Balance patch incoming! Don't forget about bow!

ZOS_GinaBruno

Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.

rfennell_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.

The main problem is the fact that a fair number of people have a on screen warning they are being shot at.

What type of game play is that... when you see people dodge rolling before you even hit them?

DDuke

FakeFox wrote: »

Bow is in a good place in my opinion, having very strong dots for PvE and high range and burst damage in PvP. In PvE bow buffs could lead to stamina becoming too strong in pure DPS, never the less Bow will never work as a main weapon.

You say "bow is in a good place" and then shortly after contradict yourself with: "it will never work as a main weapon".

Pick one.


Also, if you consider bow to have "high burst damage" in PvP, I have a bridge to sell you.

Bow burst is 10-15k tops on a non-blocking squishy target currently, with DW & 2H you can deal more than twice that.

Not only that, bow burst is also impossible to land on a good player due to long travel time.


But hey, you might kill some afk siege potatoes with it.

FakeFox wrote: »

The reason is that stamina chars need to be melee to have a good rotation with enough dots to be effective.

No, the reason why stamina chars need to be melee in PvE/PvP is that they deal garbage damage with skills when on the bow bar. Bow actually has the strongest DoTs (PI & Endless Hail), which is precisely why in PvE you apply those & swap bar asap - because your other damage is not on par.

You can get the same DPS by spamming bow light attacks (with Poisonous Serpent set) than you do by doing Snipe->LA->Snipe->etc

Let that sink in for a minute as you realize how garbage skill Snipe is.

FakeFox wrote: »

If you use a bow as your frontbar weapon you would need to use a twohander or dual wield on the backbar, which forces you into meele again.

Why? If bow was a viable front bar weapon, you could use DW/2H for buffs (just like bow is mostly used at the moment). Rally, Deadly/Quick Cloak & class buffs still provide plenty of reason to use 2H/DW.

In fact, using 2H is almost mandatory for any stamina build besides Wardens for one simple reason: instant heal (Rally).

FakeFox wrote: »

In PvP snipe and poison injection are already very strong, combining high range with the movement of stamina Bow is a more then viable mainweapon.

Poison Injection is useful, I wouldn't call it strong (it gets shuffled/dodged/purged far too often). Snipe is garbage.

The +movement speed passive from Bow skill line is sometimes useful, but doesn't last long (and requires dodge rolling, which is a useless defense mechanic in most fights where undodgeable skills are everywhere).

And since when is "high range" some kind of awesome bonus? This game has spammable gap closers, spammable roots, spammable snares - "range" does not exist if your opponents know anything about this game.


Bow is not, I repeat, not a viable main weapon. A person who uses bow as main weapon is a walking AP piñata.

Just wtf.

FakeFox wrote: »

If you know what you are doing you can already oneshot a lot of people and that with a setup that has a 30% speedbuff, can sprint/sneak forever and dodge all day long. If such a build could do the same constant damage as melee setup it would be straight up broken.

With bow, the only ones you can oneshot are afk siege potatoes. Or people who are getting Xv1'd.


Please show me one good bow build (not DW or 2H build with bow as off bar), a video, stream - whatever. I'll wait.

Kilandros

The Risk-Reward ratio is already completely over the top with Bow. I can't go anywhere without being bombarded (no pun intended) by bow abilities.

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

The Risk-Reward ratio is already completely over the top with Bow. I can't go anywhere without being bombarded (no pun intended) by bow abilities.

I can't go anywhere without getting Soul Assaulted either.

The difference is, you don't die from anything that a bow user throws at you (unless you're bad at this game).

Toc de Malsvi

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.

Thank you for the response. It is disappponting. However at the same time somewhat encouraging to hear that at least someone is looking at it.

DDuke

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.

Are you able to say if there'll be any changes to medium armor this patch? It kind of relates (indirectly) to a lot of the issues bow currently has - I posted a thread about it a couple weeks ago.

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

The Risk-Reward ratio is already completely over the top with Bow. I can't go anywhere without being bombarded (no pun intended) by bow abilities.

I can't go anywhere without getting Soul Assaulted either.

The difference is, you don't die from anything that a bow user throws at you (unless you're bad at this game).

I'm not sure why you're comparing Ultimates to Bow abilities. Care to expand on that analogy?

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

The Risk-Reward ratio is already completely over the top with Bow. I can't go anywhere without being bombarded (no pun intended) by bow abilities.

I can't go anywhere without getting Soul Assaulted either.

The difference is, you don't die from anything that a bow user throws at you (unless you're bad at this game).

I'm not sure why you're comparing Ultimates to Bow abilities. Care to expand on that analogy?

Well, I can't go anywhere without getting cursed, bird spammed & jesus beamed either.

Happy now?


We can compare bow ulti (50k over 3,5 seconds, dodgeable) & Soul Assault (100k over 3.5 seconds, undodgeable, uncloakable) though if you want.

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Bow is in a good place in my opinion, having very strong dots for PvE and high range and burst damage in PvP. In PvE bow buffs could lead to stamina becoming too strong in pure DPS, never the less Bow will never work as a main weapon.

You say "bow is in a good place" and then shortly after contradict yourself with: "it will never work as a main weapon".

Pick one.


Also, if you consider bow to have "high burst damage" in PvP, I have a bridge to sell you.

Bow burst is 10-15k tops on a non-blocking squishy target currently, with DW & 2H you can deal more than twice that.

Not only that, bow burst is also impossible to land on a good player due to long travel time.


But hey, you might kill some afk siege potatoes with it.

FakeFox wrote: »

The reason is that stamina chars need to be melee to have a good rotation with enough dots to be effective.

No, the reason why stamina chars need to be melee in PvE/PvP is that they deal garbage damage with skills when on the bow bar. Bow actually has the strongest DoTs (PI & Endless Hail), which is precisely why in PvE you apply those & swap bar asap - because your other damage is not on par.

You can get the same DPS by spamming bow light attacks (with Poisonous Serpent set) than you do by doing Snipe->LA->Snipe->etc

Let that sink in for a minute as you realize how garbage skill Snipe is.

FakeFox wrote: »

If you use a bow as your frontbar weapon you would need to use a twohander or dual wield on the backbar, which forces you into meele again.

Why? If bow was a viable front bar weapon, you could use DW/2H for buffs (just like bow is mostly used at the moment). Rally, Deadly/Quick Cloak & class buffs still provide plenty of reason to use 2H/DW.

In fact, using 2H is almost mandatory for any stamina build besides Wardens for one simple reason: instant heal (Rally).

FakeFox wrote: »

In PvP snipe and poison injection are already very strong, combining high range with the movement of stamina Bow is a more then viable mainweapon.

Poison Injection is useful, I wouldn't call it strong (it gets shuffled/dodged/purged far too often). Snipe is garbage.

The +movement speed passive from Bow skill line is sometimes useful, but doesn't last long (and requires dodge rolling, which is a useless defense mechanic in most fights where undodgeable skills are everywhere).

And since when is "high range" some kind of awesome bonus? This game has spammable gap closers, spammable roots, spammable snares - "range" does not exist if your opponents know anything about this game.


Bow is not, I repeat, not a viable main weapon. A person who uses bow as main weapon is a walking AP piñata.

Just wtf.

FakeFox wrote: »

If you know what you are doing you can already oneshot a lot of people and that with a setup that has a 30% speedbuff, can sprint/sneak forever and dodge all day long. If such a build could do the same constant damage as melee setup it would be straight up broken.

With bow, the only ones you can oneshot are afk siege potatoes. Or people who are getting Xv1'd.


Please show me one good bow build (not DW or 2H build with bow as off bar), a video, stream - whatever. I'll wait.

Wow, I just read this and here are the cliff's note:

1: Poison Injection "isn't strong" (lol)

2: Dodge Roll is a "useless defense mechanics" (LOLOL)

Hate it say it, but you need to L2P

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Bow is in a good place in my opinion, having very strong dots for PvE and high range and burst damage in PvP. In PvE bow buffs could lead to stamina becoming too strong in pure DPS, never the less Bow will never work as a main weapon.

You say "bow is in a good place" and then shortly after contradict yourself with: "it will never work as a main weapon".

Pick one.


Also, if you consider bow to have "high burst damage" in PvP, I have a bridge to sell you.

Bow burst is 10-15k tops on a non-blocking squishy target currently, with DW & 2H you can deal more than twice that.

Not only that, bow burst is also impossible to land on a good player due to long travel time.


But hey, you might kill some afk siege potatoes with it.

FakeFox wrote: »

The reason is that stamina chars need to be melee to have a good rotation with enough dots to be effective.

No, the reason why stamina chars need to be melee in PvE/PvP is that they deal garbage damage with skills when on the bow bar. Bow actually has the strongest DoTs (PI & Endless Hail), which is precisely why in PvE you apply those & swap bar asap - because your other damage is not on par.

You can get the same DPS by spamming bow light attacks (with Poisonous Serpent set) than you do by doing Snipe->LA->Snipe->etc

Let that sink in for a minute as you realize how garbage skill Snipe is.

FakeFox wrote: »

If you use a bow as your frontbar weapon you would need to use a twohander or dual wield on the backbar, which forces you into meele again.

Why? If bow was a viable front bar weapon, you could use DW/2H for buffs (just like bow is mostly used at the moment). Rally, Deadly/Quick Cloak & class buffs still provide plenty of reason to use 2H/DW.

In fact, using 2H is almost mandatory for any stamina build besides Wardens for one simple reason: instant heal (Rally).

FakeFox wrote: »

In PvP snipe and poison injection are already very strong, combining high range with the movement of stamina Bow is a more then viable mainweapon.

Poison Injection is useful, I wouldn't call it strong (it gets shuffled/dodged/purged far too often). Snipe is garbage.

The +movement speed passive from Bow skill line is sometimes useful, but doesn't last long (and requires dodge rolling, which is a useless defense mechanic in most fights where undodgeable skills are everywhere).

And since when is "high range" some kind of awesome bonus? This game has spammable gap closers, spammable roots, spammable snares - "range" does not exist if your opponents know anything about this game.


Bow is not, I repeat, not a viable main weapon. A person who uses bow as main weapon is a walking AP piñata.

Just wtf.

FakeFox wrote: »

If you know what you are doing you can already oneshot a lot of people and that with a setup that has a 30% speedbuff, can sprint/sneak forever and dodge all day long. If such a build could do the same constant damage as melee setup it would be straight up broken.

With bow, the only ones you can oneshot are afk siege potatoes. Or people who are getting Xv1'd.


Please show me one good bow build (not DW or 2H build with bow as off bar), a video, stream - whatever. I'll wait.

Wow, I just read this and here are the cliff's note:

1: Poison Injection "isn't strong" (lol)

2: Dodge Roll is a "useless defense mechanics" (LOLOL)

Hate it say it, but you need to L2P

"lol" is a very compelling argument.

I don't think you read my post at all, and if you did you skipped the parts explaining why.


Feel free to prove me wrong though.


Oh, and I think I've farmed all three of your characters on multiple occasions on both my stamblade & magicka templar. You're one of the zerglings aren't you? Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Bow is in a good place in my opinion, having very strong dots for PvE and high range and burst damage in PvP. In PvE bow buffs could lead to stamina becoming too strong in pure DPS, never the less Bow will never work as a main weapon.

You say "bow is in a good place" and then shortly after contradict yourself with: "it will never work as a main weapon".

Pick one.


Also, if you consider bow to have "high burst damage" in PvP, I have a bridge to sell you.

Bow burst is 10-15k tops on a non-blocking squishy target currently, with DW & 2H you can deal more than twice that.

Not only that, bow burst is also impossible to land on a good player due to long travel time.


But hey, you might kill some afk siege potatoes with it.

FakeFox wrote: »

The reason is that stamina chars need to be melee to have a good rotation with enough dots to be effective.

No, the reason why stamina chars need to be melee in PvE/PvP is that they deal garbage damage with skills when on the bow bar. Bow actually has the strongest DoTs (PI & Endless Hail), which is precisely why in PvE you apply those & swap bar asap - because your other damage is not on par.

You can get the same DPS by spamming bow light attacks (with Poisonous Serpent set) than you do by doing Snipe->LA->Snipe->etc

Let that sink in for a minute as you realize how garbage skill Snipe is.

FakeFox wrote: »

If you use a bow as your frontbar weapon you would need to use a twohander or dual wield on the backbar, which forces you into meele again.

Why? If bow was a viable front bar weapon, you could use DW/2H for buffs (just like bow is mostly used at the moment). Rally, Deadly/Quick Cloak & class buffs still provide plenty of reason to use 2H/DW.

In fact, using 2H is almost mandatory for any stamina build besides Wardens for one simple reason: instant heal (Rally).

FakeFox wrote: »

In PvP snipe and poison injection are already very strong, combining high range with the movement of stamina Bow is a more then viable mainweapon.

Poison Injection is useful, I wouldn't call it strong (it gets shuffled/dodged/purged far too often). Snipe is garbage.

The +movement speed passive from Bow skill line is sometimes useful, but doesn't last long (and requires dodge rolling, which is a useless defense mechanic in most fights where undodgeable skills are everywhere).

And since when is "high range" some kind of awesome bonus? This game has spammable gap closers, spammable roots, spammable snares - "range" does not exist if your opponents know anything about this game.


Bow is not, I repeat, not a viable main weapon. A person who uses bow as main weapon is a walking AP piñata.

Just wtf.

FakeFox wrote: »

If you know what you are doing you can already oneshot a lot of people and that with a setup that has a 30% speedbuff, can sprint/sneak forever and dodge all day long. If such a build could do the same constant damage as melee setup it would be straight up broken.

With bow, the only ones you can oneshot are afk siege potatoes. Or people who are getting Xv1'd.


Please show me one good bow build (not DW or 2H build with bow as off bar), a video, stream - whatever. I'll wait.

Wow, I just read this and here are the cliff's note:

1: Poison Injection "isn't strong" (lol)

2: Dodge Roll is a "useless defense mechanics" (LOLOL)

Hate it say it, but you need to L2P

"lol" is a very compelling argument.

I don't think you read my post at all, and if you did you skipped the parts explaining why.


Feel free to prove me wrong though.


Oh, and I think I've farmed all three of your characters on multiple occasions on both my stamblade & magicka templar. You're one of the zerglings aren't you?

Are you Iskra

Thelon

I'm just here for the lols

Solariken

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all your feedback on this, everyone; we've passed this thread along to the team to review. That said, if we were to make any adjustments to Bow, it's safe to assume they wouldn't be in Update 15 (in August) as there wouldn't be enough time to thoroughly test with all the other balance changes. Let's get this next update out first, then we can re-assess.

Thanks @ZOS_GinaBruno!

There would certainly be some very minor changes they could make without affecting big-picture balance.

Can we at least get a range increase on Scatter Shot? There are already several other ranged CC's that are stronger than SS. 10 meters is just cruel, especially when gap closer range is more than double that!

Durham

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw? They have the distinct advantage of aoe dots and being ranged.

1. Both 2H & DW have significantly stronger AoE DoTs, ones with strong effects that actually make them worth slotting (Carve, Deadly/Quick Cloak, Rend).
2. There is no real advantage of "being ranged", it just means attacks are more telegraphed and easier to dodge due to travel times.
3. Half the magicka builds out there are ranged and deal same (or more) dmg than melee builds - why should bow be any different?
4. There's already a passive to balance it out (Long Shots), which makes sure you can't deal full damage unless you're at maximum range - which means that there's an advantage for melee builds when they're close up.
5. Gap closers. No cooldowns.
6. Inability to effectively CC your opponent to kite them, due to cooldownless CC break & CC immunity (root immunity after dodge roll too).
7. Lack of strong Area Denial like mines to prevent opponents from spamming gap closers & staying in melee 24/7 if they want to.

Sorry...

Poison injection one of the best skills in pvp..
Lethal arrow delves for as much as wreaking blow...and allows you do it from saftey... Miats hurts this ability honestly ...

On my bow snipe Night Blade I kill easily mostly potatoes tho ... Why because most PVP players now run miats... They are avoiding my primary damage...

I do not want to die in two shots from a player I can't see and can't defend from ...that sucks ..you hold up block to mitigate while scanning to see where it's coming from then only to see them Dark Cloak before you can get to them ... then you start back on your way... then bam they hit you again ... hence repeat...

I think bow snipers want headshot style PVP like in dps games .. If you impliment that in a mmo it bad for business.. people build their characters in mmo's and have attachment to them... Even ZOS does not like this hence why e verytime a trick is discovered to Insta kill someone it gets nerfed.....

DDuke

Durham wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw? They have the distinct advantage of aoe dots and being ranged.

1. Both 2H & DW have significantly stronger AoE DoTs, ones with strong effects that actually make them worth slotting (Carve, Deadly/Quick Cloak, Rend).
2. There is no real advantage of "being ranged", it just means attacks are more telegraphed and easier to dodge due to travel times.
3. Half the magicka builds out there are ranged and deal same (or more) dmg than melee builds - why should bow be any different?
4. There's already a passive to balance it out (Long Shots), which makes sure you can't deal full damage unless you're at maximum range - which means that there's an advantage for melee builds when they're close up.
5. Gap closers. No cooldowns.
6. Inability to effectively CC your opponent to kite them, due to cooldownless CC break & CC immunity (root immunity after dodge roll too).
7. Lack of strong Area Denial like mines to prevent opponents from spamming gap closers & staying in melee 24/7 if they want to.

Sorry...

Poison injection one of the best skills in pvp..
Lethal arrow delves for as much as wreaking blow...and allows you do it from saftey... Miats hurts this ability honestly ...

On my bow snipe Night Blade I kill easily mostly potatoes tho ... Why because most PVP players now run miats... They are avoiding my primary damage...

I do not want to die in two shots from a player I can't see and can't defend from ...that sucks ..you hold up block to mitigate while scanning to see where it's coming from then only to see them Dark Cloak before you can get to them ... then you start back on your way... then bam they hit you again ... hence repeat...

I think bow snipers want headshot style PVP like in dps games .. If you impliment that in a mmo it bad for business.. people build their characters in mmo's and have attachment to them... Even ZOS does not like this hence why e verytime a trick is discovered to Insta kill someone it gets nerfed.....

Fixed the formating for you, it was bugged.


So, let's see:

Poison injection one of the best skills in pvp..

There are a lot of skills in PvP. It's good and definitely worth slotting if you use bow, but it's not that phenomenal that you are "compelled to" use bow as stamina build.

Many stamina builds these days go 2H/DW instead just to stack bleeds, while most are "compelled to" use 2H for the instant heal.

I've personally made even DW/DW work very well in the past.

Lethal arrow delves for as much as wreaking blow...and allows you do it from saftey... Miats hurts this ability honestly ...

Wrecking Blow is kind of a joke, but yes, the damage is equal to Wrecking Blow (or hard casted Crystal Frags) if you wear 5x Marksman.

Your chance of actually landing it however is even less than the chance of landing a Wrecking Blow (already impossible vs other stam builds, which is why it doesn't see much play). Trying to land a Snipe is like hard casting Crystal Frags, except even worse.

The difficulty of landing a Snipe has less to do with Miat (though it of course makes it even worse & that addon should be banned imo), but more with the obvious audio/visual cues it has.

Snipe was bad long before Miat ever existed, because good players just dodge/block the snipe upon hearing the audio cue/seeing the arrow, and those who don't aren't even dead to the Snipe combo anymore as the damage is lackluster at best for the following reasons:

• There's no follow up damage at all. The next Snipe will take 1s+ to land and bow light attacks inbetween don't deal much damage at all.
• No strong proc sets for extra burst damage, besides Poisonous Serpent (about to be nerfed next patch). DW/2H builds get Viper (or Poisonous Serpent) and/or Red Mountain and Selene for much, much higher burst.

Just compare Snipe burst to Cloak->Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack(stun if you do it correctly)->Incap+some procs.
The melee burst is on a whole another universe.


Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill, and when you could land combos with it (e.g. Haste(no longer exists)->Snipe(had 3s cast time & more dmg)->Heavy Attack (you could charge full heavy & shoot it before Snipe landed)+Poison Injection - Heavy Attack would stun the opponent & all of them landed at the same time -> RIP.

No longer possible - you just have a spammable, easily dodged/blocked/shielded bow skill but absolutely no good follow up damage.


Now, I don't say Snipe should be like it used to be ("headshot style PvP") - but it should be worth using atleast, changed to something different that works in PvP & PvE. Just like Crystal Frags are worth using for sorcs.


The reason snipers currently just snipe->cloak & hide is because they know they can't kill most people - if they had a fighting chance they'd fight & try to win.

Xsorus

DDuke wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw? They have the distinct advantage of aoe dots and being ranged.

1. Both 2H & DW have significantly stronger AoE DoTs, ones with strong effects that actually make them worth slotting (Carve, Deadly/Quick Cloak, Rend).
2. There is no real advantage of "being ranged", it just means attacks are more telegraphed and easier to dodge due to travel times.
3. Half the magicka builds out there are ranged and deal same (or more) dmg than melee builds - why should bow be any different?
4. There's already a passive to balance it out (Long Shots), which makes sure you can't deal full damage unless you're at maximum range - which means that there's an advantage for melee builds when they're close up.
5. Gap closers. No cooldowns.
6. Inability to effectively CC your opponent to kite them, due to cooldownless CC break & CC immunity (root immunity after dodge roll too).
7. Lack of strong Area Denial like mines to prevent opponents from spamming gap closers & staying in melee 24/7 if they want to.

Sorry...

Poison injection one of the best skills in pvp..
Lethal arrow delves for as much as wreaking blow...and allows you do it from saftey... Miats hurts this ability honestly ...

On my bow snipe Night Blade I kill easily mostly potatoes tho ... Why because most PVP players now run miats... They are avoiding my primary damage...

I do not want to die in two shots from a player I can't see and can't defend from ...that sucks ..you hold up block to mitigate while scanning to see where it's coming from then only to see them Dark Cloak before you can get to them ... then you start back on your way... then bam they hit you again ... hence repeat...

I think bow snipers want headshot style PVP like in dps games .. If you impliment that in a mmo it bad for business.. people build their characters in mmo's and have attachment to them... Even ZOS does not like this hence why e verytime a trick is discovered to Insta kill someone it gets nerfed.....

Fixed the formating for you, it was bugged.


So, let's see:

Poison injection one of the best skills in pvp..

There are a lot of skills in PvP. It's good and definitely worth slotting if you use bow, but it's not that phenomenal that you are "compelled to" use bow as stamina build.

Many stamina builds these days go 2H/DW instead just to stack bleeds, while most are "compelled to" use 2H for the instant heal.

I've personally made even DW/DW work very well in the past.

Lethal arrow delves for as much as wreaking blow...and allows you do it from saftey... Miats hurts this ability honestly ...

Wrecking Blow is kind of a joke, but yes, the damage is equal to Wrecking Blow (or hard casted Crystal Frags) if you wear 5x Marksman.

Your chance of actually landing it however is even less than the chance of landing a Wrecking Blow (already impossible vs other stam builds, which is why it doesn't see much play). Trying to land a Snipe is like hard casting Crystal Frags, except even worse.

The difficulty of landing a Snipe has less to do with Miat (though it of course makes it even worse & that addon should be banned imo), but more with the obvious audio/visual cues it has.

Snipe was bad long before Miat ever existed, because good players just dodge/block the snipe upon hearing the audio cue/seeing the arrow, and those who don't aren't even dead to the Snipe combo anymore as the damage is lackluster at best for the following reasons:

• There's no follow up damage at all. The next Snipe will take 1s+ to land and bow light attacks inbetween don't deal much damage at all.
• No strong proc sets for extra burst damage, besides Poisonous Serpent (about to be nerfed next patch). DW/2H builds get Viper (or Poisonous Serpent) and/or Red Mountain and Selene for much, much higher burst.

Just compare Snipe burst to Cloak->Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack(stun if you do it correctly)->Incap+some procs.
The melee burst is on a whole another universe.


Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill, and when you could land combos with it (e.g. Haste(no longer exists)->Snipe(had 3s cast time & more dmg)->Heavy Attack (you could charge full heavy & shoot it before Snipe landed)+Poison Injection - Heavy Attack would stun the opponent & all of them landed at the same time -> RIP.

No longer possible - you just have a spammable, easily dodged/blocked/shielded bow skill but absolutely no good follow up damage.


Now, I don't say Snipe should be like it used to be ("headshot style PvP") - but it should be worth using atleast, changed to something different that works in PvP & PvE. Just like Crystal Frags are worth using for sorcs.


The reason snipers currently just snipe->cloak & hide is because they know they can't kill most people - if they had a fighting chance they'd fight & try to win.

You can still do the combo of Snipe/Ambush/Incap/Surprise Attack if you're a Nightblade

Still Nasty as ever...Miats kills your chance against landing it though against most people.

DDuke

Xsorus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw? They have the distinct advantage of aoe dots and being ranged.

1. Both 2H & DW have significantly stronger AoE DoTs, ones with strong effects that actually make them worth slotting (Carve, Deadly/Quick Cloak, Rend).
2. There is no real advantage of "being ranged", it just means attacks are more telegraphed and easier to dodge due to travel times.
3. Half the magicka builds out there are ranged and deal same (or more) dmg than melee builds - why should bow be any different?
4. There's already a passive to balance it out (Long Shots), which makes sure you can't deal full damage unless you're at maximum range - which means that there's an advantage for melee builds when they're close up.
5. Gap closers. No cooldowns.
6. Inability to effectively CC your opponent to kite them, due to cooldownless CC break & CC immunity (root immunity after dodge roll too).
7. Lack of strong Area Denial like mines to prevent opponents from spamming gap closers & staying in melee 24/7 if they want to.

Sorry...

Poison injection one of the best skills in pvp..
Lethal arrow delves for as much as wreaking blow...and allows you do it from saftey... Miats hurts this ability honestly ...

On my bow snipe Night Blade I kill easily mostly potatoes tho ... Why because most PVP players now run miats... They are avoiding my primary damage...

I do not want to die in two shots from a player I can't see and can't defend from ...that sucks ..you hold up block to mitigate while scanning to see where it's coming from then only to see them Dark Cloak before you can get to them ... then you start back on your way... then bam they hit you again ... hence repeat...

I think bow snipers want headshot style PVP like in dps games .. If you impliment that in a mmo it bad for business.. people build their characters in mmo's and have attachment to them... Even ZOS does not like this hence why e verytime a trick is discovered to Insta kill someone it gets nerfed.....

Fixed the formating for you, it was bugged.


So, let's see:

Poison injection one of the best skills in pvp..

There are a lot of skills in PvP. It's good and definitely worth slotting if you use bow, but it's not that phenomenal that you are "compelled to" use bow as stamina build.

Many stamina builds these days go 2H/DW instead just to stack bleeds, while most are "compelled to" use 2H for the instant heal.

I've personally made even DW/DW work very well in the past.

Lethal arrow delves for as much as wreaking blow...and allows you do it from saftey... Miats hurts this ability honestly ...

Wrecking Blow is kind of a joke, but yes, the damage is equal to Wrecking Blow (or hard casted Crystal Frags) if you wear 5x Marksman.

Your chance of actually landing it however is even less than the chance of landing a Wrecking Blow (already impossible vs other stam builds, which is why it doesn't see much play). Trying to land a Snipe is like hard casting Crystal Frags, except even worse.

The difficulty of landing a Snipe has less to do with Miat (though it of course makes it even worse & that addon should be banned imo), but more with the obvious audio/visual cues it has.

Snipe was bad long before Miat ever existed, because good players just dodge/block the snipe upon hearing the audio cue/seeing the arrow, and those who don't aren't even dead to the Snipe combo anymore as the damage is lackluster at best for the following reasons:

• There's no follow up damage at all. The next Snipe will take 1s+ to land and bow light attacks inbetween don't deal much damage at all.
• No strong proc sets for extra burst damage, besides Poisonous Serpent (about to be nerfed next patch). DW/2H builds get Viper (or Poisonous Serpent) and/or Red Mountain and Selene for much, much higher burst.

Just compare Snipe burst to Cloak->Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack(stun if you do it correctly)->Incap+some procs.
The melee burst is on a whole another universe.


Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill, and when you could land combos with it (e.g. Haste(no longer exists)->Snipe(had 3s cast time & more dmg)->Heavy Attack (you could charge full heavy & shoot it before Snipe landed)+Poison Injection - Heavy Attack would stun the opponent & all of them landed at the same time -> RIP.

No longer possible - you just have a spammable, easily dodged/blocked/shielded bow skill but absolutely no good follow up damage.


Now, I don't say Snipe should be like it used to be ("headshot style PvP") - but it should be worth using atleast, changed to something different that works in PvP & PvE. Just like Crystal Frags are worth using for sorcs.


The reason snipers currently just snipe->cloak & hide is because they know they can't kill most people - if they had a fighting chance they'd fight & try to win.

You can still do the combo of Snipe/Ambush/Incap/Surprise Attack if you're a Nightblade

Still Nasty as ever...Miats kills your chance against landing it though against most people.

Well yeah... but that isn't really a "bow/snipe build" (it's just part of a melee combo).

Anyway, I stopped using that because there were more useful things to have on bar than Snipe, as it's a dead skill on bar after that opener.

The heavy attack combo deals almost as much damage anyway (a bit less since Morrowind's heavy attack nerf tho) and it's faster to perform.

Kilandros

DDuke wrote: »

Just compare Snipe burst to Cloak->Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack(stun if you do it correctly)->Incap+some procs.
The melee burst is on a whole another universe.


Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill.

LOL get out of here already. Do you actually believe there's ANY comparison between SNIPE (a single ranged ability) and the combination of Stealth + Heavy Attack + SA (2 abilities from stealth)? The very fact that you are attempting to justify buffing an already easy scrubmode skill like Snipe by complaining that it doesn't "guarantee a kill" anymore shows how off the handles you are.

Sorry you can't easy mode your way through PvP by 1 shotting people with a bow. I don't know why you find that fun. This isn't CoD.

Aedaryl

The fact bow is underperforming is true : people only slot bow for the poison injection skill and the major expedition bonus for medium armor.

The opener post suggestions are very welcome and will not make bow OP.

However, you can't buff to much snipe, because it has major difile debuff. That's why I think the opener solution is good.

SodanTok

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Just compare Snipe burst to Cloak->Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack(stun if you do it correctly)->Incap+some procs.
The melee burst is on a whole another universe.


Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill.

LOL get out of here already. Do you actually believe there's ANY comparison between SNIPE (a single ranged ability) and the combination of Stealth + Heavy Attack + SA (2 abilities from stealth)? The very fact that you are attempting to justify buffing an already easy scrubmode skill like Snipe by complaining that it doesn't "guarantee a kill" anymore shows how off the handles you are.

Sorry you can't easy mode your way through PvP by 1 shotting people with a bow. I don't know why you find that fun. This isn't CoD.

Glad you agree that that Snipe doing same damage as combo of several skills is not good. That means you are totally behind introducing and/or making viable more ranged skills to create a way to actually do some combo (not necessarily stealth related)

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Just compare Snipe burst to Cloak->Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack(stun if you do it correctly)->Incap+some procs.
The melee burst is on a whole another universe.


Snipe was good back in the days when landing it guaranteed a kill.

LOL get out of here already. Do you actually believe there's ANY comparison between SNIPE (a single ranged ability) and the combination of Stealth + Heavy Attack + SA (2 abilities from stealth)? The very fact that you are attempting to justify buffing an already easy scrubmode skill like Snipe by complaining that it doesn't "guarantee a kill" anymore shows how off the handles you are.

Sorry you can't easy mode your way through PvP by 1 shotting people with a bow. I don't know why you find that fun. This isn't CoD.

Do you have reading comprehension problems?

DDuke wrote:

Now, I don't say Snipe should be like it used to be ("headshot style PvP") - but it should be worth using atleast, changed to something different that works in PvP & PvE. Just like Crystal Frags are worth using for sorcs.

And yes, I can compare two stealth combos with each other. Why shouldn't I?

Snipe burst means Snipe+Medium Weave+PI for bow builds, you land those at the same second.
Heavy Attack combo is Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack(stun)+Incap & procs, you land those at the same second.

Guess which one kills people and which one doesn't.


Now, I understand why a zergling like you would think bow is stronk, after all a bow build can poke zergs & maybe kill someone if they take damage from other people as well (or if they just plain suck) and a zerg can't just melt that bow build because it's too far away.

Meanwhile, a melee build is just a free kill for the Xv1 heroes if you try to kill someone in a zerg.


That's literally the only upside to using bow, too bad you can't kill any good players like that (unless you Xv1).

Emma_Overload

For once I actually agree with @DDuke, bow needs to be buffed. Anything that encourages stamina builds to fight at range is a GOOD thing for all ranged builds, including mag sorcs.

Toc de Malsvi

Emma_Overload wrote: »

For once I actually agree with @DDuke, bow needs to be buffed. Anything that encourages stamina builds to fight at range is a GOOD thing for all ranged builds, including mag sorcs.

^
Reasonable poster.

DDuke

@SodanTok

Snipe combo doesn't deal even remotely the damage of a melee combo, I'll provide some numbers.

With 1x Kena 1x Veli 4/5x Alchemist & 5x Marksman (maximum damage for bow):
Snipe 17 701 (+12% max range)->19 825
Bow Medium Weave 6000-7000~ with 12% max range (can't get exact figure for this)
Poison Injection 6882 (+12% max range)->7708

Total Burst: 33 533-34 533 minus Battle Spirit = 16 766-17 266

If we assume everything crits (75% dmg modifier), then it's 29 340-30 215 damage.

Add in oblivion enchant and we have a total of 31 372-32 267 damage on 0 crit resistance/armor/CPs

Edit: I might as well add the mythical scenario where someone gets 5x Hawk Eye stacks, stealths/cloaks & lands the combo before Hawk Eye runs out. In this scenario, bow user might as well wear 2x Kena instead of 1x Kena + 1x Veli - let's really ramp up the damage.

Snipe 23 508
Bow Medium Weave 9000-10000~
Poison Injection 9139
Oblivion Enchant 2099

Total Burst: 43 746-44 746 minus Battle Spirit = 21 873-22 373
If everything crits: 38 278-39 153 damage on 0 crit resistance/armor/CPs.


Alright, lets look at the melee combo (just gonna use my own setup, not even the highest burst build you can make):

With 2x Selene, 3/5x Sheer Venom & 5x Poisonous Serpent 1x Master Bow:
Heavy Attack 13 626
Surprise Attack 12 567
Selene 16 440
Poisonous Serpent 9206
Incap 19 790
Oblivion Enchant 2099
Bash 2179

Total Burst: 75 907 damage minus Battle Spirit = 37 953.5
Without Selene proc: 57 288 damage minus Battle Spirit = 29 733.5

Heavy Attack & Surprise Attack will always crit if combo is performed properly, Incap & Bash have 46.5% crit chance, rest can't crit.

So we'll apply a 75% modifier to Heavy Attack & Surprise Attack first: 47 776 damage
If Incap & Bash crit (46.5% chance each): 56 014 damage on a target with 0 crit resistance/armor/CPs


Edit 2: I'm not able to properly calculate stuff for next patch yet (for obvious reasons), but the damage is approximately 46k damage next patch without a single proc set.


Not only is that much easier to land than the clearly telegraphed bow combo, but the burst damage is literally twice as good.

So I hope everyone can see why bow & melee bursts are currently in two different planets.


And yes, you can perform the whole combo (starts from when Heavy Attack+SA land) within 1,5s.

Rowjoh

Couldn't agree more that Bow needs buffing in some way shape or form.

Fact: overall the Bow is significantly weaker than any other weapon type.

@Vapirko is right - it shouldn't be on a par with sorcs or blade users, especially for PVP, but a couple of strategic buffs here and there to at least make it more acceptable for dlc content, trials etc would be a fair thing to do.

Even in PvP the bow has more shortcomings than any other weapon type and the ultimate is laughable compared to the destro ultimate.

SodanTok

@DDuke thats the thing, there is no combo (if not to match the more dangerous melee combo to at least get near) because there are no skills and almost no procs to combo with
you get no cheap or instant ulti, you get no instant spammable (silver shards on bow deal less damage than crushing shock on destro), you get nearly no proc sets (and serpent is very difficult to get for vast majority of pvp players, contrary to monster proc sets or current viper), you get no CC to guarantee hits and unless you play warden or possibly templar you get nothing to deal damage to dodge roll and all your damage is lower making it very inabalanced trying to kill some shield stackers or heavy armor/block builds
//EDIT: not to mention sniper combo is the only stealth attack combo that warns the user... I can get hit by incap and hear it 0.1s later and see the ganker 0.5s later... i can hear snipe 0.5s before

and that is not even speaking about stealth, you need some sort of burst combo to kill people all the time. The only effective burst combo I currently am capable of on bow build is on warden and that is with subassault (20m range), draining shot (10m), dawnbreaker (10m) and pidgeon spam the only difference between me and melee warden is that i sprint everywhere when i have to chase, my damage and healing is lower, but I can fight effectively from 10m range where all melee builds need to go to 5m!

FakeFox

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The bias is strong with this one.

Stamina dps will become too strong if bows are buffed? Are you high? Snipe does not factor into current dps builds and no one is asking for a buff to poison injection or endless hail.

Bow can't be viable because they "need" to be melee. So basically you have already chosen your bias as the correct solution before bringing anything useful to the conversation.

One shot with a bow? Who? Have you logged into the game recently?

There is not a 30% speed buff just for slitting bow. It requires dodge rolling to get a short duration buff.

Ability to sneak is not in anyway tied to bows that is only in your own personal fantasy.

Bows give you speed for short duration after dodge they do not increase the amount you can dodge at all.

One suggestion is to buff bows base damage to be on par with twohander, which would in return make bow do far more damage, no matter if main- or backbar. Since most viable stamina builds spend quite some time on their bow bar this would give them more overall DPS, it would be the most beneficial for those builds that already have the highest single target DPS right now.
You have to be melee as a stamina DPS, because you will only ever have three range dots (range version of beast trap, endless hail, poison injection) and that will not make a viable rotation, even if snipe hits for 50k with no cast time.

If you know what you are doing you can hit for 15-20k on players with snipe and have better escape and kiting potential then probably any other build. Being ranged is a huge advantage in PvP in nearly every situation, so what would be the point of playing melee if range could simply do the same damage?

SodanTok

FakeFox wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The bias is strong with this one.

Stamina dps will become too strong if bows are buffed? Are you high? Snipe does not factor into current dps builds and no one is asking for a buff to poison injection or endless hail.

Bow can't be viable because they "need" to be melee. So basically you have already chosen your bias as the correct solution before bringing anything useful to the conversation.

One shot with a bow? Who? Have you logged into the game recently?

There is not a 30% speed buff just for slitting bow. It requires dodge rolling to get a short duration buff.

Ability to sneak is not in anyway tied to bows that is only in your own personal fantasy.

Bows give you speed for short duration after dodge they do not increase the amount you can dodge at all.

One suggestion is to buff bows base damage to be on par with twohander, which would in return make bow do far more damage, no matter if main- or backbar. Since most viable stamina builds spend quite some time on their bow bar this would give them more overall DPS, it would be the most beneficial for those builds that already have the highest single target DPS right now.
You have to be melee as a stamina DPS, because you will only ever have three range dots (range version of beast trap, endless hail, poison injection) and that will not make a viable rotation, even if snipe hits for 50k with no cast time.

If you know what you are doing you can hit for 15-20k on players with snipe and have better escape and kiting potential then probably any other build. Being ranged is a huge advantage in PvP in nearly every situation, so what would be the point of playing melee if range could simply do the same damage?

Ranged already do the same damage. Except when you play stamina ranged. Then you deal less damage than people playing melee and ranged. Do I have to spell it out more for you?

FakeFox

DDuke wrote: »

The +movement speed passive from Bow skill line is sometimes useful, but doesn't last long (and requires dodge rolling, which is a useless defense mechanic in most fights where undodgeable skills are everywhere).

And since when is "high range" some kind of awesome bonus? This game has spammable gap closers, spammable roots, spammable snares - "range" does not exist if your opponents know anything about this game.

Doging is not a viable defence? You just need to know what to doge and what to block instead. Doge can be insanely strong if used correctly, especially at high range, since most dangerous undogeables are melee or short range.

And high range is a huge advantage. You can out-range gapclosers and gapclosers also can't reach you on top of walls, rocks, etc. but you can simply shoot down. Not to mention popper group play, were your melees can completly keep the enemy off you while you can sit back and do damage as long as you stay out of gapcloser range.