Balance patch incoming! Don't forget about bow!

STEVIL · August 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

@STEVIL

...

I don't even know if I should reply to this 'opinion' you just posted that is so blatantly lacking any experience or through.
Just in matter of several sentences you have proven you know nothing about PVP. Absolutely nothing. You may think you do but you do not. It takes like 1 hour of playing PVP with CC costing different resource than your main to know you cannot do it.

If someone is using strawman it is you by constantly repeating that bows are strong as backbar. When the whole point is that's their only place...

No, my critique of your inability to read was not about that. I am now not sure if I should criticise your inability to read or your inability to comprehend. The fire one does knockback, the shock one does stun. Both deal damage and both are long range. If you don't see how are their better over bow CC it is your own brain malfunction.

Where we differ in great deal is the importance of this point

to my way of thinking balance means everything that is supposed to be good at X being either:
1 - best/top/strong somewhere and not best/top/strong everywhere
2 - second best/top/strong or needed everywhere.

Right now, bow maintains (and you seem to support) the second place as a stamina weapon.
It also maintains a very good place in certain circumstances you keep wanting to ignore like the zerging and the keep walls and all that you mentioned before.

But to me if you add to that current strength the ability to be best/top/strong at also g/t dps roles and/or best/top/strong at pvp straight up and duels you have made the bow into an unbalanced weapon where it not only has its niche roles where range is guaranteed or demanded by circumstance and not only its backbar support for most any stamina options for damage but also is just fine as main aggressive bar everywhere else too.

Now you seem to want to get the bow to be for all content as good an option as any other weapon, even the short ranged ones, which seems to me to be way too good for a ranged option that only needs one item and only needs one set of golding and so on.

As for your cc comparison, stun only occurs in circumstance (casters caught during casting) against certain foes, whereas the immobilize and snares always not just during abc - lesser effect but still useful and against a wider variety of targets. you do understand that concept right? Also bow has a knockback as well outside of melee range but not as ranged.

and again you may choose to limit yourself to only using one source, but in my experience using some of your other resource for some of your functions, not all and not certainly not even all of one type, produces better results. I certainly would not want all my heals, shields or all my ccs in my off pool for instance but having the off-pool have one of my options for eithter would be good in many cases.

if you want bow to match up strong as an aggressive main bar damage dealer in g/t pve and in pvp duels as compared to dw/bow and 2h/bow respectively, are you willing to at the same time give up all those other sides of bow now that you keep dismissing as not being important when comparing it to dw and 2h for those roles? You willing to give up the zerg bombard options, the keep wall shoot down options and the snipe from stealth options to get your bow to stand up right beside dw and 2h in point blank combat... or do you really want it all for bow stam builds?

Would you give up the major defile on the snipe morph for a stun on interrupt spells flavor of it?

And as others have noted, stamina dps is tops right now... not second best.

Xvorg · August 2017

Bow, bow, bow...

So fun when leveling... so fun when PvEing.

So crap in PvP.

Sure, from stealth can reach strong numbers, but that's because it's the only way it can be played is from stealth.

It doesn't synergyze with any class skill except temp Jav and Frankenstein racer. Can be used with some magicka ranged skills, but they do not help improvement (maybe sorcs cage can be useful)

All the other projectiles are magicka based. Frags? Strife? Stone Fist?

Any set that helps it? Marksman is good, but can't be used in PvE. Hawk's Eye is meh, Eagle's eye is bad, Kyne is bad, Wilderqueen is bad. All good sets are better used in a melee build (even Archer's mind). Sets that could help? Elegance?It's magicka based. Bloodthorne? Magicka too. Noble duellist? It's jewelry is arcane. Undaunted Unweaver? Same as ND. Storm Master? It's a joke.

I like ranged playing style and that's why I run magicka, because it works from range... it works nicely pairing great skills, like destro reach with strife, force shock with frags, Meteor, SAs. Ganking with magicka? Easy if you do the right rotation.

Even resto staff is more useful since it helps to recover magicka on full heavy (not to mention it's the defensive option for magicka).

Seriously, bow is in a bad position outside ganking.

STEVIL · August 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I have three things that I believe are in the most direct need of adjustment.

1. Snipe - This skill is designed to only realistically be functional in ganking players that are either lagged out or inexperienced and it leads to a very unsatisfying PVP experience for both the ganker and the gankee. My suggestion:
Reduce damage and reduce flight time, change functionality to be a form of single target debuffs. Adding more penetration, bleed, heal debuff or something along those lines. With reduced flight time and damage debuffs wouldn't necessarily need any adjustment but for at least the PVE morph it would probably still need an additional effect.

2. Scatter Shot - This skill is the designated CC skill for bow but serves as one of the worst CC's in the game, both because disorient breaks on any damage done, as well as because of the incredibly short range for a supposed range support. Knocking a target back 6m when many melee skills range is 6m is in effect worthless. Dot's build into the bow line often break the CC before the target even lands 6m away. My suggestion:
Primarily make Scatter Shot a hard CC, this would be the most significant change to help make scatter shot useful as CC. This can be done through either making it a knock down or changing disorient to no longer break on damage just like fear. The range could stand to be increased to 15m to provide at least the hint of being a ranged skill.

3. Base damage or passives - There is no reason you should heal for less with a bow equipped, yet this is the situation that bows face. Not only that, but class skills and guild skills simply are weaker for bow than for other weapons. This is directly tied to lower weapon damage with skill line passives that primarily have little to no effect outside of bow skills. My suggestion:
Increase base weapon damage while scaling DOWN bow skill scaling to compensate. Another way to address this is by having either Long Shots or Hawk Eye passives affect skills outside of the bow skill line.

Realistically, increasing Bow base weapon scaling wouldn't change the meta or pull bow ahead of melee in dps. It would bring them closer however and make the disadvantages less significant. Only thing that it would affect negatively is Snipe scaling for ganking, which as posted above needs to be adjusted elsewhere.

As for number one - snipe - the two morphs already provide major defile plus auto-poison staus or a range mark plus major fracture. They already provide a significant debuff plus secondary effect in addition to the damage. Are you asking for another major debuff added to each?

As for number 2 - i could easily see two morphs, one with the hard cc like a stun vs disorient (OR the rune cage "damage from dot do not break" clause) and the other morph being as it is now but longer ranged, full 28m range. that gives you the choice between a close in hard cc or a long range soft one.

As for number 3 i believe strongly weapon's base damage should only apply to weapon skills and that class and guild and other skills should not be married to the base damage of the weapon equipped. As for whether a passive should affect all skills or only weapon skills and so on, most every weapon skill lines has some of both. The bow's passive for weapon crit applies to all weapon and class and other skills that work off stamina while its long shots only works on bow abilities but goes as high as 12% and hawkeye can get to 25%. those are not unlike say DW slaughter (up to 255 but only for dw abilities) and expert for instance.

But i think the easiest way to "balance" this imbalance is not to single out bow for up-tick but instead to drop 2h weapon base damage down to the same as everyone else and give it passives that raise it up to its previous levels for weapon skill line abilities only ... which is effectively how DW gets there. that might be simpler than installing a new how damage if figured system.

SodanTok · August 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@STEVIL

...

I don't even know if I should reply to this 'opinion' you just posted that is so blatantly lacking any experience or through.
Just in matter of several sentences you have proven you know nothing about PVP. Absolutely nothing. You may think you do but you do not. It takes like 1 hour of playing PVP with CC costing different resource than your main to know you cannot do it.

If someone is using strawman it is you by constantly repeating that bows are strong as backbar. When the whole point is that's their only place...

No, my critique of your inability to read was not about that. I am now not sure if I should criticise your inability to read or your inability to comprehend. The fire one does knockback, the shock one does stun. Both deal damage and both are long range. If you don't see how are their better over bow CC it is your own brain malfunction.

Where we differ in great deal is the importance of this point

to my way of thinking balance means everything that is supposed to be good at X being either:
1 - best/top/strong somewhere and not best/top/strong everywhere
2 - second best/top/strong or needed everywhere.

Right now, bow maintains (and you seem to support) the second place as a stamina weapon.
It also maintains a very good place in certain circumstances you keep wanting to ignore like the zerging and the keep walls and all that you mentioned before.

But to me if you add to that current strength the ability to be best/top/strong at also g/t dps roles and/or best/top/strong at pvp straight up and duels you have made the bow into an unbalanced weapon where it not only has its niche roles where range is guaranteed or demanded by circumstance and not only its backbar support for most any stamina options for damage but also is just fine as main aggressive bar everywhere else too.

Now you seem to want to get the bow to be for all content as good an option as any other weapon, even the short ranged ones, which seems to me to be way too good for a ranged option that only needs one item and only needs one set of golding and so on.

As for your cc comparison, stun only occurs in circumstance (casters caught during casting) against certain foes, whereas the immobilize and snares always not just during abc - lesser effect but still useful and against a wider variety of targets. you do understand that concept right? Also bow has a knockback as well outside of melee range but not as ranged.

and again you may choose to limit yourself to only using one source, but in my experience using some of your other resource for some of your functions, not all and not certainly not even all of one type, produces better results. I certainly would not want all my heals, shields or all my ccs in my off pool for instance but having the off-pool have one of my options for eithter would be good in many cases.

if you want bow to match up strong as an aggressive main bar damage dealer in g/t pve and in pvp duels as compared to dw/bow and 2h/bow respectively, are you willing to at the same time give up all those other sides of bow now that you keep dismissing as not being important when comparing it to dw and 2h for those roles? You willing to give up the zerg bombard options, the keep wall shoot down options and the snipe from stealth options to get your bow to stand up right beside dw and 2h in point blank combat... or do you really want it all for bow stam builds?

Would you give up the major defile on the snipe morph for a stun on interrupt spells flavor of it?

And as others have noted, stamina dps is tops right now... not second best.

Your way of thinking balance has no merit here. Is playing ranged stamina as good as playing ranged magicka or stamina melee or magicka melee? It is not. Therefore there is no balance.

What cc comparison? If you slot destro reach you can knockback or stun people from long range. There is no circumstances except when they obviously dodge it, block it or are cc immune. Those things apply to bow scatter shot too plus it is short range plus it deals less damage and don't even try to pointing out the heal or self knockback. You embarrassed yourself as it is.
CCs that require break free are better than roots, but if you wanna talk roots there is your ice staff with root on destro reach. Before the nerf you could maybe say bombard on bow has it too and more effective, but since then you would just again be only showing your inexperience.

For any other related question reread my first paragraph, that should be answer to everything. There is nothing I am supposed to give up, if everything I got is less than others already have.

Don't use 'in my experience' you have no experience playing anything with CC on different resource

Toc de Malsvi · August 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I have three things that I believe are in the most direct need of adjustment.

1. Snipe - This skill is designed to only realistically be functional in ganking players that are either lagged out or inexperienced and it leads to a very unsatisfying PVP experience for both the ganker and the gankee. My suggestion:
Reduce damage and reduce flight time, change functionality to be a form of single target debuffs. Adding more penetration, bleed, heal debuff or something along those lines. With reduced flight time and damage debuffs wouldn't necessarily need any adjustment but for at least the PVE morph it would probably still need an additional effect.

2. Scatter Shot - This skill is the designated CC skill for bow but serves as one of the worst CC's in the game, both because disorient breaks on any damage done, as well as because of the incredibly short range for a supposed range support. Knocking a target back 6m when many melee skills range is 6m is in effect worthless. Dot's build into the bow line often break the CC before the target even lands 6m away. My suggestion:
Primarily make Scatter Shot a hard CC, this would be the most significant change to help make scatter shot useful as CC. This can be done through either making it a knock down or changing disorient to no longer break on damage just like fear. The range could stand to be increased to 15m to provide at least the hint of being a ranged skill.

3. Base damage or passives - There is no reason you should heal for less with a bow equipped, yet this is the situation that bows face. Not only that, but class skills and guild skills simply are weaker for bow than for other weapons. This is directly tied to lower weapon damage with skill line passives that primarily have little to no effect outside of bow skills. My suggestion:
Increase base weapon damage while scaling DOWN bow skill scaling to compensate. Another way to address this is by having either Long Shots or Hawk Eye passives affect skills outside of the bow skill line.

Realistically, increasing Bow base weapon scaling wouldn't change the meta or pull bow ahead of melee in dps. It would bring them closer however and make the disadvantages less significant. Only thing that it would affect negatively is Snipe scaling for ganking, which as posted above needs to be adjusted elsewhere.

As for number one - snipe - the two morphs already provide major defile plus auto-poison staus or a range mark plus major fracture. They already provide a significant debuff plus secondary effect in addition to the damage. Are you asking for another major debuff added to each?

As for number 2 - i could easily see two morphs, one with the hard cc like a stun vs disorient (OR the rune cage "damage from dot do not break" clause) and the other morph being as it is now but longer ranged, full 28m range. that gives you the choice between a close in hard cc or a long range soft one.

As for number 3 i believe strongly weapon's base damage should only apply to weapon skills and that class and guild and other skills should not be married to the base damage of the weapon equipped. As for whether a passive should affect all skills or only weapon skills and so on, most every weapon skill lines has some of both. The bow's passive for weapon crit applies to all weapon and class and other skills that work off stamina while its long shots only works on bow abilities but goes as high as 12% and hawkeye can get to 25%. those are not unlike say DW slaughter (up to 255 but only for dw abilities) and expert for instance.

But i think the easiest way to "balance" this imbalance is not to single out bow for up-tick but instead to drop 2h weapon base damage down to the same as everyone else and give it passives that raise it up to its previous levels for weapon skill line abilities only ... which is effectively how DW gets there. that might be simpler than installing a new how damage if figured system.

For Snipe:
With damage scaled down and shorter flight time, Major Defile may well be significant enough on its own. However the other morph is far from significant, Minor Fracture is all but insignificant and the mark is virtually meaning less as it offers only slightly more range on a skill that already has more than enough range.

A bleed, more penetration, or another debuff(doesn't need to be major debuff) would make it more significant. The idea being to keep the aesthetic of Snipe have significant single target negatives, without buffing its ganking potential. Specifically to this morph the idea would be to increase its dps potential to further distinguish a damage vs function morphs. It will still be entirely countered by every defense in the game.

STEVIL · August 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@STEVIL

...

I don't even know if I should reply to this 'opinion' you just posted that is so blatantly lacking any experience or through.
Just in matter of several sentences you have proven you know nothing about PVP. Absolutely nothing. You may think you do but you do not. It takes like 1 hour of playing PVP with CC costing different resource than your main to know you cannot do it.

If someone is using strawman it is you by constantly repeating that bows are strong as backbar. When the whole point is that's their only place...

No, my critique of your inability to read was not about that. I am now not sure if I should criticise your inability to read or your inability to comprehend. The fire one does knockback, the shock one does stun. Both deal damage and both are long range. If you don't see how are their better over bow CC it is your own brain malfunction.

Where we differ in great deal is the importance of this point

to my way of thinking balance means everything that is supposed to be good at X being either:
1 - best/top/strong somewhere and not best/top/strong everywhere
2 - second best/top/strong or needed everywhere.

Right now, bow maintains (and you seem to support) the second place as a stamina weapon.
It also maintains a very good place in certain circumstances you keep wanting to ignore like the zerging and the keep walls and all that you mentioned before.

But to me if you add to that current strength the ability to be best/top/strong at also g/t dps roles and/or best/top/strong at pvp straight up and duels you have made the bow into an unbalanced weapon where it not only has its niche roles where range is guaranteed or demanded by circumstance and not only its backbar support for most any stamina options for damage but also is just fine as main aggressive bar everywhere else too.

Now you seem to want to get the bow to be for all content as good an option as any other weapon, even the short ranged ones, which seems to me to be way too good for a ranged option that only needs one item and only needs one set of golding and so on.

As for your cc comparison, stun only occurs in circumstance (casters caught during casting) against certain foes, whereas the immobilize and snares always not just during abc - lesser effect but still useful and against a wider variety of targets. you do understand that concept right? Also bow has a knockback as well outside of melee range but not as ranged.

and again you may choose to limit yourself to only using one source, but in my experience using some of your other resource for some of your functions, not all and not certainly not even all of one type, produces better results. I certainly would not want all my heals, shields or all my ccs in my off pool for instance but having the off-pool have one of my options for eithter would be good in many cases.

if you want bow to match up strong as an aggressive main bar damage dealer in g/t pve and in pvp duels as compared to dw/bow and 2h/bow respectively, are you willing to at the same time give up all those other sides of bow now that you keep dismissing as not being important when comparing it to dw and 2h for those roles? You willing to give up the zerg bombard options, the keep wall shoot down options and the snipe from stealth options to get your bow to stand up right beside dw and 2h in point blank combat... or do you really want it all for bow stam builds?

Would you give up the major defile on the snipe morph for a stun on interrupt spells flavor of it?

And as others have noted, stamina dps is tops right now... not second best.

Your way of thinking balance has no merit here. Is playing ranged stamina as good as playing ranged magicka or stamina melee or magicka melee? It is not. Therefore there is no balance.

What cc comparison? If you slot destro reach you can knockback or stun people from long range. There is no circumstances except when they obviously dodge it, block it or are cc immune. Those things apply to bow scatter shot too plus it is short range plus it deals less damage and don't even try to pointing out the heal or self knockback. You embarrassed yourself as it is.
CCs that require break free are better than roots, but if you wanna talk roots there is your ice staff with root on destro reach. Before the nerf you could maybe say bombard on bow has it too and more effective, but since then you would just again be only showing your inexperience.

For any other related question reread my first paragraph, that should be answer to everything. There is nothing I am supposed to give up, if everything I got is less than others already have.

Don't use 'in my experience' you have no experience playing anything with CC on different resource

As for the bold, wow! if you cannot accept other views of balanced than your own, there is little left for you to do but go build your own game that meets all your demands for you one and true only balance.

But let me be clear, while you say in that sentence that outright playing bow as ranged stamina is worse than all the others, you yourself have identified areas where it is better than some of them in this very thread... but you seem to not be ok until it is as good as all of them in all cases even with the addition of range which from one post to the next you either dismiss as mostly irrelevant or harp on as an important element.

As for your cc comparison, the stun does not always apply right, its only when you catch someone spellcasting.

Have you ever seen a stamsorc use runecage (iirc) and wail away with dots while the cc holds? Yeah its insane to think any off-main cc can be useful in any circumstance - to some i guess.

And i must confess yeah i did not think you were actualy going to be here singing the praises of ice staff - but i suppose whatever it takes to keep the blinders going.

IMO the game is not going to be balanced or made better if your bow is as good as anything else everywhere plus it has range to boot is achieved.

Elder Sticks Online should be at least considered as the name of the game you build to suit your own one-true-balance definitions - a staff and a bow for everyone to choose between.

me? i like a little more diversity than that.

but to each his own.

SodanTok · August 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@STEVIL

...

I don't even know if I should reply to this 'opinion' you just posted that is so blatantly lacking any experience or through.
Just in matter of several sentences you have proven you know nothing about PVP. Absolutely nothing. You may think you do but you do not. It takes like 1 hour of playing PVP with CC costing different resource than your main to know you cannot do it.

If someone is using strawman it is you by constantly repeating that bows are strong as backbar. When the whole point is that's their only place...

No, my critique of your inability to read was not about that. I am now not sure if I should criticise your inability to read or your inability to comprehend. The fire one does knockback, the shock one does stun. Both deal damage and both are long range. If you don't see how are their better over bow CC it is your own brain malfunction.

Where we differ in great deal is the importance of this point

to my way of thinking balance means everything that is supposed to be good at X being either:
1 - best/top/strong somewhere and not best/top/strong everywhere
2 - second best/top/strong or needed everywhere.

Right now, bow maintains (and you seem to support) the second place as a stamina weapon.
It also maintains a very good place in certain circumstances you keep wanting to ignore like the zerging and the keep walls and all that you mentioned before.

But to me if you add to that current strength the ability to be best/top/strong at also g/t dps roles and/or best/top/strong at pvp straight up and duels you have made the bow into an unbalanced weapon where it not only has its niche roles where range is guaranteed or demanded by circumstance and not only its backbar support for most any stamina options for damage but also is just fine as main aggressive bar everywhere else too.

Now you seem to want to get the bow to be for all content as good an option as any other weapon, even the short ranged ones, which seems to me to be way too good for a ranged option that only needs one item and only needs one set of golding and so on.

As for your cc comparison, stun only occurs in circumstance (casters caught during casting) against certain foes, whereas the immobilize and snares always not just during abc - lesser effect but still useful and against a wider variety of targets. you do understand that concept right? Also bow has a knockback as well outside of melee range but not as ranged.

and again you may choose to limit yourself to only using one source, but in my experience using some of your other resource for some of your functions, not all and not certainly not even all of one type, produces better results. I certainly would not want all my heals, shields or all my ccs in my off pool for instance but having the off-pool have one of my options for eithter would be good in many cases.

if you want bow to match up strong as an aggressive main bar damage dealer in g/t pve and in pvp duels as compared to dw/bow and 2h/bow respectively, are you willing to at the same time give up all those other sides of bow now that you keep dismissing as not being important when comparing it to dw and 2h for those roles? You willing to give up the zerg bombard options, the keep wall shoot down options and the snipe from stealth options to get your bow to stand up right beside dw and 2h in point blank combat... or do you really want it all for bow stam builds?

Would you give up the major defile on the snipe morph for a stun on interrupt spells flavor of it?

And as others have noted, stamina dps is tops right now... not second best.

Your way of thinking balance has no merit here. Is playing ranged stamina as good as playing ranged magicka or stamina melee or magicka melee? It is not. Therefore there is no balance.

What cc comparison? If you slot destro reach you can knockback or stun people from long range. There is no circumstances except when they obviously dodge it, block it or are cc immune. Those things apply to bow scatter shot too plus it is short range plus it deals less damage and don't even try to pointing out the heal or self knockback. You embarrassed yourself as it is.
CCs that require break free are better than roots, but if you wanna talk roots there is your ice staff with root on destro reach. Before the nerf you could maybe say bombard on bow has it too and more effective, but since then you would just again be only showing your inexperience.

For any other related question reread my first paragraph, that should be answer to everything. There is nothing I am supposed to give up, if everything I got is less than others already have.

Don't use 'in my experience' you have no experience playing anything with CC on different resource

As for the bold, wow! if you cannot accept other views of balanced than your own, there is little left for you to do but go build your own game that meets all your demands for you one and true only balance.

But let me be clear, while you say in that sentence that outright playing bow as ranged stamina is worse than all the others, you yourself have identified areas where it is better than some of them in this very thread... but you seem to not be ok until it is as good as all of them in all cases even with the addition of range which from one post to the next you either dismiss as mostly irrelevant or harp on as an important element.

As for your cc comparison, the stun does not always apply right, its only when you catch someone spellcasting.

Have you ever seen a stamsorc use runecage (iirc) and wail away with dots while the cc holds? Yeah its insane to think any off-main cc can be useful in any circumstance - to some i guess.

And i must confess yeah i did not think you were actualy going to be here singing the praises of ice staff - but i suppose whatever it takes to keep the blinders going.

IMO the game is not going to be balanced or made better if your bow is as good as anything else everywhere plus it has range to boot is achieved.

Elder Sticks Online should be at least considered as the name of the game you build to suit your own one-true-balance definitions - a staff and a bow for everyone to choose between.

me? i like a little more diversity than that.

but to each his own.

What are you on all the time. Stun/knockback from destro reach can be applied any time.
Have I ever seen stamsorc use rune cage? No I did not. Because they do not use it.
Why would I praise ice staff, it is not damage oriented weapon, but its root is better than bombard.

The game is already balance about staff being as good as anything else everywhere. The game is not balance for bow TO BE EVEN CLOSE to everything else. Let alone be as good as everything.

You? Diversity? Lol. You want to stamina melee to be the only good stamina way to play in both pve and PVP and you want ranged to be only magicka domain. You want DW to continue being dominant weapon in PVE. You want 2H/Bow/Staff to be limited to few sets by lacking 12th piece. You dont like diversity. You like constancy.

btw I have no problem accepting other views on balance. I just dont accept your view because you haven't proven you actually know anything to create relevant opinion about balance. 90% stuff you post is wrong like from someone that never opened the game but is constantly feeding forum and outdated wiki articles. This thread is great example of it. You know almost nothing about this game.

Dont get me wrong, I have nothing about casual players enjoying their overland content and some dungeons there and there and jumping twice to PVP to get the vigor. But stop pretending your opinions are based on any knowledge. For *** sake you dont even know about how trials combat looks and you are there arguing against bows in THAT content like you know what is required there. Not to forget you probably just now realized that there is stun on shock destro reach.

Just ask yourself. Why no one that knows more than you is there defending your views... They should be more opposed to this than you are since they actually play the content.

DDuke · August 2017

The vibe I get is that @STEVIL is afraid he'd be "forced to" use bow if it became equally good with melee as main weapon.

But that logic falls apart as soon as you look at magicka builds in this game - there are strong ranged magicka builds, but there are also strong melee magicka builds (magicka templars, magicka DKs, magicka NBs etc etc) - there's a wide variety of viable, strong builds to choose from.

For stamina, there's only one build/playstyle to choose (unless you want to become an AP piñata for the opponent) - melee.

...and I still haven't heard one convincing argument on why this should be the case, especially when there are a lot of people who'd like to play an archer character - just like in other (MMO)RPGs*.

*Most of which have somehow made archery & ranged stamina builds work without them becoming something op or mandatory. How curious.

STEVIL · August 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@STEVIL

...

I don't even know if I should reply to this 'opinion' you just posted that is so blatantly lacking any experience or through.
Just in matter of several sentences you have proven you know nothing about PVP. Absolutely nothing. You may think you do but you do not. It takes like 1 hour of playing PVP with CC costing different resource than your main to know you cannot do it.

If someone is using strawman it is you by constantly repeating that bows are strong as backbar. When the whole point is that's their only place...

No, my critique of your inability to read was not about that. I am now not sure if I should criticise your inability to read or your inability to comprehend. The fire one does knockback, the shock one does stun. Both deal damage and both are long range. If you don't see how are their better over bow CC it is your own brain malfunction.

Where we differ in great deal is the importance of this point

to my way of thinking balance means everything that is supposed to be good at X being either:
1 - best/top/strong somewhere and not best/top/strong everywhere
2 - second best/top/strong or needed everywhere.

Right now, bow maintains (and you seem to support) the second place as a stamina weapon.
It also maintains a very good place in certain circumstances you keep wanting to ignore like the zerging and the keep walls and all that you mentioned before.

But to me if you add to that current strength the ability to be best/top/strong at also g/t dps roles and/or best/top/strong at pvp straight up and duels you have made the bow into an unbalanced weapon where it not only has its niche roles where range is guaranteed or demanded by circumstance and not only its backbar support for most any stamina options for damage but also is just fine as main aggressive bar everywhere else too.

Now you seem to want to get the bow to be for all content as good an option as any other weapon, even the short ranged ones, which seems to me to be way too good for a ranged option that only needs one item and only needs one set of golding and so on.

As for your cc comparison, stun only occurs in circumstance (casters caught during casting) against certain foes, whereas the immobilize and snares always not just during abc - lesser effect but still useful and against a wider variety of targets. you do understand that concept right? Also bow has a knockback as well outside of melee range but not as ranged.

and again you may choose to limit yourself to only using one source, but in my experience using some of your other resource for some of your functions, not all and not certainly not even all of one type, produces better results. I certainly would not want all my heals, shields or all my ccs in my off pool for instance but having the off-pool have one of my options for eithter would be good in many cases.

if you want bow to match up strong as an aggressive main bar damage dealer in g/t pve and in pvp duels as compared to dw/bow and 2h/bow respectively, are you willing to at the same time give up all those other sides of bow now that you keep dismissing as not being important when comparing it to dw and 2h for those roles? You willing to give up the zerg bombard options, the keep wall shoot down options and the snipe from stealth options to get your bow to stand up right beside dw and 2h in point blank combat... or do you really want it all for bow stam builds?

Would you give up the major defile on the snipe morph for a stun on interrupt spells flavor of it?

And as others have noted, stamina dps is tops right now... not second best.

Your way of thinking balance has no merit here. Is playing ranged stamina as good as playing ranged magicka or stamina melee or magicka melee? It is not. Therefore there is no balance.

What cc comparison? If you slot destro reach you can knockback or stun people from long range. There is no circumstances except when they obviously dodge it, block it or are cc immune. Those things apply to bow scatter shot too plus it is short range plus it deals less damage and don't even try to pointing out the heal or self knockback. You embarrassed yourself as it is.
CCs that require break free are better than roots, but if you wanna talk roots there is your ice staff with root on destro reach. Before the nerf you could maybe say bombard on bow has it too and more effective, but since then you would just again be only showing your inexperience.

For any other related question reread my first paragraph, that should be answer to everything. There is nothing I am supposed to give up, if everything I got is less than others already have.

Don't use 'in my experience' you have no experience playing anything with CC on different resource

As for the bold, wow! if you cannot accept other views of balanced than your own, there is little left for you to do but go build your own game that meets all your demands for you one and true only balance.

But let me be clear, while you say in that sentence that outright playing bow as ranged stamina is worse than all the others, you yourself have identified areas where it is better than some of them in this very thread... but you seem to not be ok until it is as good as all of them in all cases even with the addition of range which from one post to the next you either dismiss as mostly irrelevant or harp on as an important element.

As for your cc comparison, the stun does not always apply right, its only when you catch someone spellcasting.

Have you ever seen a stamsorc use runecage (iirc) and wail away with dots while the cc holds? Yeah its insane to think any off-main cc can be useful in any circumstance - to some i guess.

And i must confess yeah i did not think you were actualy going to be here singing the praises of ice staff - but i suppose whatever it takes to keep the blinders going.

IMO the game is not going to be balanced or made better if your bow is as good as anything else everywhere plus it has range to boot is achieved.

Elder Sticks Online should be at least considered as the name of the game you build to suit your own one-true-balance definitions - a staff and a bow for everyone to choose between.

me? i like a little more diversity than that.

but to each his own.

What are you on all the time. Stun/knockback from destro reach can be applied any time.
Have I ever seen stamsorc use rune cage? No I did not. Because they do not use it.
Why would I praise ice staff, it is not damage oriented weapon, but its root is better than bombard.

The game is already balance about staff being as good as anything else everywhere. The game is not balance for bow TO BE EVEN CLOSE to everything else. Let alone be as good as everything.

You? Diversity? Lol. You want to stamina melee to be the only good stamina way to play in both pve and PVP and you want ranged to be only magicka domain. You want DW to continue being dominant weapon in PVE. You want 2H/Bow/Staff to be limited to few sets by lacking 12th piece. You dont like diversity. You like constancy.

RE the italics - you again provide good source to highlight our differences.

You see magica dominant for range everywhere as good as anything else everywhere and you think and propose "lets make bow just as good" and call that balance. I would argue that the former is not a sign of balance but of imbalance and that arguing to "fix" things by getting your preferred weapon to be just as imbalanced is the wrong approach.

Your view of balance seemsn to be driven by :can anything best me and if so lets catch up" whereas i see that as a never-ending cycle of power-ups as each time the next "this bests me" gets raised and so on.

that is why i prefer the more equilibruim concept to the more equality concept. i dont want everything as good as everything else everywhere... that is an unattainable goal for one and also it seems to make weapon choices mostly cosmetic. if you get the same results regardless of choice in any content... where did that choice matter.

And so, unlike your chasing the next high balance, i prefer to have balance where you can have a choice that is best at XXX and another choice that is best at YYY and so on so that every weapon choice has its place - even if that choice is supporting most others as "the universla number two." those types of equilibrium and balance are attainable and then you just have to have the second best and third best be close enough to be sufficient if not the best for top flight max score pursuits.

You seem to have this mistaken belief that i oppse you because i want bow to be second to staff - i dont.

But i do want a game where choices as significant as weapons matter and as far as i can tell if your bow and staff are as good as anything else everywhere gets to be the law of the land it seems like there wont be much place for the melee options at all.

Elder Sticks Online... might be your dream but not mine.

If i was to get say a perfect vision of meaningful equilibrium balance for this game it would look like this:

Top in PVE DPS role would be dw primary builds (with either 2h or bow backbar good for different reasons)
Top in PVP burst damage builds would be 2h primary builds (with either bow or dw as good backbars for different reasons)
Second in PVE DPS would be fire/lightning staff primary builds (backabr flexible)
Second in PVP burst damage would be bow primary builds. (backbar flexible)
Everywhere not top or second is basically equal third places, right alongside resto and 1hs.

Obviously the ranged builds also get their niche long range surprise and keep wals where they are tops.

But all the "thirds" that make any sense should still be close enough to be viable for normal and vet mode play even if not the optimal choices for hard mode top score chasing.

And yes this does mean that for any given type of content there is a best and second best and choices matter and the right tools for the right content matters IF you are going for the top of the heap.

this seems a much more achievable balance goal than the goal of getting them all as good as each other plus some have range on top of that... with its never-ended cry-to-the-next buff.

Like the devs have said many times, having things that are better at somethings but not better at everything is a good thing.

just like say a mag templar makes a better healer than a stamsorc does.

But let me ask you to be clear on this... just as you seem to want any weapon choice to be as good as any other for damage roles in any content, should that be the same as other roles too?

Should greataxe primary builds be just as good at the healer role as those based on say resto staff?

Should DW primary builds be just as good at tanking ad sword and shield builds are?

or do you accept one definition of diversity/balance (different weapons produce better results for certain roles than others) for all the non-damaging roles and only see diversity/balance as meaning "every weapon as good as any other" when you are talking damage roles?

SodanTok · August 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@STEVIL

...

I don't even know if I should reply to this 'opinion' you just posted that is so blatantly lacking any experience or through.
Just in matter of several sentences you have proven you know nothing about PVP. Absolutely nothing. You may think you do but you do not. It takes like 1 hour of playing PVP with CC costing different resource than your main to know you cannot do it.

If someone is using strawman it is you by constantly repeating that bows are strong as backbar. When the whole point is that's their only place...

No, my critique of your inability to read was not about that. I am now not sure if I should criticise your inability to read or your inability to comprehend. The fire one does knockback, the shock one does stun. Both deal damage and both are long range. If you don't see how are their better over bow CC it is your own brain malfunction.

Where we differ in great deal is the importance of this point

to my way of thinking balance means everything that is supposed to be good at X being either:
1 - best/top/strong somewhere and not best/top/strong everywhere
2 - second best/top/strong or needed everywhere.

Right now, bow maintains (and you seem to support) the second place as a stamina weapon.
It also maintains a very good place in certain circumstances you keep wanting to ignore like the zerging and the keep walls and all that you mentioned before.

But to me if you add to that current strength the ability to be best/top/strong at also g/t dps roles and/or best/top/strong at pvp straight up and duels you have made the bow into an unbalanced weapon where it not only has its niche roles where range is guaranteed or demanded by circumstance and not only its backbar support for most any stamina options for damage but also is just fine as main aggressive bar everywhere else too.

Now you seem to want to get the bow to be for all content as good an option as any other weapon, even the short ranged ones, which seems to me to be way too good for a ranged option that only needs one item and only needs one set of golding and so on.

As for your cc comparison, stun only occurs in circumstance (casters caught during casting) against certain foes, whereas the immobilize and snares always not just during abc - lesser effect but still useful and against a wider variety of targets. you do understand that concept right? Also bow has a knockback as well outside of melee range but not as ranged.

and again you may choose to limit yourself to only using one source, but in my experience using some of your other resource for some of your functions, not all and not certainly not even all of one type, produces better results. I certainly would not want all my heals, shields or all my ccs in my off pool for instance but having the off-pool have one of my options for eithter would be good in many cases.

if you want bow to match up strong as an aggressive main bar damage dealer in g/t pve and in pvp duels as compared to dw/bow and 2h/bow respectively, are you willing to at the same time give up all those other sides of bow now that you keep dismissing as not being important when comparing it to dw and 2h for those roles? You willing to give up the zerg bombard options, the keep wall shoot down options and the snipe from stealth options to get your bow to stand up right beside dw and 2h in point blank combat... or do you really want it all for bow stam builds?

Would you give up the major defile on the snipe morph for a stun on interrupt spells flavor of it?

And as others have noted, stamina dps is tops right now... not second best.

Your way of thinking balance has no merit here. Is playing ranged stamina as good as playing ranged magicka or stamina melee or magicka melee? It is not. Therefore there is no balance.

What cc comparison? If you slot destro reach you can knockback or stun people from long range. There is no circumstances except when they obviously dodge it, block it or are cc immune. Those things apply to bow scatter shot too plus it is short range plus it deals less damage and don't even try to pointing out the heal or self knockback. You embarrassed yourself as it is.
CCs that require break free are better than roots, but if you wanna talk roots there is your ice staff with root on destro reach. Before the nerf you could maybe say bombard on bow has it too and more effective, but since then you would just again be only showing your inexperience.

For any other related question reread my first paragraph, that should be answer to everything. There is nothing I am supposed to give up, if everything I got is less than others already have.

Don't use 'in my experience' you have no experience playing anything with CC on different resource

As for the bold, wow! if you cannot accept other views of balanced than your own, there is little left for you to do but go build your own game that meets all your demands for you one and true only balance.

But let me be clear, while you say in that sentence that outright playing bow as ranged stamina is worse than all the others, you yourself have identified areas where it is better than some of them in this very thread... but you seem to not be ok until it is as good as all of them in all cases even with the addition of range which from one post to the next you either dismiss as mostly irrelevant or harp on as an important element.

As for your cc comparison, the stun does not always apply right, its only when you catch someone spellcasting.

Have you ever seen a stamsorc use runecage (iirc) and wail away with dots while the cc holds? Yeah its insane to think any off-main cc can be useful in any circumstance - to some i guess.

And i must confess yeah i did not think you were actualy going to be here singing the praises of ice staff - but i suppose whatever it takes to keep the blinders going.

IMO the game is not going to be balanced or made better if your bow is as good as anything else everywhere plus it has range to boot is achieved.

Elder Sticks Online should be at least considered as the name of the game you build to suit your own one-true-balance definitions - a staff and a bow for everyone to choose between.

me? i like a little more diversity than that.

but to each his own.

What are you on all the time. Stun/knockback from destro reach can be applied any time.
Have I ever seen stamsorc use rune cage? No I did not. Because they do not use it.
Why would I praise ice staff, it is not damage oriented weapon, but its root is better than bombard.

The game is already balance about staff being as good as anything else everywhere. The game is not balance for bow TO BE EVEN CLOSE to everything else. Let alone be as good as everything.

You? Diversity? Lol. You want to stamina melee to be the only good stamina way to play in both pve and PVP and you want ranged to be only magicka domain. You want DW to continue being dominant weapon in PVE. You want 2H/Bow/Staff to be limited to few sets by lacking 12th piece. You dont like diversity. You like constancy.

RE the italics - you again provide good source to highlight our differences.

You see magica dominant for range everywhere as good as anything else everywhere and you think and propose "lets make bow just as good" and call that balance. I would argue that the former is not a sign of balance but of imbalance and that arguing to "fix" things by getting your preferred weapon to be just as imbalanced is the wrong approach.

Your view of balance seemsn to be driven by :can anything best me and if so lets catch up" whereas i see that as a never-ending cycle of power-ups as each time the next "this bests me" gets raised and so on.

that is why i prefer the more equilibruim concept to the more equality concept. i dont want everything as good as everything else everywhere... that is an unattainable goal for one and also it seems to make weapon choices mostly cosmetic. if you get the same results regardless of choice in any content... where did that choice matter.

And so, unlike your chasing the next high balance, i prefer to have balance where you can have a choice that is best at XXX and another choice that is best at YYY and so on so that every weapon choice has its place - even if that choice is supporting most others as "the universla number two." those types of equilibrium and balance are attainable and then you just have to have the second best and third best be close enough to be sufficient if not the best for top flight max score pursuits.

You seem to have this mistaken belief that i oppse you because i want bow to be second to staff - i dont.

But i do want a game where choices as significant as weapons matter and as far as i can tell if your bow and staff are as good as anything else everywhere gets to be the law of the land it seems like there wont be much place for the melee options at all.

Elder Sticks Online... might be your dream but not mine.

If i was to get say a perfect vision of meaningful equilibrium balance for this game it would look like this:

Top in PVE DPS role would be dw primary builds (with either 2h or bow backbar good for different reasons)
Top in PVP burst damage builds would be 2h primary builds (with either bow or dw as good backbars for different reasons)
Second in PVE DPS would be fire/lightning staff primary builds (backabr flexible)
Second in PVP burst damage would be bow primary builds. (backbar flexible)
Everywhere not top or second is basically equal third places, right alongside resto and 1hs.

Obviously the ranged builds also get their niche long range surprise and keep wals where they are tops.

But all the "thirds" that make any sense should still be close enough to be viable for normal and vet mode play even if not the optimal choices for hard mode top score chasing.

And yes this does mean that for any given type of content there is a best and second best and choices matter and the right tools for the right content matters IF you are going for the top of the heap.

this seems a much more achievable balance goal than the goal of getting them all as good as each other plus some have range on top of that... with its never-ended cry-to-the-next buff.

Like the devs have said many times, having things that are better at somethings but not better at everything is a good thing.

just like say a mag templar makes a better healer than a stamsorc does.

But let me ask you to be clear on this... just as you seem to want any weapon choice to be as good as any other for damage roles in any content, should that be the same as other roles too?

Should greataxe primary builds be just as good at the healer role as those based on say resto staff?

Should DW primary builds be just as good at tanking ad sword and shield builds are?

or do you accept one definition of diversity/balance (different weapons produce better results for certain roles than others) for all the non-damaging roles and only see diversity/balance as meaning "every weapon as good as any other" when you are talking damage roles?

So basically you disagree with game balance, but its too late to fight that battle so you choose to kick into the last piece that is underpowered. Thank you for being honest. I wish you would choose your own thread to fight it and not use threads wishing for different kind of balance, balance that is already implemented with one exception.

Staff/staff
Staff/1H+S
DW/staff
2H/staff
1H+S/staff
DW/Bow
2H/Bow
1H+S/Bow
DW/2H
DW/1H+s
2H/1H+S
2H/DW
2H/2H
1H+S/1H+S
DW/DW

Just some list of weapon combinations that are better in PVP than Bow/anything. But keep on protecting them from the horrible bow/something domination.

Toc de Malsvi · August 2017

Been down this road before, for some they ideologically view the bow as a support only weapon. They are vehemently opposed to it in any other role. As such their view holds very little value as they simply cannot view balance outside their bias.

You could just as easily hold the view that all magicka should be support only and as such is in desperate need of a game wide nerf. You will be able to construct a vehicle of logic behind your viewpoints but only within your previously held bias.

STEVIL · August 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@STEVIL

...

I don't even know if I should reply to this 'opinion' you just posted that is so blatantly lacking any experience or through.
Just in matter of several sentences you have proven you know nothing about PVP. Absolutely nothing. You may think you do but you do not. It takes like 1 hour of playing PVP with CC costing different resource than your main to know you cannot do it.

If someone is using strawman it is you by constantly repeating that bows are strong as backbar. When the whole point is that's their only place...

No, my critique of your inability to read was not about that. I am now not sure if I should criticise your inability to read or your inability to comprehend. The fire one does knockback, the shock one does stun. Both deal damage and both are long range. If you don't see how are their better over bow CC it is your own brain malfunction.

Where we differ in great deal is the importance of this point

to my way of thinking balance means everything that is supposed to be good at X being either:
1 - best/top/strong somewhere and not best/top/strong everywhere
2 - second best/top/strong or needed everywhere.

Right now, bow maintains (and you seem to support) the second place as a stamina weapon.
It also maintains a very good place in certain circumstances you keep wanting to ignore like the zerging and the keep walls and all that you mentioned before.

But to me if you add to that current strength the ability to be best/top/strong at also g/t dps roles and/or best/top/strong at pvp straight up and duels you have made the bow into an unbalanced weapon where it not only has its niche roles where range is guaranteed or demanded by circumstance and not only its backbar support for most any stamina options for damage but also is just fine as main aggressive bar everywhere else too.

Now you seem to want to get the bow to be for all content as good an option as any other weapon, even the short ranged ones, which seems to me to be way too good for a ranged option that only needs one item and only needs one set of golding and so on.

As for your cc comparison, stun only occurs in circumstance (casters caught during casting) against certain foes, whereas the immobilize and snares always not just during abc - lesser effect but still useful and against a wider variety of targets. you do understand that concept right? Also bow has a knockback as well outside of melee range but not as ranged.

and again you may choose to limit yourself to only using one source, but in my experience using some of your other resource for some of your functions, not all and not certainly not even all of one type, produces better results. I certainly would not want all my heals, shields or all my ccs in my off pool for instance but having the off-pool have one of my options for eithter would be good in many cases.

if you want bow to match up strong as an aggressive main bar damage dealer in g/t pve and in pvp duels as compared to dw/bow and 2h/bow respectively, are you willing to at the same time give up all those other sides of bow now that you keep dismissing as not being important when comparing it to dw and 2h for those roles? You willing to give up the zerg bombard options, the keep wall shoot down options and the snipe from stealth options to get your bow to stand up right beside dw and 2h in point blank combat... or do you really want it all for bow stam builds?

Would you give up the major defile on the snipe morph for a stun on interrupt spells flavor of it?

And as others have noted, stamina dps is tops right now... not second best.

Your way of thinking balance has no merit here. Is playing ranged stamina as good as playing ranged magicka or stamina melee or magicka melee? It is not. Therefore there is no balance.

What cc comparison? If you slot destro reach you can knockback or stun people from long range. There is no circumstances except when they obviously dodge it, block it or are cc immune. Those things apply to bow scatter shot too plus it is short range plus it deals less damage and don't even try to pointing out the heal or self knockback. You embarrassed yourself as it is.
CCs that require break free are better than roots, but if you wanna talk roots there is your ice staff with root on destro reach. Before the nerf you could maybe say bombard on bow has it too and more effective, but since then you would just again be only showing your inexperience.

For any other related question reread my first paragraph, that should be answer to everything. There is nothing I am supposed to give up, if everything I got is less than others already have.

Don't use 'in my experience' you have no experience playing anything with CC on different resource

As for the bold, wow! if you cannot accept other views of balanced than your own, there is little left for you to do but go build your own game that meets all your demands for you one and true only balance.

But let me be clear, while you say in that sentence that outright playing bow as ranged stamina is worse than all the others, you yourself have identified areas where it is better than some of them in this very thread... but you seem to not be ok until it is as good as all of them in all cases even with the addition of range which from one post to the next you either dismiss as mostly irrelevant or harp on as an important element.

As for your cc comparison, the stun does not always apply right, its only when you catch someone spellcasting.

Have you ever seen a stamsorc use runecage (iirc) and wail away with dots while the cc holds? Yeah its insane to think any off-main cc can be useful in any circumstance - to some i guess.

And i must confess yeah i did not think you were actualy going to be here singing the praises of ice staff - but i suppose whatever it takes to keep the blinders going.

IMO the game is not going to be balanced or made better if your bow is as good as anything else everywhere plus it has range to boot is achieved.

Elder Sticks Online should be at least considered as the name of the game you build to suit your own one-true-balance definitions - a staff and a bow for everyone to choose between.

me? i like a little more diversity than that.

but to each his own.

What are you on all the time. Stun/knockback from destro reach can be applied any time.
Have I ever seen stamsorc use rune cage? No I did not. Because they do not use it.
Why would I praise ice staff, it is not damage oriented weapon, but its root is better than bombard.

The game is already balance about staff being as good as anything else everywhere. The game is not balance for bow TO BE EVEN CLOSE to everything else. Let alone be as good as everything.

You? Diversity? Lol. You want to stamina melee to be the only good stamina way to play in both pve and PVP and you want ranged to be only magicka domain. You want DW to continue being dominant weapon in PVE. You want 2H/Bow/Staff to be limited to few sets by lacking 12th piece. You dont like diversity. You like constancy.

RE the italics - you again provide good source to highlight our differences.

You see magica dominant for range everywhere as good as anything else everywhere and you think and propose "lets make bow just as good" and call that balance. I would argue that the former is not a sign of balance but of imbalance and that arguing to "fix" things by getting your preferred weapon to be just as imbalanced is the wrong approach.

Your view of balance seemsn to be driven by :can anything best me and if so lets catch up" whereas i see that as a never-ending cycle of power-ups as each time the next "this bests me" gets raised and so on.

that is why i prefer the more equilibruim concept to the more equality concept. i dont want everything as good as everything else everywhere... that is an unattainable goal for one and also it seems to make weapon choices mostly cosmetic. if you get the same results regardless of choice in any content... where did that choice matter.

And so, unlike your chasing the next high balance, i prefer to have balance where you can have a choice that is best at XXX and another choice that is best at YYY and so on so that every weapon choice has its place - even if that choice is supporting most others as "the universla number two." those types of equilibrium and balance are attainable and then you just have to have the second best and third best be close enough to be sufficient if not the best for top flight max score pursuits.

You seem to have this mistaken belief that i oppse you because i want bow to be second to staff - i dont.

But i do want a game where choices as significant as weapons matter and as far as i can tell if your bow and staff are as good as anything else everywhere gets to be the law of the land it seems like there wont be much place for the melee options at all.

Elder Sticks Online... might be your dream but not mine.

If i was to get say a perfect vision of meaningful equilibrium balance for this game it would look like this:

Top in PVE DPS role would be dw primary builds (with either 2h or bow backbar good for different reasons)
Top in PVP burst damage builds would be 2h primary builds (with either bow or dw as good backbars for different reasons)
Second in PVE DPS would be fire/lightning staff primary builds (backabr flexible)
Second in PVP burst damage would be bow primary builds. (backbar flexible)
Everywhere not top or second is basically equal third places, right alongside resto and 1hs.

Obviously the ranged builds also get their niche long range surprise and keep wals where they are tops.

But all the "thirds" that make any sense should still be close enough to be viable for normal and vet mode play even if not the optimal choices for hard mode top score chasing.

And yes this does mean that for any given type of content there is a best and second best and choices matter and the right tools for the right content matters IF you are going for the top of the heap.

this seems a much more achievable balance goal than the goal of getting them all as good as each other plus some have range on top of that... with its never-ended cry-to-the-next buff.

Like the devs have said many times, having things that are better at somethings but not better at everything is a good thing.

just like say a mag templar makes a better healer than a stamsorc does.

But let me ask you to be clear on this... just as you seem to want any weapon choice to be as good as any other for damage roles in any content, should that be the same as other roles too?

Should greataxe primary builds be just as good at the healer role as those based on say resto staff?

Should DW primary builds be just as good at tanking ad sword and shield builds are?

or do you accept one definition of diversity/balance (different weapons produce better results for certain roles than others) for all the non-damaging roles and only see diversity/balance as meaning "every weapon as good as any other" when you are talking damage roles?

So basically you disagree with game balance, but its too late to fight that battle so you choose to kick into the last piece that is underpowered. Thank you for being honest. I wish you would choose your own thread to fight it and not use threads wishing for different kind of balance, balance that is already implemented with one exception.

Actually i disagree with your notion of game balance, not the notion of game balance in general.

But as you chose to skip the question i will repeat it in briefer form:

Why in your notion of game balance is it necessary for "all weapons to be as good as other weapons everywhere" as far as damage primary roles but Ok for some weapons to be better than other weapons at certain roles like resto over 2h for healing or 1hs vs dw for tanking?

As for what is already implemented, my goal is closer than your is to what is there now.

You have already mentioned multiple times (most recently in your constancy rift) the issues with DW topping dps for pve group/trial and 2h in pvp and bow/staff in zerg or keep walls and so on and so on... and i doubt you are going to push the 2h healer or dw tank equalities so...

when it comes to what is there now vs what we want to see, it looks like my "this best for that and that best the for toher" approach is much closer to what we have now than your "everything is as good as everything else" is.

I mean, there are so very many cases throughout the game where different gear is better for different roles and different types of content - dont see a lot of impen armor in trials or tons of "boss slayer bonus" sets on the pvp chasers - so where the idea that this game is already setup to make everything as good as everything else everywhere comes from is beyond me.

Course, maybe your next thread will be about how to redress the lack on impen armor in pve trials play too as well as the shortfalls of 2h great axe primary healers there.

Who knows.

SodanTok · August 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Been down this road before, for some they ideologically view the bow as a support only weapon. They are vehemently opposed to it in any other role. As such their view holds very little value as they simply cannot view balance outside their bias.

You could just as easily hold the view that all magicka should be support only and as such is in desperate need of a game wide nerf. You will be able to construct a vehicle of logic behind your viewpoints but only within your previously held bias.

I mean, STevil is obviously not gonna change his opinion. He has this biased opinion based on no experience pretty much since first I met him on forum. But he do raises pretty popular points some people similar to him (let's not pretend average forum user is smart) share. And thanks to him, most these threads occupy front page for 100 times longe. There are like max 10 people on this forum that are willing to waste time to promote bows. And almost just one that is willing to fight against it.
So this thread would be over on first day after everyone from 'us' sharing their yes like every patch...

The mindset of minmaxers is always go for the best, not to get something to be the best, let alone good enough. Weak set? Change it for better. Weak weapon? Change it for better. Weak race? Change it for better...

STEVIL · August 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Been down this road before, for some they ideologically view the bow as a support only weapon. They are vehemently opposed to it in any other role. As such their view holds very little value as they simply cannot view balance outside their bias.

You could just as easily hold the view that all magicka should be support only and as such is in desperate need of a game wide nerf. You will be able to construct a vehicle of logic behind your viewpoints but only within your previously held bias.

Similarly, one could hold a view that ranged has no real advantage over melee in spite of obvious issues and so want bow to be as good as melee based weapons as far as damage goes.

As for me, i dont see the bow as necessarily a primary support weapon but i do see that if it is the go-to backbar for the primary damage stamina builds AND it has range to boot then it cannot also be give ranged damage solo capability to also equal those melee options and be called balanced.

As some have said, as long as bows do less damage, they dont have to give anything up on the way to equal damage.

but that leads to equal damage plus range plus the go-to backbar support all in one nice stick and string choice... that is not balanced that is just a new dominance.

Bow cant get to as much damage, ranged, support plus the ganking and keep walls circumstantial nirvana some want it to be and be called balanced.

SodanTok · August 2017

@STEVIL: "Why in your notion of game balance is it necessary for "all weapons to be as good as other weapons everywhere" as far as damage primary roles but Ok for some weapons to be better than other weapons at certain roles like resto over 2h for healing or 1hs vs dw for tanking?"

Oh poor you. You never got the point of this thread did you. It is not about bow. You could literally make another ranged weapon and give it all the stuff bows lack and nobody would care bow is weak. It is about playing stamina DD in range. Like magicka can, like you can in any game.

I never said it is ok for some weapons to be better than other at tanking or healing. I just dont care about them? I dont play healer or tank. Majority of players do not play healers or tank. Majority of PVP people are oriented at damage even when they are focusing more on healing or tanking than usual.
But healing staff being used for healing and shield used for tanking is 101 of RPG games. Guess what else is 101 of RPG games, Bow/crossbow being used as highest single target DD while Magic is for CC and Aoe.
Not saying ESO should copy everything to the last detail, but it is almost the only game where bow are weaker at damage than melee and magic while still being weakest at survival. And we dont even have to go that far, there is literally single player game that was half the inspiration and bows were one of the best weapons...

btw 1H+S is better as damage weapon in PVP than bow. Do you consider that balanced?

STEVIL · August 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

@STEVIL: "Why in your notion of game balance is it necessary for "all weapons to be as good as other weapons everywhere" as far as damage primary roles but Ok for some weapons to be better than other weapons at certain roles like resto over 2h for healing or 1hs vs dw for tanking?"

Oh poor you. You never got the point of this thread did you. It is not about bow. You could literally make another ranged weapon and give it all the stuff bows lack and nobody would care bow is weak. It is about playing stamina DD in range. Like magicka can, like you can in any game.

I never said it is ok for some weapons to be better than other at tanking or healing. I just dont care about them? I dont play healer or tank. Majority of players do not play healers or tank. Majority of PVP people are oriented at damage even when they are focusing more on healing or tanking than usual.
But healing staff being used for healing and shield used for tanking is 101 of RPG games. Guess what else is 101 of RPG games, Bow/crossbow being used as highest single target DD while Magic is for CC and Aoe.
Not saying ESO should copy everything to the last detail, but it is almost the only game where bow are weaker at damage than melee and magic while still being weakest at survival. And we dont even have to go that far, there is literally single player game that was half the inspiration and bows were one of the best weapons...

btw 1H+S is better as damage weapon in PVP than bow. Do you consider that balanced?

There is a huge difference between what one can setup and have work in a single player game and what can be setup and work in an MMO and some folks never get that. And yeah. there are a lot of rather confused folks who come to ESO from the prior elder single player where bows were a top damage dealer and dont see that same thing carried over to the MMO world where making things be more balanced across a variety of content types requires different objectives for "balance" because the same things that work in single player/PVE do not always carry over into PVP or group/trial PVE.

This game currently adopts a mostly "equilibrium" view of balance where most especially for gear choices such as weapons and armor - there are simply cases where for a given role in a given type of content and circumstance different choices lead to better results than others.

Whether that is the damage burst being better in PVP and some weapons being better at damage burst than others, damage sustain being better in PVE G/T and some weapons being better at damage dps, more versatile damage+healing+sustain being better for various solo play and some weapons being better at that than others, some weapons being better at healing than others, some weapons being better at tanking than others... even some traits being better sutied for each of thiose than others - this game has embraced the better here but not there equilibrium approach.

So, no it has not gone to the "all as good at damage everywhere" nor the "bow should be top like in single player games" because they dont work for this diverse a set of content and play.

So, no, sorry you are not gonna get to as good at damage as the melee guys and keep the range and keep the support and keep the ganking and the keep walls shooting and call it balanced ... at least not until you get your own single player game - literally.

As for 1hs vs bow in PVP, unless i missed the recollection, didn't you just spend a few pages ago a post about how bow guys in pvp for ganking and keep walls stuff is where you see them cuz thats where they do good?

Are you now claiming that 1hs beats them at those damage situations?

I believe there was another post about behind zergs... are 1hs the go-to stand mid zerg and shoot out build too over bows now too?

or is this another case of you choosing to ignore the cases that dont fit your narrative to try and paint it as black and white instead of complicated?

Toc de Malsvi · August 2017

There is no argument for bows doing less damage than staves. Yet they cripplingly do less damage and have less ability to survive to boot.

Bows actually suffer a damage loss when range is closed which is something many refuse to acknowledge, which almost mirrors the damage loss to melee with the exception that GAP CLOSERS are many and everywhere, and GAP CREATORS are few and pathetic.

Range in PVP is on the verge of extinction, if not for keep walls it wouldn't exist due to infinite gap close and the ability to almost entirely mitigate stamina ranged damage(dive being the exception).

The advantage of range is negated in more than half of the game due to both group mechanics and game mechanics which require you to either stack for heals or move to certain spots, again something many refuse to acknowledge.

Magicka has the full options of melee and range builds with only a slight drop off if any at range. While stamina faces a massive drop in production with ranged and is required to use a weapon that is statistically weaker EVEN at MAX range EVEN with MAXIMUM BUFFS.

STEVIL · August 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

There is no argument for bows doing less damage than staves. Yet they cripplingly do less damage and have less ability to survive to boot.

Bows actually suffer a damage loss when range is closed which is something many refuse to acknowledge, which almost mirrors the damage loss to melee with the exception that GAP CLOSERS are many and everywhere, and GAP CREATORS are few and pathetic.

Range in PVP is on the verge of extinction, if not for keep walls it wouldn't exist due to infinite gap close and the ability to almost entirely mitigate stamina ranged damage(dive being the exception).

The advantage of range is negated in more than half of the game due to both group mechanics and game mechanics which require you to either stack for heals or move to certain spots, again something many refuse to acknowledge.

Magicka has the full options of melee and range builds with only a slight drop off if any at range. While stamina faces a massive drop in production with ranged and is required to use a weapon that is statistically weaker EVEN at MAX range EVEN with MAXIMUM BUFFS.

range is:
on the verge of extinction
negated in more than half the game (i assume that means for groups not solo since it specifically refers to group dynamics)
etc etc

so why try and get bow up to match melee damage levels for what you say boils down to melee combat anyway except for a few nearly extinct occasions?

is bow plinking at melee ranges so hardening that you just gotta get it?

or is it really more that you do expect a teeny tiny little bit more ranged play than maybe you let on and want that ranged play to be awesome for damage?

instead of trying to make bow an awesome melee weapon you might try and make bow an awesome ranged weapon and get changes that make ranged combat not so nearly extinct - like say different content challenges that make ranged really good instead of practically such a major hindrance since the mobile bow ranged users cannot coordinate with healers to get inside the healing and buffing and such?

i dont get the "we bow lovers will accept with hardly a peep that range is not going to be worth a thing" as long as you get tons of damage out of your melee bow fighting?

Did bow-boxing become a new MMA fad thing?

i mean yeah, i saw that whole hawkeye-bow-to-staff for melee thing in Civil war, is that it?

DDuke · August 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@STEVIL: "Why in your notion of game balance is it necessary for "all weapons to be as good as other weapons everywhere" as far as damage primary roles but Ok for some weapons to be better than other weapons at certain roles like resto over 2h for healing or 1hs vs dw for tanking?"

Oh poor you. You never got the point of this thread did you. It is not about bow. You could literally make another ranged weapon and give it all the stuff bows lack and nobody would care bow is weak. It is about playing stamina DD in range. Like magicka can, like you can in any game.

I never said it is ok for some weapons to be better than other at tanking or healing. I just dont care about them? I dont play healer or tank. Majority of players do not play healers or tank. Majority of PVP people are oriented at damage even when they are focusing more on healing or tanking than usual.
But healing staff being used for healing and shield used for tanking is 101 of RPG games. Guess what else is 101 of RPG games, Bow/crossbow being used as highest single target DD while Magic is for CC and Aoe.
Not saying ESO should copy everything to the last detail, but it is almost the only game where bow are weaker at damage than melee and magic while still being weakest at survival. And we dont even have to go that far, there is literally single player game that was half the inspiration and bows were one of the best weapons...

btw 1H+S is better as damage weapon in PVP than bow. Do you consider that balanced?

There is a huge difference between what one can setup and have work in a single player game and what can be setup and work in an MMO and some folks never get that. And yeah. there are a lot of rather confused folks who come to ESO from the prior elder single player where bows were a top damage dealer and dont see that same thing carried over to the MMO world where making things be more balanced across a variety of content types requires different objectives for "balance" because the same things that work in single player/PVE do not always carry over into PVP or group/trial PVE.

Wait, what? I couldn't be bothered to read through the other bs, but this really stuck out to me.

In most MMOs (not just single player games) you're able to play an archer just fine and compete in PvE/PvP without having to use melee weapons.

See: Hunter in WoW, Ranger in BDO etc

So no, using bow as your main weapon isn't some single player exclusive thing.

Doubt it's useful or worth my time to debate (once again) any of your other... unusual views on bow - just wanted to fact check a little.

Feanor · August 2017

I already acknowledged bow as a main hand weapon has its shortcomings. I would be fine with buffing bow in small steps. But we all know Zos - and I'm afraid they just buff it in a way that makes bow ganking and the support function back bar too strong. If you pull 50 k with your main hand bow, I don't care. I just don't want Cyrodiil being 70% NBs again.

DDuke · August 2017

Feanor wrote: »

I already acknowledged bow as a main hand weapon has its shortcomings. I would be fine with buffing bow in small steps. But we all know Zos - and I'm afraid they just buff it in a way that makes bow ganking and the support function back bar too strong. If you pull 50 k with your main hand bow, I don't care. I just don't want Cyrodiil being 70% NBs again.

Well, isn't it already like 70% procblades atm? :P

Nightblades will always be popular, it's the only "stealth class" after all (rogues/assassins... always most popular in any MMO).

I'd be happy if atleast some of those 70% played a different build, like a bow build.

Also, if they made bow passives synergize better with ranged class abilities, there should be strong builds outside NB (i.e. Cutting Dive, Javelin, etc).

Toc de Malsvi · August 2017

Feanor wrote: »

I already acknowledged bow as a main hand weapon has its shortcomings. I would be fine with buffing bow in small steps. But we all know Zos - and I'm afraid they just buff it in a way that makes bow ganking and the support function back bar too strong. If you pull 50 k with your main hand bow, I don't care. I just don't want Cyrodiil being 70% NBs again.

I can understand that concern.

Biro123 · August 2017

For PvP at the now, I only really see bows used in three ways:
1. Snipe ganks
2. From walls in sieges (not because its good, but because its the only Stam option)
3. As an oblivion damage delivery mechanism.

Its kind of sad.

Personally I just don't like bows having so many aoe abilities.. They just don't mage sense.. How can you rein hundreds of arrows down from the sky while still shooting normally? Stuff like that makes me cringe a little.
The biggest thing I think its lacking is a single-target spammable. For PVP, if I play bow, I want the be a mobile ranged harasser.. But its just not too viable.

Xvorg · August 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Bows actually suffer a damage loss when range is closed which is something many refuse to acknowledge, which almost mirrors the damage loss to melee with the exception that GAP CLOSERS are many and everywhere, and GAP CREATORS are few and pathetic.

But flame reach is *** great as gap opener.

Even Flame clench is decent based on its 17 mts range

Scatter shot? 10mts... at max range and with Magnum's you can open a gap of 22 mts and STILL being hit by a gap closer... oh, but you can increase it's range with that too OP set, Eagle's eye... 25 mts, so the enemy needs 2 steps to gap close you... crap!

Last week I was trying a combo with magnum and LA and you can hit an enemy 3 times in ~1 sec, problem is that you can't control your knock back... you can even be sent towards the enemy. And being a 10 mts skill, one step of the enemy puts him in range for a Dizz swing.

One of the thing's I wanted to do in ESO was a bow build like the one I had in Oblivion... and with soft caps it was kind of possible to do that since you needed to use both resources to do dmg. Currently the game forces mag/stam specialty and that makes stam ranged harder that magicka ranged... Even as a templar/warden using DW you can have better results playing ranged just sloting Shards, Flying blade and jav/racer, since flying blade gives major brut, Shards snares and increases wpn dmg, and Jav stuns, and that synergyzes with Ruffian passive LoL...

Toc de Malsvi · August 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Bows actually suffer a damage loss when range is closed which is something many refuse to acknowledge, which almost mirrors the damage loss to melee with the exception that GAP CLOSERS are many and everywhere, and GAP CREATORS are few and pathetic.

But flame reach is *** great as gap opener.

Even Flame clench is decent based on its 17 mts range

Scatter shot? 10mts... at max range and with Magnum's you can open a gap of 22 mts and STILL being hit by a gap closer... oh, but you can increase it's range with that too OP set, Eagle's eye... 25 mts, so the enemy needs 2 steps to gap close you... crap!

Last week I was trying a combo with magnum and LA and you can hit an enemy 3 times in ~1 sec, problem is that you can't control your knock back... you can even be sent towards the enemy. And being a 10 mts skill, one step of the enemy puts him in range for a Dizz swing.

One of the thing's I wanted to do in ESO was a bow build like the one I had in Oblivion... and with soft caps it was kind of possible to do that since you needed to use both resources to do dmg. Currently the game forces mag/stam specialty and that makes stam ranged harder that magicka ranged... Even as a templar/warden using DW you can have better results playing ranged just sloting Shards, Flying blade and jav/racer, since flying blade gives major brut, Shards snares and increases wpn dmg, and Jav stuns, and that synergyzes with Ruffian passive LoL...

Destro knock back is much better than anything else in game but I wouldn't call it great. Players will get CC immunity and the knock back itself can be dodged. While the damage on gap closer's can be dodged the gap is still being closed every time they use it, without CD's it is neigh impossible to balance gap closer's with gap creators. Either ranged has advantage because they can keep the gap, or melee has advantage because they can force no gap.

Also while addressing the gap close/create balance would help ranged stam vs melee stam/mag, it won't change the imbalance between ranged stam and ranged magicka. As such I do not think it is the best course for seeking balance.

Solariken · August 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Bows actually suffer a damage loss when range is closed which is something many refuse to acknowledge, which almost mirrors the damage loss to melee with the exception that GAP CLOSERS are many and everywhere, and GAP CREATORS are few and pathetic.

But flame reach is *** great as gap opener.

Even Flame clench is decent based on its 17 mts range

Scatter shot? 10mts... at max range and with Magnum's you can open a gap of 22 mts and STILL being hit by a gap closer... oh, but you can increase it's range with that too OP set, Eagle's eye... 25 mts, so the enemy needs 2 steps to gap close you... crap!

Last week I was trying a combo with magnum and LA and you can hit an enemy 3 times in ~1 sec, problem is that you can't control your knock back... you can even be sent towards the enemy. And being a 10 mts skill, one step of the enemy puts him in range for a Dizz swing.

One of the thing's I wanted to do in ESO was a bow build like the one I had in Oblivion... and with soft caps it was kind of possible to do that since you needed to use both resources to do dmg. Currently the game forces mag/stam specialty and that makes stam ranged harder that magicka ranged... Even as a templar/warden using DW you can have better results playing ranged just sloting Shards, Flying blade and jav/racer, since flying blade gives major brut, Shards snares and increases wpn dmg, and Jav stuns, and that synergyzes with Ruffian passive LoL...

Destro knock back is much better than anything else in game but I wouldn't call it great. Players will get CC immunity and the knock back itself can be dodged. While the damage on gap closer's can be dodged the gap is still being closed every time they use it, without CD's it is neigh impossible to balance gap closer's with gap creators. Either ranged has advantage because they can keep the gap, or melee has advantage because they can force no gap.

Also while addressing the gap close/create balance would help ranged stam vs melee stam/mag, it won't change the imbalance between ranged stam and ranged magicka. As such I do not think it is the best course for seeking balance.

Which is why in addition to better gap creators (starting with a range increase on Scatter Shot), we need good area of denial sets/abilities. This is why I LOVE Eternal Hunt and sorcs love their mines - it creates a disincentive for people to mindlessly spam gap closers on you lest they be shredded. ZOS could maybe give Lightweight Beast Trap a larger activation radius, but I really hope they add some active abilities to the Thieves and DB skill lines someday that might support bow play.

Toc de Malsvi · August 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Bows actually suffer a damage loss when range is closed which is something many refuse to acknowledge, which almost mirrors the damage loss to melee with the exception that GAP CLOSERS are many and everywhere, and GAP CREATORS are few and pathetic.

But flame reach is *** great as gap opener.

Even Flame clench is decent based on its 17 mts range

Scatter shot? 10mts... at max range and with Magnum's you can open a gap of 22 mts and STILL being hit by a gap closer... oh, but you can increase it's range with that too OP set, Eagle's eye... 25 mts, so the enemy needs 2 steps to gap close you... crap!

Last week I was trying a combo with magnum and LA and you can hit an enemy 3 times in ~1 sec, problem is that you can't control your knock back... you can even be sent towards the enemy. And being a 10 mts skill, one step of the enemy puts him in range for a Dizz swing.

One of the thing's I wanted to do in ESO was a bow build like the one I had in Oblivion... and with soft caps it was kind of possible to do that since you needed to use both resources to do dmg. Currently the game forces mag/stam specialty and that makes stam ranged harder that magicka ranged... Even as a templar/warden using DW you can have better results playing ranged just sloting Shards, Flying blade and jav/racer, since flying blade gives major brut, Shards snares and increases wpn dmg, and Jav stuns, and that synergyzes with Ruffian passive LoL...

Destro knock back is much better than anything else in game but I wouldn't call it great. Players will get CC immunity and the knock back itself can be dodged. While the damage on gap closer's can be dodged the gap is still being closed every time they use it, without CD's it is neigh impossible to balance gap closer's with gap creators. Either ranged has advantage because they can keep the gap, or melee has advantage because they can force no gap.

Also while addressing the gap close/create balance would help ranged stam vs melee stam/mag, it won't change the imbalance between ranged stam and ranged magicka. As such I do not think it is the best course for seeking balance.

Which is why in addition to better gap creators (starting with a range increase on Scatter Shot), we need good area of denial sets/abilities. This is why I LOVE Eternal Hunt and sorcs love their mines - it creates a disincentive for people to mindlessly spam gap closers on you lest they be shredded. ZOS could maybe give Lightweight Beast Trap a larger activation radius, but I really hope they add some active abilities to the Thieves and DB skill lines someday that might support bow play.

I agree with the change to Lightweight Trap. However I would like to further point out that a significant portion of why this is an issue at all is again because magicka ranged does not suffer a damage loss in melee. If anything their damage goes up in melee.

Only stamina range suffers a damage loss in melee and they are not actually competitive at ranged to begin with so they are far behind the bar compared to every other setup. Which I think you already know but I think its important to point out for those who may be reading.

Xvorg · August 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Bows actually suffer a damage loss when range is closed which is something many refuse to acknowledge, which almost mirrors the damage loss to melee with the exception that GAP CLOSERS are many and everywhere, and GAP CREATORS are few and pathetic.

But flame reach is *** great as gap opener.

Even Flame clench is decent based on its 17 mts range

Scatter shot? 10mts... at max range and with Magnum's you can open a gap of 22 mts and STILL being hit by a gap closer... oh, but you can increase it's range with that too OP set, Eagle's eye... 25 mts, so the enemy needs 2 steps to gap close you... crap!

Last week I was trying a combo with magnum and LA and you can hit an enemy 3 times in ~1 sec, problem is that you can't control your knock back... you can even be sent towards the enemy. And being a 10 mts skill, one step of the enemy puts him in range for a Dizz swing.

One of the thing's I wanted to do in ESO was a bow build like the one I had in Oblivion... and with soft caps it was kind of possible to do that since you needed to use both resources to do dmg. Currently the game forces mag/stam specialty and that makes stam ranged harder that magicka ranged... Even as a templar/warden using DW you can have better results playing ranged just sloting Shards, Flying blade and jav/racer, since flying blade gives major brut, Shards snares and increases wpn dmg, and Jav stuns, and that synergyzes with Ruffian passive LoL...

Destro knock back is much better than anything else in game but I wouldn't call it great. Players will get CC immunity and the knock back itself can be dodged. While the damage on gap closer's can be dodged the gap is still being closed every time they use it, without CD's it is neigh impossible to balance gap closer's with gap creators. Either ranged has advantage because they can keep the gap, or melee has advantage because they can force no gap.

Also while addressing the gap close/create balance would help ranged stam vs melee stam/mag, it won't change the imbalance between ranged stam and ranged magicka. As such I do not think it is the best course for seeking balance.

Which is why in addition to better gap creators (starting with a range increase on Scatter Shot), we need good area of denial sets/abilities. This is why I LOVE Eternal Hunt and sorcs love their mines - it creates a disincentive for people to mindlessly spam gap closers on you lest they be shredded. ZOS could maybe give Lightweight Beast Trap a larger activation radius, but I really hope they add some active abilities to the Thieves and DB skill lines someday that might support bow play.

I agree with the change to Lightweight Trap. However I would like to further point out that a significant portion of why this is an issue at all is again because magicka ranged does not suffer a damage loss in melee. If anything their damage goes up in melee.

Only stamina range suffers a damage loss in melee and they are not actually competitive at ranged to begin with so they are far behind the bar compared to every other setup. Which I think you already know but I think its important to point out for those who may be reading.

There was an old passive that could've been useful for bow in close range... If I remeber it increased dmg on enemies set off balance. In a 75 ritual + 120 attro CP build it should work paired with dodgeroll + venom arrow.

And that opens a nice niche.

Feanor · August 2017

Well, it wasn't to be for 3.1.4. But at least we get the oblivion glyph meta now. Isn't that fun.

Xvorg · August 2017

What if ZoS delete bows from the game but adds 2H and shield throwing?