Viper, Tremorscale and Selene are the problem, not procsets in general

Solariken · July 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

>So destro users spamming Crushing Shock with red mountain (stamina set) is balanced to you?
>I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.
>Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong.
>Skoria is also especially strong. Fire damage, unavoidable and an AoE component. Its just not that prominent due to NB cloak suppression and templar purge countering dots. If more players played dks/sorcs in pvp like they do heal bots and nightblades Skoria would be getting QQ.

The only set you mentioned in this whole thread that is under-performing is Nerien'eth. I'd argue all the fire damage based monster sets are just as strong as the other proc sets. Im not saying the ones you have mentioned are not over-performing though.

This thread is also very stamina biased.

@GreenSoup2HoT
The Difference between Skoria for example and Selene is, that Skoria is tied to Dots, to somewhat of a condition, Selene to any damage with a higher procchance and let's not even talk about Viper. Also Selene hits way harder, 1p Bonus is a "Damage" Bonus etc. Not biased against Stamina, just want Balance.
Also, I agree that Red Mountain is overpowered on Sorc but it is somewhat balanced on a Stamina Character.

Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong

Yep, very strong but not brokenly OP most likely because its a DoT and not 6K Burst.

I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.

It is absolutely useless, ticks for 500 Damage. Used to be somewhat good, sad it is not anymore

Selene is also dodgeable and procs off melee only..

Skoria auto hits and is aoe

You can stack multiple dots while you can only do a certain amount of melee attacks in a second.

Max hp is just as good as max stam.

Red mountain isn't balanced at all. Even on a stam character.

You can do 3 Melee attacks a second, 2 when using a 2H without gimping yourself, either 45% or 30% procchance, lol

Light skill bash?

You can have 5-8 dots ticking a second easy. You don't even need to be attacking for it to proc.

Please name me 8 or even just 5 casual dots you would put up when going offensive (Volatile Damage Return does not count lol)
Anyways, don't name them, no need to derail this thread.

Edit: you not gonna bash when using a 2H, hence why I said without gimping yourself.

So 30%? Assuming then don't dodge or dodge the actual proc?

Oh i'll name them.

Volatile
Embers
Talons
Breath
2x dots from poison
Burning
Inhale counts as a dot
Bsw burning proc
Meteor/ destro ult/ standard

Anymore?

The point is magicka proc sets are just as broke as the stam ones, but yeah stam has more.

That's not how you determine proc percentages. If you flip a coin twice you don't get a 100% chance for heads and tails.

Skoria was designed with dks in mind. Also, most of those dots don't occur every second. Stacked instant damage procs are the issue, not 1 monster set.

Viper is fine, RM is fine, skoria is fine, selene, veli, OS etc are fine. BY THEMSELVES. They are BROKEN when stacked together so they occur simultaneously.

One of the few people in this thread using their brains.

Most of the other reforms people are proposing will not sole the problem.
If you turn proc into DoTs, it would favor templars way too much over the other classes

If you scale of weapon/spell damage, that does not prevent medium armed gank procblades from doing an insane amount of invisible and instant multiple burst damage.

If you put in a global cooldown, that's the most promising of the "band aid" solutions, but you're adding stress to the server and introducing even more RNG to fights.

One proc set is fine, and allows for a wider variety of effective builds. Skoria is fine: The game tells both players when the damage is coming. Even Slenes is fine: only procs on melee and I can get out of the way. The only Monster proc set that needs adjustment is Tremorescale because it offers 2 very powerful effect: a huge snare and burst damage (also it being on demand is a dubious concept).

ZoS needs to make it so the invisible and instant burst damage from 5 piece gear bonuses do not exist because it's these that are abusable since they stack with each other and a monster set. That means Viper, Red Mountain, Poisonous Serpent, etc.

@Joy_Division I see those suggestions a lot but I'm not crazy about any of them...

Most of the procs under scrutiny here have damage values at least as high as normal player abilities... So why not just give them resource costs comparable to player abilities?? Skoria can cost X magicka when it procs, Viper can cost Y stamina when it procs, etc etc.

This way if players want to stack procs they still can, but good luck because after you multi-proc me a few times and assuming I'm not dead, I'm going to flip the tables and wreck you because you wasted all your resources. XD.

I like this solution because it doesn't take anything away from players but it forces them to make real build choices instead of just getting loads of free damage on top of their high-mitigation heavy armor setup.

Universe · July 2017

I won't go through all this thread's posts.
I will say it simple:
Proc sets should never have been introduced.
They are cancerous and remove any skill from pvp.
If it was possible, I would have asked ZOS to DELETE them, but sadly it's too late.
I hope they will nerf proc sets to the ground.

itehache · July 2017

CP PVP is the real problem.

I enjoy Azura (now it has another name, can't remember it lol) and the battlegrounds SO MUCH because there are no CP. I have been practicing a lot with my guildies and far are the days where I had no chance to kill anyone in Trueflame.

Edit to add: I actually have more than 630cp, but still, I use the same character for end game pve and pvp and no-CP pvp is the best pvp.

Alucardo · July 2017

itehache wrote: »

CP PVP is the real problem.

I enjoy Azura (now it has another name, can't remember it lol) and the battlegrounds SO MUCH because there are no CP. I have been practicing a lot with my guildies and far are the days where I had no chance to kill anyone in Trueflame.

Edit to add: I actually have more than 630cp, but still, I use the same character for end game pve and pvp and no-CP pvp is the best pvp.

Are you sure you're playing ESO? These sets are more of an issue on No CP than CP.

Rikkof · July 2017

Lord wrote: »

I won't go through all this thread's posts.
I will say it simple:
Proc sets should never have been introduced.
They are cancerous and remove any skill from pvp.
If it was possible, I would have asked ZOS to DELETE them, but sadly it's too late.
I hope they will nerf proc sets to the ground.

agree with u!

Beardimus · July 2017

Proc sets are Op in PvP

And dull in PvE they just need to be nerfed to the floor

Anne_Firehawk · July 2017

itehache wrote: »

noCP PVP is the real problem.

I dont enjoy Azura (now it has another name, can't remember it lol) and the battlegrounds SO MUCH because there are no CP. I have been practicing a lot with my guildies and far are the days where I had a chance to kill anyone in Trueflame.

Works vice versa

cpuScientist · July 2017

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

>So destro users spamming Crushing Shock with red mountain (stamina set) is balanced to you?
>I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.
>Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong.
>Skoria is also especially strong. Fire damage, unavoidable and an AoE component. Its just not that prominent due to NB cloak suppression and templar purge countering dots. If more players played dks/sorcs in pvp like they do heal bots and nightblades Skoria would be getting QQ.

The only set you mentioned in this whole thread that is under-performing is Nerien'eth. I'd argue all the fire damage based monster sets are just as strong as the other proc sets. Im not saying the ones you have mentioned are not over-performing though.

This thread is also very stamina biased.

@GreenSoup2HoT
The Difference between Skoria for example and Selene is, that Skoria is tied to Dots, to somewhat of a condition, Selene to any damage with a higher procchance and let's not even talk about Viper. Also Selene hits way harder, 1p Bonus is a "Damage" Bonus etc. Not biased against Stamina, just want Balance.
Also, I agree that Red Mountain is overpowered on Sorc but it is somewhat balanced on a Stamina Character.

Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong

Yep, very strong but not brokenly OP most likely because its a DoT and not 6K Burst.

I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.

It is absolutely useless, ticks for 500 Damage. Used to be somewhat good, sad it is not anymore

Edit:

I also believe each set needs to be adjusted individually, will require more work but will be vastly better then blanket fixes.

I would buy this as a DLC for 15€ @ZOS

No I'd argue that Selene is not as good as skoria tbh. Selene is tied to melee damage, as in the dangerous zone needs to be entered to get a proc. Skoria can be procced even if you are not there. A magblade procs it with just cripple. A Templar with just vamp bane. Valkyn is as "bad" as Selene. Just heavy attacking with a resto for resources procs a dang valkyn meteor. HOWEVER I think both these sets are fine. They are very well telegraphed and are in a good place.

Red mountain, viper, Widowmaker... These sets are the problematic ones as they proc frequently and provide strong burst. And have no telegraph. It's these 5 piece sets that need to go or be changed in some significant way.

Overwhelming surge is not very good it's not AOE it's single target and you can't control who it hits, it is a good sustained damage set to keep up some pressure much like grothdar. However when it is procced it's very easy to see it. And you can react to it. These kinds of sets are not as bad imo, but still ....

In my opinion, most of the monster sets are well thought out and have telegraphs that let you know what's coming, but are strong to compensate, they allow classes like magDK to apply some burst or gain sustain, they need some rebalancing of the older sets but these are the types of sets that are great for adding variety. It's the 5 piece sets that deal invisible damage that are problematic, they are free non cooldown skills that makes fights to RNG based and offer no counter play.

Drakkdjinn · July 2017

Naw the problem is forum QQ'ers who whine instead of learn how to play properly in noCP b/c they're used to training wheels PvP.

Anne_Firehawk · July 2017

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Naw the problem is forum QQ'ers who whine instead of learn how to play properly in noCP b/c they're used to training wheels PvP.

You sound like a proud Xv1er who plays in first person

Smmokkee · July 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Viper
Selene
Tremorscale
Red mountain
Skoria
Grothdarr

are the problem

Can we not blanket nerf everything and kill sets like winterborn off please?

Now wait a second. Grothdarr is fine, if looking at things from a PvE perspective. Skoria as well. Please do not go saying things like that, and having PvE players (mainly MagDK's and MagPlars) get pseudo-nerfed from things over-performing in a PvP environment. That's how a lot of this mess got started to begin with. ZOS hurting PvE, from things going on in PvP.

From a pve perspective none of these sets need a nerf. We are clearly talking about pvp here though and all of them deserve a nerf. PvE will always hurt because of Pvp in this game the good thing is its so easy the nerfs are mangeable.

Smmokkee · July 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Lol Skoria is just as op as Selenes.

But Skoria comes with a trade-off. You´re forced to use DoTs for it to proc, and 1 single DoT is rarely enough for it to proc, so you´ve to use multipled DoT´s for even a decent chance to to occur. With more DoT´s you sacrifice burst damage (which Skoria is supposed to give you some). A fair trade off if you ask me. It´s also funny that people complaining about Skoria being OP only when BG´s was released. I might have missed some forum posts, but I can´t remember the last time BEFORE morrowind someone thought Skoria was "OP". So is this a non-CP problem or a proc-problem (regarding only Skoria)?? Sounds more like a non-cp problem if you ask me........

Pssh MagDks make that thing proc like its going out of style. (Which it probably is, LOL) Also it can hit you from the grave.. also its just as bugged as selene with not showing the animation.

Anne_Firehawk · July 2017

@smmokkee
Magicka Dots are kinda weak tho

Asardes · July 2017

IMO they should increase the proc time on Viper to 6s and decrease the proc chance to 20%. Then it will be balanced.

ZoM_Head · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Viper
Selene
Tremorscale
Red mountain
Skoria
Grothdarr

are the problem

Can we not blanket nerf everything and kill sets like winterborn off please?

Skoria a problem? Seriously? So one must come into melee and put 2 dots on you at least (which can be purged) to deal anything from 3.7K to 5.8K damage (depending on your set up). How is Skoria a "problem" compared to Selene hitting for 8-10K from any attack? or Viper proccing as well from any melee damage? Grothdarr barely does 700 dmg ticks every second and you need to be in melee as well to get hit from it.

I see fare more issues than undodgable soul assault and cliff racer than Skoria and Grothdarr.

Malic · July 2017

in every MMO the problem no one wants to talk about are the players. They wear the sets, they refuse to wear sets that can counter the proc sets.

No amount of crying about procs is going to fix the problem. This is why gaming companies often make their games so simple to play because they cant change player behavior OR they become addicted to revenue streams and are unwilling to make hard choices that will *** people off but maintain the integrity of the game.

I mean viper has been in the game A LONG TIME, suddenly its the bane of the game. Nope, its the players, it always has been and it always will be.

Kalante · July 2017

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

I am afraid that in an order to fix the sets named above, ZOS will absolutely destroy those sets which are fairly balanced right now. Skoria, Nerien'eth and Grothdarr and even Red Mountain are all examples on how procsets should work, either tied to conditions of procing or moderate damage and not this "Scratch your bum, deal 5K Damage, 4s cooldown"-BS like it currently is with Viper, Selene and Tremorscale. Ridiculous damage tied to high procchances and easy conditions with small cooldowns is what making those sets absolutely broken, especially in NoCP.

A good example for a set that has been absolutely destroyed in the past by a blanket nerf is Overwhelming Surge, absolutely useless now - used to be surprisingly good for niche builds.

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel
Please look at each set individually and don't do blanket changes.

and grothar and valkyn is not a problem that they can just simply hit 100% of the time and reveal? Biased thread for magicka is biased. Also red mountain is broken when paired with tremor scale and viper. You clearly don't pvp. This is why games go downhill. A community that knows nothing and developers that know nothing.

madchuska83 · July 2017

And now I'm gonna go farm this gear. I've got a NB that was my first character, but I never play him. Might as well dip my toes in PvP with some gear that pesters the *** out of people.

ZoM_Head · July 2017

Malic wrote: »

in every MMO the problem no one wants to talk about are the players. They wear the sets, they refuse to wear sets that can counter the proc sets.

No amount of crying about procs is going to fix the problem. This is why gaming companies often make their games so simple to play because they cant change player behavior OR they become addicted to revenue streams and are unwilling to make hard choices that will *** people off but maintain the integrity of the game.

I mean viper has been in the game A LONG TIME, suddenly its the bane of the game. Nope, its the players, it always has been and it always will be.

Viper was never a problem because we never had stamina skill morphs for classes, and stamina was absolutely garbage from day 1 ESO till Imperial City update AND the addition to CP system. Then the constant changes to the sets and CP made viper slowly creep up. It is just like SIlks of the Sun set, which was introduced with Craglorn DLC and in HRC with a 5% damage bonus to all flame abilities, not a flat 400 spell dmg.

So yeah saying that a set like viper has been in the game " a long time" is barely making a point.

TequilaFire · July 2017

Skoria is just fine and been in the game a very long time, it is one of the more properly designed proc sets.
The problem once again is being able to combine multiple proc sets.

Koensol · July 2017

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Naw the problem is forum QQ'ers who whine instead of learn how to play properly in noCP b/c they're used to training wheels PvP.

The procs are strong in this one...

Alpheu5 · July 2017

Proc sets have been in the game forever.

One Tamriel just made us able to mix and match them all WAY more easily, and at the maximum level. I doubt you'd see a huge amount of them being used it they were capped at cp140 or even cp120 still.

Huyen · July 2017

And Selene's is downright crap in PvE for any stamina-class, while the animation is really cool for a warden. Such a shame...

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

TequilaFire wrote: »

Skoria is just fine and been in the game a very long time, it is one of the more properly designed proc sets.
The problem once again is being able to combine multiple proc sets.

i dunno. it was fine before it was buffed. the buff was overkill and made it over the top.

Anne_Firehawk · July 2017

Kalante wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

I am afraid that in an order to fix the sets named above, ZOS will absolutely destroy those sets which are fairly balanced right now. Skoria, Nerien'eth and Grothdarr and even Red Mountain are all examples on how procsets should work, either tied to conditions of procing or moderate damage and not this "Scratch your bum, deal 5K Damage, 4s cooldown"-BS like it currently is with Viper, Selene and Tremorscale. Ridiculous damage tied to high procchances and easy conditions with small cooldowns is what making those sets absolutely broken, especially in NoCP.

A good example for a set that has been absolutely destroyed in the past by a blanket nerf is Overwhelming Surge, absolutely useless now - used to be surprisingly good for niche builds.

@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel
Please look at each set individually and don't do blanket changes.

and grothar and valkyn is not a problem that they can just simply hit 100% of the time and reveal? Biased thread for magicka is biased. Also red mountain is broken when paired with tremor scale and viper. You clearly don't pvp. This is why games go downhill. A community that knows nothing and developers that know nothing.

Skoria can be cloaked

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Skoria is just fine and been in the game a very long time, it is one of the more properly designed proc sets.
The problem once again is being able to combine multiple proc sets.

i dunno. it was fine before it was buffed. the buff was overkill and made it over the top.

It got nerfed in IC, then nerfed again after that then buffed again, it is still WAY weaker than it was in 1.6, but nobody cried about it

Joy_Division · July 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

>So destro users spamming Crushing Shock with red mountain (stamina set) is balanced to you?
>I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.
>Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong.
>Skoria is also especially strong. Fire damage, unavoidable and an AoE component. Its just not that prominent due to NB cloak suppression and templar purge countering dots. If more players played dks/sorcs in pvp like they do heal bots and nightblades Skoria would be getting QQ.

The only set you mentioned in this whole thread that is under-performing is Nerien'eth. I'd argue all the fire damage based monster sets are just as strong as the other proc sets. Im not saying the ones you have mentioned are not over-performing though.

This thread is also very stamina biased.

@GreenSoup2HoT
The Difference between Skoria for example and Selene is, that Skoria is tied to Dots, to somewhat of a condition, Selene to any damage with a higher procchance and let's not even talk about Viper. Also Selene hits way harder, 1p Bonus is a "Damage" Bonus etc. Not biased against Stamina, just want Balance.
Also, I agree that Red Mountain is overpowered on Sorc but it is somewhat balanced on a Stamina Character.

Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong

Yep, very strong but not brokenly OP most likely because its a DoT and not 6K Burst.

I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.

It is absolutely useless, ticks for 500 Damage. Used to be somewhat good, sad it is not anymore

Selene is also dodgeable and procs off melee only..

Skoria auto hits and is aoe

You can stack multiple dots while you can only do a certain amount of melee attacks in a second.

Max hp is just as good as max stam.

Red mountain isn't balanced at all. Even on a stam character.

You can do 3 Melee attacks a second, 2 when using a 2H without gimping yourself, either 45% or 30% procchance, lol

Light skill bash?

You can have 5-8 dots ticking a second easy. You don't even need to be attacking for it to proc.

Please name me 8 or even just 5 casual dots you would put up when going offensive (Volatile Damage Return does not count lol)
Anyways, don't name them, no need to derail this thread.

Edit: you not gonna bash when using a 2H, hence why I said without gimping yourself.

So 30%? Assuming then don't dodge or dodge the actual proc?

Oh i'll name them.

Volatile
Embers
Talons
Breath
2x dots from poison
Burning
Inhale counts as a dot
Bsw burning proc
Meteor/ destro ult/ standard

Anymore?

The point is magicka proc sets are just as broke as the stam ones, but yeah stam has more.

That's not how you determine proc percentages. If you flip a coin twice you don't get a 100% chance for heads and tails.

Skoria was designed with dks in mind. Also, most of those dots don't occur every second. Stacked instant damage procs are the issue, not 1 monster set.

Viper is fine, RM is fine, skoria is fine, selene, veli, OS etc are fine. BY THEMSELVES. They are BROKEN when stacked together so they occur simultaneously.

One of the few people in this thread using their brains.

Most of the other reforms people are proposing will not sole the problem.
If you turn proc into DoTs, it would favor templars way too much over the other classes

If you scale of weapon/spell damage, that does not prevent medium armed gank procblades from doing an insane amount of invisible and instant multiple burst damage.

If you put in a global cooldown, that's the most promising of the "band aid" solutions, but you're adding stress to the server and introducing even more RNG to fights.

One proc set is fine, and allows for a wider variety of effective builds. Skoria is fine: The game tells both players when the damage is coming. Even Slenes is fine: only procs on melee and I can get out of the way. The only Monster proc set that needs adjustment is Tremorescale because it offers 2 very powerful effect: a huge snare and burst damage (also it being on demand is a dubious concept).

ZoS needs to make it so the invisible and instant burst damage from 5 piece gear bonuses do not exist because it's these that are abusable since they stack with each other and a monster set. That means Viper, Red Mountain, Poisonous Serpent, etc.

@Joy_Division I see those suggestions a lot but I'm not crazy about any of them...

Most of the procs under scrutiny here have damage values at least as high as normal player abilities... So why not just give them resource costs comparable to player abilities?? Skoria can cost X magicka when it procs, Viper can cost Y stamina when it procs, etc etc.

This way if players want to stack procs they still can, but good luck because after you multi-proc me a few times and assuming I'm not dead, I'm going to flip the tables and wreck you because you wasted all your resources. XD.

I like this solution because it doesn't take anything away from players but it forces them to make real build choices instead of just getting loads of free damage on top of their high-mitigation heavy armor setup.

There's no way in Oblivion I'd want to be charged resources for some random structured entropy proc; never and most certainly not now that ZoS nerfed the crap out of us.

These proc sets would all become very inefficient; I most certainly would always run Bloodspawn, Troll King, or some other good "free" set and I think most other players would as well. I suppose that's one way to solve the proc set scoruge, but its just nerfing them to uselessness.

Plus the PvE crowd would never stand for it and I wouldn't blame them.

I don't have a problem with players attacking me with a single proc set so I don't see a reason to nerf that sort of build.

Solariken · July 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

>So destro users spamming Crushing Shock with red mountain (stamina set) is balanced to you?
>I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.
>Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong.
>Skoria is also especially strong. Fire damage, unavoidable and an AoE component. Its just not that prominent due to NB cloak suppression and templar purge countering dots. If more players played dks/sorcs in pvp like they do heal bots and nightblades Skoria would be getting QQ.

The only set you mentioned in this whole thread that is under-performing is Nerien'eth. I'd argue all the fire damage based monster sets are just as strong as the other proc sets. Im not saying the ones you have mentioned are not over-performing though.

This thread is also very stamina biased.

@GreenSoup2HoT
The Difference between Skoria for example and Selene is, that Skoria is tied to Dots, to somewhat of a condition, Selene to any damage with a higher procchance and let's not even talk about Viper. Also Selene hits way harder, 1p Bonus is a "Damage" Bonus etc. Not biased against Stamina, just want Balance.
Also, I agree that Red Mountain is overpowered on Sorc but it is somewhat balanced on a Stamina Character.

Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong

Yep, very strong but not brokenly OP most likely because its a DoT and not 6K Burst.

I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.

It is absolutely useless, ticks for 500 Damage. Used to be somewhat good, sad it is not anymore

Selene is also dodgeable and procs off melee only..

Skoria auto hits and is aoe

You can stack multiple dots while you can only do a certain amount of melee attacks in a second.

Max hp is just as good as max stam.

Red mountain isn't balanced at all. Even on a stam character.

You can do 3 Melee attacks a second, 2 when using a 2H without gimping yourself, either 45% or 30% procchance, lol

Light skill bash?

You can have 5-8 dots ticking a second easy. You don't even need to be attacking for it to proc.

Please name me 8 or even just 5 casual dots you would put up when going offensive (Volatile Damage Return does not count lol)
Anyways, don't name them, no need to derail this thread.

Edit: you not gonna bash when using a 2H, hence why I said without gimping yourself.

So 30%? Assuming then don't dodge or dodge the actual proc?

Oh i'll name them.

Volatile
Embers
Talons
Breath
2x dots from poison
Burning
Inhale counts as a dot
Bsw burning proc
Meteor/ destro ult/ standard

Anymore?

The point is magicka proc sets are just as broke as the stam ones, but yeah stam has more.

That's not how you determine proc percentages. If you flip a coin twice you don't get a 100% chance for heads and tails.

Skoria was designed with dks in mind. Also, most of those dots don't occur every second. Stacked instant damage procs are the issue, not 1 monster set.

Viper is fine, RM is fine, skoria is fine, selene, veli, OS etc are fine. BY THEMSELVES. They are BROKEN when stacked together so they occur simultaneously.

One of the few people in this thread using their brains.

Most of the other reforms people are proposing will not sole the problem.
If you turn proc into DoTs, it would favor templars way too much over the other classes

If you scale of weapon/spell damage, that does not prevent medium armed gank procblades from doing an insane amount of invisible and instant multiple burst damage.

If you put in a global cooldown, that's the most promising of the "band aid" solutions, but you're adding stress to the server and introducing even more RNG to fights.

One proc set is fine, and allows for a wider variety of effective builds. Skoria is fine: The game tells both players when the damage is coming. Even Slenes is fine: only procs on melee and I can get out of the way. The only Monster proc set that needs adjustment is Tremorescale because it offers 2 very powerful effect: a huge snare and burst damage (also it being on demand is a dubious concept).

ZoS needs to make it so the invisible and instant burst damage from 5 piece gear bonuses do not exist because it's these that are abusable since they stack with each other and a monster set. That means Viper, Red Mountain, Poisonous Serpent, etc.

@Joy_Division I see those suggestions a lot but I'm not crazy about any of them...

Most of the procs under scrutiny here have damage values at least as high as normal player abilities... So why not just give them resource costs comparable to player abilities?? Skoria can cost X magicka when it procs, Viper can cost Y stamina when it procs, etc etc.

This way if players want to stack procs they still can, but good luck because after you multi-proc me a few times and assuming I'm not dead, I'm going to flip the tables and wreck you because you wasted all your resources. XD.

I like this solution because it doesn't take anything away from players but it forces them to make real build choices instead of just getting loads of free damage on top of their high-mitigation heavy armor setup.

There's no way in Oblivion I'd want to be charged resources for some random structured entropy proc; never and most certainly not now that ZoS nerfed the crap out of us.

These proc sets would all become very inefficient; I most certainly would always run Bloodspawn, Troll King, or some other good "free" set and I think most other players would as well. I suppose that's one way to solve the proc set scoruge, but its just nerfing them to uselessness.

Plus the PvE crowd would never stand for it and I wouldn't blame them.

I don't have a problem with players attacking me with a single proc set so I don't see a reason to nerf that sort of build.

I know, it would suck to a degree but isn't it the least bad solution so far? All the other ideas I've heard result in much more explicit nerfs and present with as many new problems as would be solved.

Edit: also with adding a resource cost it would be appropriate to return the crit capability to all damage/heal procs.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

>So destro users spamming Crushing Shock with red mountain (stamina set) is balanced to you?
>I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.
>Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong.
>Skoria is also especially strong. Fire damage, unavoidable and an AoE component. Its just not that prominent due to NB cloak suppression and templar purge countering dots. If more players played dks/sorcs in pvp like they do heal bots and nightblades Skoria would be getting QQ.

The only set you mentioned in this whole thread that is under-performing is Nerien'eth. I'd argue all the fire damage based monster sets are just as strong as the other proc sets. Im not saying the ones you have mentioned are not over-performing though.

This thread is also very stamina biased.

@GreenSoup2HoT
The Difference between Skoria for example and Selene is, that Skoria is tied to Dots, to somewhat of a condition, Selene to any damage with a higher procchance and let's not even talk about Viper. Also Selene hits way harder, 1p Bonus is a "Damage" Bonus etc. Not biased against Stamina, just want Balance.
Also, I agree that Red Mountain is overpowered on Sorc but it is somewhat balanced on a Stamina Character.

Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong

Yep, very strong but not brokenly OP most likely because its a DoT and not 6K Burst.

I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.

It is absolutely useless, ticks for 500 Damage. Used to be somewhat good, sad it is not anymore

Selene is also dodgeable and procs off melee only..

Skoria auto hits and is aoe

You can stack multiple dots while you can only do a certain amount of melee attacks in a second.

Max hp is just as good as max stam.

Red mountain isn't balanced at all. Even on a stam character.

You can do 3 Melee attacks a second, 2 when using a 2H without gimping yourself, either 45% or 30% procchance, lol

Light skill bash?

You can have 5-8 dots ticking a second easy. You don't even need to be attacking for it to proc.

Please name me 8 or even just 5 casual dots you would put up when going offensive (Volatile Damage Return does not count lol)
Anyways, don't name them, no need to derail this thread.

Edit: you not gonna bash when using a 2H, hence why I said without gimping yourself.

So 30%? Assuming then don't dodge or dodge the actual proc?

Oh i'll name them.

Volatile
Embers
Talons
Breath
2x dots from poison
Burning
Inhale counts as a dot
Bsw burning proc
Meteor/ destro ult/ standard

Anymore?

The point is magicka proc sets are just as broke as the stam ones, but yeah stam has more.

That's not how you determine proc percentages. If you flip a coin twice you don't get a 100% chance for heads and tails.

Skoria was designed with dks in mind. Also, most of those dots don't occur every second. Stacked instant damage procs are the issue, not 1 monster set.

Viper is fine, RM is fine, skoria is fine, selene, veli, OS etc are fine. BY THEMSELVES. They are BROKEN when stacked together so they occur simultaneously.

One of the few people in this thread using their brains.

Most of the other reforms people are proposing will not sole the problem.
If you turn proc into DoTs, it would favor templars way too much over the other classes

If you scale of weapon/spell damage, that does not prevent medium armed gank procblades from doing an insane amount of invisible and instant multiple burst damage.

If you put in a global cooldown, that's the most promising of the "band aid" solutions, but you're adding stress to the server and introducing even more RNG to fights.

One proc set is fine, and allows for a wider variety of effective builds. Skoria is fine: The game tells both players when the damage is coming. Even Slenes is fine: only procs on melee and I can get out of the way. The only Monster proc set that needs adjustment is Tremorescale because it offers 2 very powerful effect: a huge snare and burst damage (also it being on demand is a dubious concept).

ZoS needs to make it so the invisible and instant burst damage from 5 piece gear bonuses do not exist because it's these that are abusable since they stack with each other and a monster set. That means Viper, Red Mountain, Poisonous Serpent, etc.

@Joy_Division I see those suggestions a lot but I'm not crazy about any of them...

Most of the procs under scrutiny here have damage values at least as high as normal player abilities... So why not just give them resource costs comparable to player abilities?? Skoria can cost X magicka when it procs, Viper can cost Y stamina when it procs, etc etc.

This way if players want to stack procs they still can, but good luck because after you multi-proc me a few times and assuming I'm not dead, I'm going to flip the tables and wreck you because you wasted all your resources. XD.

I like this solution because it doesn't take anything away from players but it forces them to make real build choices instead of just getting loads of free damage on top of their high-mitigation heavy armor setup.

There's no way in Oblivion I'd want to be charged resources for some random structured entropy proc; never and most certainly not now that ZoS nerfed the crap out of us.

These proc sets would all become very inefficient; I most certainly would always run Bloodspawn, Troll King, or some other good "free" set and I think most other players would as well. I suppose that's one way to solve the proc set scoruge, but its just nerfing them to uselessness.

Plus the PvE crowd would never stand for it and I wouldn't blame them.

I don't have a problem with players attacking me with a single proc set so I don't see a reason to nerf that sort of build.

I know, it would suck to a degree but isn't it the least bad solution so far? All the other ideas I've heard result in much more explicit nerfs and present with as many new problems as would be solved.

Edit: also with adding a resource cost it would be appropriate to return the crit capability to all damage/heal procs.

how is adding scaling to proc sets hard to do.... its simply a formula and boom everything is fixed. no more heavy proc users with insane free damage or medium/light builds stacking proc sets. you need damage for procs to even be worth when it scales.

ZoM_Head · July 2017

madchuska83 wrote: »

And now I'm gonna go farm this gear. I've got a NB that was my first character, but I never play him. Might as well dip my toes in PvP with some gear that pesters the *** out of people.

I have a stamblade friend who didnt wish to follow the meta, and suffered for it. It has been 1 week since he has been running viper, and just yesterday he said how much easier everything is and how he procs everything with 1 ambush nearly every time.

He is enjoying it as well as saddened by it, enjoying it because it is a 1 button win build

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Proc sets have been in the game forever.

One Tamriel just made us able to mix and match them all WAY more easily, and at the maximum level. I doubt you'd see a huge amount of them being used it they were capped at cp140 or even cp120 still.

That is not correct, we did not have any kind of proc sets until the undaunted enclave was introduced along with the justice system. You remember right? it was the time where VR14 was out and we were blasting SO for a good 8 months+ before getting any update since console release was pushed back?