Surely a healer shouldn't pull 55 % of the group dps?

timidobserver

Templar do excellent AoE Dps, but the the DDs were slacking a bit if you got 55%+ consistently throughout the dungeon.

coop500

Bouldercleave wrote: »

This thread is why I solo exclusively.

With no learning curve for group content coupled with the rampant elitism, there is no way in hell that I'm going to put myself through that hell.

No one wants to actually do content anyway - they just want to quick run and steamroll everything to grind the gear. I seriously do not understand the premise behind that.

Me neither, I hate speed runs, I rather run a dungeon with 3 noobs then 3 bratty elitist speed runners.

Speed runners ruins the whole dungeon experience for me, I may just start leaving groups if they refuse to slow down for two seconds and open those obvious, in plain sight chests.

redshirt_49

Low level DPS without gear setups and strong passives (and often no CPs either) aren't going to pull large damage numbers.
Why even expect them to?

Fuxo

Exactly this. That light attacking you see all the time in PUGs is just an outcome of an unnecessary difficult resource management. As a healer I usually do 60-70% and as a tank 40-50% of the group DPS. Sure, I use more dps oriented setup now. Otherwise I would never finish some dungeons with PUGs.

LadyNalcarya

redshirt_49 wrote: »

Low level DPS without gear setups and strong passives (and often no CPs either) aren't going to pull large damage numbers.
Why even expect them to?

Low dps dds are not always low levels.
Last time I pugged in Grahtwood, for example, there was a 500+ cp dd sorc, who havent even tried to use any abilities, he was just spamming light attacks with occassional heavy/medium.
It was Darkshade 2, and I havent seen so many netches in ages. I quit the group, as it was insanely mind-numbing and that sorc claimed that he doesnt need abilities since he does 30+k dps anyway (even though our group dps was less than that, with all the aoe from my ele wall and other dds abilities).
Well, I guess thats what we get after those dolmen grinding trains.

LadyNalcarya

Fuxo wrote: »

Exactly this. That light attacking you see all the time in PUGs is just an outcome of an unnecessary difficult resource management. As a healer I usually do 60-70% and as a tank 40-50% of the group DPS. Sure, I use more dps oriented setup now. Otherwise I would never finish some dungeons with PUGs.

Yes, resource management changed crippled many casual players.
And this "grind 630 cps asap" motto doesnt really help. People think that when they grind 300+ cps, their dps will skyrocket. Of course, it doesnt... I actually think that the game shouldnt show any cps above gear cap (160), it just causes unnessesary assumptions and pug "elitism".

Kanar

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Oh, and survival is a part of dps role. Everyone has access to harness magicka/vigor/etc. Of course, theres a healer and tank, but they cannot save dds from standing in stupid or ignoring mechanics.

Right, damage role also does healers role and tanks role (we heal ourselves, shield ourselves, and pull agro especially from adds while the tank is sitting on the boss blocking and getting healed). Therefore, it's also the role of healers and tanks to do damage (or contribute the equivalent in damage buffs).

Regarding the observation about DPS role being casual and easy, I guess you play a magika class.

AlMcFly

Yep. I feel like it's always been like that. I've always played 100% full Stamplar tank (no hybrid) and it's not uncommon in PUGs for me to be the top damage dealer (sometimes more than the two DPS combined). Trust me, my numbers are not impressive either. It doesn't bother me in most Normal mode dungeons where we can faceroll through. The tough Normals and Vets, it gets really really annoying. Some DPS contribute nothing to a party.

Ballzy321

And don't call me surely

tinythinker

As has been said expectations for pugs should be realistic. If you don't have the time and patience for a pug don't queue for one.

DPS comes from: knowledge of game mechanics, familiarity with content, character level, character configuration, gear sets, gear level, rotations, cast speed (how fast you click, inherent cast time, animation cancelling), how well a tank gathers-controls-places targets, healing support and buffs from other players, frequency of interruption from enemy mechanics, confidence, and effort made during the fight.

Many of those in turn depend on how much time you can and will spend playing and can be affected by physical and neurological issues. Not knowing then why most factors are the way they are regarding a random stranger I tend to rate effort (including willingness to learn and consider friendly advice) highest when considering how good or bad a group is.

And as someone who has played this game for 3+ years I still do very, very low DPS so I normally don't take that role in either pugs or premades. I think I did a run of a normal Craglorn trial early spring this year and my average boss DPS was somewhere between 10.5-12k.

humpalicous

I think the major issue here is casual players not knowing how to maximize the potential of their build, and it's their responsibility to address this.

I was very polite to the group, I don't believe in elitism (if that's the correct phrase), I tried to uncover the root of their damage issues. But they were highly unresponsive, which is very weird since they were high CP players.

Anyway, my healer is geared towards dealing damage when my HoT's are cast and running to speed up the dungeon run, but a consistent 55 % dps load seems to be overkill. Take my main stamina DD for example:

He's a stam sorc and I get genuinely sad when I don't pull 45 % of the dps, I get mad at myself when falling below 25k single target self-buffed, and I don't consider myself a great player at all. I can complete the harder content in the game no sweat, but I don't work on my rotation every day and improve my game like the pro's.

Then it just baffles me when a high CP player (400+) can't get above a consistent 10k single target self buffed.

In the end I guess it's about having fun though, but spending 10+ minutes on a 4 man boss is not fun in my book, that's just straining on my eyes for a very mediocre reward.

Haha, just wanted to share that healing experience, hopefully I can share something more cheerful after tonight

humpalicous

Ballzy321 wrote: »

And don't call me surely

Just waited for someone to do this

Tryxus

Ooh, reminds me of the time in Wayrest Sewers 2 Vet where our group DPS was so low, I had to use Destro Ulti and Lightning Blockade on my healer just to help with the DPS while also keeping them alive for every boss fight (each lasted about 15 mins btw)

Jamini

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

76.9% of DPS as the tank:

(Yes, saptanks have more DPS than your typical tank, and my attributes and CP are set up for DPS. But still, I was in heavy armor with sword-and-board and 30K health. And the sad thing is, this is pretty common in Group Finder.)

Which UI addon are you using in that shot?

@Jamini

The addon showing the dps & % of group dps is Combat Metrix.

It is also the best addon for analyzing a fight since buff and debuff uptimes and damage ic each skill can be seen in the fight report. (It can see debuff uptimes per npc.

I meant the buff/debuff timers. I have cmx and enjoy it immensely.

TFC only has numbers. A visible bar would be much more useful in the middle of a fight.

QuebraRegra

SnowFury wrote: »

Like I said before, as a healer in a pug group, I am usually the tank, the healer, and the dd

been there, done that, got the tshirt...

I've seen some fake tanks in my time cutting queues (no taunt), but the DPS guys who don't pull more than 2k DPS just boggle me?!?! Must just be in there and doing nothing but LA, while they are eating dinner, or having sex... it's so halfhearted I just wonder why they even bothered to queue.

AlMcFly

QuebraRegra wrote: »

SnowFury wrote: »

Like I said before, as a healer in a pug group, I am usually the tank, the healer, and the dd

been there, done that, got the tshirt...

I've seen some fake tanks in my time cutting queues (no taunt), but the DPS guys who don't pull more than 2k DPS just boggle me?!?! Must just be in there and doing nothing but LA, while they are eating dinner, or having sex... it's so halfhearted I just wonder why they even bothered to queue.

Lots of people in this game want free stuff and carried through dungeons while putting in the most minimum effort possible. They then immediately get nasty when asked questions about it, even when you're just trying to help.

Dymence

Not sure if bragging thread or complaints about pugs

Trashkan

You know how to bypass grouping tool and low dps. I do just q up with your 30k dps as a tank and equip inner fire. Works great for me and most runs I'm pulling 60% of the dps. I dont mind because i know what im getting in to. Most dungeons other than dlc can be soloed or 2 manned so the extra help is a bonus.

Magdalina

55%? Weak. My personal best is ~75% throughout vet Selene, going up to ~80% on last boss when one of the dps ragequit(so...basically he was doing about 5% group dps We finished it without him just fine ). Admittedly was on sorc healer using Liquid, Blockade and occasional destro ulti. But yeah that's pretty normal. They're just playing how they want, right?^^

Edit: was Selene's not Tempest>.<

QuebraRegra

coop500 wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

This thread is why I solo exclusively.

With no learning curve for group content coupled with the rampant elitism, there is no way in hell that I'm going to put myself through that hell.

No one wants to actually do content anyway - they just want to quick run and steamroll everything to grind the gear. I seriously do not understand the premise behind that.

Me neither, I hate speed runs, I rather run a dungeon with 3 noobs then 3 bratty elitist speed runners.

Speed runners ruins the whole dungeon experience for me, I may just start leaving groups if they refuse to slow down for two seconds and open those obvious, in plain sight chests.

absolutely! Can we geta queue for those that do NOT want to speedrun? I love when I'm the healer looting and the group runs off and gets slaughtered. Even worse when I'm a STAM DPS and the knuckelheads want to run a foot race through the dungeon.. burning up my STAM to fight before I even get there. Still waiting for someone to pop RAPIDS.

Play the game people... play it.

QuebraRegra

AlMcFly wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

SnowFury wrote: »

Like I said before, as a healer in a pug group, I am usually the tank, the healer, and the dd

been there, done that, got the tshirt...

I've seen some fake tanks in my time cutting queues (no taunt), but the DPS guys who don't pull more than 2k DPS just boggle me?!?! Must just be in there and doing nothing but LA, while they are eating dinner, or having sex... it's so halfhearted I just wonder why they even bothered to queue.

Lots of people in this game want free stuff and carried through dungeons while putting in the most minimum effort possible. They then immediately get nasty when asked questions about it, even when you're just trying to help.

yup, I'm at the point where I usually let someone else in the group call them out. One group member spent 10 minutes trying to be as diplomatic as possible in explaining the roles... I don't usually vote to kick, but some of the behaviour is just terribad.

Fusiondk

The even bigger problem than the disparity of good dps vs subpar dps is the unwillingness to acknowledge it as a player base or reflect on yourself with attempts to improve. Plain and simple the two biggest factors in low dps is the proper skill usage and rotation and the proper gear. Most dps should be performing at least at the 10-12k range. Above average at 15-20, and then your top tier at 25k+ single target. The problem is most group dps is lower than 15k in TOTAL. In the most basic gear, with a simple understanding of rotation the avg 160+ dps can pull 10k+ on even mechanically challenging boss.

ESO is oddly one of the only MMOs I've played that has such a difficult time with max difficulty dungeons

QuebraRegra

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

redshirt_49 wrote: »

Low level DPS without gear setups and strong passives (and often no CPs either) aren't going to pull large damage numbers.
Why even expect them to?

Low dps dds are not always low levels.
Last time I pugged in Grahtwood, for example, there was a 500+ cp dd sorc, who havent even tried to use any abilities, he was just spamming light attacks with occassional heavy/medium.
It was Darkshade 2, and I havent seen so many netches in ages. I quit the group, as it was insanely mind-numbing and that sorc claimed that he doesnt need abilities since he does 30+k dps anyway (even though our group dps was less than that, with all the aoe from my ele wall and other dds abilities).
Well, I guess thats what we get after those dolmen grinding trains.

you are correct, it's not always lowbees.. I'm shocked when I see slackers with 400-600cps just strap hanging, with the lowbies actually doing all the work.

code65536

Jamini wrote: »

Which UI addon are you using in that shot?

@Jamini

• Srendarr for buff tracking
• Azurah for various enhancements to the default UI
• Action Duration Reminders for tracking the remaining duration of skills cast on the skill bar
• JoGroup for the group frame
• Combat Metrics for DPS metering

tinythinker

Fusiondk wrote: »

ESO is oddly one of the only MMOs I've played that has such a difficult time with max difficulty dungeons

If you look at more traditional style MMORPGs like WoW or FFXIV there are more fixed abilities based on class and fewer item/gear customization options. While there is some flexibility in builds and rotations it's way less than ESO.

If you don't follow one of the few standard rotations for your class or get thrown off/flub it for some reason your DPS will be noticeably lower, or if you are wearing gear with really low item levels for a particular instance your DPS will be significantly lower.

The flexibility of ability choices and the degree of gear variety in ESO allows for large disparities to happen more often hence harder content to be botched. Plus ESO has no training missions or practice grounds for different group roles and ditched its progression from simpler to more complex dungeons with level-scaling.

ArchMikem

Some people just refuse to understand what a Rotation can do you for ability in the game, thinking light and heavy attacks are all you need to do. I used to be that way, but I at least learned and adapted to End Game playstyles. Others will simply just yell at you for asking them to try.

Drummerx04

coop500 wrote: »

Not exactly what's being talked about here, but I feel it's related.

Do randoms expect the healer to do a lot of DPS now? A few days back I went into a vet dungeon, Selene's Web to be exact, we had two DPS, a tank and I was a templar healer. One DPS was a vampire khajiit NB, I think Magicka, the other was a high elf Magicka Sorc, tank was a Warden.

[...]

Now comes the important part (lol) after we got a new DPS, the tank decided to kick ME! When I asked why through whispers, he just said sorry, we need more DPS.

We didn't even try with the new DPS we got, we were still standing on that log waiting for him to show up. I could have done more DPS without the elf if they gave me a chance with the new DPS, but nope. His excuse after I told him that was 'well you'are a healer, you'll get another dungeon easy'

I still wasted a hour and the cost of repairs for almost nothing. I didn't do the quest yet so in a way, I also lost a skillpoint which I could have used. So my question is, do people often kick healers for not enough DPS? When clearly there was a bad DPS on the team and was taken care of?

I guess truly random dungeon groups with inexperienced players expect the healer to supplement the dps because they expect the dps to be bad already.

Experienced groups expect the DD to actually do the VAST majority of the damage. The healer is then responsible for healing, buffing allies, and debuffing enemies. All classes except maybe magwarden can reach 20-30k dps depending on CP, and when you have 2 DD pulling that kind of damage, bosses like selene take maybe 4-5 minutes.

My goto team for vCoS HM can clear the entire dungeon in less than 15 minutes with the tank+healer averaging 5-8k dps combined.

To summarize, the experience of the pledge group is inversely related to the amount of damage they expect you to contribute to the run.

LadyNalcarya

Kanar wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Oh, and survival is a part of dps role. Everyone has access to harness magicka/vigor/etc. Of course, theres a healer and tank, but they cannot save dds from standing in stupid or ignoring mechanics.

Right, damage role also does healers role and tanks role (we heal ourselves, shield ourselves, and pull agro especially from adds while the tank is sitting on the boss blocking and getting healed). Therefore, it's also the role of healers and tanks to do damage (or contribute the equivalent in damage buffs).

Regarding the observation about DPS role being casual and easy, I guess you play a magika class.

First of all, do you understand that not everything can be healed? For example, the last boss of vSpindle (with a scroll). There is a huge risk of being oneshotted by boss's spit, and of course, its dds job to avoid that spit and huge red circle. Healer cant dodge it for you or cast shield for you (except barrier but its a dps loss and it wont last for the duration of fight anyway). Or last boss of Mazzatun, when healer is on statue duty. Or last boss in cradle of shadows, where team is being split and both groups have to find their way out of the maze. Not to mention various aoes, charges, etc. You arent supposed to stand in aoe, so its not healers fault if you die in it.
Healer's job is to heal unavoidable damage, sustain everyone's resources and keep up buffs and debuffs (ele wall, combat prayer etc). And thats a lot, actually - I'm not bragging, when I play with good healers, I can always feel the difference, both in resources and dps.
As for tanking, of course its tanks job to hold aggro, no doubt about that. Though some bosses are immune to taunts or have random mechanics, and you have to be prepared for that.

And yeah, average (good, but not spectacular) dps is very easy on any class. I used to play stamplar and stamsorc at some point, and stam dk in the old vdsa days and didnt have any issues with survival or damage.

Kanar

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

And yeah, average (good, but not spectacular) dps is very easy on any class. I used to play stamplar and stamsorc at some point, and stam dk in the old vdsa days and didnt have any issues with survival or damage.

Ok, create a casual stamina build with casual gear and post your best combat metrics log against molag kena.

LadyNalcarya

Kanar wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

And yeah, average (good, but not spectacular) dps is very easy on any class. I used to play stamplar and stamsorc at some point, and stam dk in the old vdsa days and didnt have any issues with survival or damage.

Ok, create a casual stamina build with casual gear and post your best combat metrics log against molag kena.

Since when Molag Kena is a dps test?
The fact that you suggest it says a lot.