Balance patch incoming! Don't forget about bow!

STEVIL

SodanTok wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The bias is strong with this one.

Stamina dps will become too strong if bows are buffed? Are you high? Snipe does not factor into current dps builds and no one is asking for a buff to poison injection or endless hail.

Bow can't be viable because they "need" to be melee. So basically you have already chosen your bias as the correct solution before bringing anything useful to the conversation.

One shot with a bow? Who? Have you logged into the game recently?

There is not a 30% speed buff just for slitting bow. It requires dodge rolling to get a short duration buff.

Ability to sneak is not in anyway tied to bows that is only in your own personal fantasy.

Bows give you speed for short duration after dodge they do not increase the amount you can dodge at all.

One suggestion is to buff bows base damage to be on par with twohander, which would in return make bow do far more damage, no matter if main- or backbar. Since most viable stamina builds spend quite some time on their bow bar this would give them more overall DPS, it would be the most beneficial for those builds that already have the highest single target DPS right now.
You have to be melee as a stamina DPS, because you will only ever have three range dots (range version of beast trap, endless hail, poison injection) and that will not make a viable rotation, even if snipe hits for 50k with no cast time.

If you know what you are doing you can hit for 15-20k on players with snipe and have better escape and kiting potential then probably any other build. Being ranged is a huge advantage in PvP in nearly every situation, so what would be the point of playing melee if range could simply do the same damage?

Ranged already do the same damage. Except when you play stamina ranged. Then you deal less damage than people playing melee and ranged. Do I have to spell it out more for you?

If you are referring to base damage, then only 2h matches 2h and all others are less.

if you are referring to total DPS, like say from passives and sets and rotations and all that jazz, some believe melee stam builds are tops, and those often utilize bow as backbar as well.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

@STEVIL
Its all of those. Best Pareses on a solo dummy? Stam accross the board. Best Parses on trial bosses, again, stam is winning now. Best sustain? Not even close. Stam is so much better with sustain. Is it harder to play? Sure, but that's no the issue. They should get more DPS BECAUSE it's harder to play.

As for VMA weapons, yes they increase DPS on both, but they are back bar weapons. BIS front bar weapons come from Trials, BIS backbar weapons come from VMA. VMA DW weapons are garbage this patch. I will concede that a back bar VMA bow is a slightly bigger DPS increase than a back bar VMA staff.

If you take VMA and trial weapons out of the equation, my money is still on stam for raw DPS.

So, while there may be an argument for changes to bow passives, which i could get behind as long as they don't just turn it into a melee weapon or give it melee DPS at range, there is not so much an argument for buffing bow base weapon damage.

Then again, i have seen quite a few argue that ranged is a trivial thing not worth much at all. So, arguing about whether ranged or not is not a significant element to some.

SodanTok

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The bias is strong with this one.

Stamina dps will become too strong if bows are buffed? Are you high? Snipe does not factor into current dps builds and no one is asking for a buff to poison injection or endless hail.

Bow can't be viable because they "need" to be melee. So basically you have already chosen your bias as the correct solution before bringing anything useful to the conversation.

One shot with a bow? Who? Have you logged into the game recently?

There is not a 30% speed buff just for slitting bow. It requires dodge rolling to get a short duration buff.

Ability to sneak is not in anyway tied to bows that is only in your own personal fantasy.

Bows give you speed for short duration after dodge they do not increase the amount you can dodge at all.

One suggestion is to buff bows base damage to be on par with twohander, which would in return make bow do far more damage, no matter if main- or backbar. Since most viable stamina builds spend quite some time on their bow bar this would give them more overall DPS, it would be the most beneficial for those builds that already have the highest single target DPS right now.
You have to be melee as a stamina DPS, because you will only ever have three range dots (range version of beast trap, endless hail, poison injection) and that will not make a viable rotation, even if snipe hits for 50k with no cast time.

If you know what you are doing you can hit for 15-20k on players with snipe and have better escape and kiting potential then probably any other build. Being ranged is a huge advantage in PvP in nearly every situation, so what would be the point of playing melee if range could simply do the same damage?

Ranged already do the same damage. Except when you play stamina ranged. Then you deal less damage than people playing melee and ranged. Do I have to spell it out more for you?

If you are referring to base damage, then only 2h matches 2h and all others are less.

if you are referring to total DPS, like say from passives and sets and rotations and all that jazz, some believe melee stam builds are tops, and those often utilize bow as backbar as well.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

@STEVIL
Its all of those. Best Pareses on a solo dummy? Stam accross the board. Best Parses on trial bosses, again, stam is winning now. Best sustain? Not even close. Stam is so much better with sustain. Is it harder to play? Sure, but that's no the issue. They should get more DPS BECAUSE it's harder to play.

As for VMA weapons, yes they increase DPS on both, but they are back bar weapons. BIS front bar weapons come from Trials, BIS backbar weapons come from VMA. VMA DW weapons are garbage this patch. I will concede that a back bar VMA bow is a slightly bigger DPS increase than a back bar VMA staff.

If you take VMA and trial weapons out of the equation, my money is still on stam for raw DPS.

So, while there may be an argument for changes to bow passives, which i could get behind as long as they don't just turn it into a melee weapon or give it melee DPS at range, there is not so much an argument for buffing bow base weapon damage.

Then again, i have seen quite a few argue that ranged is a trivial thing not worth much at all. So, arguing about whether ranged or not is not a significant element to some.

I assume you call "no such argument" fact that you dont want to buff normal stam dps. Which stand on your lack of knowledge that AoE DoT damage considers damage of active weapon and single target DoT damage of active weapon on hit. So your caltrops and endless hail is buffed by your dual wield damage and if your rotation allows you can swap to DW before trap is activated (and the second trap is always activated on DW). In some cases you can even swap anim cancel poison injection and buff its damage by DW too.
If I am not mistaken (could be someone else) you used similar reasoning to fight against making bow possible with 5/5/2 setups because you again thought it would have some big impact on backbar bow.

So while you are going here from thread to thread to defend current state of bows, you rarely have knowledge to support your claims while stam dpse in pve are doing more damage with bow skills on their dual wield bar than people using bow (and did even more when VMA daggers were popular) because they get more damage, good passives and 12th set piece. I would not be surprised if in your imaginary world of PVE DPS poor melee stam are constantly under fire of boss AoE attacks while very viable bowmen stand in the back of room never even scratched while healers apply berserk and other buffs and stamblades major slayer to everyone in the room even that bowman far away. Maybe I underestimate your understanding of the game, but there must be some reason why you are in every bow thread talking like expert trial man and expert bow user, yet you always get so many basic things wrong.

Not to mention it is very shallow of you, given that you were against similar buffs even when stam were bad.
You are pretty much always against most proposals that you feel are threatening to DW dominance.

Maryal

I would like my bow to have a scope ... giving X magnification ... sniping a head shot increases the damage done by X amount. Now hold on, I'm not done. The scope (along with the increased damage for head shots) would be limited ... the scope (as well as increased damage for head shots) would ONLY work at max range (28-30 meters). Sniping is supposed to be done with precision AND from a distance AND not be a spammable ability. Also, we will need to be able to draw our bow and hold it until ready to fire ... like it used to be before the change that made heavy bow attacks 'auto fire.'

I understand that some folks like having their heavy bow attacks auto-fire. Don't worry, I've got this handled. We introduce the SNIPE BOW .... the snipe bow will be the one that has the magnification scope, allows the user to draw the bow and hold it until ready to fire, and provide the increased damage for successful head shots (folks that like their heavy bow attacks to auto-fire can simply equip a 'regular' bow).

STEVIL

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The bias is strong with this one.

Stamina dps will become too strong if bows are buffed? Are you high? Snipe does not factor into current dps builds and no one is asking for a buff to poison injection or endless hail.

Bow can't be viable because they "need" to be melee. So basically you have already chosen your bias as the correct solution before bringing anything useful to the conversation.

One shot with a bow? Who? Have you logged into the game recently?

There is not a 30% speed buff just for slitting bow. It requires dodge rolling to get a short duration buff.

Ability to sneak is not in anyway tied to bows that is only in your own personal fantasy.

Bows give you speed for short duration after dodge they do not increase the amount you can dodge at all.

One suggestion is to buff bows base damage to be on par with twohander, which would in return make bow do far more damage, no matter if main- or backbar. Since most viable stamina builds spend quite some time on their bow bar this would give them more overall DPS, it would be the most beneficial for those builds that already have the highest single target DPS right now.
You have to be melee as a stamina DPS, because you will only ever have three range dots (range version of beast trap, endless hail, poison injection) and that will not make a viable rotation, even if snipe hits for 50k with no cast time.

If you know what you are doing you can hit for 15-20k on players with snipe and have better escape and kiting potential then probably any other build. Being ranged is a huge advantage in PvP in nearly every situation, so what would be the point of playing melee if range could simply do the same damage?

Ranged already do the same damage. Except when you play stamina ranged. Then you deal less damage than people playing melee and ranged. Do I have to spell it out more for you?

If you are referring to base damage, then only 2h matches 2h and all others are less.

if you are referring to total DPS, like say from passives and sets and rotations and all that jazz, some believe melee stam builds are tops, and those often utilize bow as backbar as well.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

@STEVIL
Its all of those. Best Pareses on a solo dummy? Stam accross the board. Best Parses on trial bosses, again, stam is winning now. Best sustain? Not even close. Stam is so much better with sustain. Is it harder to play? Sure, but that's no the issue. They should get more DPS BECAUSE it's harder to play.

As for VMA weapons, yes they increase DPS on both, but they are back bar weapons. BIS front bar weapons come from Trials, BIS backbar weapons come from VMA. VMA DW weapons are garbage this patch. I will concede that a back bar VMA bow is a slightly bigger DPS increase than a back bar VMA staff.

If you take VMA and trial weapons out of the equation, my money is still on stam for raw DPS.

So, while there may be an argument for changes to bow passives, which i could get behind as long as they don't just turn it into a melee weapon or give it melee DPS at range, there is not so much an argument for buffing bow base weapon damage.

Then again, i have seen quite a few argue that ranged is a trivial thing not worth much at all. So, arguing about whether ranged or not is not a significant element to some.

I assume you call "no such argument" fact that you dont want to buff normal stam dps. Which stand on your lack of knowledge that AoE DoT damage considers damage of active weapon and single target DoT damage of active weapon on hit. So your caltrops and endless hail is buffed by your dual wield damage and if your rotation allows you can swap to DW before trap is activated (and the second trap is always activated on DW). In some cases you can even swap anim cancel poison injection and buff its damage by DW too.
If I am not mistaken (could be someone else) you used similar reasoning to fight against making bow possible with 5/5/2 setups because you again thought it would have some big impact on backbar bow.

So while you are going here from thread to thread to defend current state of bows, you rarely have knowledge to support your claims while stam dpse in pve are doing more damage with bow skills on their dual wield bar than people using bow (and did even more when VMA daggers were popular) because they get more damage, good passives and 12th set piece. I would not be surprised if in your imaginary world of PVE DPS poor melee stam are constantly under fire of boss AoE attacks while very viable bowmen stand in the back of room never even scratched while healers apply berserk and other buffs and stamblades major slayer to everyone in the room even that bowman far away. Maybe I underestimate your understanding of the game, but there must be some reason why you are in every bow thread talking like expert trial man and expert bow user, yet you always get so many basic things wrong.

Not to mention it is very shallow of you, given that you were against similar buffs even when stam were bad.
You are pretty much always against most proposals that you feel are threatening to DW dominance.

Ok so, again you miss the mark which is likely telling for someone who thinks bows need all this and all that.

In your haste to fabricate how i did not understand this or that you misspoke.

the DW BASE DAMAGE is the same as bow. it is the passives which increase the "weapon damage" result for DW and that leads to the increased output for non-class weapon skills for DW vs bow. That was what i was talking about and that you apparently missed out on when i said the argument made was more focusing on passives and their results and not so much an argument for increasing the base damage of the weapon.

Also, and i am sure you are aware of this, i myself have advocated numerous times that weapon base damage should be divorced from non-weapon skills, so that whether you have 2h or bow equipped would not change your class skills beyond any passives specifically angled toward "all skills" like say the bow's passive called accuracy which increases the weapon critical rating (and thus the overall damage output of all skills, class or not) in all circumstances - a fact you somehow as a bow aficionado left out in your oh so eloquent sentence describing the unfairness of the DW passives impacting caltrops and such. (but i suppose your browser's limited pixel count prevented you from adding that in - that swapping to DW costs you the passive bonus to weapon crit for all those ticks yet to come (unless you slot in daggers and give up some of the damage bonus.).

So again, its the passives, not the base damage.

Also, i dont think i ever claimed folks were doing more damage with bow skills on their DW bar or more damage with bow than DW or whatever mish-mash lack of specificity you were trying to put together there... i am pretty sure i very frequently point to DW/bow for pve and 2h/bow for pvp as the top end commonly referenced damage builds for the stamina group. Obviously 1HS has gained a lot as well thru its mixed builds too thru recent patches.

So as you concoct all those imaginative inventions of your about what is wrong and assign them to other folks, maybe you should pay a little more attention to the misunderstandings in your own argument.

Meanwhile, as to your illusions of expert trial man affectations or supposed favor of DW dominance, or whatever other space alien sightings you want to imagine, thats just some demons you will have to figure out for yourself. its nothing to do with me.

STEVIL

Maryal wrote: »

I would like my bow to have a scope ... giving X magnification ... sniping a head shot increases the damage done by X amount. Now hold on, I'm not done. The scope (along with the increased damage for head shots) would be limited ... the scope (as well as increased damage for head shots) would ONLY work at max range (28-30 meters). Sniping is supposed to be done with precision AND from a distance AND not be a spammable ability. Also, we will need to be able to draw our bow and hold it until ready to fire ... like it used to be before the change that made heavy bow attacks 'auto fire.'

I understand that some folks like having their heavy bow attacks auto-fire. Don't worry, I've got this handled. We introduce the SNIPE BOW .... the snipe bow will be the one that has the magnification scope, allows the user to draw the bow and hold it until ready to fire, and provide the increased damage for successful head shots (folks that like their heavy bow attacks to auto-fire can simply equip a 'regular' bow).

I would agree with holding bows until ready to fire as long as that shot is a light attack!

there is no argument that makes sense for a bow-held-shot to be a heavy attack.

an IRL bow held back does not do more damage than one drawn and fired normally. So any "irl i can draw and hold bow" argument fails to establish that shot as a heavy attack that does more damage and restores stamina.

An "in-game" argument does not exist that shows any reason why bows alone should have holdable heavy attacks.

I could agree with an option where there is a toggle and every weapon for a character either has "hold heavies" or "auto-release heavies" in a character's settings so that if your DW/bow guy wants to hold his bow he also has to hold his 2h and hold his dw.

As for the scope and the mag shot, not approaches i would opt for but good luck with the approach.

Trashs1

im agreeing with the points in the first post!

IlCanis_LupuslI

josiahva wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I'd like to see both 1) & 2).

Bow needs a lot of work to be competitive with DW & 2H (both their weapon damage and their damage increasing passives like Twin Blade & Blunt, Follow Up etc).


As for the bow skills, after extensive testing I still feel like Snipe & morphs need a massive buff (instant cast or "crystal frag" type proc could work) to be even remotely worth slotting. It's just way too easy to avoid currently and barely tickles unless you have 5x Hawk Eye stacks & are far enough for Long Shots +12% damage, which is just not practical in any way shape or form.

I feel Scatter Shot & morphs could also use a significant range increase for them be viable for a bow focused build (not just backbar CC for a melee build).

Acid Spray needs to be buffed as well, the damage is laughable.

No, bow does NOT need to be competitive with melee ranged skills. Why should you do just as much damage standing 20 meters away as someone who risks being in cleave/AoE range? In the real world, the further away you are from a target, the less energy you hit that target with. Shooting an arrow from close range is MORE effective in the real world...not less(at least from the point the projectile reaches maximum velocity). The drag from the air, gravity etc all reduce the kinetic energy of an object moving through the air, this is physics, which seems to apply to non-magical things in the Elder Scrolls universe otherwise. I believe the same should be true for the magical attacks as well, there should be a damage boost for being CLOSER, not further away.

Caugh magsorcs??? Only they have shields???? Yes it should be as competitive the bow beeing weak as a main weapon is the reason there are hardly any stam range builds out there

IlCanis_LupuslI

Vapirko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw? They have the distinct advantage of aoe dots and being ranged.

1. Both 2H & DW have significantly stronger AoE DoTs, ones with strong effects that actually make them worth slotting (Carve, Deadly/Quick Cloak, Rend).
2. There is no real advantage of "being ranged", it just means attacks are more telegraphed and easier to dodge due to travel times.
3. Half the magicka builds out there are ranged and deal same (or more) dmg than melee builds - why should bow be any different?
4. There's already a passive to balance it out (Long Shots), which makes sure you can't deal full damage unless you're at maximum range - which means that there's an advantage for melee builds when they're close up.
5. Gap closers. No cooldowns.
6. Inability to effectively CC your opponent to kite them, due to cooldownless CC break & CC immunity (root immunity after dodge roll too).
7. Lack of strong Area Denial like mines to prevent opponents from spamming gap closers & staying in melee 24/7 if they want to.

Should I go on? The fact that it creates more build diversity & thus more varied and interesting PvP should be reason enough.

Wouldn't you like to see atleast some of those Viper Selene procblades swap to a different build, so you're not fighting the same thing over & over again?

yeah I definitely want a bunch of stealthed proc blades hitting 15 or 20k with snipe. With my pve build in cyro I can hit people for 10k snipes.

I hit people with 20k+ snipes atm lmao

IlCanis_LupuslI

SodanTok wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I guess you misunderstand me. I didn't say snipe is op. I just said if you increase the damage or change it into an instant cast spammable then something else has to be taken away to not make it OP then.

So instant cast frag (or warden bird) is fine, but instant cast snipe would immediately be op? Got to love this sorc logic.

If there was any build that actually deserved a strong/borderline op skill to make it competitive or even worth playing, that'd be the bow builds.

As a sorcerer you have no right to complain about Snipe, when it takes two of them even with 5x Hawk Eye stacks to break a single shield, while it takes any magicka build one Soul Assault to kill a sniper.

The point is crystal frag is a proc and not a spammable, and have a visual indicator before you use it.

Also, having a bow is used because it's give major speed buff and because of Poison injection, a pretty good skill.

How much is snipe tooltip damage with a buffed decent non proc build ? I only see 15k+ in my recap, but I would like to know if it's a "special build" or just a noob spamming it whitout knowing what it does.

Tell me how big it is

As big as dizzy swing and unprocced crystal frag
//edit: dizzy swing would have higher tooltip because of 2H weapon damage

Also can we move away from snipe. While it is very problematic skill because it is almost useless outside of zerg and gank and with Miat addon, it is barely small part of everything that is wrong with bow... like tooltip of vigor being 1-2k less than same build on 2H




@STEVIL why is anybody playing melee stamina at all when they can play ranged magicka because range is such a huge advantage

My tooltip is 20k and with a high crit damage i can hit for 24k max

Feanor

So, according to you it isn't a distinctive advantage to attack someone from stealth who is not aware or occupied elsewhere? You are guaranteed the first hit(s). The opponent almost always has to go defensive first and the attacker keeps the initiative of the fight. That's enough in my book.

It's bad game design to allow one shots or two shots at all, the exception being maybe some gross misplays by your opponent. There should always be counterplay possible.

It's true that a snipe gank doesn't kill a competent player who isn't brain afk anymore (if you don't get to play against Warbow that is ). But that's a good thing. What I find disingenuous though is the notion that bow isn't strong in certain areas. If you read the thread you'd think that bow in its certain form is useless. The sheer amount of snipes and poison injections speak differently. Snipe is especially nasty when you are occupied elsewhere. The audio cue doesn't always play, and it's a bad design idea anyway.

I know the thread is about bow as a main hand weapon. I still think it shouldn't be on par with other weapons simply because bow allows for play without any real risk, especially if stealth is added.

As for Dark Flare it's true a Templar can gank with that too. You just don't see it that often though because DF is a bad skill in non gank situations. It's one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the game.

I don't know, I sympathize with the goal - everyone should have a play style available that is enjoyable, and I can see why the archer archetype is so attractive for many players. I still think it's tough to do without gank potential completely being overboard then though.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

So, according to you it isn't a distinctive advantage to attack someone from stealth who is not aware or occupied elsewhere? You are guaranteed the first hit(s). The opponent almost always has to go defensive first and the attacker keeps the initiative of the fight. That's enough in my book.

No, I don't think "first hits" is enough of a bonus - certainly not enough to make stealth focused builds feel indepth. But this is getting off topic, I could go on for hours regarding stealth and how it should be.

Feanor wrote: »

It's bad game design to allow one shots or two shots at all, the exception being maybe some gross misplays by your opponent. There should always be counterplay possible.

Yes, agreed - though sadly those instagibs are currently necessary for pretty much every 1v1/1vX build, due to all the dmg shield spamming, heals & permablocking going on.

Feanor wrote: »

It's true that a snipe gank doesn't kill a competent player who isn't brain afk anymore (if you don't get to play against Warbow that is ). But that's a good thing. What I find disingenuous though is the notion that bow isn't strong in certain areas. If you read the thread you'd think that bow in its certain form is useless. The sheer amount of snipes and poison injections speak differently. Snipe is especially nasty when you are occupied elsewhere. The audio cue doesn't always play, and it's a bad design idea anyway.

And how many lone snipers have you ever died to? I've got close to 300 days /played and here's my count: 0.

That includes the days when snipe was actually strong and could easily kill anyone who didn't dodge/block it(+combo).

Yeah, it might be annoying when you're outnumbered and someone starts sniping you - but trust me, you'll rather have that sniper there than some incap proc hero dealing twice the damage (and actually CCing you).

Feanor wrote: »

I know the thread is about bow as a main hand weapon. I still think it shouldn't be on par with other weapons simply because bow allows for play without any real risk, especially if stealth is added.

Sure, there's less risk for a cowardly bow user than there is for a melee build, but couldn't the same be said about any ranged magicka build? Especially sorc, which can just streak away when things go south.

The difference is, while magicka ranged build is low risk high reward, stamina ranged build is low risk no reward.

Feanor wrote: »

As for Dark Flare it's true a Templar can gank with that too. You just don't see it that often though because DF is a bad skill in non gank situations. It's one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the game.

And Snipe isn't?

Feanor wrote: »

I don't know, I sympathize with the goal - everyone should have a play style available that is enjoyable, and I can see why the archer archetype is so attractive for many players. I still think it's tough to do without gank potential completely being overboard then though.

Not really, some miracle would have to happen for bow's gank potential to surpass melee builds. I recently calculated multiple different combos with and without proc sets, and melee always came up on top - dealing almost twice the damage of bow in every scenario.

DDuke

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I guess you misunderstand me. I didn't say snipe is op. I just said if you increase the damage or change it into an instant cast spammable then something else has to be taken away to not make it OP then.

So instant cast frag (or warden bird) is fine, but instant cast snipe would immediately be op? Got to love this sorc logic.

If there was any build that actually deserved a strong/borderline op skill to make it competitive or even worth playing, that'd be the bow builds.

As a sorcerer you have no right to complain about Snipe, when it takes two of them even with 5x Hawk Eye stacks to break a single shield, while it takes any magicka build one Soul Assault to kill a sniper.

The point is crystal frag is a proc and not a spammable, and have a visual indicator before you use it.

Also, having a bow is used because it's give major speed buff and because of Poison injection, a pretty good skill.

How much is snipe tooltip damage with a buffed decent non proc build ? I only see 15k+ in my recap, but I would like to know if it's a "special build" or just a noob spamming it whitout knowing what it does.

Tell me how big it is

As big as dizzy swing and unprocced crystal frag
//edit: dizzy swing would have higher tooltip because of 2H weapon damage

Also can we move away from snipe. While it is very problematic skill because it is almost useless outside of zerg and gank and with Miat addon, it is barely small part of everything that is wrong with bow... like tooltip of vigor being 1-2k less than same build on 2H




@STEVIL why is anybody playing melee stamina at all when they can play ranged magicka because range is such a huge advantage

My tooltip is 20k and with a high crit damage i can hit for 24k max

Tooltip of 20k is 10k in PvP. To crit someone for 24k (naked+no CP/crit resistance), you'd need 240% crit dmg, which is not possible unless you get Major/Minor Force buffs.

Edit: scratch that, not possible - period. Maximum damage you can deal with crits is 233%, with Shadow mundus, 100 Precise Strikes, Hemorrhage or Piercing Spear passive, 5x Archer's Mind & Major+Minor Force.

Maryal

STEVIL wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

I would like my bow to have a scope ... giving X magnification ... sniping a head shot increases the damage done by X amount. Now hold on, I'm not done. The scope (along with the increased damage for head shots) would be limited ... the scope (as well as increased damage for head shots) would ONLY work at max range (28-30 meters). Sniping is supposed to be done with precision AND from a distance AND not be a spammable ability. Also, we will need to be able to draw our bow and hold it until ready to fire ... like it used to be before the change that made heavy bow attacks 'auto fire.'

I understand that some folks like having their heavy bow attacks auto-fire. Don't worry, I've got this handled. We introduce the SNIPE BOW .... the snipe bow will be the one that has the magnification scope, allows the user to draw the bow and hold it until ready to fire, and provide the increased damage for successful head shots (folks that like their heavy bow attacks to auto-fire can simply equip a 'regular' bow).

I would agree with holding bows until ready to fire as long as that shot is a light attack!

there is no argument that makes sense for a bow-held-shot to be a heavy attack.

an IRL bow held back does not do more damage than one drawn and fired normally. So any "irl i can draw and hold bow" argument fails to establish that shot as a heavy attack that does more damage and restores stamina.

An "in-game" argument does not exist that shows any reason why bows alone should have holdable heavy attacks.

I could agree with an option where there is a toggle and every weapon for a character either has "hold heavies" or "auto-release heavies" in a character's settings so that if your DW/bow guy wants to hold his bow he also has to hold his 2h and hold his dw.

As for the scope and the mag shot, not approaches i would opt for but good luck with the approach.

Holding the bow until ready to shoot was directly connected to the "snipe bow" ...(I'm thinking a newly discovered Dwemer artifact-type bow) ... basically it's a bow that doesn't exist in the game.

Why be able to 'hold' the snipe bow? I could be wrong, but I kinda imagine that if I were to be looking through a (bow) scope, aiming for a head shot from (minimally) 28 meters away, well yea ... I think I would need to be able to hold my bow. Would this be a heavy attack? No way! It would be a snipe attack ... this is a specialized attack that can ONLY be done with the snipe bow. Successful head shots deal extra damage ... but .... hitting any other part of the target's body would deal the same amount of damage as 'focused aim' (for example). Again, so it is perfectly clear ... this is a specialized bow ... the minimum distance it can be used is 28 meters from the target. There are no heavy or light attack functions that can be done with this bow ... it is a specialized bow. Geeze! Yea, I know, getting something like this is probably not likely, but sometimes 'odd suggestions' have a way of occasionally triggering other ideas that are doable. Who knows!

Oh, and this is NOT about 'DPS' ... cuz not everything in the game has to be about DPS ... I just think it would be hecka fun to be able to snipe ... with a scope ... a dwemer artifact bow ... yea! LOL! Fun!

STEVIL

Maryal wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

I would like my bow to have a scope ... giving X magnification ... sniping a head shot increases the damage done by X amount. Now hold on, I'm not done. The scope (along with the increased damage for head shots) would be limited ... the scope (as well as increased damage for head shots) would ONLY work at max range (28-30 meters). Sniping is supposed to be done with precision AND from a distance AND not be a spammable ability. Also, we will need to be able to draw our bow and hold it until ready to fire ... like it used to be before the change that made heavy bow attacks 'auto fire.'

I understand that some folks like having their heavy bow attacks auto-fire. Don't worry, I've got this handled. We introduce the SNIPE BOW .... the snipe bow will be the one that has the magnification scope, allows the user to draw the bow and hold it until ready to fire, and provide the increased damage for successful head shots (folks that like their heavy bow attacks to auto-fire can simply equip a 'regular' bow).

I would agree with holding bows until ready to fire as long as that shot is a light attack!

there is no argument that makes sense for a bow-held-shot to be a heavy attack.

an IRL bow held back does not do more damage than one drawn and fired normally. So any "irl i can draw and hold bow" argument fails to establish that shot as a heavy attack that does more damage and restores stamina.

An "in-game" argument does not exist that shows any reason why bows alone should have holdable heavy attacks.

I could agree with an option where there is a toggle and every weapon for a character either has "hold heavies" or "auto-release heavies" in a character's settings so that if your DW/bow guy wants to hold his bow he also has to hold his 2h and hold his dw.

As for the scope and the mag shot, not approaches i would opt for but good luck with the approach.

Holding the bow until ready to shoot was directly connected to the "snipe bow" ...(I'm thinking a newly discovered Dwemer artifact-type bow) ... basically it's a bow that doesn't exist in the game.

Why be able to 'hold' the snipe bow? I could be wrong, but I kinda imagine that if I were to be looking through a (bow) scope, aiming for a head shot from (minimally) 28 meters away, well yea ... I think I would need to be able to hold my bow. Would this be a heavy attack? No way! It would be a snipe attack ... this is a specialized attack that can ONLY be done with the snipe bow. Successful head shots deal extra damage ... but .... hitting any other part of the target's body would deal the same amount of damage as 'focused aim' (for example). Again, so it is perfectly clear ... this is a specialized bow ... the minimum distance it can be used is 28 meters from the target. There are no heavy or light attack functions that can be done with this bow ... it is a specialized bow. Geeze! Yea, I know, getting something like this is probably not likely, but sometimes 'odd suggestions' have a way of occasionally triggering other ideas that are doable. Who knows!

Oh, and this is NOT about 'DPS' ... cuz not everything in the game has to be about DPS ... I just think it would be hecka fun to be able to snipe ... with a scope ... a dwemer artifact bow ... yea! LOL! Fun!

RE the bold, we agree on that, so, good so far.

As for the new dweomer snipe bow and scope bow and head shots add-on you are seeking, hey, if you think it would be fun then lobby for it and i wish you luck.

Its not my own personal cup-of-skooma for what i would see in thie game as good but hey, more flavors than butter pecan and all that.

STEVIL

Feanor wrote: »

So, according to you it isn't a distinctive advantage to attack someone from stealth who is not aware or occupied elsewhere? You are guaranteed the first hit(s). The opponent almost always has to go defensive first and the attacker keeps the initiative of the fight. That's enough in my book.

It's bad game design to allow one shots or two shots at all, the exception being maybe some gross misplays by your opponent. There should always be counterplay possible.

It's true that a snipe gank doesn't kill a competent player who isn't brain afk anymore (if you don't get to play against Warbow that is ). But that's a good thing. What I find disingenuous though is the notion that bow isn't strong in certain areas. If you read the thread you'd think that bow in its certain form is useless. The sheer amount of snipes and poison injections speak differently. Snipe is especially nasty when you are occupied elsewhere. The audio cue doesn't always play, and it's a bad design idea anyway.

I know the thread is about bow as a main hand weapon. I still think it shouldn't be on par with other weapons simply because bow allows for play without any real risk, especially if stealth is added.

As for Dark Flare it's true a Templar can gank with that too. You just don't see it that often though because DF is a bad skill in non gank situations. It's one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the game.

I don't know, I sympathize with the goal - everyone should have a play style available that is enjoyable, and I can see why the archer archetype is so attractive for many players. I still think it's tough to do without gank potential completely being overboard then though.

There are certain types of player for whom "does not do quite as much as others in a given area" equates to useless, no matter what other areas or other aspects may be in play. there are those for whom "second best" is "utter crap".

But in general i agree with your observations.

SodanTok

Feanor wrote: »

So, according to you it isn't a distinctive advantage to attack someone from stealth who is not aware or occupied elsewhere? You are guaranteed the first hit(s). The opponent almost always has to go defensive first and the attacker keeps the initiative of the fight. That's enough in my book.

It's bad game design to allow one shots or two shots at all, the exception being maybe some gross misplays by your opponent. There should always be counterplay possible.

It's true that a snipe gank doesn't kill a competent player who isn't brain afk anymore (if you don't get to play against Warbow that is ). But that's a good thing. What I find disingenuous though is the notion that bow isn't strong in certain areas. If you read the thread you'd think that bow in its certain form is useless. The sheer amount of snipes and poison injections speak differently. Snipe is especially nasty when you are occupied elsewhere. The audio cue doesn't always play, and it's a bad design idea anyway.

I know the thread is about bow as a main hand weapon. I still think it shouldn't be on par with other weapons simply because bow allows for play without any real risk, especially if stealth is added.

As for Dark Flare it's true a Templar can gank with that too. You just don't see it that often though because DF is a bad skill in non gank situations. It's one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the game.

I don't know, I sympathize with the goal - everyone should have a play style available that is enjoyable, and I can see why the archer archetype is so attractive for many players. I still think it's tough to do without gank potential completely being overboard then though.

How can you say so many things while playing magsorc. What do you risk bow users do not? How much you risk hitting that 40m range CC nuke on insta proc or that execute that just kills anyone that goes too low. How much you risk fighting anyone when you have mines and shield and streak?

What is your winrate 1v1 against nongank bow main users? 80%? 90%? 100%? How is it that high when they aren't risking anything?
Not 100%? Slot crushing shock. CG now it is 100%.

You know why you think bow users aren't risking anything? Because you don't meet them in 'risky' fights. The only bow users you meet are those sitting on walls spamming snipe, or sitting on rock spamming snipe, or sitting on keep spamming snipe or sitting inside zerg spamming snipe.
You never saw bow user 1vX because it is impossible. You maybe never saw even bow user win duel because it is night impossible vs same skilled players.
When I go vs some player on my bow warden I risk everything any melee player does. Even more, because I have to run everywhere. My fighting range is 10m because bow cc is ***. Your fighting range is 40m. 30m of those I have to sprint to you so I get to fight you and you must not streak away.
So stop saying worst ranged build in the game are not risking anything while you play best ranged build in the game.
It is same in PVE, no shields like 2H or magicka builds, no blade cloak unless DW is slotted, no self heal like DW has.

STEVIL

SodanTok wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

So, according to you it isn't a distinctive advantage to attack someone from stealth who is not aware or occupied elsewhere? You are guaranteed the first hit(s). The opponent almost always has to go defensive first and the attacker keeps the initiative of the fight. That's enough in my book.

It's bad game design to allow one shots or two shots at all, the exception being maybe some gross misplays by your opponent. There should always be counterplay possible.

It's true that a snipe gank doesn't kill a competent player who isn't brain afk anymore (if you don't get to play against Warbow that is ). But that's a good thing. What I find disingenuous though is the notion that bow isn't strong in certain areas. If you read the thread you'd think that bow in its certain form is useless. The sheer amount of snipes and poison injections speak differently. Snipe is especially nasty when you are occupied elsewhere. The audio cue doesn't always play, and it's a bad design idea anyway.

I know the thread is about bow as a main hand weapon. I still think it shouldn't be on par with other weapons simply because bow allows for play without any real risk, especially if stealth is added.

As for Dark Flare it's true a Templar can gank with that too. You just don't see it that often though because DF is a bad skill in non gank situations. It's one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the game.

I don't know, I sympathize with the goal - everyone should have a play style available that is enjoyable, and I can see why the archer archetype is so attractive for many players. I still think it's tough to do without gank potential completely being overboard then though.

How can you say so many things while playing magsorc. What do you risk bow users do not? How much you risk hitting that 40m range CC nuke on insta proc or that execute that just kills anyone that goes too low. How much you risk fighting anyone when you have mines and shield and streak?

What is your winrate 1v1 against nongank bow main users? 80%? 90%? 100%? How is it that high when they aren't risking anything?
Not 100%? Slot crushing shock. CG now it is 100%.

You know why you think bow users aren't risking anything? Because you don't meet them in 'risky' fights. The only bow users you meet are those sitting on walls spamming snipe, or sitting on rock spamming snipe, or sitting on keep spamming snipe or sitting inside zerg spamming snipe.
You never saw bow user 1vX because it is impossible. You maybe never saw even bow user win duel because it is night impossible vs same skilled players.
When I go vs some player on my bow warden I risk everything any melee player does. Even more, because I have to run everywhere. My fighting range is 10m because bow cc is ***. Your fighting range is 40m. 30m of those I have to sprint to you so I get to fight you and you must not streak away.
So stop saying worst ranged build in the game are not risking anything while you play best ranged build in the game.
It is same in PVE, no shields like 2H or magicka builds, no blade cloak unless DW is slotted, no self heal like DW has.

So many lop-sided assumptions, so little fact.

At least you acknowledge there are places and play styles and circumstances where bows have the advantage (sort of?) and personally i find it refreshing to want to keep those and get to equality everywhere else. After all most tend to argue for balance not eqlauity except where we are advantaged.

Also, you keep harping on how bad bow cc is... and keep harping on how good staff users are at range and all... but last time i checked, the staff CCs are not all that much compared to the bow CCs and somehow not every cc in the game are not on weapon skill lines. they even exist on some class skill lines, some guild skill lines and so forth so it seems that maybe possibly some builds with bow could get ccs other than those of the bow?

Streak for sorcs, sure, but it can also be used by stamsorcs (just not as often) and bow users do have that major expedition on dodge thingy going and even the stamina to run shuffle or immovable more often so... maybe focusing solely on the cc capabilities within the bow skills themselves (one knockback and disorient, one 404 snare with possible immobilize, one interrupt off-balance and stun) one could look at making builds where better ccs are provided by the other groups of skills.

I mean, how many ccs do the staff weapon damage side do? Fire does a knockdown on one ability?

Toc de Malsvi

It's amazing how many players complain about how strong snipe is, but freak out of you recommend they hard cast crystal shards or dark flare.

"But it's interruptible, and can be dodged, you can't just hard cast that!"

As if Snipe was not interruptible or dodgable, or reflectable. If only all three of their crystal shards were negated by one dodge roll.

If a player has cast Snipe three times on you they have just spent 5-6 seconds hard casting, risking interrupt and stun, risking non recoverable resources, and all their time can be completely negated by dodge roll.

DDuke

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

It's amazing how many players complain about how strong snipe is, but freak out of you recommend they hard cast crystal shards or dark flare.

"But it's interruptible, and can be dodged, you can't just hard cast that!"

As if Snipe was not interruptible or dodgable, or reflectable. If only all three of their crystal shards were negated by one dodge roll.

If a player has cast Snipe three times on you they have just spent 5-6 seconds hard casting, risking interrupt and stun, risking non recoverable resources, and all their time can be completely negated by dodge roll.

Careful... before they make Snipe undodgeable lol


...under certain conditions, I'd actually be fine with that.

What if snipe was a long range skill shot with a narrow arc? Undodgeable, but would require aiming from the sniper (and could still be sidestepped/interrupted for example).

They could even keep the cast time.

Toc de Malsvi

Destro spammable hard counters bow spammable.

Poison Arrow tickles. Poison Injection tickles until sub 35%.

The bow is not being supported as a ranged weapon. We are not asking for better ganking, we want a better means of being effective ranged dps.

Bow is 25% behind every other damage weapon in PVE. Bow is statistically significantly weaker in PVP, weaker healing, weaker CC, weaker damage, all bow damage is completely counterable by every single counter in the game.

People on here claiming they don't want bow gankers but at the same time they don't want Snipe changed away from being a high burst gank skill. BS!

Bow could receive a 15% increase and they would still not be brought to trials, but so many are arguing that they should get no buff. BS!

What's worse is that bow needs to be at max range to even get to 75% of the value of melee dps. Which puts them as not only less than optimal but also adding additional strain to even perform close to anyone else.

Bows at max range In PVE SHOULD compete with melee as they are risking more by moving out of group stack, away from healers and group buffs.

SodanTok

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

So, according to you it isn't a distinctive advantage to attack someone from stealth who is not aware or occupied elsewhere? You are guaranteed the first hit(s). The opponent almost always has to go defensive first and the attacker keeps the initiative of the fight. That's enough in my book.

It's bad game design to allow one shots or two shots at all, the exception being maybe some gross misplays by your opponent. There should always be counterplay possible.

It's true that a snipe gank doesn't kill a competent player who isn't brain afk anymore (if you don't get to play against Warbow that is ). But that's a good thing. What I find disingenuous though is the notion that bow isn't strong in certain areas. If you read the thread you'd think that bow in its certain form is useless. The sheer amount of snipes and poison injections speak differently. Snipe is especially nasty when you are occupied elsewhere. The audio cue doesn't always play, and it's a bad design idea anyway.

I know the thread is about bow as a main hand weapon. I still think it shouldn't be on par with other weapons simply because bow allows for play without any real risk, especially if stealth is added.

As for Dark Flare it's true a Templar can gank with that too. You just don't see it that often though because DF is a bad skill in non gank situations. It's one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the game.

I don't know, I sympathize with the goal - everyone should have a play style available that is enjoyable, and I can see why the archer archetype is so attractive for many players. I still think it's tough to do without gank potential completely being overboard then though.

How can you say so many things while playing magsorc. What do you risk bow users do not? How much you risk hitting that 40m range CC nuke on insta proc or that execute that just kills anyone that goes too low. How much you risk fighting anyone when you have mines and shield and streak?

What is your winrate 1v1 against nongank bow main users? 80%? 90%? 100%? How is it that high when they aren't risking anything?
Not 100%? Slot crushing shock. CG now it is 100%.

You know why you think bow users aren't risking anything? Because you don't meet them in 'risky' fights. The only bow users you meet are those sitting on walls spamming snipe, or sitting on rock spamming snipe, or sitting on keep spamming snipe or sitting inside zerg spamming snipe.
You never saw bow user 1vX because it is impossible. You maybe never saw even bow user win duel because it is night impossible vs same skilled players.
When I go vs some player on my bow warden I risk everything any melee player does. Even more, because I have to run everywhere. My fighting range is 10m because bow cc is ***. Your fighting range is 40m. 30m of those I have to sprint to you so I get to fight you and you must not streak away.
So stop saying worst ranged build in the game are not risking anything while you play best ranged build in the game.
It is same in PVE, no shields like 2H or magicka builds, no blade cloak unless DW is slotted, no self heal like DW has.

So many lop-sided assumptions, so little fact.

At least you acknowledge there are places and play styles and circumstances where bows have the advantage (sort of?) and personally i find it refreshing to want to keep those and get to equality everywhere else. After all most tend to argue for balance not eqlauity except where we are advantaged.

Also, you keep harping on how bad bow cc is... and keep harping on how good staff users are at range and all... but last time i checked, the staff CCs are not all that much compared to the bow CCs and somehow not every cc in the game are not on weapon skill lines. they even exist on some class skill lines, some guild skill lines and so forth so it seems that maybe possibly some builds with bow could get ccs other than those of the bow?

Streak for sorcs, sure, but it can also be used by stamsorcs (just not as often) and bow users do have that major expedition on dodge thingy going and even the stamina to run shuffle or immovable more often so... maybe focusing solely on the cc capabilities within the bow skills themselves (one knockback and disorient, one 404 snare with possible immobilize, one interrupt off-balance and stun) one could look at making builds where better ccs are provided by the other groups of skills.

I mean, how many ccs do the staff weapon damage side do? Fire does a knockdown on one ability?

???
What little fact. Stop going around the bush and start saying SPECIFIC things. You failed at proving you know anything about pvp, endgame pve or using bow in any of these two in all your posts. So if you keep replying to my experience based posts, saying something is not the way I say it, say what is it and in what way it is wrong.

Last time you checked you forgot your glasses apparently. Go on. I am waiting. Name all long range stamina CC in the game. I will start with Blinding Javelin. Now continue.

Same goes for staff. Check again what it does. Then check again what other magicka CC stuff all classes have.

I dont even get why is this issue for some people. People are not playing stamina ranged dd in endgame trials. People are not dueling as stamina ranged dd. People aren't playing successful ranged dd in organized pvp groups or 4man veteran dungeons. Skilled players/streamers are not playing stamina ranged dd anywhere. Skilled players/streamers do not want to play with ranged stamina dd in their group unless it is 4fun. What more proof anyone needs that stamina ranged dd is neither optimal nor viable role for any relevant content in this game.

Toc de Malsvi

Every trial has unavoidable damage that effects you no matter your range. Every trial has mechanics that require you to stay short of maximum range.

Bows being competitive at max range would still be behind in 70-80% of fights, while being brought up to equal on the few fights where they can actually risk moving to max range out of the healer stack.

Toc de Malsvi

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

So, according to you it isn't a distinctive advantage to attack someone from stealth who is not aware or occupied elsewhere? You are guaranteed the first hit(s). The opponent almost always has to go defensive first and the attacker keeps the initiative of the fight. That's enough in my book.

It's bad game design to allow one shots or two shots at all, the exception being maybe some gross misplays by your opponent. There should always be counterplay possible.

It's true that a snipe gank doesn't kill a competent player who isn't brain afk anymore (if you don't get to play against Warbow that is ). But that's a good thing. What I find disingenuous though is the notion that bow isn't strong in certain areas. If you read the thread you'd think that bow in its certain form is useless. The sheer amount of snipes and poison injections speak differently. Snipe is especially nasty when you are occupied elsewhere. The audio cue doesn't always play, and it's a bad design idea anyway.

I know the thread is about bow as a main hand weapon. I still think it shouldn't be on par with other weapons simply because bow allows for play without any real risk, especially if stealth is added.

As for Dark Flare it's true a Templar can gank with that too. You just don't see it that often though because DF is a bad skill in non gank situations. It's one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the game.

I don't know, I sympathize with the goal - everyone should have a play style available that is enjoyable, and I can see why the archer archetype is so attractive for many players. I still think it's tough to do without gank potential completely being overboard then though.

How can you say so many things while playing magsorc. What do you risk bow users do not? How much you risk hitting that 40m range CC nuke on insta proc or that execute that just kills anyone that goes too low. How much you risk fighting anyone when you have mines and shield and streak?

What is your winrate 1v1 against nongank bow main users? 80%? 90%? 100%? How is it that high when they aren't risking anything?
Not 100%? Slot crushing shock. CG now it is 100%.

You know why you think bow users aren't risking anything? Because you don't meet them in 'risky' fights. The only bow users you meet are those sitting on walls spamming snipe, or sitting on rock spamming snipe, or sitting on keep spamming snipe or sitting inside zerg spamming snipe.
You never saw bow user 1vX because it is impossible. You maybe never saw even bow user win duel because it is night impossible vs same skilled players.
When I go vs some player on my bow warden I risk everything any melee player does. Even more, because I have to run everywhere. My fighting range is 10m because bow cc is ***. Your fighting range is 40m. 30m of those I have to sprint to you so I get to fight you and you must not streak away.
So stop saying worst ranged build in the game are not risking anything while you play best ranged build in the game.
It is same in PVE, no shields like 2H or magicka builds, no blade cloak unless DW is slotted, no self heal like DW has.

So many lop-sided assumptions, so little fact.

At least you acknowledge there are places and play styles and circumstances where bows have the advantage (sort of?) and personally i find it refreshing to want to keep those and get to equality everywhere else. After all most tend to argue for balance not eqlauity except where we are advantaged.

Also, you keep harping on how bad bow cc is... and keep harping on how good staff users are at range and all... but last time i checked, the staff CCs are not all that much compared to the bow CCs and somehow not every cc in the game are not on weapon skill lines. they even exist on some class skill lines, some guild skill lines and so forth so it seems that maybe possibly some builds with bow could get ccs other than those of the bow?

Streak for sorcs, sure, but it can also be used by stamsorcs (just not as often) and bow users do have that major expedition on dodge thingy going and even the stamina to run shuffle or immovable more often so... maybe focusing solely on the cc capabilities within the bow skills themselves (one knockback and disorient, one 404 snare with possible immobilize, one interrupt off-balance and stun) one could look at making builds where better ccs are provided by the other groups of skills.

I mean, how many ccs do the staff weapon damage side do? Fire does a knockdown on one ability?

???
What little fact. Stop going around the bush and start saying SPECIFIC things. You failed at proving you know anything about pvp, endgame pve or using bow in any of these two in all your posts. So if you keep replying to my experience based posts, saying something is not the way I say it, say what is it and in what way it is wrong.

Last time you checked you forgot your glasses apparently. Go on. I am waiting. Name all long range stamina CC in the game. I will start with Blinding Javelin. Now continue.

Same goes for staff. Check again what it does. Then check again what other magicka CC stuff all classes have.

I dont even get why is this issue for some people. People are not playing stamina ranged dd in endgame trials. People are not dueling as stamina ranged dd. People aren't playing successful ranged dd in organized pvp groups or 4man veteran dungeons. Skilled players/streamers are not playing stamina ranged dd anywhere. Skilled players/streamers do not want to play with ranged stamina dd in their group unless it is 4fun. What more proof anyone needs that stamina ranged dd is neither optimal nor viable role for any relevant content in this game.

It is very clear from previous posts that they either do not play pvp, have never used a bow in the game, are entirely delusioned. Possibly all three.

Solariken

I personally don't want to see bow buffed ONLY in ways that force players to maintain maximum range to be competitive. That would not make any sense.

I very much prefer a skirmishy short bow type of playstyle in PvP, kiting and controlling my target at ~15 meters as much as possible. I admit my bias and also admit that all of the OP suggestions support that playstyle (but also support long range).

In PvE, maximum range is rarely a viable place to stand and mechanics most often keep you moving and you generally need to be in front of the healers.

I would be fine with something like separating bow damage into two tiers, making it weaker in melee range (under ~9 meters) and much stronger anywhere outside of that.

STEVIL

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

It's amazing how many players complain about how strong snipe is, but freak out of you recommend they hard cast crystal shards or dark flare.

"But it's interruptible, and can be dodged, you can't just hard cast that!"

As if Snipe was not interruptible or dodgable, or reflectable. If only all three of their crystal shards were negated by one dodge roll.

If a player has cast Snipe three times on you they have just spent 5-6 seconds hard casting, risking interrupt and stun, risking non recoverable resources, and all their time can be completely negated by dodge roll.

Actually TBh i have seen posts about how good flare is at sniping over snipe itself and the same circumstances where snipe is good also lend themselves to both cfrags and flare.

most of the posts about cfrags hard cast complaints i have seen were related to pve dps, where doing other things for damage until the proc for more damage, less cost and quicker kicks in is a key element for higher dps.

SodanTok

Solariken wrote: »

I personally don't want to see bow buffed ONLY in ways that force players to maintain maximum range to be competitive. That would not make any sense.

I very much prefer a skirmishy short bow type of playstyle in PvP, kiting and controlling my target at ~15 meters as much as possible. I admit my bias and also admit that all of the OP suggestions support that playstyle (but also support long range).

In PvE, maximum range is rarely a viable place to stand and mechanics most often keep you moving and you generally need to be in front of the healers.

I would be fine with something like separating bow damage into two tiers, making it weaker in melee range (under ~9 meters) and much stronger anywhere outside of that.

Yes, this is very important part of the whole issue.
They way bows are pushed to long range (by advantage of snipe, focused aim morph or the passive) is punishing them and making them worse in all content because that range is meaningless in PVP outside of keep defense and detrimental in PVE.

But what's worse that even if all the advantages bow gets to be long ranged at the expense of its usability in relevant content... they aren't strong at range. Their dummy DPS at max range (so before any relevant trials buffs and heals come in question, most of which aren't available to maximum range bow player) is worse than everyone else's (maybe, and that is big maybe, bar magwarden).
And in PVP they just have the Snipe. Nothing else to do but spamming that one button...

Toc de Malsvi

Solariken wrote: »

I personally don't want to see bow buffed ONLY in ways that force players to maintain maximum range to be competitive. That would not make any sense.

I very much prefer a skirmishy short bow type of playstyle in PvP, kiting and controlling my target at ~15 meters as much as possible. I admit my bias and also admit that all of the OP suggestions support that playstyle (but also support long range).

In PvE, maximum range is rarely a viable place to stand and mechanics most often keep you moving and you generally need to be in front of the healers.

I would be fine with something like separating bow damage into two tiers, making it weaker in melee range (under ~9 meters) and much stronger anywhere outside of that.

I don't want that either, I'm just saying with the current shape of how they have designed bow, it should be competitive with melee at max range in PVE. As max range means you are moving outside of the group and putting yourself at risk where the healer either cannot reach you or cannot effectively heal you and the group. As well as that many fights require mechanics that prevent you from reaching max range.

STEVIL

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

So, according to you it isn't a distinctive advantage to attack someone from stealth who is not aware or occupied elsewhere? You are guaranteed the first hit(s). The opponent almost always has to go defensive first and the attacker keeps the initiative of the fight. That's enough in my book.

It's bad game design to allow one shots or two shots at all, the exception being maybe some gross misplays by your opponent. There should always be counterplay possible.

It's true that a snipe gank doesn't kill a competent player who isn't brain afk anymore (if you don't get to play against Warbow that is ). But that's a good thing. What I find disingenuous though is the notion that bow isn't strong in certain areas. If you read the thread you'd think that bow in its certain form is useless. The sheer amount of snipes and poison injections speak differently. Snipe is especially nasty when you are occupied elsewhere. The audio cue doesn't always play, and it's a bad design idea anyway.

I know the thread is about bow as a main hand weapon. I still think it shouldn't be on par with other weapons simply because bow allows for play without any real risk, especially if stealth is added.

As for Dark Flare it's true a Templar can gank with that too. You just don't see it that often though because DF is a bad skill in non gank situations. It's one of the easiest projectiles to avoid in the game.

I don't know, I sympathize with the goal - everyone should have a play style available that is enjoyable, and I can see why the archer archetype is so attractive for many players. I still think it's tough to do without gank potential completely being overboard then though.

How can you say so many things while playing magsorc. What do you risk bow users do not? How much you risk hitting that 40m range CC nuke on insta proc or that execute that just kills anyone that goes too low. How much you risk fighting anyone when you have mines and shield and streak?

What is your winrate 1v1 against nongank bow main users? 80%? 90%? 100%? How is it that high when they aren't risking anything?
Not 100%? Slot crushing shock. CG now it is 100%.

You know why you think bow users aren't risking anything? Because you don't meet them in 'risky' fights. The only bow users you meet are those sitting on walls spamming snipe, or sitting on rock spamming snipe, or sitting on keep spamming snipe or sitting inside zerg spamming snipe.
You never saw bow user 1vX because it is impossible. You maybe never saw even bow user win duel because it is night impossible vs same skilled players.
When I go vs some player on my bow warden I risk everything any melee player does. Even more, because I have to run everywhere. My fighting range is 10m because bow cc is ***. Your fighting range is 40m. 30m of those I have to sprint to you so I get to fight you and you must not streak away.
So stop saying worst ranged build in the game are not risking anything while you play best ranged build in the game.
It is same in PVE, no shields like 2H or magicka builds, no blade cloak unless DW is slotted, no self heal like DW has.

So many lop-sided assumptions, so little fact.

At least you acknowledge there are places and play styles and circumstances where bows have the advantage (sort of?) and personally i find it refreshing to want to keep those and get to equality everywhere else. After all most tend to argue for balance not eqlauity except where we are advantaged.

Also, you keep harping on how bad bow cc is... and keep harping on how good staff users are at range and all... but last time i checked, the staff CCs are not all that much compared to the bow CCs and somehow not every cc in the game are not on weapon skill lines. they even exist on some class skill lines, some guild skill lines and so forth so it seems that maybe possibly some builds with bow could get ccs other than those of the bow?

Streak for sorcs, sure, but it can also be used by stamsorcs (just not as often) and bow users do have that major expedition on dodge thingy going and even the stamina to run shuffle or immovable more often so... maybe focusing solely on the cc capabilities within the bow skills themselves (one knockback and disorient, one 404 snare with possible immobilize, one interrupt off-balance and stun) one could look at making builds where better ccs are provided by the other groups of skills.

I mean, how many ccs do the staff weapon damage side do? Fire does a knockdown on one ability?

???
What little fact. Stop going around the bush and start saying SPECIFIC things. You failed at proving you know anything about pvp, endgame pve or using bow in any of these two in all your posts. So if you keep replying to my experience based posts, saying something is not the way I say it, say what is it and in what way it is wrong.

Last time you checked you forgot your glasses apparently. Go on. I am waiting. Name all long range stamina CC in the game. I will start with Blinding Javelin. Now continue.

Same goes for staff. Check again what it does. Then check again what other magicka CC stuff all classes have.

I dont even get why is this issue for some people. People are not playing stamina ranged dd in endgame trials. People are not dueling as stamina ranged dd. People aren't playing successful ranged dd in organized pvp groups or 4man veteran dungeons. Skilled players/streamers are not playing stamina ranged dd anywhere. Skilled players/streamers do not want to play with ranged stamina dd in their group unless it is 4fun. What more proof anyone needs that stamina ranged dd is neither optimal nor viable role for any relevant content in this game.

Again with your skewed perspective ans self-imposed limitations...

See last time i checked, the cc capabilities of abilites did not scale with stamina or magica.

So as far as the cc aspect of ranged ccs goes, a primarily stamina for offense player can spend his magica pool to get those "better cc" at range you seem to want magica players to use.

Now of course, if the CC also does damage that damage would be lower but most of the time if you are after a strong cc effect at range you are not expecting that damage to be a key element in your overall output.

So when you choose to limit yourself to only considering stamina powered ranged options for your cc effect, well, then like i said, maybe its you not the capabilities.

I dont know of any strong magica builds and play that relies solely on the magica pool and ignores the potential uses for the stamina pool, nor any dw or even 2h that does, but you want to first limit your cc discussion to bow only skills then limit it to only stamina powered ones...

i guess as long as you keep cutting away any parts that might not fit the narrative, it seems you are always right within those blinders.

As for again your trial claims this and that and the other - is anyone claiming that ranged primary bow users are common and frequent and awesome as dd options in trials?

Are they?

no?

then why do you keep coming back to that straw man.

What is said a lot and tended to be ignored is that bow and dw combos are frequent and strong at dd in g/t pve play at even the higher levels. just like bow and 2h combos are good and strong still in pvp. Obviously, patch by patch these balances shift a bit here and there.

But it seems like you wont be satisfied until bow and dw are strong for dd in pve g/t and also bow itself is top too and that while bow and 2h are strong for pvp you wont be ahppy there until bow alone is strong too so that it pretty much falls out that everyone playing stamina and looking for strong damage roles is going to be using either a bow combo or a all bow option depending on whether they want to be ranged today against this beasty or close in today against that other beastie.

to me that is not anything like what i would call balance - one weapon for tops for stamina everywhere - especially one which only requires one pass at golding and farming relative to say DW.

I get the whole "one bow to rule them all thing" and definitely it could be fine for some games... i just dont think thats the direction ESO should go.

As for your semi-critique of the staff point about its limited cc i made, well, i see the touch/clench fire knock and the crushing interrupts which i mentioned? Are you somehow trying to tout the awesome damage dealing capability of the ice staff offensive option to get that stave's imobilizing counted into the mix when you choose to focus solely on weapon skill cc comparisons for damage shortfall discussions?

Are you?

ice staff is your believed key to easy ranged combat with staves at awesome damage output levels?

really?

SodanTok

@STEVIL

...

I don't even know if I should reply to this 'opinion' you just posted that is so blatantly lacking any experience or thought.
Just in matter of several sentences you have proven you know nothing about PVP. Absolutely nothing. You may think you do but you do not. It takes like 1 hour of playing PVP with CC costing different resource than your main to know you cannot do it.

If someone is using strawman it is you by constantly repeating that bows are strong as backbar. When the whole point is that's their only place...

No, my critique of your inability to read was not about that. I am now not sure if I should criticise your inability to read or your inability to comprehend. The fire one does knockback, the shock one does stun. Both deal damage and both are long range. If you don't see how are their better over bow CC it is your own brain malfunction.

Toc de Malsvi

I have three things that I believe are in the most direct need of adjustment.

1. Snipe - This skill is designed to only realistically be functional in ganking players that are either lagged out or inexperienced and it leads to a very unsatisfying PVP experience for both the ganker and the gankee. My suggestion:

Reduce damage and reduce flight time, change functionality to be a form of single target debuffs. Adding more penetration, bleed, heal debuff or something along those lines. With reduced flight time and damage debuffs wouldn't necessarily need any adjustment but for at least the PVE morph it would probably still need an additional effect.

2. Scatter Shot - This skill is the designated CC skill for bow but serves as one of the worst CC's in the game, both because disorient breaks on any damage done, as well as because of the incredibly short range for a supposed range support. Knocking a target back 6m when many melee skills range is 6m is in effect worthless. Dot's build into the bow line often break the CC before the target even lands 6m away. My suggestion:

Primarily make Scatter Shot a hard CC, this would be the most significant change to help make scatter shot useful as CC. This can be done through either making it a knock down or changing disorient to no longer break on damage just like fear. The range could stand to be increased to 15m to provide at least the hint of being a ranged skill.

3. Base damage or passives - There is no reason you should heal for less with a bow equipped, yet this is the situation that bows face. Not only that, but class skills and guild skills simply are weaker for bow than for other weapons. This is directly tied to lower weapon damage with skill line passives that primarily have little to no effect outside of bow skills. My suggestion:

Increase base weapon damage while scaling DOWN bow skill scaling to compensate. Another way to address this is by having either Long Shots or Hawk Eye passives affect skills outside of the bow skill line.

Realistically, increasing Bow base weapon scaling wouldn't change the meta or pull bow ahead of melee in dps. It would bring them closer however and make the disadvantages less significant. Only thing that it would affect negatively is Snipe scaling for ganking, which as posted above needs to be adjusted elsewhere.