PC Now Has a Global Auction House

Belegnole

Betheny wrote: »

Roovin wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Roovin wrote: »

Oh jeez, an add-on that completely circumvents the way the developers wanted the auction houses to operate.

And people are praising it.

lulz

Might be something to do with the fact this current trade system is a total fail...people really really want a real auction house.

It works just fine in other MMO's/games.

You mean real auction houses work fine in other games, the ESO trade system is a complete fiasco.

So true, the only thing in this game that I hate is the current guild controlled resale system.

Betheny

Erraln wrote: »

cherry pick a sentence and generate a pithy reply.

Quote picked.

I don't know anything about this addon other than it's a potential solution to a terrible trading system.

Your accusations reflect badly on yourself, not me...it's clear you haven't read anything I said, it's you who is cherry picking what's been written in this thread...you missed all the parts where I stated my own concerns.

Another to add to my ignore list, I use this list to avoid talking with people who want to ruin perfectly good discussions.

Betheny

It's quite clear the mega traders will come in here and try to wreck the potential for any alternative to the current system they hold dominion over, it's not nice to watch. Throwing accusations around slandering people and trying to sink a person just for starting a discussion thread.

Eloheynu

Hi all, Allow me to introduce myself as I'm the developer of the Nirn Auction House Addon.
Unfortunately, I had trouble accessing the forum and haven't been able to respond until now.

I've been an ESO player since it was in beta where I helped test the game pre release. During the beta, I asked the developers about the need for an auction house even if the auction functionality was limited because it's what many users expect when they play a game like this. They didn't...

So I decided to create the Nirn AH addon and see how the community reacts and adapts. I'm not trying to take over the guild store system or rain on anybody's parade. I'm only trying to provide an alternate outlet to everything that's available now. My goal is simply to increase the number of buyers that see your items and give tools to help manage those transactions.

As to the malicious software allegations, I've made source code available to review here:
https://github.com/evan-sctg/NirnAuctionHouse-ServerLink

I've also supplied scan results from a popular tool here:
https://www.metadefender.com/#!/results/file/ZTE3MDcyMkgxWmJhc01lVVdTSkdicGp6ZThi/regular/analysis

Check out the addon page for details and upcoming features:
http://www.esoui.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=1768

Please send me feedback!!! I want to know what you like or dislike.
Let's build a great auction system for the ESO community.

starkerealm

Betheny wrote: »

I don't know anything

Well, okay then.

starkerealm

Betheny wrote: »

It's quite clear the mega traders will come in here and try to wreck the potential for any alternative to the current system they hold dominion over, it's not nice to watch. Throwing accusations around slandering people and trying to sink a person just for starting a discussion thread.

It's not that. There have been other discussions. It's that this one is tied to a piece of malware. You want to start a healthy discussion about alternative options for the current system? Start a new thread. Don't bolt it onto this mess, and expect no one to go, "hey, waitaminute, this sounds like a horrifically bad idea."

Betheny

Awesome @Eloheynu - now you're here this rabble can start addressing their feedback and concerns with you directly now.

Lots of people here are accusing you of doing dodgy things in your code, if you read the last page you'll see.

Maybe you could help people understand what's in your code and why it's there?

Darlgon

Eloheynu wrote: »

Hi all, Allow me to introduce myself as I'm the developer of the Nirn Auction House Addon.
Unfortunately, I had trouble accessing the forum and haven't been able to respond until now.

I've been an ESO player since it was in beta where I helped test the game pre release. During the beta, I asked the developers about the need for an auction house even if the auction functionality was limited because it's what many users expect when they play a game like this. They didn't...

.

Welcome to the forums. I see you joined at 5:18 today. I am.. afraid your proponent in here has succeed in making a lot of posters, myself included, suspicious of you and your program, on top of the other warnings raised.

Before you go too far, you said you were in Beta. What happened to your Beta account? You should have a joined date similar to mine, November 2013. What server/platform do you play on? If you were in Beta, like myself, you saw Matt Firor say that to put a global auction hall into this game, he would have to down the servers and start coding the game from scratch. So, you are going to try to bypass a core system of the game?

Eloheynu

Betheny wrote: »

Awesome @Eloheynu - now you're here this rabble can start addressing their feedback and concerns with you directly now.

Lots of people here are accusing you of doing dodgy things in your code, if you read the last page you'll see.

Maybe you could help people understand what's in your code and why it's there?

@Betheny, I'd be more than happy to address any concerns anybody might have. Mainly I've seen a lot of assumptions and guesses to what this might do or how it might harm you.

There simply is nothing in this code that will harm you. If somebody here would like to point out something specific in the code. I'll be more than happy to make changes. Originally I posted the updater.exe with my addon. It created a lot of concern and even false positives with antivirus software for whatever reason. I could have worked to code sign the package and everything, but after discussing it with people and the admins of ESOUI, I removed it from my addon and decided to rely on minon and manual downloads to keep the plugin updated. Honestly, I just figured out the door there might be a lot of priority changes and to have a way to update the addon quickly was ideal. That quickly blew up.... So it's removed.

As far as manipulating auctions or planting bugs in future updates. I mean those are potential concerns. But like any author out there that is possible. So the best I can do is be as transparent as possible to the community.

As far as ESO and my plugin, I mean I've done everything by the book regarding their API, the way popular add-ons work with ESO and I've even gone as far as doing data caching and reduce calls to limit how much times your client needs to talk to ESO. The Devs will like me for this.

Let me know if I missed anything.

-Elo

Betheny

@Eloheynu - I wouldn't start a conversation with that guy^

Maybe you could start a thread about your addon, this thread got trolled by a few people trying hard to get the thread shut down. That guy above being one of them.

Eloheynu

Darlgon wrote: »

Eloheynu wrote: »

Hi all, Allow me to introduce myself as I'm the developer of the Nirn Auction House Addon.
Unfortunately, I had trouble accessing the forum and haven't been able to respond until now.

I've been an ESO player since it was in beta where I helped test the game pre release. During the beta, I asked the developers about the need for an auction house even if the auction functionality was limited because it's what many users expect when they play a game like this. They didn't...

.

Welcome to the forums. I see you joined at 5:18 today. I am.. afraid your proponent in here has succeed in making a lot of posters, myself included, suspicious of you and your program, on top of the other warnings raised.

Before you go too far, you said you were in Beta. What happened to your Beta account? You should have a joined date similar to mine, November 2013. What server/platform do you play on? If you were in Beta, like myself, you saw Matt Firor say that to put a global auction hall into this game, he would have to down the servers and start coding the game from scratch. So, you are going to try to bypass a core system of the game?

Before you go too far...
You are more than welcome to come see my [Imgakin Monkey] Na server lmk

-Elo

Erasure

@Eloheynu , is this just ttc with your name stamped on it like cyxui says? are you gettin your info on whats normal for addons from that? almost none of them have exe files or server uploads.

can you tell us the item path when someone uses this program? Person A lists they're selling and then what? Person B lists they're buying, how does B get told that A has their stuff? Does A's item get sent direct to B or is there an intermediary?

Zeni bans people that buy from botters, are you gonna make any effort to keep botters off your system? If not buying mats will be really risky.

EDIT: Oh, and are you gonna answer darl's real question instead just the join date part?

Philgo68

I've looked at the provided source to the EXE and the LUA addon code itself. While I see no malicious code, there are still a few serious concerns.
1. The EXE provided does not necessarily come from the provided source code. It would be interesting to setup a system where a panel of ESO community members, or the ESOUI team, could compile addons like this (as there are a few of them out there) to make sure we have EXEs that match the code provided. (Just an aside, was a similar stink raise when TTC came out? TTC has an EXE and an AutoUpdater too.)

2. The EXE rewrites pieces of the LUA CODE portion of the addon. So when you /ReloadUI you are getting whatever new LUA code the EXE has written. This is used to get data back into the game from the EXE, but could be used to install LUA code that your ESO game starts running without any review at all. It's an interesting way to handle the data issue, and also mimics TTC's solution to that problem.

Which leads me to my last comment from an addon developer point of view...
The EXE and LUA code for this addon are HEAVILY borrowed from other's work. I don't mean there are a few sections of code here and there that look familiar, I mean LARGE sections of the code are simply cut and pasted. And to my eye, some of the code left in place from those addons indicates the author does not fully understand the code they are using. Steven Chen (of TTC fame) wrote the DLL that is being used, and it seems like other large pieces of the exe source came from TTC. The core LUA code came from Price Tracker and Itemization Browser (The Auction List window has "Itemization Browser" as it's title on my system, since I also have IB installed.) I now see the tiniest of nods has been made to Steven on the Addon page on ESOUI, but some proper credit is due to a number of other folks also. For me, the way this addon has been hacked together leaves serious concern about the stability and security of the system as a whole.

Eloheynu

@Erasure

This is not a TTC clone. Obviously, it has way more functionality. I did, however, use the TTC serializer that Steven Chen wrote. I gave him credit in my addon info page for that part. I debated writing my own, but I decided to package the beta up and send a PM to him to see if he approves. Haven't heard back yet, so if not I'll most likely replace that with my own.

The system is simply an item listing system with the ability to virtually bid and buyout items. The addon keeps track of auction data by storing it via a remote database. Your local add-on client syncs the data when you press sync or load different zones. The database keeps very minimal data each auction to keep storage/server usage minimal. Everything is available in the source to review regarding whats being passed.

Once an auction is over or a buyout is complete, the seller will get notified it has a buyer, and the addon will help send the COD to the purchaser. The whole concept is to globally list items, bid/buyout, provide convenience to keep track of it all.

As far as botters and trolls, I fully intend to keep these activities at bay. Through feedback or incident, there are many ways to handle it.

I don't think we're bypassing the core system of the game. This addon provides necessary tools to bid and buy items; it's up to the seller and buyer to complete the transaction.


@Philgo68
I would just say that this is a beta addon. I fully intend to give credit where it's due. Especially to authors that have a part in my code. As of right now, TTC's serializer is the only core piece I used from anything else I reviewed. Everything else would be an implementation of core functionality. Like scroll lists. I understand my code needs to be cleaned up and I fully intend to tackle it in the upcoming patches. Thanks for your feedback.

-Elo

kargen27

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Wether or Not ZoS wants to implement a AH, It is so stupidly Obvious that there are hundreds and thousands of players who absolutely want one instead of running around to the demented will of the the handful of crooks who run the current guild trade systems


Inb4 some moron says this is just one thread. WRONG just do a quick Post search for Auction House and see how many hundreds of different posts and Polls there are. The Majority are largely in favor of AH in some form. Regardless, It's obvious the current system is outdated, Myopic and Completely shuts out players from making proper profits to the benifit of A handful of players.

Funny when you read those threads the majority of people that post are against the auction house idea. You have a few (very few compared to the number that play the game) that start multiple threads on the idea. You do realize even if every person that posts in these forums agreed on anything that still would be a very small number of people compared to the number that has played the game?

Rohamad_Ali

I am not against this add on IF it's safe and works without people losing money or getting some kind of malicious code or spying account sensitive material . If it's legit great . The concern I've been told is the author releasing the source of the EXE code . Somehow that's a big concern of my friends sharing their thoughts .

Betheny

kargen27 wrote: »

Funny when you read those threads the majority of people that post are against the auction house idea.

Found this thread, just a random thread on auction houses I just found. Looks to me like most people want an auction house or at least a major change to this current system.

I think you might be well off the mark there thinking more people like this system than want it changed. It's quite the reverse.

Avidspark

I wouldn't mind seeing the devs response to this, seeing as they've made it clear they do not want such a thing as a global auction house in the game...what say you @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_RichLambert ?

Erasure

@Eloheynu , that answers some of my questions. I should have asked this one first:

Section 9 of the Terms of Service states:

Zenimax wrote:

You further agree not to access, create, or provide any other means through which the Services, including, but not limited to, any Game(s), may be used or accessed by others, such as through server emulators.

You may not participate, take part in, initiate, or engage in actions that impose an unreasonable or disproportionate load on the infrastructure hosting the Game(s) and/or Services.

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of "bots", "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithms or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

You acknowledge that You do not have the right to create, publish, distribute, create derivative works from or use any software programs, utilities, applications, emulators or tools derived from or created for certain Content (such as Game(s)), except as authorized in writing by an authorized ZeniMax representative. You may use the Software to the extent expressly permitted by these Terms of Service and the EULA.

Does recording and manipulating player items and player mails through a third-party program (your addon's external files) not constitute transmitting, manipulating, and distributing ESO data and aspects of the Service to your computer, your server, etc? If not, how is it excluded? If it's known to be excluded, what Zeni representative gave word that it was kosher, and may we have confirmation of that?

DRXHarbinger

Right so guys here is the issue with this.

Unknown author.

.exe can be updated anytime to include any kind of Malware or Key logging.

If this happens you are well and truly ***.

Is it worth the risk?

My colleagues have said no chance in hell would they deploy this on a live system.

All for the sake of trading for vital currency?!

Just ask yourself if this is worth the risk.

You will have 0 come back.

helediron

@Eloheynu , i have some questions:
- how do you prove bids go public unchanged and there is no routing to preferred players? Just saying that "no intention to do it" isn't enough. There needs to be a chain of proof and a way to publicly review trades afterwards.
- how exactly do you keep gold sellers out? I reviewed the client code and i can now write my own clients that can overwhelm the server with bids. Gold sellers will do exactly the same and they can do it outside ZOS control.
- have you thought out scaling out the system? The system might grow out to millions of transactions. How do you pay it? What do you do when costs climb up and gold sellers start making sweet offers?
- have you discussed with ZOS?

Ohtimbar

I like the idea, and I hope it works out. The odious guild trader system is easily my least favorite part of the game, and that's being charitable. ZOS is apparently unwilling to step up, so good on you for taking the initiative. I doubt this is some Machiavellian scheme to steal my virtual loot, but if so; nothing wagered, nothing gained. It's just a game.

Eloheynu

@Erasure
I think the most simple answer to these questions is to look at TTC. It's been available for a few years, and primarily it uses a remote server to store its data to pull back into the addon. Essentially this add-on stays within the same realm as TTC. I feel the game developers non-action is a testament to their stances on these types of plugins.

@helediron
I believe through updates and ongoing development that will cover solutions for these concerns.

Keeping gold sellers out and rogue clients are something I'll be watching very carefully. There are many ways to combat these activities.

Regarding scaling and growth, Essentially it can have unlimited server resources. I've already done some initial load testing and scale testing It also helps when you do this for a living on large scale.


-Elo

Sixsixsix161

@Eloheynu

Thank you for making this available. A lot of use have been waiting a long time to replace the trade-guild system with something more flexible.

Having said that, I will stand on the sideline while this discussion continues, and will jump at the chance to join this add-on, as soon as we get word from ZOS whether or not this conforms to the Terms of Service. I'm not willing to jump in and then find myself banned. If they refuse to acknowledge the existence of this program one way or another, I'll continue to do business as I am now - which doesn't include a tradeguild.

Until then, keep up the good work, and lets hope for the best.

Good luck.

6

cyx54tc

Eloheynu wrote: »

I did, however, use the TTC serializer that Steven Chen wrote. I gave him credit in my addon info page for that part.

I still can't find a single word on your addon page about credits. And also the serializer is NOT the only thing you copied from TTC.

here is a list of your files in Git

Constants.cs (direct copied from TTC, you can even find the commented out PriceTable related lines, file name is the same too)
ESOBidEntry.cs (Original since TTC doesn't have it)
ESOFilledOrderEntry.cs (Original since TTC doesn't have it)
ESOItem.cs (copied from TTC with some modification, file name is the same too)
ESOTradeAsset.cs (copied from TTC with some modification, file name is the same too)
ESOTradeEntry.cs (copied from TTC with some modification, file name is the same too)
ESOTradeInfo.cs (Original since TTC doesn't have it)
HTTPService.cs (direct copied from TTC with no modification)
PostTradeResult.cs (direct copied from TTC with no modification)
RequestResult.cs (direct copied from TTC with no modification)
ServerRegion.cs (direct copied from TTC with no modification)
Util.cs (copied from TTC with just a bit modification, file name is the same too)
WebClientEx.cs (direct copied from TTC with no modification)
Form1.cs (copied from TTC, anything has to do with parsing and uploading are direct copy. You can even find the method for updating TTC's price table in it)

Eloheynu wrote: »

I debated writing my own, but I decided to package the beta up and send a PM to him to see if he approves. Haven't heard back yet

You sent the PM after Phil posted negative feedback on the forum, NOT before or shortly after you package the beta up. To be honest you have plenty of time to ask for permissions during your development but you never done so. beta is never an excuse for cribbing other people's work (and even worse, 0 credit for it).

Nirn auction house is not the first addon that uses TTC's material. But the main difference is, all other authors asked for my permission and I gave permission to all of them. I even told them how to use it and what to watch out for.

Claiming something like this is original doesn't look right to me. And the attitude is what makes me angry.

cyx54tc

silvereyes wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

It would be interesting to know if ZoS supports the idea of an addon working as an auction house... maybe Miat should be able to create a Baandari auction house

Well, this is what the TOS say (emphasis mine):

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of "bots", "speed hacks", "deep-link", "page-scrape", "robot", "spider", algorithms or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, "mirroring") the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

If ZOS wanted to crack down on third-party auction house services like TTC and this new Nirn auction house, all they would need to do is reference the above TOS clause. But the fact that the clause exists isn't really enough to tell us how ZOS feels about these services. It's such a broad clause that it's effectively a blank check for ZOS to do whatever they want to censor people.

My guess is that while ZOS might not actively endorse such services, it would be too much hassle to send out cease and desist letters to shut them down.

and just to respond to this real quick, the first line of that ToS block says "You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax "

I contacted ZOS customer support to seek approval for TTC and I was given a go. So everything after does not apply since the first condition is false.

Eloheynu

@cyx54tc
Sorry, you feel that way, and it troubles me that we couldn't handle this matter through a private exchange like I've tried to do. Nonetheless, You make bold accusations about my code and considering yourself an original developer over all the global ids, naming, and general functions are ridiculous. In my mind, the only part that matters regarding developer credit was the serializer. Especially considering a lot of plugins using the same exact formats now. Nevertheless, I'm not going to use this forum to debate each line of my code in each file. There are significant differences, and since it's a beta, the next version will be a complete rewrite of anything you could potentially consider "yours." And any credit that I currently have listed for you.

PS. It's insane you value this as-if it's like proprietary information. Isn't this supposed to be a community of ESO developers? Surprised at how hostile and unorthodox some are. Here I am, open source and have everything public. Then here you are hiding behind code you keep private claiming you wrote everything originally. Get a life.... Trying to paint me as a villain simply won't work with me. I've been around the block a few times...

-Elo

helediron

Eloheynu wrote: »

@Erasure
I think the most simple answer to these questions is to look at TTC. It's been available for a few years, and primarily it uses a remote server to store its data to pull back into the addon. Essentially this add-on stays within the same realm as TTC. I feel the game developers non-action is a testament to their stances on these types of plugins.

@helediron
I believe through updates and ongoing development that will cover solutions for these concerns.

Keeping gold sellers out and rogue clients are something I'll be watching very carefully. There are many ways to combat these activities.

Regarding scaling and growth, Essentially it can have unlimited server resources. I've already done some initial load testing and scale testing It also helps when you do this for a living on large scale.


-Elo

So, none of the concerns mitigated. This is probably a gold seller scam building up. There is nothing but developer's word, a nice public face with fresh account from yesterday. From security and scam point of view, all alarms are ringing. The key feature is that here outside system is directing sales. TTC and MM are just offering information, but do not deal with actual trade.

The devoler's response was naive, being either actually naive

"I'll be watching very carefully"

or already sponsored by goldsellers:

"Essentially it can have unlimited server resources."

Like they say, follow the money.

To other players: even if you hate guild system, it is something under ZOS control. This new system would be totally outside the game, to which players nor ZOS nor anybody than developer has control. "Getting out from guild imperiums" is replaced with uncontrolled monopoly. Be careful what you wish for.

Eloheynu

@helediron

This addon doesn't control trades or anything of the sort. It simply provides tools for use with all the in-game features. Everything regarding gold transfer, Sending COD, Accepting a COD is all managed by the game and what limits the game and the API set. Regarding gold seller scams, I see no scenario or hypothetical situation I'd be worried about here. Furthermore, I do see ways to lock down on trolls which I intend to incorporate in upcoming releases.

Regarding a new ESO forum author, That's why I decided to make everything open source. I understand for some, I may need to build trust, but like any other author that comes with making people happy.

-Elo

cyx54tc

Eloheynu wrote: »

@cyx54tc
Sorry, you feel that way, and it troubles me that we couldn't handle this matter through a private exchange like I've tried to do. Nonetheless, You make bold accusations about my code and considering yourself an original developer over all the global ids, naming, and general functions are ridiculous. In my mind, the only part that matters regarding developer credit was the serializer. Especially considering a lot of plugins using the same exact formats now. Nevertheless, I'm not going to use this forum to debate each line of my code in each file. There are significant differences, and since it's a beta, the next version will be a complete rewrite of anything you could potentially consider "yours." And any credit that I currently have listed for you.

PS. It's insane you value this as-if it's like proprietary information. Isn't this supposed to be a community of ESO developers? Surprised at how hostile and unorthodox some are. Here I am, open source and have everything public. Then here you are hiding behind code you keep private claiming you wrote everything originally. Get a life.... Trying to paint me as a villain simply won't work with me. I've been around the block a few times...

-Elo

Well if you care to read over the TOS you accepted when you download/open TTC you will find this line

"You may not copy, sell, distribute, lease, modify, create derivative works of, decompile, reverse engineer or any attempt to extract the source code of that software. "

It was pretty obvious that you decompiled and modified TTC as a starting point. There is no where on the internet you can find TTC's class definition since its not open sourced. You probably don't even know what "Category2IDOverWrite" is for in your ESOItem class's definition since that is a TTC specific thing. ESO doesn't have such thing as Category2 ID. (there are more examples like this, not going to go thru them one by one)

Not going to argue whether the general functions are the only way or standard way to do it, but those functions are created by me and it was my idea to solve those particular problems. I do think they belong to "original" category.

The thing bothers me to most is not about someone used my code, its about no respect.

You did not design that software's structure. I did. You did not write those helper functions. I did. You did not create those base classes. I did. So I don't think its unfair that I call it my work and deserves credit for them.

What you have done is that you decompiled a close source project and made some modification, then you open sourced it and claiming its all your work and bashed the original author for not making it publically available.

Do I think its fair? No. Am I always right? No. But am I going to take any further steps to punish you for it or stop you from doing so? Not likely. So I will stop here.