also bs and skilless.
If that's the most suggested change, then it's no wonder ZoS doesn't listen to us very much. That would make it worse in every single way than Selene because Selenes will hit the target the user is attacking (Skoria is not as controllable), has a shorter proc delay, does more damage, does not require a specific build / works well with every class, and can be comboed with burst instant-damage skills rather than DoTs.
So ur issue is with selene. Iol. You literally said why selene is so broken. This dumb logic everyone follows is really hilarious. This is not broken cause the other thing is more broken. No wonder we always end up with broken stuff.
Nope. That's not my issue.
I am one of the few people who have said I don't mind facing an opponent who uses Selenes. It's strong, but I think seeing if not stacking with the instant procs Viper and REd mountain is worth at least trying first before nerfing it and other sets into uselessness.
If a set is balanced but ends up being "useless" and never used because there is another set that is broken and outperforms it, then so be it. The issue is with the broken set. Not with the one that is balanced.
This is the thing, skoria can't be used by everyone, nor on every scenario. So the question is not if the set overperforms, but if the classes that can make the best out of it are. So no, skoria doesn't really need a nerf. Could use a better visual cues yes, but I don't think it's particularly strong.
Bloodspawn gives u ult. You get a lot faster ult. But it doesnt fire ur ults for you and make them land. You still have to use them urself and use ur brain like cc people for example before meteor. Thats the difference. All 3 of those sets you mentioned are actually OP even after their nerfs. I never said they are ok. But at least they are not game breaking.
Skoria isnt limited by the number of dots you can slot. Dots are like the easier thing in the game to get. You can literally slot a dmg poison and it counts as 2 dots. The builds using that set do not really change their build or anything. Skoria or not they already have the dots and they are part of their rotation. mDK can have like 6-7 dots ticking at the same time and only 3 of those are abilities that u cast with the intention of actually doing dmg. The rest are just buffs you cast anw. And yes the question is if the set outperforms. If the question was whether the classes that make the best out of it outperform then every single set in the game that a mDK uses would be balanced cause mDK will never outperform due to their design and how it doesnt fit with the current PVP meta. What skoria needs is visuals cues like meteor and dodge as a counter. Whether you call that a nerf or not it doesnt matter.
There are way too many undodgeable things in PVP. You cant take medium armor's main defence away just like that. They are squishy, they dont have shields, blocking drains their stamina in a few seconds and they cant just outheal dmg. Dodge roll is literally their main defence and as much as i hate permarollers you cant just take their defence away.
I would say getting ult you can use in situations you want is far better than getting 'free' damage you have no control over.
Sure you dont have to change your build by much (tho I would say slotting poison instead of oblivion damage ench is already big build change), but you werent even able to do that this whole patch because double poisons did not work. And even working you have 10% chance to apply poison, that will tick 4/7 times over 3/6 seconds. Thats 11 tick together over 6seconds and then at least another 4sec of downtime before you can even proc poison again.
That means you have 60% chance to proc skoria once a 10sec on one target...
I would partly agree with dodge, because it is true dodge roll is main defense and as such should be actually used to defending yourself. But dodge roll is very problematic currently because there only 2 states. Either you deal full damage to dodge roll build or you deal none. What it needs is another state between these two (imo every undodgeable skill needs it) like main skoria damage is dodgeable but when you dodge during the meteor its AoE damage will damage you.
It can be better in some situations to have an ult rdy instead of free dmg. Assuming u are a good player and u know how to use ur ults. For a bad player free dmg will always be better. Which is literally what ive been saying over and over and over again and here we go again with another reply "but bloodspawn can be equally good" as if i ever said bloodspawn isnt good.
You can use two weapons so you can still use oblivion enchant. And even without poisons mDK and templars have more than enough dots. There is no need to bring numbers into this. Its common knowledge that DKs and templars can proc it prety much on cooldown. But thats not even the issue. The issue is with its counters.
I agree dodge is a problematic and toxic mechanic. But implementing undodgeable abilities, sets etc is even worse. Right now there are so many undodgeable things that make actual medium armor builds the easiest to kill cause they simply have no counters. You can just abuse them and skoria is one way to do it.
One click does not change anything. Both are free damage. Bad player will ult at good time more often or at least as often as random proc.
The thing with numbers is that they dont lie, contrary to your feelings from anecdotal experiences.
Common knowledge != mutually shared bias for edge scenarios.
"having two weapons" is hardly relevant argument given most fights happen on one bar and swapping every 4sec to proc oblivion is not in any form viable
Dodge roll build are weak but not dead. Skoria not hitting during dodge roll is dead set. Same way red mountain is dead set after this patch. Same way any delayed proc set is dead set in PVP. Same way any dodgeable ulti is nearly dead ulti. Dodge roll is simply the cheapest and most effective defense mechanic that is available to everyone. The problem of medium armor is that it is the only one available to them. That is the sickness that needs to be treated.
//edit:
for the record, I suggested buffnerf/adjustment for skoria that would impact more those dk and templar with many dots without nearly touching those with less so the set remains competitive and not just set only dk and templar use -> increase cd and proc chance in a way that would keep proc rate same on ~4 dot builds. So for people running more of them and procing it close to on CD, the nerf would be far more impactful than for people that proc it once in 10sec.
Would not change the way the set works so nothing for antiproc set circlej**k
Random proc that doesnt scale with stats, at the right time is RNG with no skilled attached to it. Its most certainly not the same thing as using an ult at the right time, that scales with stats and has counters and its most certainly not happening as often. If the bad player used an ult in the proper way then he did something good. Its not free dmg. Its good play even if it was by luck. The rise of bad players happened with the introduction of proc sets for a reason. According to you every single proc in the game is balanced. Fortunately most people dont think the same way you do.
No fights dont happen on just one bar unless you are running in a zerg spamming one button. Plenty of barswapping. Maybe u dont find it useful having enchants/poisons on both bars but most people do. Feel free to put the poison on the backbar.
"Numbers dont lie" but they dont represent reality in the slightest. On paper you can make everything look OP and everything look trash. Even selene can look balanced on paper. Resto ult also looked trash before people tried it. PVP is not a controlled environment in case you havent noticed and the "anecdotal experiences" are facts. You actually admitted it by saying that mDK and templars can actually proc it on cd. Make up ur mind.
Like i said. Dodge is not a good mechanic as it is. But atm its what medium builds have. And implementing abilities, sets bypassing main defences is bad. Skoria not going through dodge is most certainly not a dead set. That is an absurd claim and then you are talking about bias. You are not just fighting medium armor builds. Selene is dodgeable too but its far from dead.
Yeah the does not scale with stats is BS argument. Since if it did, your issues with it would still be exactly the same.
RNG does not require skill, neither does spamming ults on CD. So whats the problem here? In second case you can get slightly better than bad at playing and will find better situations for ulti use than will rng proc ever give you.
There was no rise of bad players. Players are the same as they always were. Stacking several proc sets allowed to some stamblades to get advantage over better players that from honor decided to not run any proc set. But we are talking about single skoria arent we? If you die to some DK with skoria and you say he is bad and killed you because of free damage op proc set then you are the bad one.
Proc sest existed in this game for VERY LONG time. It was never issue until they started stacking itself.
Yes, fights do happen just on one bar. Plenty of bar swapping != you do damage with that bar. The most used offbars come from 1h+s/2h builds where they use 2H for gapcloser and execute. Offbar bow is used just to apply poison injection. People running shield as offbar are mostly using it just for block and rarely the stun. Offbar resto is never used for damage other than heavy attacks. And before you come here with your niche build that is running puncture and bash on your shield bar and then gapcloser, dizzy swing and executioner on your 2h bar. Congratulation, does not change your build is niche.
People saying numbers dont represent reality are just people that never bothered to work with them. You can make everything look OP in reality too, that is common trait of focusing on edge scenarios like you do now
Selene looks balanced on paper only when you think it is balanced ingame. The only difference is if you don't have data do make that decision (like how fast it hits, how big is the aoe, is it dodgeable or blockable)
Resto ult never looked like trash. Stop trying to plant public opinion as facts. The same people called destro ult trash when on paper it was strong and it would be strong in reality and it is now very strong after buffing it.
I never admitted templars and mdk can proc it on CD. Because that is impossible. I said close to on CD, because they can proc it faster than anyone else.
Who cares you aren't fighting just medium armor builds. Everybody can dodge and half the people are running evasion. If your proc set is useless vs third of player population it is useless proc set. And here given fair chance (like audible cue, or getting addon warning) everyone would dodge it unless they would think they are ok tanking it.
The does not scale argument is far from ***. Those procblades running around one shotting people have 25k stamina and 2k wpn dmg. Thats is prety much the definition of trash stats but their burst stays intact. Stop comparing the random proc doing the dmg for you with the usage of an ult that is dependant on ur stats and ur ability to keep ur buffs up and it has to be manually casted from and in most cases in the right way as well to get the most out of it. In the first case your gear does the dmg, in the second case you are doing the dmg. Your inability to realise the difference is astonishing. A proc hitting you from a good or bad player will be the same. A good player will use meteor at the right time and will fossilize you to make it land. A bad player is gonna open the fight with meteor without cc you effectively wasting the ult. Its not the same.
There was absolutely a rise of bad players due to procs. Procs remove skill from the game. The more you stack the better. Skoria can be stacked as well. And yes its free dmg. I played with just skoria on mDK. The difference in dmg is night and day. 1.5k spell dmg and less than 40k magicka and thats with cp. My dmg was still fine. I was just permablocking and stacking dots and let it rain. Skoria was always either the first or second in dmg and i didnt have to do anything.
You are not playing the same game you were playing a VERY LONG time ago. Sustain being more important now means not as easy to invest into dmg. Procs take care of your dmg. Just try playing in no CP.
No fights doesnt happen on just one bar. If you dont find it useful having enchant or poison on both bars then u are the bad player and not me with the niche build. Maybe u are zerging spamming one button and cant weave reliably. Either way, ur issue.
People saying numbers dont represent reality are not people that dont work with numbers. This is just a misconception you have for whatever reason. I work with numbers. I just prefer experience instead of letting numbers tell me what to do. PVP isnt a controlled environment. There a lot more variables than just using a calculator. Selene on live has 1 second delay and its dodgeable. Plenty of time to move out right? Wrong. You are not just gonna sit there and wait for a bear so u can roll. You are snared, rooted, stunned, lagged ambushed etc. Saying that skoria becomes trash if its dodgeable is focusing on one of those edge scenarios that u mentioned, in which you can make everything look OP or trash depending on ur preference. There are plenty of dodgeable abilities that u see them coming from miles away. They are not trash. And even if it doesnt become dodgeable, it still needs visual cues to make the existing counters actually reliable counters.
I would reply to you, but it would be same reply as before so just read it again. I literally argued to every point of yours and you only repeated them again.
I guess, there comes the l2p part, because if you struggle against single procs from bad players, you arent good.
FYI, variables are just a numbers. Don't blame numbers for your inability to work with better data. It is no one's problem but yours if you look at something and say yourself "it can kill you in one hit but it is very obvious and you can dodge it so its fine" without thinking of synergies with roots and CC or different impact on different builds.
btw how is dodge roll edge scenario, everybody is using dodge roll be it medium build or shield stacking sorc. If you give everyone chance to dodge roll skoria they will do it or make conscious decision not to. This is opposite of edge scenario. Edge scenario will be dodge roll builds not dodging it. Many dodgeable abilities that you can see from miles away are actually trash.
Not that I disagree with better visual cue on skoria or slightly less damage or slightly longer CD. But you keep making it bigger deal than it is, almost like skoria instead of falling from the sky once flew from the ground and touched some parts of you that never healed properly Edited by SodanTok on August 3, 2017 11:20AM0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There´re two things about Skoria IMO. One thing is the "proc-off" cooldown argument, which I call more or less true.The other part is about the counter perspective with the set
Proc-off cooldown:
I did some tests with Skoria the other day (the pictures are somewhere here on the forum on another thread, just to lazy to find them at the moment) running my PvE setup. As a magDK in PvE you can run more DoT´s than you can in PvP. The DoT´s I ran on my DPS tests were:
- Elemental Blockade
- Engulfing Flames
- Burning Embers
- Burning Status Effect
- Rearming Trap
- Standard Of Might
- Eruption
Now some people say that Skoria procs off-cooldown all the time. The closest I got during my tests (posted 7 dps test in a forumposts, but did another 10 tests after that, which I didn´t post) was 1 Skoria proc every 7th second. Sure, I didn´t have 100% uptime on all my dots but that´s not realistic to think you will have in a PvP scenario either, at it´s easier to maintain more and higher uptime on DoT´s in PvE compared to PvP. My test doesn´t prove that Skoria can´t proc off-cooldown (once every 5-6 seconds), but to claim that It would proc more in PvP scenario (unless you´re RNGesus yourself) doesn´t sound legit to me. Now we´re mainly talking single target here, since that´s the easiest to test. Against multiple enemies if you manage to get your DoT´s on more enemies Skoria will probably proc more often. So in my opinion the procrate isn´t the biggest issue.
Counter Skoria:
This part is more interesting to discuss. ZOS has made some changes to some other monster-sets to open up for more counterplay. I think ZOS need to chose between 2 ways of (if the decide to change Skoria) changing Skoria:
- Make it dodgeable: Not a fan of that solution, but adding a ground aoe component (like with the meteor from Mages guild ultimate) could be a way of compensate for it being dodgeable
- Add some sort of sign who will get hit by the meteor: I personally like this more. It will make it easier to counter (aka block it) and it will also make it easier for the one using Skoria vs multiple enemies to know who to focus.
A third part is the damage of Skoria: Due to it´s procrate (comparing to other damagedealing sets) and condition to run DoT´s it´s quite balanced. As I said I think discussing the "Counter-part" of Skoria is more meaningful than to talk about how often it procs, without brining numbers, because at the end of the day, numbers are the only hard evidence ZOS can use to balance sets. Doesn´t matter how much you think something "should work", if you can´t back it up with nothing else but experience/feelings, ZOS can´t do much with it.
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, if you think about it, there isn't really any more skill on using blood spawn, pirate skeleton, troll king or any other set really than skoria or selene's. You could argument that those have at leastsome sort of counter, you can play around downtimes or you can build into major defile, but similar case is about the other two. Selene's well, just dodgeable and skoria is limited by user's build and the amount of dots you can slot.
Its about implementing skill in the use of those sets. This is the biggest issue with procs, that they dont need skill to be used atm on live. That means delayed, visual effects and main defence of each armor type working as a counter. They hit hard, they should be hard to land.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »im just curious why valkyn is still an instant, unavoidable proc when all the others have been nerfed
Valkyn Skoria is not instant - it's delayed with a telegraphed rumble/noise as it gets ready to impact. One can easily ward up in response to the proc. If YOU have problems with Skoria, then that's YOUR problem. L2P and stop crying.
Nerfing something doesn't improve your gameplay - it just means you'll lose to something else.
You mean learn to play magicka since this proc removes counterplay from medium armor builds like so many other things in this game.
Why don't you just block it?
That would require him to be intelligent and commit to improving his skill at a game, rather than asking for a handout. Of course, folks like him will always lose to something - nerf one thing, lose to the next.. the cycle continues.
Why dont u just make it dodgeable so every type of armor can use its main defense and then just cc ur target when u proc the set so u can guarantee that it lands?
Cause that would require u to be intelligent and commit to improving ur skill at the game rather than asking for a handout. Of course folks like you will always abuse every bs mechanic, set, ability in the game. Abuse one skilless bs thing, gets nerfed, abuse the next....they cycle continues.
You see, the fact that I'm "abusing the next so-called bs mechanic" means that I'm adapting to change and not asking for handouts, unlike you. "Abusing" a mechanic, eh? I suppose I also "abuse" the following mechanics, according to your twisted logic:
- Using a lightning staff for its channeled heavy attack, which is dot damage.
- Using Vampire's Bane to apply its dot damage while I HA or channel another ability.
- Using Soul Assault for its channeled dot damage.
- Using Radiant Oppression for its channeled dot damage.
- Equipping a monster helm that rewards me for utilizing dot damage by providing some burst.
- Stacking multiple dots to maximize the usefulness of that monster helm.
- Utilizing multiple in-game mechanics in order create a unique playstyle that I enjoy.
- Attacking players that refuse to block or ward up against my abilities.
- Adjusting my build for an upcoming patch by focusing on recently improved things.
No, abusing a set doing free dmg with actually no player skill involved and then defending it and telling other players that need to L2P. The irony. But i didnt really expect you to understand. For you skilless and skill is somehow the same thing.
You see , the most suggested change to skoria wasnt to nerf the dmg or the proc chance or anything. It was just to make it dodgeable and implement a visual effect on people's feet like meteor. That forces the skoria users to use their brain and cc, root or whatever the target to make it land. And it also leaves room for counterplay for the defender. This is called skilled gameplay. Something you clearly are unfamiliar with.
And adapting ur build every patch doesnt make it less bs or abusive or skilless. Everyone and their mother "adapted" their builds by using selene and viper. It was also bs and skilless.
If that's the most suggested change, then it's no wonder ZoS doesn't listen to us very much. That would make it worse in every single way than Selene because Selenes will hit the target the user is attacking (Skoria is not as controllable), has a shorter proc delay, does more damage, does not require a specific build / works well with every class, and can be comboed with burst instant-damage skills rather than DoTs.
So ur issue is with selene. Iol. You literally said why selene is so broken. This dumb logic everyone follows is really hilarious. This is not broken cause the other thing is more broken. No wonder we always end up with broken stuff.
Nope. That's not my issue.
I am one of the few people who have said I don't mind facing an opponent who uses Selenes. It's strong, but I think seeing if not stacking with the instant procs Viper and REd mountain is worth at least trying first before nerfing it and other sets into uselessness.
If a set is balanced but ends up being "useless" and never used because there is another set that is broken and outperforms it, then so be it. The issue is with the broken set. Not with the one that is balanced.
This is the thing, skoria can't be used by everyone, nor on every scenario. So the question is not if the set overperforms, but if the classes that can make the best out of it are. So no, skoria doesn't really need a nerf. Could use a better visual cues yes, but I don't think it's particularly strong.
Bloodspawn gives u ult. You get a lot faster ult. But it doesnt fire ur ults for you and make them land. You still have to use them urself and use ur brain like cc people for example before meteor. Thats the difference. All 3 of those sets you mentioned are actually OP even after their nerfs. I never said they are ok. But at least they are not game breaking.
Skoria isnt limited by the number of dots you can slot. Dots are like the easier thing in the game to get. You can literally slot a dmg poison and it counts as 2 dots. The builds using that set do not really change their build or anything. Skoria or not they already have the dots and they are part of their rotation. mDK can have like 6-7 dots ticking at the same time and only 3 of those are abilities that u cast with the intention of actually doing dmg. The rest are just buffs you cast anw. And yes the question is if the set outperforms. If the question was whether the classes that make the best out of it outperform then every single set in the game that a mDK uses would be balanced cause mDK will never outperform due to their design and how it doesnt fit with the current PVP meta. What skoria needs is visuals cues like meteor and dodge as a counter. Whether you call that a nerf or not it doesnt matter.
There are way too many undodgeable things in PVP. You cant take medium armor's main defence away just like that. They are squishy, they dont have shields, blocking drains their stamina in a few seconds and they cant just outheal dmg. Dodge roll is literally their main defence and as much as i hate permarollers you cant just take their defence away.
I would say getting ult you can use in situations you want is far better than getting 'free' damage you have no control over.
Sure you dont have to change your build by much (tho I would say slotting poison instead of oblivion damage ench is already big build change), but you werent even able to do that this whole patch because double poisons did not work. And even working you have 10% chance to apply poison, that will tick 4/7 times over 3/6 seconds. Thats 11 tick together over 6seconds and then at least another 4sec of downtime before you can even proc poison again.
That means you have 60% chance to proc skoria once a 10sec on one target...
I would partly agree with dodge, because it is true dodge roll is main defense and as such should be actually used to defending yourself. But dodge roll is very problematic currently because there only 2 states. Either you deal full damage to dodge roll build or you deal none. What it needs is another state between these two (imo every undodgeable skill needs it) like main skoria damage is dodgeable but when you dodge during the meteor its AoE damage will damage you.
It can be better in some situations to have an ult rdy instead of free dmg. Assuming u are a good player and u know how to use ur ults. For a bad player free dmg will always be better. Which is literally what ive been saying over and over and over again and here we go again with another reply "but bloodspawn can be equally good" as if i ever said bloodspawn isnt good.
You can use two weapons so you can still use oblivion enchant. And even without poisons mDK and templars have more than enough dots. There is no need to bring numbers into this. Its common knowledge that DKs and templars can proc it prety much on cooldown. But thats not even the issue. The issue is with its counters.
I agree dodge is a problematic and toxic mechanic. But implementing undodgeable abilities, sets etc is even worse. Right now there are so many undodgeable things that make actual medium armor builds the easiest to kill cause they simply have no counters. You can just abuse them and skoria is one way to do it.
One click does not change anything. Both are free damage. Bad player will ult at good time more often or at least as often as random proc.
The thing with numbers is that they dont lie, contrary to your feelings from anecdotal experiences.
Common knowledge != mutually shared bias for edge scenarios.
"having two weapons" is hardly relevant argument given most fights happen on one bar and swapping every 4sec to proc oblivion is not in any form viable
Dodge roll build are weak but not dead. Skoria not hitting during dodge roll is dead set. Same way red mountain is dead set after this patch. Same way any delayed proc set is dead set in PVP. Same way any dodgeable ulti is nearly dead ulti. Dodge roll is simply the cheapest and most effective defense mechanic that is available to everyone. The problem of medium armor is that it is the only one available to them. That is the sickness that needs to be treated.
//edit:
for the record, I suggested buffnerf/adjustment for skoria that would impact more those dk and templar with many dots without nearly touching those with less so the set remains competitive and not just set only dk and templar use -> increase cd and proc chance in a way that would keep proc rate same on ~4 dot builds. So for people running more of them and procing it close to on CD, the nerf would be far more impactful than for people that proc it once in 10sec.
Would not change the way the set works so nothing for antiproc set circlej**k
Random proc that doesnt scale with stats, at the right time is RNG with no skilled attached to it. Its most certainly not the same thing as using an ult at the right time, that scales with stats and has counters and its most certainly not happening as often. If the bad player used an ult in the proper way then he did something good. Its not free dmg. Its good play even if it was by luck. The rise of bad players happened with the introduction of proc sets for a reason. According to you every single proc in the game is balanced. Fortunately most people dont think the same way you do.
No fights dont happen on just one bar unless you are running in a zerg spamming one button. Plenty of barswapping. Maybe u dont find it useful having enchants/poisons on both bars but most people do. Feel free to put the poison on the backbar.
"Numbers dont lie" but they dont represent reality in the slightest. On paper you can make everything look OP and everything look trash. Even selene can look balanced on paper. Resto ult also looked trash before people tried it. PVP is not a controlled environment in case you havent noticed and the "anecdotal experiences" are facts. You actually admitted it by saying that mDK and templars can actually proc it on cd. Make up ur mind.
Like i said. Dodge is not a good mechanic as it is. But atm its what medium builds have. And implementing abilities, sets bypassing main defences is bad. Skoria not going through dodge is most certainly not a dead set. That is an absurd claim and then you are talking about bias. You are not just fighting medium armor builds. Selene is dodgeable too but its far from dead.
Yeah the does not scale with stats is BS argument. Since if it did, your issues with it would still be exactly the same.
RNG does not require skill, neither does spamming ults on CD. So whats the problem here? In second case you can get slightly better than bad at playing and will find better situations for ulti use than will rng proc ever give you.
There was no rise of bad players. Players are the same as they always were. Stacking several proc sets allowed to some stamblades to get advantage over better players that from honor decided to not run any proc set. But we are talking about single skoria arent we? If you die to some DK with skoria and you say he is bad and killed you because of free damage op proc set then you are the bad one.
Proc sest existed in this game for VERY LONG time. It was never issue until they started stacking itself.
Yes, fights do happen just on one bar. Plenty of bar swapping != you do damage with that bar. The most used offbars come from 1h+s/2h builds where they use 2H for gapcloser and execute. Offbar bow is used just to apply poison injection. People running shield as offbar are mostly using it just for block and rarely the stun. Offbar resto is never used for damage other than heavy attacks. And before you come here with your niche build that is running puncture and bash on your shield bar and then gapcloser, dizzy swing and executioner on your 2h bar. Congratulation, does not change your build is niche.
People saying numbers dont represent reality are just people that never bothered to work with them. You can make everything look OP in reality too, that is common trait of focusing on edge scenarios like you do now
Selene looks balanced on paper only when you think it is balanced ingame. The only difference is if you don't have data do make that decision (like how fast it hits, how big is the aoe, is it dodgeable or blockable)
Resto ult never looked like trash. Stop trying to plant public opinion as facts. The same people called destro ult trash when on paper it was strong and it would be strong in reality and it is now very strong after buffing it.
I never admitted templars and mdk can proc it on CD. Because that is impossible. I said close to on CD, because they can proc it faster than anyone else.
Who cares you aren't fighting just medium armor builds. Everybody can dodge and half the people are running evasion. If your proc set is useless vs third of player population it is useless proc set. And here given fair chance (like audible cue, or getting addon warning) everyone would dodge it unless they would think they are ok tanking it.
The does not scale argument is far from ***. Those procblades running around one shotting people have 25k stamina and 2k wpn dmg. Thats is prety much the definition of trash stats but their burst stays intact. Stop comparing the random proc doing the dmg for you with the usage of an ult that is dependant on ur stats and ur ability to keep ur buffs up and it has to be manually casted from and in most cases in the right way as well to get the most out of it. In the first case your gear does the dmg, in the second case you are doing the dmg. Your inability to realise the difference is astonishing. A proc hitting you from a good or bad player will be the same. A good player will use meteor at the right time and will fossilize you to make it land. A bad player is gonna open the fight with meteor without cc you effectively wasting the ult. Its not the same.
There was absolutely a rise of bad players due to procs. Procs remove skill from the game. The more you stack the better. Skoria can be stacked as well. And yes its free dmg. I played with just skoria on mDK. The difference in dmg is night and day. 1.5k spell dmg and less than 40k magicka and thats with cp. My dmg was still fine. I was just permablocking and stacking dots and let it rain. Skoria was always either the first or second in dmg and i didnt have to do anything.
You are not playing the same game you were playing a VERY LONG time ago. Sustain being more important now means not as easy to invest into dmg. Procs take care of your dmg. Just try playing in no CP.
No fights doesnt happen on just one bar. If you dont find it useful having enchant or poison on both bars then u are the bad player and not me with the niche build. Maybe u are zerging spamming one button and cant weave reliably. Either way, ur issue.
People saying numbers dont represent reality are not people that dont work with numbers. This is just a misconception you have for whatever reason. I work with numbers. I just prefer experience instead of letting numbers tell me what to do. PVP isnt a controlled environment. There a lot more variables than just using a calculator. Selene on live has 1 second delay and its dodgeable. Plenty of time to move out right? Wrong. You are not just gonna sit there and wait for a bear so u can roll. You are snared, rooted, stunned, lagged ambushed etc. Saying that skoria becomes trash if its dodgeable is focusing on one of those edge scenarios that u mentioned, in which you can make everything look OP or trash depending on ur preference. There are plenty of dodgeable abilities that u see them coming from miles away. They are not trash. And even if it doesnt become dodgeable, it still needs visual cues to make the existing counters actually reliable counters.
I would reply to you, but it would be same reply as before so just read it again. I literally argued to every point of yours and you only repeated them again.
I guess, there comes the l2p part, because if you struggle against single procs from bad players, you arent good.
FYI, variables are just a numbers. Don't blame numbers for your inability to work with better data. It is no one's problem but yours if you look at something and say yourself "it can kill you in one hit but it is very obvious and you can dodge it so its fine" without thinking of synergies with roots and CC or different impact on different builds.
btw how is dodge roll edge scenario, everybody is using dodge roll be it medium build or shield stacking sorc. If you give everyone chance to dodge roll skoria they will do it or make conscious decision not to. This is opposite of edge scenario. Edge scenario will be dodge roll builds not dodging it. Many dodgeable abilities that you can see from miles away are actually trash.
Not that I disagree with better visual cue on skoria or slightly less damage or slightly longer CD. But you keep making it bigger deal than it is, almost like skoria instead of falling from the sky once flew from the ground and touched some parts of you that never healed properly
The only one repeating the same crap over and over again is you. This whole argument started from ur inability to understand what i said and repeated the same things the other guy said.
And here comes the L2P argument. What a surprise. From a player putting procs and ult usage on the same category in terms of skill and from someone who doesnt see benefit from having enchants and poisons on both bars. The irony.
No variables are absolutely not always numbers. You are incredibly naive. That is actually the most stupid thing you said so far. Variables are not consistent and in this case you cant predict them. They will always alter ur scenario, you cant control it and the results change. Not everything is black and white. Not in this game and not outside of this game. Blindly following numbers wont do you any good. If you cant put ur numbers to the test and see for urself u are gonna have a bad time. If i want to build a house im gonna hire a civil engineer with experience that knows what the f*ck he is doing. Im not gonna hire someone freshed out of college because he can just crunch on numbers.
And yes saying that its going to be useless if it becomes dodgeable is absolutely an edge scenario that only happens in a controlled environment with limited variables in which you can guarantee the dodge roll 100% of the time. Open world is a different story. But judging by ur posts im not surprised that you cant tell the difference. If you dont want them to dodge it stun them. Skills, sets etc ignoring main defenses are bad for the game. Period. They remove counterplay and everything just boils down to numbers.
I guess we can agree to disagree. Its obvious that our views on prety much everything are fundamentally different. No point continuing this.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There´re two things about Skoria IMO. One thing is the "proc-off" cooldown argument, which I call more or less true.The other part is about the counter perspective with the set
Proc-off cooldown:
I did some tests with Skoria the other day (the pictures are somewhere here on the forum on another thread, just to lazy to find them at the moment) running my PvE setup. As a magDK in PvE you can run more DoT´s than you can in PvP. The DoT´s I ran on my DPS tests were:
- Elemental Blockade
- Engulfing Flames
- Burning Embers
- Burning Status Effect
- Rearming Trap
- Standard Of Might
- Eruption
Now some people say that Skoria procs off-cooldown all the time. The closest I got during my tests (posted 7 dps test in a forumposts, but did another 10 tests after that, which I didn´t post) was 1 Skoria proc every 7th second. Sure, I didn´t have 100% uptime on all my dots but that´s not realistic to think you will have in a PvP scenario either, at it´s easier to maintain more and higher uptime on DoT´s in PvE compared to PvP. My test doesn´t prove that Skoria can´t proc off-cooldown (once every 5-6 seconds), but to claim that It would proc more in PvP scenario (unless you´re RNGesus yourself) doesn´t sound legit to me. Now we´re mainly talking single target here, since that´s the easiest to test. Against multiple enemies if you manage to get your DoT´s on more enemies Skoria will probably proc more often. So in my opinion the procrate isn´t the biggest issue.
Counter Skoria:
This part is more interesting to discuss. ZOS has made some changes to some other monster-sets to open up for more counterplay. I think ZOS need to chose between 2 ways of (if the decide to change Skoria) changing Skoria:
- Make it dodgeable: Not a fan of that solution, but adding a ground aoe component (like with the meteor from Mages guild ultimate) could be a way of compensate for it being dodgeable
- Add some sort of sign who will get hit by the meteor: I personally like this more. It will make it easier to counter (aka block it) and it will also make it easier for the one using Skoria vs multiple enemies to know who to focus.
A third part is the damage of Skoria: Due to it´s procrate (comparing to other damagedealing sets) and condition to run DoT´s it´s quite balanced. As I said I think discussing the "Counter-part" of Skoria is more meaningful than to talk about how often it procs, without brining numbers, because at the end of the day, numbers are the only hard evidence ZOS can use to balance sets. Doesn´t matter how much you think something "should work", if you can´t back it up with nothing else but experience/feelings, ZOS can´t do much with it.
You can actually get the same number of dots in PVP as well. You may not be using blockade, trap or eruption but u are using talons, volatile, entropy. But thats not even the issue with the set. The counterplay is the issue. The AOE component can stay undodgeable like all AOE. But the single target dmg being dodgeable and visual cues are absolutely needed if we are talking about skilled counterplay.2 -
HiImRex✭✭✭✭✭Vercingetorix wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Vercingetorix wrote: »im just curious why valkyn is still an instant, unavoidable proc when all the others have been nerfed
Valkyn Skoria is not instant - it's delayed with a telegraphed rumble/noise as it gets ready to impact. One can easily ward up in response to the proc. If YOU have problems with Skoria, then that's YOUR problem. L2P and stop crying.
Nerfing something doesn't improve your gameplay - it just means you'll lose to something else.
You mean learn to play magicka since this proc removes counterplay from medium armor builds like so many other things in this game.
If you are using medium armor, then you shouldn't even be getting attacked by Skoria in the first place. Medium means you are ambushing your opponent form stealth - that is, your opponent isn't going to be fighting for very long if at all. Nerfing an armor set because you foolishly engage an enemy out in the open without cover or a group to support you is ridiculous.
The counterplay to ANYTHING while wearing medium armor is to simply not get hit: Dodge, Gank, or Die - make your choice.
Ugh will shitters please stop giving balance feedbacks it's disgusting. Not calling you out specifically you're one of the many here.4 -
afonik✭✭✭The main reasons ppl want Skoria nerfed are: Horvantud the Fire Maw and Ash Titan :P
The most difficult dungeons should provide the best monster mask. It makes sense, doesn't it?1 -
paulsimonps wrote: »So just did a little test with Tremorscale, unless the target is standing perfectly still, or is already severly snared, you can just walk out of it like its nothing, easiest thing in the world to dodge now. And since most people are in constant movement in fights this set now demands you to use Roots or knock downs before use or you will miss 100% of the time.
Thanks for testing. Sad to hear Tremorscale will get this slight drawback in the next patch; it's my favorite monster set!
Edited by TheNeckerCube on August 3, 2017 7:43PMPC/NA
Skjall of Skellige0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why do ppl list blocking as a valid way to mitigate dmg as a medium armor build? Yea blocking here and there is fine, but to actually mitigate most and a sufficient amount of the incoming dmg that is undodgeable, you end up completely turning off something that is numero uno important for medium armor builds..stamina regen.
PC EU
PvP only2 -
LadyLethalla✭✭✭✭✭
✭With the nerf hammer hitting Green Pact, Plague Doc AND Spriggans that's essentially wasted weeks of my time farming the crap. Anyone want to bet that Necro and Netch will both get a nerf before the end of the year? ZOS's current MO seems to be "it's popular, nerf it!"
"Balance changes" my posterior.
It's very easy to say "just get TFS instead" - the time I can actually participate in Trials is limited to weekends and the disconnections make it a very painful experience.
I loved ESO but with all these nerfs, bang one after the other this year and the ever-increasing lag, most of the fun's gone - and I can't see it returning.
x-TallyCat-x // PC EU DC - For the Covenant! // ESO Platinum trophy - 16th May 2017.
Melbourne Australia - the land of Potato Internet.WTB ESO OCEANIC SERVER3 -
WhiteCoatSyndrome✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Glad to see they fixed the Indoril banners. #proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
A useful explanation for how RNG works
PC/NA ROLLBACKS AND BAN NOTIFICATIONS ANNOUNCEMENT.1 -
BigES✭✭✭✭✭I've ran Amberplasm since it released, well before it was on most people's radar. Fortunately, I've moved on to other builds, but its sad to see this set get bullied without good reason.
Amberplasm is a mediocre 5-piece magicka recovery set. Yes, it is decent, and worth using currently. But in the current sustain patch, 300 magicka recovery is just enough to make it worth it, considering it is essentially a sustain set exclusively for a magicka classes. Yes, the 300 stamina recovery is nice, but its complete overkill in most situations. You're not getting 600 total useable recovery on a magicka character. We don't use our stamina like stamina classes use their magicka (constant utility and stamina regen spamming). Magicka class stamina pools are for CC, and the occasional emergency block. Realistically, you're getting more like 450 total usable recovery out of the current set (300 magicka + 150 stamina). You wouldn't notice the slightest difference if you were running Shacklebreaker with129 regen, or Bloodspawn with the 129 regen. Especially with vampirism, and especially with CP front-loading making Mooncalf very accessible. With the current nerf, you're getting more like 400 total usable recovery (250 magicka + 150 stamina). Hardly worth it.
Nerfing it to 250 makes it a sub-average magicka sustain set. Yes, you get stamina regen, But you haven't even begun to cover your magicka sustain needs. Any logical person with end-game PvP experience with magicka classes would choose Lich or any number of superior magicka sustain options over wasting 5-pieces on this set.
Rest In Peace, Amberplasm. The forum meta chasers got their way with you.4 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyone tested Spiggan's Thorns yet? I'm dying to find out how bad/good the changes to it are0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@BigES
You're forgetting all the regen modifiers that boost the value of Amberplasm. Especially on NBs its a great set because they passively get 15% regen bonus. Besides that, you have racial passives and CP to further boost the regen value.
Stam regen isnt just for breaking free and the occational block, you also want to be able to dodge roll and sprint every now and then.
The benefit for Amberplasm over Lich is that the 5pc bonus is always active and gives both stam and mag regen. Lich gives about 1k regen for 20s with a cooldown of 60s. On average that 330 mag regen if you proc it on CD. I'd take 250 stam and mag regen over that without a doubt.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer1 -
afonik✭✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »@BigES
You're forgetting all the regen modifiers that boost the value of Amberplasm. Especially on NBs its a great set because they passively get 15% regen bonus. Besides that, you have racial passives and CP to further boost the regen value.
Stam regen isnt just for breaking free and the occational block, you also want to be able to dodge roll and sprint every now and then.
The benefit for Amberplasm over Lich is that the 5pc bonus is always active and gives both stam and mag regen. Lich gives about 1k regen for 20s with a cooldown of 60s. On average that 330 mag regen if you proc it on CD. I'd take 250 stam and mag regen over that without a doubt.
I agree with you but Amber must be slotted at both bars to get that regen at all times and Lich can be only at backbar to proc and the 20s will be active despite the bar you are.2 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »So just did a little test with Tremorscale, unless the target is standing perfectly still, or is already severly snared, you can just walk out of it like its nothing, easiest thing in the world to dodge now. And since most people are in constant movement in fights this set now demands you to use Roots or knock downs before use or you will miss 100% of the time.
This news makes me very happy...
Unyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »@BigES
You're forgetting all the regen modifiers that boost the value of Amberplasm. Especially on NBs its a great set because they passively get 15% regen bonus. Besides that, you have racial passives and CP to further boost the regen value.
Stam regen isnt just for breaking free and the occational block, you also want to be able to dodge roll and sprint every now and then.
The benefit for Amberplasm over Lich is that the 5pc bonus is always active and gives both stam and mag regen. Lich gives about 1k regen for 20s with a cooldown of 60s. On average that 330 mag regen if you proc it on CD. I'd take 250 stam and mag regen over that without a doubt.
I agree with you but Amber must be slotted at both bars to get that regen at all times and Lich can be only at backbar to proc and the 20s will be active despite the bar you are.
Thats true, it does open a slot for gear on the front bar. This is the main advantage of Lich because you can run another 5 piece and monster set.
Lich definitely has it uses but in general I'd prefer 250 stam regen over a 2nd monster piece in pvp.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer1 -
BigES✭✭✭✭✭Septimus_Magna wrote: »@BigES
You're forgetting all the regen modifiers that boost the value of Amberplasm. Especially on NBs its a great set because they passively get 15% regen bonus. Besides that, you have racial passives and CP to further boost the regen value.
Stam regen isnt just for breaking free and the occational block, you also want to be able to dodge roll and sprint every now and then.
The benefit for Amberplasm over Lich is that the 5pc bonus is always active and gives both stam and mag regen. Lich gives about 1k regen for 20s with a cooldown of 60s. On average that 330 mag regen if you proc it on CD. I'd take 250 stam and mag regen over that without a doubt.
No, I"m not forgetting them. Those are base modifiers available to all magicka recovery sets.
Dodge rolling and sprinting on a magicka character is almost always a death sentence.
I'm aware how they both work. But sets like Lich offers 129 recovery in both the 2-piece and 4-piece slot. Amberplasm is a PvP set and offers critical, which isn't useless, but probably the weakest trait you could ask for on a set.
You aren't going to solve your magicka sustain issues with 250 recovery. Lich can fully cover you. Running Heavy Armor + Resto heavy attacks can fully cover you. With Amberplasm, you now have to start thinking about running Atronoch, swapping jewelry... other choices that simply will draw down your damage.
Again, yes, the stamina regen is nice, but its an afterthought for an end-game magicka PvP player in the current sustain patch.
250 recovery makes this set go from "an interesting choice" to "why would you"?0 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭I've ran Amberplasm since it released, well before it was on most people's radar. Fortunately, I've moved on to other builds, but its sad to see this set get bullied without good reason.
Amberplasm is a mediocre 5-piece magicka recovery set. Yes, it is decent, and worth using currently. But in the current sustain patch, 300 magicka recovery is just enough to make it worth it, considering it is essentially a sustain set exclusively for a magicka classes. Yes, the 300 stamina recovery is nice, but its complete overkill in most situations. You're not getting 600 total useable recovery on a magicka character. We don't use our stamina like stamina classes use their magicka (constant utility and stamina regen spamming). Magicka class stamina pools are for CC, and the occasional emergency block. Realistically, you're getting more like 450 total usable recovery out of the current set (300 magicka + 150 stamina). You wouldn't notice the slightest difference if you were running Shacklebreaker with129 regen, or Bloodspawn with the 129 regen. Especially with vampirism, and especially with CP front-loading making Mooncalf very accessible. With the current nerf, you're getting more like 400 total usable recovery (250 magicka + 150 stamina). Hardly worth it.
Nerfing it to 250 makes it a sub-average magicka sustain set. Yes, you get stamina regen, But you haven't even begun to cover your magicka sustain needs. Any logical person with end-game PvP experience with magicka classes would choose Lich or any number of superior magicka sustain options over wasting 5-pieces on this set.
Rest In Peace, Amberplasm. The forum meta chasers got their way with you.
I think the nerf to Amberplasm wasn't done the way it should have been. All they saw was an over performing set (arguably only overperorming on Magicka Sorc) and decided to nerf it. If you consider other sets in this niche, Amberplasm should retain 300 Magicka recovery but have the Stamina recovery reduced to ~150.
Lets compare it to Willow's Path and Bloodthorn:
Willow's Path: IMO this should be the ONLY set that gives equal mag/stam/(health) regen. Does the same thing as Amberplasm but requires you to sacrifice a food buff and/or stack regen to be more effective.
Bloodthorn: often seen as the poor mans Amberplasm but has the benefit of being able to off-bar and still retain maximum effect. Is not affected by regen passives.
If we compare Bloodthorn and Amberplasm, they are actually balanced against each other. Both have their own niches where they shine, it just so happens Amberplasm is meta. But if we consider Amberplasm and Willow's Path we see some awkward overlap. Amberplasm can outperform WP both in terms of regen and opportunity cost where WP should outshine. IMO Amberplasm should be a Magicka dedicated set, ergo retain 300 Magicka regen and provide supplementary Stam regen (150). It is after all a light armor set.
Willow's Path should be THE sustain set whereas Amberplasm is a good sustain set that is focused on Magicka. Bloodthorn could use a buff imo (only 50 or so). There is another set that IMO will outperform all 3 of these come next patch but that's for my own personal exploits
As a Magicka Sorc main, this change will reduce Amberplasms synergy with Dark Exchange. I also think Dark Exchange should freeze the secondary resource regen for 4 seconds. But thats a separate topic
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