Surely a healer shouldn't pull 55 % of the group dps?

humpalicous

Pulled 55 % of the group's dps the other day in Elden Hollow I while healing my team as a templar. Something must have been very, very wrong, no? I mean, a healer can deal damage sure, but my blockade of storms + blazing spears + ritual of retr. and heavy attacks shouldn't amount for more than half of the damage dealt to a boss?

The fight even reached 9 minutes and she was at only 60 % of her health. Was a bad experience I can tell you that.

zaria

Sounds like an horrible fight and by 9 minutes I assume this was veteran.
Has gotten numbers like this in some normal dungeons with low level weak DD.
In veteran its simply no no.

ValkynSketha

Thats what you get when there is no training system in eso, and where normal/questing teach players nothing, soon vet will be the same.

Ermiq

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Thats what you get when there is no training system in eso, and where normal/questing teach players nothing, soon vet will be the same.

Have you seen a thread where a guy get stuck in the story solo questline in Cold Harbour?

tommalmm

Shoudln't they? Damn, my bad then. But seriously, sometimes it's just easier to let all the DDs die and duo the boss with tank. When you don't have to heal, you can do more damage than three lousy DDs. You can usually easily pull ~15k in full healing gear and skill setup which really sounds hilarious when you're paired with DDs doing 5k each .

Fortunately, it doesn't happen THAT often. Though I'm getting 25-30% in like 90% of the fights (chich means I do as much damage as every other DD in group... and I'm healing at the same time). There is a threshold, when I don't bother buffing the team (combat prayer, warhorn) and instead just focus on DPS. You know, any percentage amp of nothing is still nothing (or barely anything).

Flameheart

My personal record in a PUG is a 15 min + endboss fight in EH1 vet as I was tank. My personal record as a tank in mentioned full support build was a boss fight with some adds where I contributed 56% group dps according Combat Metrix while doing 4k dps. Both DDs had over 160 CPs, one even over 300. The one with less died continously, the other was the typical heavy armor bow/bow "anchor specialist".

If you think you can't be suprized anymore in this game, just PUG. For some underperformers you would be glad to not just have a "kick-option", but a "delete-option" too.

code65536

76.9% of DPS as the tank:

(Yes, saptanks have more DPS than your typical tank, and my attributes and CP are set up for DPS. But still, I was in heavy armor with sword-and-board and 30K health. And the sad thing is, this is pretty common in Group Finder.)

LordGavus

It shouldn't happen but it does.
It's not uncommon for my healer to do 50% (my best is 70% in CoH1 twins) of group damage. At which point I'll offer advice to the dps if they want it.

tommalmm

code65536 wrote: »

76.9% of DPS as the tank:

(Yes, saptanks have more DPS than your typical tank, and my attributes and CP are set up for DPS. But still, I was in heavy armor with sword-and-board and 30K health. And the sad thing is, this is pretty common in Group Finder.)

I love that screenshot. Three tanks and a healer in a dungeon. Two other tanks combined did less damage than my stam dk nord main tank usually does (like ~5k).

Rex-Umbra

Some times in pugs i end up being tank healer and dps as the new players do there thing.

Nemesis7884

humpalicous wrote: »

Pulled 55 % of the group's dps the other day in Elden Hollow I while healing my team as a templar. Something must have been very, very wrong, no? I mean, a healer can deal damage sure, but my blockade of storms + blazing spears + ritual of retr. and heavy attacks shouldn't amount for more than half of the damage dealt to a boss?

The fight even reached 9 minutes and she was at only 60 % of her health. Was a bad experience I can tell you that.

Look at it from the bright side - you're obviously amazing

AhPook_Is_Here

A lot of different types of players queue as dps, while there is good dps out there, dps is the default queue choice of people who are new, not confident in their knowledge of the game (do least harm role), or not familiar with PVE content.

It happens when you pug; I think I would have just alt+f4'd that one myself. You can't be too indignant about it, it's like making out with a bunch of people in a dark room and then getting angry about catching a cold.

SpearDusk

Like I said before, as a healer in a pug group, I am usually the tank, the healer, and the dd

Jamini

code65536 wrote: »

76.9% of DPS as the tank:

(Yes, saptanks have more DPS than your typical tank, and my attributes and CP are set up for DPS. But still, I was in heavy armor with sword-and-board and 30K health. And the sad thing is, this is pretty common in Group Finder.)

Which UI addon are you using in that shot?

protofeckless

Got queue'd into a vetCrucible PUG as healer this week and was also doing over half the group damage. The entire run the rest of group was ~10k dps (despite my SPC buff), and one of the dd's accused me in group chat of not healing because I was dropping blockade of storms.

<Shrug> It took a while but was at least a moderately challenging carry. I have no idea how a CP450 DD does only ~5k dps.

Septimus_Magna

This is a direct result from solo quest content being way too easy. How can someone reach the end-game content and still only pull 5k dps? I think my Liquid Lightning already pulls more dps.

There's such a massive skill difference in this game. Some people are surprised when you finish off a vet dungeon boss at 30% health on a magicka sorc. Which is just as easy as killing a WB solo.

Betsararie

It's becoming a problem. Some bad things can happen in pugs.... very bad. And they don't seem to want to correct anything.

DeHei

Just a tipp for all: Start playing as DD, then with enough CP you can enter other playstyles. You can allways return to DD, if needed

coop500

Not exactly what's being talked about here, but I feel it's related.

Do randoms expect the healer to do a lot of DPS now? A few days back I went into a vet dungeon, Selene's Web to be exact, we had two DPS, a tank and I was a templar healer. One DPS was a vampire khajiit NB, I think Magicka, the other was a high elf Magicka Sorc, tank was a Warden.

I had the lowest CP at the moment, 180, but no one really died on us and tank wasn't throwing heals like a madman so I assume I was doing alright. Problem was this high elf sorc, she ALWAYS stood behind me and hard casted frags and kept her two pets up, that's pretty much all she did. Everytime I moved to stand behind her, so my heals and buffs would hit her, she'd move away again.

Since we were doing okay though I decided not to say anything, the khajiit and tank seemed happy as well (saying gg and such when we did the mini bosses like the 4 shadow cats)

Then we got the the final boss, this is when we started having troubles. The sorc couldn't hide behind me so much because there were adds everywhere shooting arrows. The khajiit died a few times but mainly that elf, she was so squishy but also wasn't doing much damage. Tank told us to start killing more adds, so I did as much DPS as I could but keeping that elf alive was sucking my resources while she was not pulling her weight.

I don't have any addons to tell me who was doing the most DPS but I suspect it was the kahjiit, she had some nice AOE and used her des staff ult, saw her kill plenty of adds but she can't do it entirely by herself. We wiped once before I decided to ignore the elf a bit more and keep the vamp khajiit buffed while throwing more shards at adds and tank. We almost killed her but a few times I rezed the elf, probably a mistake because she got me killed a few times, whch in turn caused the team to wipe.

Anyway, one more wipe after I and the tank messed up and got killed by that green bear attack. Tank decided to kick the elf then to get new DPS. I agreed and explained the issue earlier with her standing behind me and dying so much. I admit we should have took the effort to explain to her what was wrong before kicking, but I just wanted to get through this, I wasn't even supposed to be here I wanted to finish my pledges and that wasn't a pledge.

Now comes the important part (lol) after we got a new DPS, the tank decided to kick ME! When I asked why through whispers, he just said sorry, we need more DPS.

We didn't even try with the new DPS we got, we were still standing on that log waiting for him to show up. I could have done more DPS without the elf if they gave me a chance with the new DPS, but nope. His excuse after I told him that was 'well you'are a healer, you'll get another dungeon easy'

I still wasted a hour and the cost of repairs for almost nothing. I didn't do the quest yet so in a way, I also lost a skillpoint which I could have used. So my question is, do people often kick healers for not enough DPS? When clearly there was a bad DPS on the team and was taken care of?

Reverb

code65536 wrote: »

76.9% of DPS as the tank:

(Yes, saptanks have more DPS than your typical tank, and my attributes and CP are set up for DPS. But still, I was in heavy armor with sword-and-board and 30K health. And the sad thing is, this is pretty common in Group Finder.)

I admire you for having been willing to pug ICP with a cp14 and a cp33 DPS. Both NBs even.
I would have bailed on that group the second I loaded in.

(For the record, not ripping on NB dps, but the learning curve is long. Those who are good are very very good, the rest...aren't)

idk

In a random anything can happen. Fortunately as a healer you can easily hit 20k dps. Heck, most I have on the bar is 3 heals. The rest is dps.

tommalmm

coop500 wrote: »

Not exactly what's being talked about here, but I feel it's related.

Do randoms expect the healer to do a lot of DPS now? A few days back I went into a vet dungeon, Selene's Web to be exact, we had two DPS, a tank and I was a templar healer. One DPS was a vampire khajiit NB, I think Magicka, the other was a high elf Magicka Sorc, tank was a Warden.

I had the lowest CP at the moment, 180, but no one really died on us and tank wasn't throwing heals like a madman so I assume I was doing alright. Problem was this high elf sorc, she ALWAYS stood behind me and hard casted frags and kept her two pets up, that's pretty much all she did. Everytime I moved to stand behind her, so my heals and buffs would hit her, she'd move away again.

Since we were doing okay though I decided not to say anything, the khajiit and tank seemed happy as well (saying gg and such when we did the mini bosses like the 4 shadow cats)

Then we got the the final boss, this is when we started having troubles. The sorc couldn't hide behind me so much because there were adds everywhere shooting arrows. The khajiit died a few times but mainly that elf, she was so squishy but also wasn't doing much damage. Tank told us to start killing more adds, so I did as much DPS as I could but keeping that elf alive was sucking my resources while she was not pulling her weight.

I don't have any addons to tell me who was doing the most DPS but I suspect it was the kahjiit, she had some nice AOE and used her des staff ult, saw her kill plenty of adds but she can't do it entirely by herself. We wiped once before I decided to ignore the elf a bit more and keep the vamp khajiit buffed while throwing more shards at adds and tank. We almost killed her but a few times I rezed the elf, probably a mistake because she got me killed a few times, whch in turn caused the team to wipe.

Anyway, one more wipe after I and the tank messed up and got killed by that green bear attack. Tank decided to kick the elf then to get new DPS. I agreed and explained the issue earlier with her standing behind me and dying so much. I admit we should have took the effort to explain to her what was wrong before kicking, but I just wanted to get through this, I wasn't even supposed to be here I wanted to finish my pledges and that wasn't a pledge.

Now comes the important part (lol) after we got a new DPS, the tank decided to kick ME! When I asked why through whispers, he just said sorry, we need more DPS.

We didn't even try with the new DPS we got, we were still standing on that log waiting for him to show up. I could have done more DPS without the elf if they gave me a chance with the new DPS, but nope. His excuse after I told him that was 'well you'are a healer, you'll get another dungeon easy'

I still wasted a hour and the cost of repairs for almost nothing. I didn't do the quest yet so in a way, I also lost a skillpoint which I could have used. So my question is, do people often kick healers for not enough DPS? When clearly there was a bad DPS on the team and was taken care of?

Don't worry. Healers can do some great DPS only in two cases:
1. They've got a good team, that besides buffing and HOTs doesn't need any healing.
2. They ignore their team and concentrate on DPS.

If anyone in your team says you wipe, because the healer did not have enough DPS, that's ***. If healer's DPS is crucial, not just a welcome addition, the team simply sucks big time. Don't let it get you down.

LadyNalcarya

Well... Fake tanks and healers are common in group finder from what I've seen, and of course there are fake dds as well.
I even saw some of those in vet trial runs... Just spamming light attacks and whatnot, lol.
Of course, you shouldnt pull 55% as a healer. When I heal or tank and see something like this, I just leave... No reason to encourage those fake dds and make them believe they can pull their weight in dungeons.

Kanar

Expectations of damage role are too high in PUGs. In one thread I saw someone claim DD should be doing 45%, which means tank+healer only do 10%. It's everyone's roll to do damage, healers especially since they will already be specced magika and can do easy ranged attacks. DD is already responsible for rezzing, if I have to spend half the battle rezzing the other DPS (cause they're a glass cannon with no consideration for survivability) and also deal with boss mechanics (stamina DPS must be in melee) then of course healer could have 50% DPS especially if the tank is built for support or a lazy block tank.

As damage role, it's stupid to go into a pug vet dungeon expecting tank and healer to keep you alive. A dead DD does no damage.

idk

Jamini wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

76.9% of DPS as the tank:

(Yes, saptanks have more DPS than your typical tank, and my attributes and CP are set up for DPS. But still, I was in heavy armor with sword-and-board and 30K health. And the sad thing is, this is pretty common in Group Finder.)

Which UI addon are you using in that shot?

@Jamini

The addon showing the dps & % of group dps is Combat Metrix.

It is also the best addon for analyzing a fight since buff and debuff uptimes and damage ic each skill can be seen in the fight report. (It can see debuff uptimes per npc.

Kanar

coop500 wrote: »

Then we got the the final boss, this is when we started having troubles. The sorc couldn't hide behind me so much because there were adds everywhere shooting arrows. The khajiit died a few times but mainly that elf, she was so squishy but also wasn't doing much damage. Tank told us to start killing more adds, so I did as much DPS as I could but keeping that elf alive was sucking my resources while she was not pulling her weight.

Sounds more like a tank issue. With unreliable DPS you absolutely have to pull her to the corner so the adds don't surround you. Yet another case of lazy tank blaming the damage dealer.

Too many times support role just defaults to blaming DD because they are too lazy to learn the mechanics. People love high damage because it let's you ignore boss mechanics, but if you're not lazy then you can win these boss fights even with low DPS.

Sunah

My favorite thing as a healer is when you are in a group and you know you just completely carried the heck out of the boss fight. I mean keeping buffs up, healing them through stupid and putting out as much dps as you can because they are doing absolutely nothing... Then when the boss dies you hear them on the mic say "damn we just destroyed that boss!"

I know its bad but I believe we need damage meters. But we can only see our OWN damage done in a dungeon or really any content. This way it keeps the flaming to a minimum but lets you see what numbers you are pulling in each fight. ****by the way im speaking in terms of xbox since im pretty sure PC has damage meters already***

LadyNalcarya

Kanar wrote: »

Expectations of damage role are too high in PUGs. In one thread I saw someone claim DD should be doing 45%, which means tank+healer only do 10%. It's everyone's roll to do damage, healers especially since they will already be specced magika and can do easy ranged attacks. DD is already responsible for rezzing, if I have to spend half the battle rezzing the other DPS (cause they're a glass cannon with no consideration for survivability) and also deal with boss mechanics (stamina DPS must be in melee) then of course healer could have 50% DPS especially if the tank is built for support or a lazy block tank.

As damage role, it's stupid to go into a pug vet dungeon expecting tank and healer to keep you alive. A dead DD does no damage.

Dont know. From my experience, expectations about dps in pugs are pretty much non-existant (or just very low). Cant say the same about healers.
Every time I pug and theres a "dd" with light attacks, other randoms dont say anything. When I pug as a dd, I often end up doing 70-90% of group dps (mind you, Im not the strongest dd), and then again, no one says anything. Also, I find this relaxed average dd playstyle much easier and less stressful than healing... Just drop some dots and spam heavy attack or your spammable ability, and youre already at decent dps. High-end dps is hard, yeah, and requires extreme precision, but average decent-ish dps is super easy (compared to trial healing and tanking, anyway).
Oh, and survival is a part of dps role. Everyone has access to harness magicka/vigor/etc. Of course, theres a healer and tank, but they cannot save dds from standing in stupid or ignoring mechanics.

NeillMcAttack

Just another #Puglife thread.

Bouldercleave

This thread is why I solo exclusively.

With no learning curve for group content coupled with the rampant elitism, there is no way in hell that I'm going to put myself through that hell.

No one wants to actually do content anyway - they just want to quick run and steamroll everything to grind the gear. I seriously do not understand the premise behind that.

Saturn

humpalicous wrote: »

Pulled 55 % of the group's dps the other day in Elden Hollow I while healing my team as a templar. Something must have been very, very wrong, no? I mean, a healer can deal damage sure, but my blockade of storms + blazing spears + ritual of retr. and heavy attacks shouldn't amount for more than half of the damage dealt to a boss?

The fight even reached 9 minutes and she was at only 60 % of her health. Was a bad experience I can tell you that.

The whole Morrowind update mantra of "raising the floor and lowering the ceiling" just wasn't true. The middle became the floor and the floor became the basement, meanwhile the ceiling is still intact. I think the biggest problem is that people who weren't super min/max previously are now completely ruined by the sustain changes, and without a proper way to re-educate the players on how to adapt this will just be one of many such occurences. I have definitely noticed that pug groups had generally gotten way worse since this update, and once more proves that ZOS has no clue what they are doing.