Viper, Tremorscale and Selene are the problem, not procsets in general

AdicusDio

Kay1 wrote: »

People arguing about nerfing proc sets...

They don't need a direct nerf, just nerf the amount of proc sets you can use, 1 should be the limit.

If this happens, then we need to nerf tanks to 20k health and nerf all their cool downs to 50 seconds. We also need to nerf healers witrh 50 sec. cool downs to prevent spamming heals or damage shields, etc. or whatever they get to spam that dps don't have access to.

Every build has a trait that's overpowered. Avoid end-game capped cp players.

Hempyre

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Selene can be dodged. Viper needs no telegraph, it simply hits every 4 seconds.
Pro tip - use evasion, roll dodge or simply block, if stamina user. CCing helps as well. If magicka user, spam shields.

No *** sherlock. But at one point in the fight you will get cc'ed, and when you do and that stuff procs, you are either dead or within execute range.

And why shouldn't you die? You got cc'd and didn't break... , Didn't have enough stam, whatev.

I fail to see the issue with bad play causing death..

Please enlighten.

Lol, tell me how and WHEN I should CC break when I get hit from incap (stun) which immediately procs viper and selene. Please enlighten?

But don't tell me I should be able to dodge/block EVERY attack thrown at me. It is bs. At one point you will take a hit. And 1 hit shouldn't mean going from 100% to 25% or less. Period.

And bad play? Pfff how ironic. Proc sets are just that: a solution for bad players to be able to kill others. Its utter cheese mode. Combat should be about skill not rng.

Ok, I'll tell you...

You run imov pots.

and/or

You gear/play appropriately.

You've set up your toon your way. If that's left you more susceptible to CC + damage, that's on you.

I get NB's pulling that incap/poison/surprise/proc all the time and occasionally it takes me down. However usually I mash breakfree, hit an imov/heal, stun/dot the nb and run him down. It's not like they have any other tricks.

I have a cheeseproc stamblade too, they're fun but super squishy (usually, there are some solid players out there too) and ya It wrecks people frequently. But that's on them, there are tons of players that can turn and burn regardless of proc cheese. Keep in mind, there's no guarantee that procs go off, it's a gamble for the proc user too.

I usually run an HA magplar. I could be in LA and do more damage, but then I'd be more susceptible to the gank builds. That's my call. If I find I'm still getting banged on I switch sets to go more tanky/heals, at the expense of damage. Again, my call. If you don't have that flexibility, that's on you.

Proc sets add a necessary chaos to pvp. It's pretty easy to math out a build to be near unkillable based on standard skills/gear. Proc sets force quick thinking, and changes in playstyle.

Call it whatever you want, proc sets change predictability in pvp and that's a good thing.

You are missing both my point and the overal big picture. Look, I know that there are counters. I said that before. But the problem is that playing without procs takes so much more skill and effort. Procs like viper and selene don't take any skill. It's just a matter of "hey lets jump that guy!", your stuff procs and hes dead. And like you said, you will get hit. I like to be able to counter stuff that people use against me. If I play bad, get caught on my horse and make the wrong moves and I die, that is completely fine. But there is something excruciatingly frustrating when you see Incap, viper, selene and executioner on your recap and you know you had almost no chance. All with the press of 1 or 2 buttons. Combinations of burst procs like that just don't have any place in PvP in its current form. The balance between skill/effort and damage output is just not there at the moment.

I see proc sets as providing a little rng magic to help change the predictability of combat. They provide opportunity and chance to help less experienced players not be cannon fodder for the higher skilled and better built. It doesn't matter that they take no skill, that's the point of them. Both can use them, both enjoy the risk and reward of their use equally. Others can build to counter or choose not to.

Yea let's provide bad players a tool to score cheesy kills on more skilled players just by mashing 1 button. Let's not reward and stimulate effort, skill and good tactics. No... let's keep it easy and cheesy. If that is your idea of good game design and challenge, then I have nothing more to say.

You didn't understand what I wrote, but I applaud your choice.

Malic

Valencer wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Players expectations and assumption that other players should adhere to what they think is the correct way to play a game is, was and always will be the core "problem" with MMO's.

Proc set builds can be countered, if you are unwilling to do a build to counter it the entirety of the community and the sets should not be made to adhere to your shortcomings.

Sadly though, MMO companies care more about your money then they do about the impact of their coddling of you in their game.

Congratulations, youre the problem.

That's cute. Im guessing you're either a procblade or completely clueless.

The counter to instantly getting 10k health shaved off by viper + selene/velidreth/tremorscale is... what exactly?

Higher health, higher mitigation. Are you clueless? Wasnt that obvious?

Im guessing youre one of those snow flakes that runs around and wants to be able to kill others but doesnt like it when your killed. Of course ITS NEVER YOU, its ALWAYS the other player or the sets he is using. Youre also probably one of those players who will whine on an mmo forum because something isnt working the way you think it should.

There are many different types of people in life, some go through assuming that if there is a problem its up to someone else to fix it. There are others who, with the same issue, solve the problem.

BTW youre not cute, youre ugly and a shinning representation of whats wrong with MMO games post 2010. Companies cater to players like you, and games get watered down and simplistic. Im betting years ago you were one of the people who whined about boss mechanics and as a result dev put A BIG RED CIRCLE on the ground, fixing your problem for you.

LOL

AdicusDio

Back when CoD 3 was around, they had pre-made classes. Game was actually pretty fun. If PvP is such an issue with ESO because 4k damage wipes you, maybe they just need to force pre-made classes unto everyone so it's entirely balanced. Everyone gets the same blanket-generic stats, generic damage, defense, and healing, etc. so it's more akin to an actual army squad.....

DRXHarbinger

Valencer wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Players expectations and assumption that other players should adhere to what they think is the correct way to play a game is, was and always will be the core "problem" with MMO's.

Proc set builds can be countered, if you are unwilling to do a build to counter it the entirety of the community and the sets should not be made to adhere to your shortcomings.

Sadly though, MMO companies care more about your money then they do about the impact of their coddling of you in their game.

Congratulations, youre the problem.

That's cute. Im guessing you're either a procblade or completely clueless.

The counter to instantly getting 10k health shaved off by viper + selene/velidreth/tremorscale is... what exactly?

10K? Bruh you must be tanky as ***.

Also...Prismatic Glyphs, Master Sorc/Magplar..heck any Mag Vamp toon slayer... 2H Axe, Crit Rush and Prismatic Goes off and crits for 10K, Viper+Veli+RM all at once = Instagibbed, If not = Very very very close to death that an Executioner will most certainly end you.

I don't find Tumorscale an issue tbh, you can see it a mile off from anyone coming at you with a S&B and trying to get all stabby on you, But instant death like the above is ***, cannot be blocked or countered at all unless already in mist form or if shuffle procs, but at this point I've probably been hit with a resource draining poison and they are already steaming into my face Axe in the air n all.

Koensol

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Selene can be dodged. Viper needs no telegraph, it simply hits every 4 seconds.
Pro tip - use evasion, roll dodge or simply block, if stamina user. CCing helps as well. If magicka user, spam shields.

No *** sherlock. But at one point in the fight you will get cc'ed, and when you do and that stuff procs, you are either dead or within execute range.

And why shouldn't you die? You got cc'd and didn't break... , Didn't have enough stam, whatev.

I fail to see the issue with bad play causing death..

Please enlighten.

Lol, tell me how and WHEN I should CC break when I get hit from incap (stun) which immediately procs viper and selene. Please enlighten?

But don't tell me I should be able to dodge/block EVERY attack thrown at me. It is bs. At one point you will take a hit. And 1 hit shouldn't mean going from 100% to 25% or less. Period.

And bad play? Pfff how ironic. Proc sets are just that: a solution for bad players to be able to kill others. Its utter cheese mode. Combat should be about skill not rng.

Ok, I'll tell you...

You run imov pots.

and/or

You gear/play appropriately.

You've set up your toon your way. If that's left you more susceptible to CC + damage, that's on you.

I get NB's pulling that incap/poison/surprise/proc all the time and occasionally it takes me down. However usually I mash breakfree, hit an imov/heal, stun/dot the nb and run him down. It's not like they have any other tricks.

I have a cheeseproc stamblade too, they're fun but super squishy (usually, there are some solid players out there too) and ya It wrecks people frequently. But that's on them, there are tons of players that can turn and burn regardless of proc cheese. Keep in mind, there's no guarantee that procs go off, it's a gamble for the proc user too.

I usually run an HA magplar. I could be in LA and do more damage, but then I'd be more susceptible to the gank builds. That's my call. If I find I'm still getting banged on I switch sets to go more tanky/heals, at the expense of damage. Again, my call. If you don't have that flexibility, that's on you.

Proc sets add a necessary chaos to pvp. It's pretty easy to math out a build to be near unkillable based on standard skills/gear. Proc sets force quick thinking, and changes in playstyle.

Call it whatever you want, proc sets change predictability in pvp and that's a good thing.

You are missing both my point and the overal big picture. Look, I know that there are counters. I said that before. But the problem is that playing without procs takes so much more skill and effort. Procs like viper and selene don't take any skill. It's just a matter of "hey lets jump that guy!", your stuff procs and hes dead. And like you said, you will get hit. I like to be able to counter stuff that people use against me. If I play bad, get caught on my horse and make the wrong moves and I die, that is completely fine. But there is something excruciatingly frustrating when you see Incap, viper, selene and executioner on your recap and you know you had almost no chance. All with the press of 1 or 2 buttons. Combinations of burst procs like that just don't have any place in PvP in its current form. The balance between skill/effort and damage output is just not there at the moment.

I see proc sets as providing a little rng magic to help change the predictability of combat. They provide opportunity and chance to help less experienced players not be cannon fodder for the higher skilled and better built. It doesn't matter that they take no skill, that's the point of them. Both can use them, both enjoy the risk and reward of their use equally. Others can build to counter or choose not to.

Yea let's provide bad players a tool to score cheesy kills on more skilled players just by mashing 1 button. Let's not reward and stimulate effort, skill and good tactics. No... let's keep it easy and cheesy. If that is your idea of good game design and challenge, then I have nothing more to say.

You didn't understand what I wrote, but I applaud your choice.

"They provide opportunity and chance to help less experienced players not be cannon fodder for the higher skilled and better built. It doesn't matter that they take no skill, that's the point of them."

No... that's totally not what you said.

Valencer

Malic wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Players expectations and assumption that other players should adhere to what they think is the correct way to play a game is, was and always will be the core "problem" with MMO's.

Proc set builds can be countered, if you are unwilling to do a build to counter it the entirety of the community and the sets should not be made to adhere to your shortcomings.

Sadly though, MMO companies care more about your money then they do about the impact of their coddling of you in their game.

Congratulations, youre the problem.

That's cute. Im guessing you're either a procblade or completely clueless.

The counter to instantly getting 10k health shaved off by viper + selene/velidreth/tremorscale is... what exactly?

Higher health, higher mitigation. Are you clueless? Wasnt that obvious?

Im guessing youre one of those snow flakes that runs around and wants to be able to kill others but doesnt like it when your killed. Of course ITS NEVER YOU, its ALWAYS the other player or the sets he is using. Youre also probably one of those players who will whine on an mmo forum because something isnt working the way you think it should.

There are many different types of people in life, some go through assuming that if there is a problem its up to someone else to fix it. There are others who, with the same issue, solve the problem.

BTW youre not cute, youre ugly and a shinning representation of whats wrong with MMO games post 2010. Companies cater to players like you, and games get watered down and simplistic. Im betting years ago you were one of the people who whined about boss mechanics and as a result dev put A BIG RED CIRCLE on the ground, fixing your problem for you.

LOL

Mate, Ive been playing a procblade for the past few days and it's miles ahead of any other build Ive ever played or am playing right now. Stop trying to fool everyone with your nonsense.

The problem with you and your big mouth is you don't understand that it's exactly the sets and gear options like this garbage that waters the game down and makes it simplistic. The gear you equip is doing 10k instant burst damage for you on a damn light attack or ransack and borderline killing people for you, and that's not dumbed down and simplistic compared to having to combo actual abilities for doing proper burst damage? Ill keep saying it - even a monkey can play this and be threatening.

Here you are trying to argue that someone who's against this being a thing is in fact the one trying to get the devs to water the game down and make it even more simplistic. Do you realise how stupid you sound?

The irony is youre a part of the problem youre complaining about and you don't even realise it.

UppGRAYxDD

OP is completely correct. I love running Storm Knight's Plate( even after the dmg nerf) , Thunderbug, Winterborn, and Overwhelming Surge in different combinations on my magplar. It actually counters alot of the nonsense happening in BGs or no CP campaigns atm. They should just increase the cooldown on Viper and Selenes to 6 seconds and leave it alone. Right now 4 seconds is just too short and it allows a very low amount of counter play.

Hankrabbit

Valencer wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Players expectations and assumption that other players should adhere to what they think is the correct way to play a game is, was and always will be the core "problem" with MMO's.

Proc set builds can be countered, if you are unwilling to do a build to counter it the entirety of the community and the sets should not be made to adhere to your shortcomings.

Sadly though, MMO companies care more about your money then they do about the impact of their coddling of you in their game.

Congratulations, youre the problem.

That's cute. Im guessing you're either a procblade or completely clueless.

The counter to instantly getting 10k health shaved off by viper + selene/velidreth/tremorscale is... what exactly?

Higher health, higher mitigation. Are you clueless? Wasnt that obvious?

Im guessing youre one of those snow flakes that runs around and wants to be able to kill others but doesnt like it when your killed. Of course ITS NEVER YOU, its ALWAYS the other player or the sets he is using. Youre also probably one of those players who will whine on an mmo forum because something isnt working the way you think it should.

There are many different types of people in life, some go through assuming that if there is a problem its up to someone else to fix it. There are others who, with the same issue, solve the problem.

BTW youre not cute, youre ugly and a shinning representation of whats wrong with MMO games post 2010. Companies cater to players like you, and games get watered down and simplistic. Im betting years ago you were one of the people who whined about boss mechanics and as a result dev put A BIG RED CIRCLE on the ground, fixing your problem for you.

LOL

Mate, Ive been playing a procblade for the past few days and it's miles ahead of any other build Ive ever played or am playing right now. Stop trying to fool everyone with your nonsense.

The problem with you and your big mouth is you don't understand that it's exactly the sets and gear options like this garbage that waters the game down and makes it simplistic. The gear you equip is doing 10k instant burst damage for you on a damn light attack or ransack and borderline killing people for you, and that's not dumbed down and simplistic compared to having to combo actual abilities for doing proper burst damage?

Here you are trying to argue that someone who's against this is in fact the one trying to get the devs to water the game down and make it even more simplistic. Do you realise how stupid you sound?

Seriously, you sir are talking garbage. Wich proc-set gives you 10k insta burst in pvp? Please tell me. If a procblade is the best build you ever played, your builds are just not that good. Stacking 3 Proc sets maybe kill the fools in PvP, but the good players will laugh about you and kill you easy. Procs in No-Cp are strong, but there are not the reason why you lose a fight.

UppGRAYxDD

AdicusDio wrote: »

Back when CoD 3 was around, they had pre-made classes. Game was actually pretty fun. If PvP is such an issue with ESO because 4k damage wipes you, maybe they just need to force pre-made classes unto everyone so it's entirely balanced. Everyone gets the same blanket-generic stats, generic damage, defense, and healing, etc. so it's more akin to an actual army squad.....

I actually have been saying the same thing. Just make a campaign or BG mode that only allows preloaded characters, this would not only be a nice change up for current players, but would also give ESO an opportunity to become a competitive MLG game.

Valencer

Hankrabbit wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Players expectations and assumption that other players should adhere to what they think is the correct way to play a game is, was and always will be the core "problem" with MMO's.

Proc set builds can be countered, if you are unwilling to do a build to counter it the entirety of the community and the sets should not be made to adhere to your shortcomings.

Sadly though, MMO companies care more about your money then they do about the impact of their coddling of you in their game.

Congratulations, youre the problem.

That's cute. Im guessing you're either a procblade or completely clueless.

The counter to instantly getting 10k health shaved off by viper + selene/velidreth/tremorscale is... what exactly?

Higher health, higher mitigation. Are you clueless? Wasnt that obvious?

Im guessing youre one of those snow flakes that runs around and wants to be able to kill others but doesnt like it when your killed. Of course ITS NEVER YOU, its ALWAYS the other player or the sets he is using. Youre also probably one of those players who will whine on an mmo forum because something isnt working the way you think it should.

There are many different types of people in life, some go through assuming that if there is a problem its up to someone else to fix it. There are others who, with the same issue, solve the problem.

BTW youre not cute, youre ugly and a shinning representation of whats wrong with MMO games post 2010. Companies cater to players like you, and games get watered down and simplistic. Im betting years ago you were one of the people who whined about boss mechanics and as a result dev put A BIG RED CIRCLE on the ground, fixing your problem for you.

LOL

Mate, Ive been playing a procblade for the past few days and it's miles ahead of any other build Ive ever played or am playing right now. Stop trying to fool everyone with your nonsense.

The problem with you and your big mouth is you don't understand that it's exactly the sets and gear options like this garbage that waters the game down and makes it simplistic. The gear you equip is doing 10k instant burst damage for you on a damn light attack or ransack and borderline killing people for you, and that's not dumbed down and simplistic compared to having to combo actual abilities for doing proper burst damage?

Here you are trying to argue that someone who's against this is in fact the one trying to get the devs to water the game down and make it even more simplistic. Do you realise how stupid you sound?

Seriously, you sir are talking garbage. Wich proc-set gives you 10k insta burst in pvp? Please tell me. If a procblade is the best build you ever played, your builds are just not that good. Stacking 3 Proc sets maybe kill the fools in PvP, but the good players will laugh about you and kill you easy. Procs in No-Cp are strong, but there are not the reason why you lose a fight.

Viper stacked together with Velidreth/Selene/Tremorscale.

Viper typically hits for 3k+ after battle spirit and armour mitigation. Velidreth and Selene easily hit for 6k+. Tremorscale hits slightly less than velidreth and selene, but is AoE and puts a really nasty snare on your targets so you don't even have to worry about snaring them yourself anymore.

Brutusmax1mus

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

>So destro users spamming Crushing Shock with red mountain (stamina set) is balanced to you?
>I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.
>Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong.
>Skoria is also especially strong. Fire damage, unavoidable and an AoE component. Its just not that prominent due to NB cloak suppression and templar purge countering dots. If more players played dks/sorcs in pvp like they do heal bots and nightblades Skoria would be getting QQ.

The only set you mentioned in this whole thread that is under-performing is Nerien'eth. I'd argue all the fire damage based monster sets are just as strong as the other proc sets. Im not saying the ones you have mentioned are not over-performing though.

This thread is also very stamina biased.

@GreenSoup2HoT
The Difference between Skoria for example and Selene is, that Skoria is tied to Dots, to somewhat of a condition, Selene to any damage with a higher procchance and let's not even talk about Viper. Also Selene hits way harder, 1p Bonus is a "Damage" Bonus etc. Not biased against Stamina, just want Balance.
Also, I agree that Red Mountain is overpowered on Sorc but it is somewhat balanced on a Stamina Character.

Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong

Yep, very strong but not brokenly OP most likely because its a DoT and not 6K Burst.

I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.

It is absolutely useless, ticks for 500 Damage. Used to be somewhat good, sad it is not anymore

Selene is also dodgeable and procs off melee only..

Skoria auto hits and is aoe

You can stack multiple dots while you can only do a certain amount of melee attacks in a second.

Max hp is just as good as max stam.

Red mountain isn't balanced at all. Even on a stam character.

You can do 3 Melee attacks a second, 2 when using a 2H without gimping yourself, either 45% or 30% procchance, lol

Light skill bash?

You can have 5-8 dots ticking a second easy. You don't even need to be attacking for it to proc.

Please name me 8 or even just 5 casual dots you would put up when going offensive (Volatile Damage Return does not count lol)
Anyways, don't name them, no need to derail this thread.

Edit: you not gonna bash when using a 2H, hence why I said without gimping yourself.

So 30%? Assuming then don't dodge or dodge the actual proc?

Oh i'll name them.

Volatile
Embers
Talons
Breath
2x dots from poison
Burning
Inhale counts as a dot
Bsw burning proc
Meteor/ destro ult/ standard

Anymore?

The point is magicka proc sets are just as broke as the stam ones, but yeah stam has more.

That's not how you determine proc percentages. If you flip a coin twice you don't get a 100% chance for heads and tails.

Skoria was designed with dks in mind. Also, most of those dots don't occur every second. Stacked instant damage procs are the issue, not 1 monster set.

Viper is fine, RM is fine, skoria is fine, selene, veli, OS etc are fine. BY THEMSELVES. They are BROKEN when stacked together so they occur simultaneously.

SnubbS

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Players expectations and assumption that other players should adhere to what they think is the correct way to play a game is, was and always will be the core "problem" with MMO's.

Proc set builds can be countered, if you are unwilling to do a build to counter it the entirety of the community and the sets should not be made to adhere to your shortcomings.

Sadly though, MMO companies care more about your money then they do about the impact of their coddling of you in their game.

Congratulations, youre the problem.

That's cute. Im guessing you're either a procblade or completely clueless.

The counter to instantly getting 10k health shaved off by viper + selene/velidreth/tremorscale is... what exactly?

10K? Bruh you must be tanky as ***.

Also...Prismatic Glyphs, Master Sorc/Magplar..heck any Mag Vamp toon slayer... 2H Axe, Crit Rush and Prismatic Goes off and crits for 10K, Viper+Veli+RM all at once = Instagibbed, If not = Very very very close to death that an Executioner will most certainly end you.

I don't find Tumorscale an issue tbh, you can see it a mile off from anyone coming at you with a S&B and trying to get all stabby on you, But instant death like the above is ***, cannot be blocked or countered at all unless already in mist form or if shuffle procs, but at this point I've probably been hit with a resource draining poison and they are already steaming into my face Axe in the air n all.

Prismatic doesn't even crit for 4k let alone 10k. Viper is 4k, RM is 3.5k (on a stambuild) veli is like 6k. Also, if you're still using Prismatic over Oblivion—lol—it's not 2016 anymore. If your build doesn't have 22k+ health in no-cp, you're asking to die.

This is of course glossing over the fact that you can't run all three at once and have the ability to crit rush. You should also be blocking anytime you see a crit rush coming at you—of course you're in camp "OMG PROC SETS THERE'S LITERALLY NOTHING YOU CAN DO AGAINST THEM OMG" so doubtful you've tried anything of the sort.

The most cancerous thing in the game right now is 5x Viper 5x RM 2x Selene D/W using Flurry. Surprised no one has mentioned this, but I'm sure it will make the rounds.

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

AdicusDio wrote: »

Back when CoD 3 was around, they had pre-made classes. Game was actually pretty fun. If PvP is such an issue with ESO because 4k damage wipes you, maybe they just need to force pre-made classes unto everyone so it's entirely balanced. Everyone gets the same blanket-generic stats, generic damage, defense, and healing, etc. so it's more akin to an actual army squad.....

I actually have been saying the same thing. Just make a campaign or BG mode that only allows preloaded characters, this would not only be a nice change up for current players, but would also give ESO an opportunity to become a competitive MLG game.

I play a game competitively at that level—ESO is the least competitive game I've ever seen. Candy Crush would be a more entertaining/worthwhile game for MLG to pick up than ESO.

Valencer

If you're blocking on a build that's not heavy armour s&b every single time someone does a crit rush on you I imagine you're not going to have a good time sustaining your stamina in open world PvP.

SnubbS

Valencer wrote: »

If you're blocking on a build that's not heavy armour s&b every single time someone does a crit rush on you I imagine you're not going to have a good time sustaining your stamina in open world PvP.

Everyone has 14k~ Stam and immovables. Blocking one attack (their opener) isn't going to drain your stam.

Brutusmax1mus

SnubbS wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

If you're blocking on a build that's not heavy armour s&b every single time someone does a crit rush on you I imagine you're not going to have a good time sustaining your stamina in open world PvP.

Everyone has 14k~ Stam and immovables. Blocking one attack (their opener) isn't going to drain your stam.

1 block takes away 1800 stamina with the increased rate and multiple sources of damage. That's 8 seconds of regen if you're running tristat to 14k stamina just to make up 1 block.

Qbiken

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

If you're blocking on a build that's not heavy armour s&b every single time someone does a crit rush on you I imagine you're not going to have a good time sustaining your stamina in open world PvP.

Everyone has 14k~ Stam and immovables. Blocking one attack (their opener) isn't going to drain your stam.

1 block takes away 1800 stamina with the increased rate and multiple sources of damage. That's 8 seconds of regen if you're running tristat to 14k stamina just to make up 1 block.

The base cost of blocking is 2160 if I´m not completely wrong

Joy_Division

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

>So destro users spamming Crushing Shock with red mountain (stamina set) is balanced to you?
>I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.
>Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong.
>Skoria is also especially strong. Fire damage, unavoidable and an AoE component. Its just not that prominent due to NB cloak suppression and templar purge countering dots. If more players played dks/sorcs in pvp like they do heal bots and nightblades Skoria would be getting QQ.

The only set you mentioned in this whole thread that is under-performing is Nerien'eth. I'd argue all the fire damage based monster sets are just as strong as the other proc sets. Im not saying the ones you have mentioned are not over-performing though.

This thread is also very stamina biased.

@GreenSoup2HoT
The Difference between Skoria for example and Selene is, that Skoria is tied to Dots, to somewhat of a condition, Selene to any damage with a higher procchance and let's not even talk about Viper. Also Selene hits way harder, 1p Bonus is a "Damage" Bonus etc. Not biased against Stamina, just want Balance.
Also, I agree that Red Mountain is overpowered on Sorc but it is somewhat balanced on a Stamina Character.

Grotharr deals a ton of damage. Its just not burst but provides AoE and reveal utility. Very strong

Yep, very strong but not brokenly OP most likely because its a DoT and not 6K Burst.

I see players tearing it up Overwhelming Surge still.... especially magblades.

It is absolutely useless, ticks for 500 Damage. Used to be somewhat good, sad it is not anymore

Selene is also dodgeable and procs off melee only..

Skoria auto hits and is aoe

You can stack multiple dots while you can only do a certain amount of melee attacks in a second.

Max hp is just as good as max stam.

Red mountain isn't balanced at all. Even on a stam character.

You can do 3 Melee attacks a second, 2 when using a 2H without gimping yourself, either 45% or 30% procchance, lol

Light skill bash?

You can have 5-8 dots ticking a second easy. You don't even need to be attacking for it to proc.

Please name me 8 or even just 5 casual dots you would put up when going offensive (Volatile Damage Return does not count lol)
Anyways, don't name them, no need to derail this thread.

Edit: you not gonna bash when using a 2H, hence why I said without gimping yourself.

So 30%? Assuming then don't dodge or dodge the actual proc?

Oh i'll name them.

Volatile
Embers
Talons
Breath
2x dots from poison
Burning
Inhale counts as a dot
Bsw burning proc
Meteor/ destro ult/ standard

Anymore?

The point is magicka proc sets are just as broke as the stam ones, but yeah stam has more.

That's not how you determine proc percentages. If you flip a coin twice you don't get a 100% chance for heads and tails.

Skoria was designed with dks in mind. Also, most of those dots don't occur every second. Stacked instant damage procs are the issue, not 1 monster set.

Viper is fine, RM is fine, skoria is fine, selene, veli, OS etc are fine. BY THEMSELVES. They are BROKEN when stacked together so they occur simultaneously.

One of the few people in this thread using their brains.

Most of the other reforms people are proposing will not sole the problem.

• If you turn proc into DoTs, it would favor templars way too much over the other classes
• If you scale of weapon/spell damage, that does not prevent medium armed gank procblades from doing an insane amount of invisible and instant multiple burst damage.
• If you put in a global cooldown, that's the most promising of the "band aid" solutions, but you're adding stress to the server and introducing even more RNG to fights.

One proc set is fine, and allows for a wider variety of effective builds. Skoria is fine: The game tells both players when the damage is coming. Even Slenes is fine: only procs on melee and I can get out of the way. The only Monster proc set that needs adjustment is Tremorescale because it offers 2 very powerful effect: a huge snare and burst damage (also it being on demand is a dubious concept).

ZoS needs to make it so the invisible and instant burst damage from 5 piece gear bonuses do not exist because it's these that are abusable since they stack with each other and a monster set. That means Viper, Red Mountain, Poisonous Serpent, etc.

Brutusmax1mus

Qbiken wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

If you're blocking on a build that's not heavy armour s&b every single time someone does a crit rush on you I imagine you're not going to have a good time sustaining your stamina in open world PvP.

Everyone has 14k~ Stam and immovables. Blocking one attack (their opener) isn't going to drain your stam.

1 block takes away 1800 stamina with the increased rate and multiple sources of damage. That's 8 seconds of regen if you're running tristat to 14k stamina just to make up 1 block.

The base cost of blocking is 2160 if I´m not completely wrong

You're right my b. So 10 seconds of regen for 1 block. God forbid 2 things attack you spread out over 1 second....20 seconds to regen 1 attack. Ridiculous.

Jewels and amber or bust imo

grim_tactics

Until they fix it I'm all about Selene, Viper, Red Mountain in BGs. Triple Proctard. Having all 3 proc at 1 time - priceless.

Ch4mpTW

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Players expectations and assumption that other players should adhere to what they think is the correct way to play a game is, was and always will be the core "problem" with MMO's.

Proc set builds can be countered, if you are unwilling to do a build to counter it the entirety of the community and the sets should not be made to adhere to your shortcomings.

Sadly though, MMO companies care more about your money then they do about the impact of their coddling of you in their game.

Congratulations, youre the problem.

That's cute. Im guessing you're either a procblade or completely clueless.

The counter to instantly getting 10k health shaved off by viper + selene/velidreth/tremorscale is... what exactly?

10K? Bruh you must be tanky as ***.

Also...Prismatic Glyphs, Master Sorc/Magplar..heck any Mag Vamp toon slayer... 2H Axe, Crit Rush and Prismatic Goes off and crits for 10K, Viper+Veli+RM all at once = Instagibbed, If not = Very very very close to death that an Executioner will most certainly end you.

I don't find Tumorscale an issue tbh, you can see it a mile off from anyone coming at you with a S&B and trying to get all stabby on you, But instant death like the above is ***, cannot be blocked or countered at all unless already in mist form or if shuffle procs, but at this point I've probably been hit with a resource draining poison and they are already steaming into my face Axe in the air n all.

Oh man; hot damn. @DRXHarbinger with the bruh in his vocabulary. Instant awesome from me. I also agree with your post entirely.

RABIDxWOLVERINE

For all the crying I see maybe they should just remove combat from the game... If they fix an issue half the community is ok with it the other half cries and vice versa.

The problem will persist until they separate PVP combat from PVE combat. Just last patch everyone said "oh stam builds are dead" this patch its "stam builds are too good". Heres a revolutionary idea, DONT CRY AND WHINE, ADAPT!

DRXHarbinger

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Players expectations and assumption that other players should adhere to what they think is the correct way to play a game is, was and always will be the core "problem" with MMO's.

Proc set builds can be countered, if you are unwilling to do a build to counter it the entirety of the community and the sets should not be made to adhere to your shortcomings.

Sadly though, MMO companies care more about your money then they do about the impact of their coddling of you in their game.

Congratulations, youre the problem.

That's cute. Im guessing you're either a procblade or completely clueless.

The counter to instantly getting 10k health shaved off by viper + selene/velidreth/tremorscale is... what exactly?

10K? Bruh you must be tanky as ***.

Also...Prismatic Glyphs, Master Sorc/Magplar..heck any Mag Vamp toon slayer... 2H Axe, Crit Rush and Prismatic Goes off and crits for 10K, Viper+Veli+RM all at once = Instagibbed, If not = Very very very close to death that an Executioner will most certainly end you.

I don't find Tumorscale an issue tbh, you can see it a mile off from anyone coming at you with a S&B and trying to get all stabby on you, But instant death like the above is ***, cannot be blocked or countered at all unless already in mist form or if shuffle procs, but at this point I've probably been hit with a resource draining poison and they are already steaming into my face Axe in the air n all.

Oh man; hot damn. @DRXHarbinger with the bruh in his vocabulary. Instant awesome from me. I also agree with your post entirely.

Bruh it's just *** happened again. Crit rush+dbos+viper+selene+reverse slice+Oblivion instagibbing. I get the chances of pulling this off are somewhat slim but ffs what can you honestly do with this combo. 3 button hyper combo or what. 35k health is going to be a minimum requirement now. Actually screw that. Trollplar loading.

ecru

effortless damage has no place in a pvp setting. damage should come from actively using abilities in a specific way, not using any ability in any way. if the devs are interested in player retention in bg's, they will nerf these sets.

Miruku

Procs are perfectly fine JK.

Basically IMHO they need to turn alot of them into DOT's but make them decently hard hitting dots to allow them to keep their appeal, procs are a great way for good players to excel even more and a way for bad players to get a edge.

This is a double edged sword, it creates a fun environment for the casuals and allows them to have fun but also makes it hard on soloers and makes 1VX pretty hard, if you have a few procplebs running around. The good players who use procs become even harder hitting and even more of a pain than before. Procs take alot of fun out of the game where item sets become "skill" and what defines a build and not a players personal, skill and understanding of their class and how to play it. I personally am not a fan of this IMHO procs need to changed into either a DOT of some sort of a vast majority of them at-least mainly those being Viper and red mountain.

1 Proc set by itself isn't exactly a pain well viper by itself is already very strong but you throw 1 or 2 more procs in their and it becomes a really unbalanced build with insane damage and stupid XV1 potential taking fun out of cyrodiil(if any remains) I am aware this has been suggested a lot but procs need to be changed into dots at-least the main culprits aka the previously mentioned Red Mountain and Viper.

(Looking at this from a PVPers POV)

Selene: Selene hits hard has a low cool down and can proc from basically anything in a stamina builds arsenal, making it extremely strong it hits hard and fast making one of the strongest undaunted proc sets for stam if not the strongest based on playstyle.
Velidreth: Veli was the first real undaunted proc stam set we saw and god was is terrifyingly amazing but it can be hard to aim and hit and is only really viable if you can really slow your opponent or make sure it procs with your burst (AKA stamblade)
Valkyn: Valkyn is strong on basically anything that isnt a magicka sorc running a DOT build it hits hard and fast and has a really strong tooltip and rips vamps

I don't know what could be done to these sets to make them balanced either give them a global cooldown inline with that of the none undaunted proc sets (Viper RM etc) So that you can only really rely off one proc and not get 70% of your damage from your sets and make it so skill matters again.

A global cooldown on procs would make it so you would can only rely off 1 proc set for your damage a lazy fix yes but it might be what we need if they tone down their damage slightly. Doing this would still make procs half viable (I am not calling for them to viable trust me I despise procs and how they have trivialised Cyrodiil) But they do have a place in the game somewhere I am aware procs are a part of PVE aswell but I am too lazy to write about that. But IMHO give procs a global cooldown along with a dmg reduction of some sort (heck even reduce their scaling with CP for CP PVP if needed) Or turn the majority of the main ones into a DOT of some sort.

-Miruku

Zardayne

AdicusDio wrote: »

Back when CoD 3 was around, they had pre-made classes. Game was actually pretty fun. If PvP is such an issue with ESO because 4k damage wipes you, maybe they just need to force pre-made classes unto everyone so it's entirely balanced. Everyone gets the same blanket-generic stats, generic damage, defense, and healing, etc. so it's more akin to an actual army squad.....

Unfortunately it's the only way to find any sort of balance in competitive games. From the dawn of MMO time people who engage in PVP love to complain about balance, and rightfully so, but the changes made usually screw up the larger player base which is the PVE'ers. I've yet to play a PVP MMO that could balance that aspect of their game. That goes for DAOC, Warhammer, Age of Conan, etc. I believe some how they need to separate the two for both aspects of the game to be balanced appropriately. How that is supposed to happen is beyond me.

SnubbS

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

If you're blocking on a build that's not heavy armour s&b every single time someone does a crit rush on you I imagine you're not going to have a good time sustaining your stamina in open world PvP.

Everyone has 14k~ Stam and immovables. Blocking one attack (their opener) isn't going to drain your stam.

1 block takes away 1800 stamina with the increased rate and multiple sources of damage. That's 8 seconds of regen if you're running tristat to 14k stamina just to make up 1 block.

The base cost of blocking is 2160 if I´m not completely wrong

You're right my b. So 10 seconds of regen for 1 block. God forbid 2 things attack you spread out over 1 second....20 seconds to regen 1 attack. Ridiculous.

Jewels and amber or bust imo

2160 off your stampool is really nothing. Like I said, immovables, 14k stam etc. I usually block every crit rush (If I'm at or around 80%) and I genuinely never feel it tax my stam pool to the point of "I couldnt cc break because I spent all my stam blocking that attack". That's also on a bomblade w/o anything helping my stam management.

I wouldn't use Jewels on a magbuild, but Amberplasm is probably the best set to run as a open world non-dk magbuild.

Edit: I'm not saying this is the end all be all way to counter proc builds. I get one-shot ganked by proc blades all the time on my bomblade—but I'm just saying like... if you're in a open field with full resources, and a stamsorc/stamdk just crit rushes and one shots you w/o ult (like was described) you're the issue.

Zardayne

ecru wrote: »

effortless damage has no place in a pvp setting. damage should come from actively using abilities in a specific way, not using any ability in any way. if the devs are interested in player retention in bg's, they will nerf these sets.

I don't see much of a problem here when it's accessible to all. I could say the same thing about effortless stamina regen that gives Redguard, & Bosmer an edge or Khajit Crit or Shuffle. Of course I don't believe they should be removed from PVP or PVE either. Those racials aren't readily accessible if you're not already that race unless you drop $30 for the change.

I agree the majority of your damage should come from active skills though and if you have a proc hitting for 10k then yea, that needs to be toned down. A viper hitting for 4-5k every 4 seconds isn't a game breaker IMO especially with all of the over healing, dodging,shielding, and frag proccing going on in this game.

Izaki

Koensol wrote: »

The biggest problem with viper is that there is no telegraped animation. No, it just hits, every 4 seconds. It's so cheesy it's unreal. In a duel it is absolute cancer when paired with selene. When you cc a target and get lucky, its viper+selene proc+execute = dead. Totally *** rng combat. It's driving me nuts. I generally don't like the burst procs. As dots they would be fine imo.

People on PC duel with proc sets? Damn...

Alucardo

Skoria procs frequently on DoT builds, hits like a truck, can't be dodged, obviously does extra damage to vampires, can still proc when the wearer is dead and kill you. But yeah, it's not a problem at all.