Balance patch incoming! Don't forget about bow!

Vapirko

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw? They have the distinct advantage of aoe dots and being ranged.

1. Both 2H & DW have significantly stronger AoE DoTs, ones with strong effects that actually make them worth slotting (Carve, Deadly/Quick Cloak, Rend).
2. There is no real advantage of "being ranged", it just means attacks are more telegraphed and easier to dodge due to travel times.
3. Half the magicka builds out there are ranged and deal same (or more) dmg than melee builds - why should bow be any different?
4. There's already a passive to balance it out (Long Shots), which makes sure you can't deal full damage unless you're at maximum range - which means that there's an advantage for melee builds when they're close up.
5. Gap closers. No cooldowns.
6. Inability to effectively CC your opponent to kite them, due to cooldownless CC break & CC immunity (root immunity after dodge roll too).
7. Lack of strong Area Denial like mines to prevent opponents from spamming gap closers & staying in melee 24/7 if they want to.

Should I go on? The fact that it creates more build diversity & thus more varied and interesting PvP should be reason enough.

Wouldn't you like to see atleast some of those Viper Selene procblades swap to a different build, so you're not fighting the same thing over & over again?

yeah I definitely want a bunch of stealthed proc blades hitting 15 or 20k with snipe. With my pve build in cyro I can hit people for 10k snipes.

Rahotu

[quote

Hempyre

Solariken wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Ya, thing is with ranged, it shouldn't do what melee does. It doesn't have the risk of close combat. If it did, (any ranged for that matter) there would be no call to close gap.

Longest range in game, applies posion status effect, (try some synergies here) a 50% dot based execute component, and of course your glyph and set procs, should you run them.

I pull 7-8 k off LA/PI +procs in pvp, and I can do that pretty quickly weaving LA/PI. And ive seen higher on players i assume built more specifically for snipe or whatev.

But ya, I'm all for a buff. Just makes my guy kill better.

Yeah but you aren't seeing the big picture. Bow is strong as a back bar weapon, which sounds like how you use it. However, bow completely sucks as a mainhand weapon and needs updated in ways that don't buff back bar use.

Ya, that is how I use it, and im ok with a buff on it for those that want that front bar love. I understand the viewpoint, I see that being a tough implementation though, or it's BSO.

Rahotu

Vapirko wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi first of all drop your bs tone. Secondly I know bow dps who can pull 35k so it is possible. I don't care about mag builds I play all stam and always have. But if you buff bow to the point where it can contend with 2H or dw you're talking about a bunch of ranged morons running around in pvp and killing everyone at range kind of like most mag sorcs. Currently if you want to play pve content with a bow you can do that. I can easily kill most solo content using a bow. The bow is best as a support weapon like all classes and weapons have certain strengths and weaknesses.

Edit: on top of that if bow gets a buff then you'll have all the mag sorcs in here peeing their pants because stam builds are ok par with them and they can no longer half ass it through content and pvp.

typing has a 'tone'? must book an appointment with my ear specialist,i can never hear it...

SodanTok

Vapirko wrote: »

Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw? They have the distinct advantage of aoe dots and being ranged.

Equip lvl1 white bow without enchant. Congratulations you have advantage of AoE Dot (it is 1 btw) and being ranged.

Having AoE Dot is not advantage any more or less than having any other weapon skill on any other weapon is.
Having range is advantage, but you cant just use it (neither the argument nor the advantage) everywhere. Having one advantage and trillion of disadvantages does not make "blahblah range advantage blah blah" very strong argument does it

Not that you could know anything about advantages or disadvantages of stamina ranged builds. You would have to play them to know em you know.

DDuke

Vapirko wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw? They have the distinct advantage of aoe dots and being ranged.

1. Both 2H & DW have significantly stronger AoE DoTs, ones with strong effects that actually make them worth slotting (Carve, Deadly/Quick Cloak, Rend).
2. There is no real advantage of "being ranged", it just means attacks are more telegraphed and easier to dodge due to travel times.
3. Half the magicka builds out there are ranged and deal same (or more) dmg than melee builds - why should bow be any different?
4. There's already a passive to balance it out (Long Shots), which makes sure you can't deal full damage unless you're at maximum range - which means that there's an advantage for melee builds when they're close up.
5. Gap closers. No cooldowns.
6. Inability to effectively CC your opponent to kite them, due to cooldownless CC break & CC immunity (root immunity after dodge roll too).
7. Lack of strong Area Denial like mines to prevent opponents from spamming gap closers & staying in melee 24/7 if they want to.

Should I go on? The fact that it creates more build diversity & thus more varied and interesting PvP should be reason enough.

Wouldn't you like to see atleast some of those Viper Selene procblades swap to a different build, so you're not fighting the same thing over & over again?

yeah I definitely want a bunch of stealthed proc blades hitting 15 or 20k with snipe. With my pve build in cyro I can hit people for 10k snipes.

Ohh no, 10k?! You can almost kill an afk sieger with that.

Seriously though, how does dealing big dmg (with long travel time & ample time to dodge/block/shield) differ from someone comboing you with Incap+Selene (waaay more dmg btw)? I fail to grasp your logic here.

Also, not sure if you're aware, but most procs are getting nerfed next patch and the ones that aren't (Selene & Tremor) don't even proc with bow attacks.

Toc de Malsvi

Vapirko wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi first of all drop your bs tone. Secondly I know bow dps who can pull 35k so it is possible. I don't care about mag builds I play all stam and always have. But if you buff bow to the point where it can contend with 2H or dw you're talking about a bunch of ranged morons running around in pvp and killing everyone at range kind of like most mag sorcs. Currently if you want to play pve content with a bow you can do that. I can easily kill most solo content using a bow. The bow is best as a support weapon like all classes and weapons have certain strengths and weaknesses.

Edit: on top of that if bow gets a buff then you'll have all the mag sorcs in here peeing their pants because stam builds are ok par with them and they can no longer half ass it through content and pvp.

Many stam builds pull over 40k. 35k is not remotely competitive. There are people pulling 47k on NB's. No on is posting Bow parses over 40k since Morrowind, before Morrowind there was one at 41k at that was well behind the top melee but required full range to get there.

Toc de Malsvi

Of course if bow gets any buff suddenly the 99% of players will switch to bow main hand.... Suuuurrree...

Feanor

Already looking forward to seeing that BS in noCP. Not everyone is using Miat's for the alert. With the same arguments I could demand a buff to crushing Shock/force pulse and frags. But I understand. The dream of being Legolas is just really popular. Also the gap closer argument is totally invalid. You are usually in stealth when sniping. But yeah, killing people with no resistance is what people want. And don't bring the snipe audio cue argument. It's bad design, just as Skoria's.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

Already looking forward to seeing that BS in noCP. Not everyone is using Miat's for the alert. With the same arguments I could demand a buff to crushing Shock/force pulse and frags. But I understand. The dream of being Legolas is just really popular. Also the gap closer argument is totally invalid. You are usually in stealth when sniping. But yeah, killing people with no resistance is what people want. And don't bring the snipe audio cue argument. It's bad design, just as Skoria's.

And here comes the magicka sorc, thinking bow & magicka dps are even remotely comparable at the moment. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to laugh or what.

Here's some news for you: "stealth sniping" hasn't been a viable way to play ever since burst damage was greatly reduced with the addition of Battle Spirit (that's over 2 years ago).

These days, you need to be at max range & hit target 5 times with light/heavy attack before Snipe even gets to Crystal Frag levels of damage.
Without Hawk Eye stacks, you're looking at slightly above Surprise Attack damage on a skill with 1s cast time.

Needless to say, you'll find it tricky to land 5 light attacks & then somehow manage to sneak and snipe within 5 seconds before the buff runs out.

But why would you want to sneak anyway? Sneak attack modifier was removed in Morrowind patch.


If I wanted to kill people with no resistance, I'd just roll a magicka sorcerer who can sustain more, do more dmg, take more dmg, kite better & drop good area denial to actually keep people from gap closing.
Yeah, that's all the things bow lacks btw

Feanor

Well, you're obviously the stam expert @DDuke. I'm the biased Magicka Sorc who just sees the snipe damage numbers when hit in CLS. If you want to kill solely with snipe, then yes, it's damage is to low, because you can't oneshot anymore. I just think having a 9k+ spammable (suggestion was to reduce the cast time on snipe) from range while also applying Major Defile or Minor Fracture is not a good idea for the game.

SodanTok

Feanor wrote: »

Well, you're obviously the stam expert @DDuke. I'm the biased Magicka Sorc who just sees the snipe damage numbers when hit in CLS. If you want to kill solely with snipe, then yes, it's damage is to low, because you can't oneshot anymore. I just think having a 9k+ spammable (suggestion was to reduce the cast time on snipe) from range while also applying Major Defile or Minor Fracture is not a good idea for the game.

You are aware that crystal frag is better spammable than Snipe and the only reason it is not used as or you would laugh at people hard casting frags is because you can actually use other skills and setup more damage dealing combo?

But I would agree there with you slightly on the 'making snipe better is not good idea for the game', because many people in zerg spam it which gets us back to first point, because they do it for lack of anything else to do. So you would probably agree wholeheartedly with incentive to make bow better both dmg wise and skill choice wise to limit usage of Snipe as spammable.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

Well, you're obviously the stam expert @DDuke. I'm the biased Magicka Sorc who just sees the snipe damage numbers when hit in CLS. If you want to kill solely with snipe, then yes, it's damage is to low, because you can't oneshot anymore. I just think having a 9k+ spammable (suggestion was to reduce the cast time on snipe) from range while also applying Major Defile or Minor Fracture is not a good idea for the game.

I've had one or two Snipes in my death recap in the 3 years I've played this game - that should tell you how bad a 1s cast time interruptable ranged projectile with a long travel time and audio/addon cue when it's cast can be.

Even with 5x Hawk's Eye stacks, those Snipes don't even deal with one Dampen Magic/Hardened Ward.

The only way anyone even semi-competent can die to a sniper currently is if they're being Xv1'd (and you're still better off getting sniped than getting incap selene'd).

The only situation in general where I've found bow even usable main weapon currently (as non-zerging non-Xv1 player) is when standing on keep walls & spamming light attacks (& occasional assassin's will) with Poisonous Serpent set. That is sad.

Feanor

It's almost the same than with frags right? Frags are a terrible spammable because of exactly that - the cast time. Which is why every good Sorc will almost always wait for the proc. Even then frags hit only if it's short distance, the opponent is unaware or occupied, or turning away running. Sounds familiar?

Yes, frags deal more damage, but they don't have the added utility. There is no status effect like poisoned applied, and there is no debuff, not even minor fracture. Major Defile would be a dream. I call that balanced.

If any Sorc were to argue a buff to frags the pitchforks would be fetched pronto in these forums. You want a hard hitting bow ability. I get that. But then it can't be spammable. If a proc like frags is the goal, then it has to lose the secondary utility effects.

As for stealth - I wasn't actuallly referring to the bonus crit damage from stealth that indeed was removed with Morrowind. My argument was that a ranged hard hitting ability from stealth simply has no drawbacks as there is no risk at all. Opponent dodges or survives? Well. He has to find you first. A luxury no Sorc can have with his frag proc (well technically you could spam a Magicka bar ability from stealth until frags proc, it's not very efficient though).

BNOC

Solariken wrote: »

Edit: Bonus suggestion:

Snipe suffers as a spammable due to its long cast time and ease of interruption. Please consider adding an additional effect to the Hawk Eye passive to reduce the cast time of Snipe by 100 milliseconds for each stack.

Snipe is already powerful enough, not to mention you can't tell where a snipe is coming from until it's hit/on it's way to you and you can track the arrows.

Do not continually buff this skill-less ability.

SodanTok

Feanor wrote: »

It's almost the same than with frags right? Frags are a terrible spammable because of exactly that - the cast time. Which is why every good Sorc will almost always wait for the proc. Even then frags hit only if it's short distance, the opponent is unaware or occupied, or turning away running. Sounds familiar?

Yes, frags deal more damage, but they don't have the added utility. There is no status effect like poisoned applied, and there is no debuff, not even minor fracture. Major Defile would be a dream. I call that balanced.

If any Sorc were to argue a buff to frags the pitchforks would be fetched pronto in these forums. You want a hard hitting bow ability. I get that. But then it can't be spammable. If a proc like frags is the goal, then it has to lose the secondary utility effects.

As for stealth - I wasn't actuallly referring to the bonus crit damage from stealth that indeed was removed with Morrowind. My argument was that a ranged hard hitting ability from stealth simply has no drawbacks as there is no risk at all. Opponent dodges or survives? Well. He has to find you first. A luxury no Sorc can have with his frag proc (well technically you could spam a Magicka bar ability from stealth until frags proc, it's not very efficient though).

Remove proc from frags and add minor breach then? I bet you all would like it very much then?

And no, nobody wants hard hitting bow ability. There already is one. People want useful bow ranged abilities.

//edit: forgot to remove cc from frag along with the proc

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

It's almost the same than with frags right? Frags are a terrible spammable because of exactly that - the cast time. Which is why every good Sorc will almost always wait for the proc. Even then frags hit only if it's short distance, the opponent is unaware or occupied, or turning away running. Sounds familiar?

Yes, frags deal more damage, but they don't have the added utility. There is no status effect like poisoned applied, and there is no debuff, not even minor fracture. Major Defile would be a dream. I call that balanced.

If any Sorc were to argue a buff to frags the pitchforks would be fetched pronto in these forums. You want a hard hitting bow ability. I get that. But then it can't be spammable. If a proc like frags is the goal, then it has to lose the secondary utility effects.

As for stealth - I wasn't actuallly referring to the bonus crit damage from stealth that indeed was removed with Morrowind. My argument was that a ranged hard hitting ability from stealth simply has no drawbacks as there is no risk at all. Opponent dodges or survives? Well. He has to find you first. A luxury no Sorc can have with his frag proc (well technically you could spam a Magicka bar ability from stealth until frags proc, it's not very efficient though).

Ok, you can have the utility effects from Snipe (yay, +2% dmg or a heal debuff that basicly is only useful against the builds that can actually dodge your snipes) & snipe gets the CC from Frags - how about that?

You can also get Endless Hail while I get the area denial mines, and we can swap Acid Spray for the undodgeable Haunting Curse, how about that?

You seem to assume that bow has any decent burst to go along those Snipes - it doesn't (unlike sorcs & their frags).

Even the ultimate is garbage (dodgeable/cloakable+less dmg) compared to Soul Assault.

Also, you can stealth+throw frags just like a sniper can stealth & snipe people. The difference is that a sorc might actually get a kill if that lands and is followed by SA and/or Wrath.

So what exactly is your point?

You're basicly comparing the meta top dog (magicka sorcerer) to the weakest archetype in Cyrodiil (medium armor snipers). Stop making a fool out of yourself.

BNOC wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Edit: Bonus suggestion:

Snipe suffers as a spammable due to its long cast time and ease of interruption. Please consider adding an additional effect to the Hawk Eye passive to reduce the cast time of Snipe by 100 milliseconds for each stack.

Snipe is already powerful enough, not to mention you can't tell where a snipe is coming from until it's hit/on it's way to you and you can track the arrows.

Do not continually buff this skill-less ability

Are you new to this game? Snipe has received nothing but nerfs since 2014 (when it was actually good & worth slotting).

It used to have 3s cast time and dealt around 3x more damage. The travel time used to be longer too, meaning you could charge a full heavy attack and land that+poison injection at the same time, resulting in an instakill.

I've plenty of those old videos on my channel, none of that is possible anymore.

These days if you're a bow user with snipe slotted, you might kill afk siegers - for the rest you're a walking AP piñata.

Feanor

I guess you misunderstand me. I didn't say snipe is op. I just said if you increase the damage or change it into an instant cast spammable then something else has to be taken away to not make it OP then.

STEVIL

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw? They have the distinct advantage of aoe dots and being ranged.

1. Both 2H & DW have significantly stronger AoE DoTs, ones with strong effects that actually make them worth slotting (Carve, Deadly/Quick Cloak, Rend).
2. There is no real advantage of "being ranged", it just means attacks are more telegraphed and easier to dodge due to travel times.
3. Half the magicka builds out there are ranged and deal same (or more) dmg than melee builds - why should bow be any different?
4. There's already a passive to balance it out (Long Shots), which makes sure you can't deal full damage unless you're at maximum range - which means that there's an advantage for melee builds when they're close up.
5. Gap closers. No cooldowns.
6. Inability to effectively CC your opponent to kite them, due to cooldownless CC break & CC immunity (root immunity after dodge roll too).
7. Lack of strong Area Denial like mines to prevent opponents from spamming gap closers & staying in melee 24/7 if they want to.

Should I go on? The fact that it creates more build diversity & thus more varied and interesting PvP should be reason enough.

Wouldn't you like to see at least some of those Viper Selene procblades swap to a different build, so you're not fighting the same thing over & over again?

Tasking these 1 by 1 with the POV of the question which was "Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw?"

1 - As i recall the rend and the knife are both more limited in terms of targets area and the rend is an ultimate. At best this comparison is one more limited dot aoe for 2h and DW vs two for bow in the aoe dot dept. Edge there goes to bow.

2 - There are plenty of advantages to being ranged esp against enemies with area denial or who move around enough to make you have to relocated from time to time. ranged means you can keep firing. ranged means less standing in stupid.

3 - Question is about staminas not magicas.

4 - Did you compare that to the advantage that bows have when they are not close up? What is the typical DPS drop for DW at 20m? Hint the advantage is not just the long shots passive.

5 - Not everything has gap closers and spamming "abilities" is a tad more difficult these days.

6 - Maybe no cooldown but definitely stamina cost on those break frees and of course possibilities for ooptions when you include class skills as you seem want to do with 2h and dw comparisons. if you are building around a kiting and long range attack plan, you can build for it and they may have counters or may not. there is no silver bullet that works everywhere.

7 - yeah Ok you got us there since DW and 2h both have the ability to drop mines and... wait oh what... mines are a class skill that any of the three could be using? uhhh...

Ok so right now Dw/bow still works well for pve dps and 2h/bow still works well for pvp so i return to if bow/bow was a "on par" dps pve wise for dw/bow and if bow/bow was a "on par" pvp-wise for 2h/bow why would someone run a primarily melee build using the extra skills spent on dw or 2h lines for stamina at all?

RIght now a stam dk build with dots-a-plenty and light and heavy attacks thrown in plus its buffs is an incredibly strong competitor for top end performance and marrying that with a stronger bow seems to not necessarily be a move for balance.

Aedaryl

Bow being buffed, OK.

But snipe need to be carefully buffed. The sound effect is bugged most of the time, and it's already too easy to focus any magicka build and use 15k+ damage from the other side of tamriel while being sneaky.

Snipe as a spamable need to be carefully done, buff the cast time, but descrease the damage. Instant frag spamable skill can't happen.

Solariken

Aedaryl wrote: »

Bow being buffed, OK.

But snipe need to be carefully buffed. The sound effect is bugged most of the time, and it's already too easy to focus any magicka build and use 15k+ damage from the other side of tamriel while being sneaky.

Snipe as a spamable need to be carefully done, buff the cast time, but descrease the damage. Instant frag spamable skill can't happen.

But most people agree that snipe doesn't need a buff as an opener, only as a sustained spammable, hence the suggestion I added to the OP for Hawk Eye to gradually reduce the cast time up to .5 seconds.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

I guess you misunderstand me. I didn't say snipe is op. I just said if you increase the damage or change it into an instant cast spammable then something else has to be taken away to not make it OP then.

So instant cast frag (or warden bird) is fine, but instant cast snipe would immediately be op? Got to love this sorc logic.

If there was any build that actually deserved a strong/borderline op skill to make it competitive or even worth playing, that'd be the bow builds.

As a sorcerer you have no right to complain about Snipe, when it takes two of them even with 5x Hawk Eye stacks to break a single shield, while it takes any magicka build one Soul Assault to kill a sniper.

Aedaryl

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I guess you misunderstand me. I didn't say snipe is op. I just said if you increase the damage or change it into an instant cast spammable then something else has to be taken away to not make it OP then.

So instant cast frag (or warden bird) is fine, but instant cast snipe would immediately be op? Got to love this sorc logic.

If there was any build that actually deserved a strong/borderline op skill to make it competitive or even worth playing, that'd be the bow builds.

As a sorcerer you have no right to complain about Snipe, when it takes two of them even with 5x Hawk Eye stacks to break a single shield, while it takes any magicka build one Soul Assault to kill a sniper.

The point is crystal frag is a proc and not a spammable, and have a visual indicator before you use it.

Also, having a bow is used because it's give major speed buff and because of Poison injection, a pretty good skill.

How much is snipe tooltip damage with a buffed decent non proc build ? I only see 15k+ in my recap, but I would like to know if it's a "special build" or just a noob spamming it whitout knowing what it does.

Tell me how big it is

SodanTok

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I guess you misunderstand me. I didn't say snipe is op. I just said if you increase the damage or change it into an instant cast spammable then something else has to be taken away to not make it OP then.

So instant cast frag (or warden bird) is fine, but instant cast snipe would immediately be op? Got to love this sorc logic.

If there was any build that actually deserved a strong/borderline op skill to make it competitive or even worth playing, that'd be the bow builds.

As a sorcerer you have no right to complain about Snipe, when it takes two of them even with 5x Hawk Eye stacks to break a single shield, while it takes any magicka build one Soul Assault to kill a sniper.

The point is crystal frag is a proc and not a spammable, and have a visual indicator before you use it.

Also, having a bow is used because it's give major speed buff and because of Poison injection, a pretty good skill.

How much is snipe tooltip damage with a buffed decent non proc build ? I only see 15k+ in my recap, but I would like to know if it's a "special build" or just a noob spamming it whitout knowing what it does.

Tell me how big it is

As big as dizzy swing and unprocced crystal frag
//edit: dizzy swing would have higher tooltip because of 2H weapon damage

Also can we move away from snipe. While it is very problematic skill because it is almost useless outside of zerg and gank and with Miat addon, it is barely small part of everything that is wrong with bow... like tooltip of vigor being 1-2k less than same build on 2H




@STEVIL why is anybody playing melee stamina at all when they can play ranged magicka because range is such a huge advantage

DDuke

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw? They have the distinct advantage of aoe dots and being ranged.

1. Both 2H & DW have significantly stronger AoE DoTs, ones with strong effects that actually make them worth slotting (Carve, Deadly/Quick Cloak, Rend).
2. There is no real advantage of "being ranged", it just means attacks are more telegraphed and easier to dodge due to travel times.
3. Half the magicka builds out there are ranged and deal same (or more) dmg than melee builds - why should bow be any different?
4. There's already a passive to balance it out (Long Shots), which makes sure you can't deal full damage unless you're at maximum range - which means that there's an advantage for melee builds when they're close up.
5. Gap closers. No cooldowns.
6. Inability to effectively CC your opponent to kite them, due to cooldownless CC break & CC immunity (root immunity after dodge roll too).
7. Lack of strong Area Denial like mines to prevent opponents from spamming gap closers & staying in melee 24/7 if they want to.

Should I go on? The fact that it creates more build diversity & thus more varied and interesting PvP should be reason enough.

Wouldn't you like to see at least some of those Viper Selene procblades swap to a different build, so you're not fighting the same thing over & over again?

Tasking these 1 by 1 with the POV of the question which was "Why should bows be on par with 2H and dw?"

1 - As i recall the rend and the knife are both more limited in terms of targets area and the rend is an ultimate. At best this comparison is one more limited dot aoe for 2h and DW vs two for bow in the aoe dot dept. Edge there goes to bow.

2 - There are plenty of advantages to being ranged esp against enemies with area denial or who move around enough to make you have to relocated from time to time. ranged means you can keep firing. ranged means less standing in stupid.

3 - Question is about staminas not magicas.

4 - Did you compare that to the advantage that bows have when they are not close up? What is the typical DPS drop for DW at 20m? Hint the advantage is not just the long shots passive.

5 - Not everything has gap closers and spamming "abilities" is a tad more difficult these days.

6 - Maybe no cooldown but definitely stamina cost on those break frees and of course possibilities for ooptions when you include class skills as you seem want to do with 2h and dw comparisons. if you are building around a kiting and long range attack plan, you can build for it and they may have counters or may not. there is no silver bullet that works everywhere.

7 - yeah Ok you got us there since DW and 2h both have the ability to drop mines and... wait oh what... mines are a class skill that any of the three could be using? uhhh...

Ok so right now Dw/bow still works well for pve dps and 2h/bow still works well for pvp so i return to if bow/bow was a "on par" dps pve wise for dw/bow and if bow/bow was a "on par" pvp-wise for 2h/bow why would someone run a primarily melee build using the extra skills spent on dw or 2h lines for stamina at all?

RIght now a stam dk build with dots-a-plenty and light and heavy attacks thrown in plus its buffs is an incredibly strong competitor for top end performance and marrying that with a stronger bow seems to not necessarily be a move for balance.

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

1. What are you talking about? Both Carve and Deadly Cloak deal much more DoT damage than Acid Spray - Endless Hail is a ground AoE, not something you can keep on your opponent. And here's the thing: Carve and Deadly Cloak actually do something (ulti regen & 20% AoE dmg reduction respectively) - Acid Spray does nothing, it's garbage.

2. Being ranged as a stamina build means you forfeit any possibility of getting kills (except afk siege potatoes), while risking getting melted at any second by undodgeable *** and gap closer spamming melee builds.

3. Question is about game balance. Why would anyone decide to play a stamina ranged build if magicka ranged (and stamina/magicka melee) builds were better in every way imaginable? Seriously, you're allowed to think. Sheesh...

4. Actually I'm fairly sure I can outdps bow with Flying Blade when on DW bar, especially if they waste time trying to land a 4-5k snipe. Oh, and there's still these things such as gap closers, roots, snares that mean "ranged" doesn't exist most of the time after you engage in combat.

5. If you don't slot a gap closer as a melee only build, that's on you. Spamming abilities is hard only for bad builds & dmg heavy gank builds.

6. Actually there is a silver bullet that works everywhere, it's called magicka sorcerer.
You might also want to try something like heavy armor Fury+Legion melee stam build, any other magicka build or even a medium armor melee gank build - all of them work better than bow builds at the moment.

7. What? Mines are a magicka sorcerer skill - you don't use them with a stamina build <.<


And why would anyone play DW or 2H if bow was on par with them... IDK, MAYBE BECAUSE THEY LIKE PLAYING DW OR 2H?

You don't seem to understand what "on par" means, it means "equally good" - not better, not worse.

And no, stamina DK DoTs have absolutely no synergy with bow builds - they are all melee range which should be fairly obvious to anyone.

STEVIL

SodanTok wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I guess you misunderstand me. I didn't say snipe is op. I just said if you increase the damage or change it into an instant cast spammable then something else has to be taken away to not make it OP then.

So instant cast frag (or warden bird) is fine, but instant cast snipe would immediately be op? Got to love this sorc logic.

If there was any build that actually deserved a strong/borderline op skill to make it competitive or even worth playing, that'd be the bow builds.

As a sorcerer you have no right to complain about Snipe, when it takes two of them even with 5x Hawk Eye stacks to break a single shield, while it takes any magicka build one Soul Assault to kill a sniper.

The point is crystal frag is a proc and not a spammable, and have a visual indicator before you use it.

Also, having a bow is used because it's give major speed buff and because of Poison injection, a pretty good skill.

How much is snipe tooltip damage with a buffed decent non proc build ? I only see 15k+ in my recap, but I would like to know if it's a "special build" or just a noob spamming it whitout knowing what it does.

Tell me how big it is

As big as dizzy swing and unprocced crystal frag
//edit: dizzy swing would have higher tooltip because of 2H weapon damage

Also can we move away from snipe. While it is very problematic skill because it is almost useless outside of zerg and gank and with Miat addon, it is barely small part of everything that is wrong with bow... like tooltip of vigor being 1-2k less than same build on 2H




@STEVIL why is anybody playing melee stamina at all when they can play ranged magicka because range is such a huge advantage

The difference between magica and stamina would be for instance having more stamina for cc, block and dodge all of which are critical in certain cases.

But again, the calls here are not to raise bow to magica weapons levels - we will note that staff like bow has less base weapon damage than 2h.

So, again you avoid the question - if i can get the same performance levels - not sub-par - as 2h/bow and dw/bow with bow/bow and not be shackled to close range and not have to spend on two-skill lines, why would we need dw or 2h?

Right now with 2h/bow and dw/bow being both very strong and both outperforming dw/dw or 2h/2h it seems odd to be wanting to buff bow to match the dw/bow and 2h/bow levels and call it balance.

right now bow is in the place of "best second bar" for stamina build and also provides ranged options for where those are necessary for stamina builds. that seems to give it a solid but not domineering place at the table.

STEVIL

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

Starts off with attempt to directly insult the poster - not surprising at all. that brings so much to the discussion.

DDuke

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

Starts off with attempt to directly insult the poster - not surprising at all. that brings so much to the discussion.

With all due respect, considering how far off base you've been regarding pretty much everything - that was the most polite way to describe the situation.

Your posts aren't much of a "discussion" when you ignore everything others write (even the most obvious facts) and spout your own weird perceptions of things - perhaps you could try listening to people who actually play stamina builds before you start (rather obnoxiously) shouting what weapon they should/should not use on main bar?

Bladerunner1

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi first of all drop your bs tone. Secondly I know bow dps who can pull 35k so it is possible. I don't care about mag builds I play all stam and always have. But if you buff bow to the point where it can contend with 2H or dw you're talking about a bunch of ranged morons running around in pvp and killing everyone at range kind of like most mag sorcs. Currently if you want to play pve content with a bow you can do that. I can easily kill most solo content using a bow. The bow is best as a support weapon like all classes and weapons have certain strengths and weaknesses.

Edit: on top of that if bow gets a buff then you'll have all the mag sorcs in here peeing their pants because stam builds are ok par with them and they can no longer half ass it through content and pvp.

Many stam builds pull over 40k. 35k is not remotely competitive. There are people pulling 47k on NB's. No on is posting Bow parses over 40k since Morrowind, before Morrowind there was one at 41k at that was well behind the top melee but required full range to get there.

Has anyone even seen a bow/bow parse since Morrowind? 40k or even 35k? I'm thinking bows weren't lifted the same amount as melee stamina options after the big changes to additive CPs.

Feanor

DDuke wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ah, another clueless sorcerer - what a surprise...

Starts off with attempt to directly insult the poster - not surprising at all. that brings so much to the discussion.

With all due respect, considering how far off base you've been regarding pretty much everything - that was the most polite way to describe the situation.

Your posts aren't much of a "discussion" when you ignore everything others write (even the most obvious facts) and spout your own weird perceptions of things - perhaps you could try listening to people who actually play stamina builds before you start (rather obnoxiously) shouting what weapon they should/should not use on main bar?

He's not so different from you then one might add. You just acknowledge what falls into your category of view and what says what you are claiming. Your perception is main bow as weapon is too weak. That may be so. But you completely discard anyone saying buffs must be done very warily because it can be OP very quickly.