Soul Strike should get the Death stroke treatment

SodanTok

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Soul Assault is fine as is

Look at Dawnbreaker, it has no counter play. It's an
AOE cone
Undodgable
AOE CC
High damage
High damage DOT
Animation Cancel nuke

You can't even see the animation at all most of the time because it's clipped and it dies more damage then a single target channel that will get you killed if you time it wrong and you want to nerf Soul Assault?

Wow...one of the few skills strong against dodge doling stam builds...everyone in the game is tanky now and will be even more tanky next patch..the last thing we need is another damage nerf to an ultimate. Dawnbreaker is the stam version of SS and is better in every way. Yet it's ok? If SS is OP Dawnbreaker is flat out broken!

Arguably, dawnbreaker is stam version of comet.
I don't get where you find the similarities between dawnbreaker and SS. The only similar thing is low cost. That does not mean they should be equally good. I don't have to remind you lack of good stamina ults right? You just named one of two.

But that's not the point. SS wrecks medium armor builds. Dawnbreaker is strong overall, but is not that strong vs any builds in the game. You can block dawnbreaker for 2-4k stamina and take 3k damage. That will happen in matter of 1 second and except the DoT you are basically free to do whatever.
You block soul assault for ~20k stamina and stand in one place for 4sec taking 20k damage.

sly007

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Dawnbreaker has always gone through block though.

Its only this patch where its been bugged.[/quote]

It never went through block. It went through roll dodge because it is an aoe ultimate. If it went though block, that would be insane. But that would hurt stamina more than Magicka due to shields.

Neoauspex

Who cares if Soul Assault is nerfed, the 13 people that use it will just switch to the destro ult which is the same damage but aoe and instant instead of a channel. Every time I see a thread like this I just see people asking for a bump in bomber builds in Cyro. Yippee, just what medium armor users want.

Smolt

It needs a cost increase and it should be interruptible. And keep the damage, but less ticks so it's more blockable. It would still be one of the best single target ults in game. As it is now there's almost no counterplay no doubt that it's over performing... On my sorc I can mages wrath, frag and soul assault people are dead before they can break cc it's ridiculous.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Nah, it's fine. Stop the nerf threads.

Killset

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Soul Assault is fine as is

Look at Dawnbreaker, it has no counter play. It's an
AOE cone
Undodgable
AOE CC
High damage
High damage DOT
Animation Cancel nuke

You can't even see the animation at all most of the time because it's clipped and it dies more damage then a single target channel that will get you killed if you time it wrong and you want to nerf Soul Assault?

Wow...one of the few skills strong against dodge doling stam builds...everyone in the game is tanky now and will be even more tanky next patch..the last thing we need is another damage nerf to an ultimate. Dawnbreaker is the stam version of SS and is better in every way. Yet it's ok? If SS is OP Dawnbreaker is flat out broken!

Soul Assault isn't even on the same planet as Dawn Breaker. And I am pretty sure, deep down inside, you know it too.

Chilly-McFreeze

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Soul Assault is fine as is

Look at Dawnbreaker, it has no counter play. It's an
AOE cone
Undodgable
AOE CC
High damage
High damage DOT
Animation Cancel nuke

You can't even see the animation at all most of the time because it's clipped and it dies more damage then a single target channel that will get you killed if you time it wrong and you want to nerf Soul Assault?

Wow...one of the few skills strong against dodge doling stam builds...everyone in the game is tanky now and will be even more tanky next patch..the last thing we need is another damage nerf to an ultimate. Dawnbreaker is the stam version of SS and is better in every way. Yet it's ok? If SS is OP Dawnbreaker is flat out broken!

Every AoE is undodgeable. SA is a channel and undodgeable as well
SA has a immense snare and grants the caster CC immunity
You can walk out of the DoT
DB has 10m range. If I stand in a keep, my SA tooltip says 41m.
DB doesn't cost 17k to block

Animation canceling... I'm no friend of it either but it's endorsed by some lazy devs, so I don't know how to value that point.

One of the few skills against dodge builds... Dodging is expensive and only get's you so far. So many things that go through dodge now. Every channel, including heavy attacks from lighnting and resto staves, curse, dive dive dive dive and dive, every AoE, every single landed DoT.

I agree, everyone can build to be tanky in HA and LA. Stack max magicka and you get giant stackable shields. Okay, their value diminishes with the increasing number of opponents. Troll king, pirate skeleton, huge heals let you stay alive. Most of the time max magicka = big shields = big heals.
Heavy armor and impen negates a lot of damage, block even more. Perma blocking is a problem bc the way how block costs are calculated is severly screwed but could easily be changed. Just substract the flat values before the percentages and permablocking would take a big hit.

But did you ever asked yourself WHY people tend to go tanky? Because the damage output is insane. With mag toons high max magicka means high defense (shields, heals) and high offense, so why shouldn't they go that way? With so many attacks going through dodge now it's just reasonable to go heavy as a stam toon. Why should I choose a armor class that soley relies on dodge when dodge is easily countered?

With the next patch everyone will be even tankier, right. Resistance goes up, penetration goes down. Heals are already gutted by defile but health regen will take a hit as well. So what's left to defend with? Mitigation, block, shields. Dodge is to easy countered, not even a 5pc set is needed to bypass MA's main defense (looking at you, shield breaker).

As soon as oblivion dmg glyph + infused (+ torug's) hit live and people will realize it's potential the shield stackers and perma blockers will feel the pain that dodge rollers already endure.

Lughlongarm

Soul Strike biggest counter is line of sight. Good players always abuse line of sight and that's why Soul Strike is almost never being used. Can't compare it with Death stroke . 99% of magblades will always take Death stroke over Soul Strike.

Vercingetorix

How can Soul Assault possibly over-perform if it hasn't even been touched in YEARS? Perhaps many new players are using it and you simply forgot how to hold block or break LoS.....

If I was a new player who just finished the main questline and got a shiny new Ultimate, I'd try it out too - especially when I find myself fighting brain-dead players that fail to hold block or stand at keep doors for an oil bath.

It seems the only thing that's in need of a nerf here is the amount of poor PvP players complaining that they can't face-roll every fight, instead looking for handouts to compensate for their poor skill. I got news for ya: Even if Soul Assault is nerfed, you will continue to lose fights in Cyrodiil to something else.

SodanTok

Vercingetorix wrote: »

How can Soul Assault possibly over-perform if it hasn't even been touched in YEARS? Perhaps many new players are using it and you simply forgot how to hold block or break LoS.....

If I was a new player who just finished the main questline and got a shiny new Ultimate, I'd try it out too - especially when I find myself fighting brain-dead players that fail to hold block or stand at keep doors for an oil bath.

It seems the only thing that's in need of a nerf here is the amount of poor PvP players complaining that they can't face-roll every fight, instead looking for handouts to compensate for their poor skill. I got news for ya: Even if Soul Assault is nerfed, you will continue to lose fights in Cyrodiil to something else.

Last time I checked, the time from now to september 2016 is less than YEARS
Dont you just like it when people without any clue or facts are chipping in their opinions.

Xvorg

SodanTok wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

How can Soul Assault possibly over-perform if it hasn't even been touched in YEARS? Perhaps many new players are using it and you simply forgot how to hold block or break LoS.....

If I was a new player who just finished the main questline and got a shiny new Ultimate, I'd try it out too - especially when I find myself fighting brain-dead players that fail to hold block or stand at keep doors for an oil bath.

It seems the only thing that's in need of a nerf here is the amount of poor PvP players complaining that they can't face-roll every fight, instead looking for handouts to compensate for their poor skill. I got news for ya: Even if Soul Assault is nerfed, you will continue to lose fights in Cyrodiil to something else.

Last time I checked, the time from now to september 2016 is less than YEARS
Dont you just like it when people without any clue or facts are chipping in their opinions.

Ok, so we all want old SA, right?

I mean, unblockable but interruptable

SodanTok

Xvorg wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

How can Soul Assault possibly over-perform if it hasn't even been touched in YEARS? Perhaps many new players are using it and you simply forgot how to hold block or break LoS.....

If I was a new player who just finished the main questline and got a shiny new Ultimate, I'd try it out too - especially when I find myself fighting brain-dead players that fail to hold block or stand at keep doors for an oil bath.

It seems the only thing that's in need of a nerf here is the amount of poor PvP players complaining that they can't face-roll every fight, instead looking for handouts to compensate for their poor skill. I got news for ya: Even if Soul Assault is nerfed, you will continue to lose fights in Cyrodiil to something else.

Last time I checked, the time from now to september 2016 is less than YEARS
Dont you just like it when people without any clue or facts are chipping in their opinions.

Ok, so we all want old SA, right?

I mean, unblockable but interruptable

No. Unblockable is stupid. Unless you mean undodgeable (i noticed many people are mistaking these two). The thing is One Tamriel changes removed all counters to this ability (or made them difficult) except blocking and Morrowind changes made the punishment for blocking twice as hard.
It should stay undodgable, it probably should keep its damage but blocking should not be so punishing and some other counters should be more viable (like LoS => less snare or interrupt)

Dr.NRG

This skill is cheese on steroids! It needs to go!

Vercingetorix

SodanTok wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

How can Soul Assault possibly over-perform if it hasn't even been touched in YEARS? Perhaps many new players are using it and you simply forgot how to hold block or break LoS.....

If I was a new player who just finished the main questline and got a shiny new Ultimate, I'd try it out too - especially when I find myself fighting brain-dead players that fail to hold block or stand at keep doors for an oil bath.

It seems the only thing that's in need of a nerf here is the amount of poor PvP players complaining that they can't face-roll every fight, instead looking for handouts to compensate for their poor skill. I got news for ya: Even if Soul Assault is nerfed, you will continue to lose fights in Cyrodiil to something else.

Last time I checked, the time from now to september 2016 is less than YEARS
Dont you just like it when people without any clue or facts are chipping in their opinions.

Ok, so we all want old SA, right?

I mean, unblockable but interruptable

No. Unblockable is stupid. Unless you mean undodgeable (i noticed many people are mistaking these two). The thing is One Tamriel changes removed all counters to this ability (or made them difficult) except blocking and Morrowind changes made the punishment for blocking twice as hard.
It should stay undodgable, it probably should keep its damage but blocking should not be so punishing and some other counters should be more viable (like LoS => less snare or interrupt)

Sounds like you should adapt to your environment and invest in Shadow Ward, Sturdy, and Block glyphs instead of whining like a spoiled brat, demanding the game conform to your lack of skill. Learn from your mistakes and improve - or don't and uninstall.

Chilly-McFreeze

Wow, rarely seen someone more condescending here. But however, if you can't see why SA stands out with the low cost, high damage, resource heavy counterplay then it's clear to me why you throw things like l2p around.

SodanTok

Vercingetorix wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

How can Soul Assault possibly over-perform if it hasn't even been touched in YEARS? Perhaps many new players are using it and you simply forgot how to hold block or break LoS.....

If I was a new player who just finished the main questline and got a shiny new Ultimate, I'd try it out too - especially when I find myself fighting brain-dead players that fail to hold block or stand at keep doors for an oil bath.

It seems the only thing that's in need of a nerf here is the amount of poor PvP players complaining that they can't face-roll every fight, instead looking for handouts to compensate for their poor skill. I got news for ya: Even if Soul Assault is nerfed, you will continue to lose fights in Cyrodiil to something else.

Last time I checked, the time from now to september 2016 is less than YEARS
Dont you just like it when people without any clue or facts are chipping in their opinions.

Ok, so we all want old SA, right?

I mean, unblockable but interruptable

No. Unblockable is stupid. Unless you mean undodgeable (i noticed many people are mistaking these two). The thing is One Tamriel changes removed all counters to this ability (or made them difficult) except blocking and Morrowind changes made the punishment for blocking twice as hard.
It should stay undodgable, it probably should keep its damage but blocking should not be so punishing and some other counters should be more viable (like LoS => less snare or interrupt)

Sounds like you should adapt to your environment and invest in Shadow Ward, Sturdy, and Block glyphs instead of whining like a spoiled brat, demanding the game conform to your lack of skill. Learn from your mistakes and improve - or don't and uninstall.

So after you come here knowing literally nothing and get put in place you come back angry? That is very sad. Smart cookie would refresh his knowledge and come back with apologize or at least new arguments based on updated knowledge. Then again smart cookie would no enter thread gun blazin' without ever checking if they actually know anything.

Lets not derail this anymore, mods are watching

Sinolai

I only wonder why the caster is immune to stuns and interrupts when channeling soul assault... That seems like the most logical counter play to it. Just like templar beam.

Strider_Roshin

Let's make it so it goes through damage shields. Nothing seems to get nerfed unless the magicka community whines about it.

revonine

Sinolai wrote: »

I only wonder why the caster is immune to stuns and interrupts when channeling soul assault... That seems like the most logical counter play to it. Just like templar beam.

Yeah that's how it used to be. before the buff if someone had the cheek to start the channel right in your face you could just bash it and they would have wasted their ultimate. Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow also worked.

DDuke

revonine wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

I only wonder why the caster is immune to stuns and interrupts when channeling soul assault... That seems like the most logical counter play to it. Just like templar beam.

Yeah that's how it used to be. before the buff if someone had the cheek to start the channel right in your face you could just bash it and they would have wasted their ultimate. Crushing Shock and Venom Arrow also worked.

See, that would be perfectly balanced. Even if they only removed the CC immunity that could work (though people would just cheese it with CC immunity pots I guess).

As it stands, it's an undodgeable uncloakable uninterruptable 100 ulti beam of death that either kills you or drains 17 280 stamina as you block it & possibly still kills you.

Nutshotz

As a magblade that uses this skill to kill dodge rollers, I love it especially having a TP of 103k. Now if you guys want it nerfed that's fine by me, so let's nerf birds, the healing ulti for wardens and the one that snares you.

I seem to not have an issue when someone SA's me and I'm in all light. So someone that's in all medium is QQ'ing all I have to say I pucker up buttercup.

SodanTok

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

As a magblade that uses this skill to kill dodge rollers, I love it especially having a TP of 103k. Now if you guys want it nerfed that's fine by me, so let's nerf birds, the healing ulti for wardens and the one that snares you.

I seem to not have an issue when someone SA's me and I'm in all light. So someone that's in all medium is QQ'ing all I have to say I pucker up buttercup.

Do you hold block 4 seconds and not use shield when someone SA's you in light?

olsborg

The problem with dodge and the medium armor playstyle, is that 90% of all skills that actually hits hard...is undodgeable. What if block worked that way, or dmg-shields for that matter? You think the community would stand for it?

revonine

PeaNutShotz wrote: »

As a magblade that uses this skill to kill dodge rollers, I love it especially having a TP of 103k. Now if you guys want it nerfed that's fine by me, so let's nerf birds, the healing ulti for wardens and the one that snares you.

I seem to not have an issue when someone SA's me and I'm in all light. So someone that's in all medium is QQ'ing all I have to say I pucker up buttercup.

You just can't tell people to suck it up as magicka class and as a nightblade for that matter when you can either Spam Harness Magicka and convert the Soul Assault to your magicka pool or cloak it off entirely.
I'm a stamblade main and yes I can cloak it off but what about the other classes? Stamplar ( can't recall if templar is still able to purge it), stamsorc and stamDK are royally screwed when they get hit with this ability. For a 100 ultimate you essentially get an "I win" button. When did it become acceptable that they're should be NO counterplay in PvP anymore?

If I am hit with this ability on my stamsorc I have technicaly 3 options:
Eat the ability and frantically try to heal myself, out-healing an ability with 100K tooltip, nice,
Block and therefore lose the entirety of my stamina pool to "counter" one ability,
Streak and try to LOS which frankly is very often impossible with that ridiculous 70% snare it comes with for some reason.

ForsakenSin

this is what gets me mad..

People getting killed by ability and calling it nerf when they DONT EVEN USE IT or know anything about it

Here is WHY IF you used Soul Assault you would know that is not the best ult and here is why

1) TO kill anybody and i mean ANYBODY their health mush be lower then 40% anything higher then that and your wasted it and also pray they don't out heal them self's
2) Pray they don't go around the tree rock ect as it brakes the link asap
3) Pray that within those 5 sec or so you don't die as you can't do anything
4) Pray that it hits the right person and not a NPC or the Dwemer spawn.

So please until you are actually using the damm skill stop saying b$%it you dont know just because you died when you were below the 40% of health by the soul assault dose not mean you can start bit$%ing about it to get it nerferd

And yes on my magica 50k mana i usually use it and i have never NEVER EVER killed anybody with health more then 40/50% if you die from it at full health .. i don't know what to say to you.

and guess what if it dose gets nerferd guess what i will use ? that's right the destro ulti have fun with that

DDuke

ForsakenSin wrote: »

this is what gets me mad..

People getting killed by ability and calling it nerf when they DONT EVEN USE IT or know anything about it

Already assuming things about others? Tsk tsk.

I've extensively played with/tested every single ability in the game on all 10 of my characters.

You're the one who doesn't seem to understand much about it, given what you write next:

ForsakenSin wrote: »

Here is WHY IF you used Soul Assault you would know that is not the best ult and here is why

1) TO kill anybody and i mean ANYBODY their health mush be lower then 40% anything higher then that and your wasted it and also pray they don't out heal them self's

Where did you come up with this random number? Are you aware that people have different health pools and mitigation numbers that affect that?

But let's ignore that for now and look at the math of it all:
With 80k tooltip (this is on the low end, people do get up to 100k+), that means 22 857 dmg/second - which is of course halved in Cyrodiil -> 11 428 dmg/second (not counting crits).

If the target is a medium armor user, this means 10% gets reduced by mitigation (assuming medium armor player has Major Ward & Soul Assaulter has applied Major Breach & gets the 7% pen from light armor passive).

We're now looking at 10 285 dmg/second not counting crits.

Vigor heals for 1k-1,5k/second, so we reduce that from the number and we'll end up with 9000~ damage.

Now crits. Crit chance should be around 40%~ for the Soul Assaulter and modifier around 0.70. The stamina build will get 27% critical resistance from 7x impen, so the crit modifier is 0.43.

This means that the average damage/second on a medium armor player is around 10,5k.


So yes, a single Soul Assault can (and will) kill a medium armor player who doesn't block.

A medium armor player who blocks loses 17,2k stamina doing so (and stops all stam regen for the duration) and still takes 5k dmg/second with Vigor up.


Conclusion: a single Soul Assault doesn't kill most dodge rollers from 100% (as long as they block and have impen), but it will deal a minimum of 15k damage even with the heals up.

As most medium builds tend to top off around 20-25k health, this means Soul Assault from 60-75% health range is lethal.

Your 40% is probably accurate against heavy armor, or those 30k+ health people.

ForsakenSin wrote: »

2) Pray they don't go around the tree rock ect as it brakes the link asap

In 3.5 seconds? Unless they're right next to that obstacle, it won't happen and they'll still have taken most of the damage.

ForsakenSin wrote: »

3) Pray that within those 5 sec or so you don't die as you can't do anything

3.5 seconds, and you won't die from the player you're Soul Assaulting because that player can't go on offense for that duration without dying.

ForsakenSin wrote: »

4) Pray that it hits the right person and not a NPC or the Dwemer spawn.

There's this thing called tab target that really helps. Using ultimate on the wrong thing isn't a fault in the ultimate, it's a fault in the player using it.

ForsakenSin wrote: »

So please until you are actually using the damm skill stop saying b$%it you dont know just because you died when you were below the 40% of health by the soul assault dose not mean you can start bit$%ing about it to get it nerferd

And yes on my magica 50k mana i usually use it and i have never NEVER EVER killed anybody with health more then 40/50% if you die from it at full health .. i don't know what to say to you.

The fact you've never killed anyone with Soul Assault from 40/50%+ health (especially when combined with Wrath/Curse or Purifying Light/Jbeam) speaks more about you as a player than about the ultimate. Sorry.

ForsakenSin wrote: »

and guess what if it dose gets nerferd guess what i will use ? that's right the destro ulti have fun with that

Yep, another broken undodgeable ulti.

Atleast it's more expensive and I have the option of slotting Blade Cloak to reduce its damage, or I can simply move out of the area.

ForsakenSin

@DDuke

"Already assuming things about others? Tsk tsk."

Sorry bud , but when you look on the forums its always people who got killed by some ability and want it nerferd they don't play with that class or use the ability so unfortunately by that fact i have to.

Im really glad you actually tested it out and i am surprised you believe it needs to be nerferd / changed considering that it dose have weakens and also its a ult and ult any magica class can pick up but then again this is about vs stam builds.


1) The numbers do look right and i do agree with you on that one and also you just missed one thing , using a health pot as well.


2) Yes but usually obstacles can be found everywhere and SA dose have a range also if you try using any skill or even LA attack the ult will be cancelled.


3) yhea i was not talking about 1vs 1 i always fight group against the groups so leaving me open for those few sec usually means im dead .. maybe that is why my calculation comes at 40% as they run in group so they get heals from other players.


4) true..but lag .. damm lag

5) agree

Killset

So many magica classes terrified of losing their I win button. This skill is now widely accepted in PvP as being grossly over powered. Why are the forums so slow to catch up?

SodanTok

Killset wrote: »

So many magica classes terrified of losing their I win button. This skill is now widely accepted in PvP as being grossly over powered. Why are the forums so slow to catch up?

Because they are on forum and not actually playing. So many people defending it are not even updated on recent changes since Morrowind and few even on changes from 1T. Then there the few oddballs that have PTSD from procblade ganks and think they deserve ulti that is good vs them (and OP vs any other medium build, but that is worth the pain upon stamablades in their book )

But the truly best are those that never touched medium armor in their life and come here saying the ult is joke and they never die to it.

Draqone

The simplest solution would be to allow us to cast other abilities (similar to Ballista morph) if the target is an NPC.